Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[SportingCP96]

What? We most definitely could beat the best. We were the toughest opponent to the best national team of the century in Spain. They beat us through an offside goal in 2010 and on penalties in 2012.

While having Postiga/Almeida as centreforwards and being generally below average everywhere else. Ballack knocked us out in 2008 after a blatant foul that went uncalled but again, we were every bit as good as them that day.

We outplayed France in 2006 in the 2006 WC semifinals with Ronaldo being our best player by a mile.

We could beat the best and certainly did so multiple times. 20 years from now when Argentina are still the top team they’ve always been while we revert back to the mediocrity of the pre-golden generation era by regularly missing tournaments and doing worse than average European countries people will understand just how much Ronaldo shifted expectations about our football.

Before Messi, Argentina were two-time WC winners and 14 time Copa America winners. Before Ronaldo, we had never even played a final. We’ve reached the knockouts of tournaments 7 times with Ronaldo, 3 times in our entire history before him. We’ve made it to 8 tournaments with Ronaldo, 5 in our entire history before Ronaldo. Check how many teams have done better than us since Ronaldo’s been playing and how many did better than us before Ronaldo. No one in football history has had the impact he’s had for us, but now apparently people want him to the same with Portugal as what R9 or Pele did with Brazil or Maradona with Argentina as if either of them could have ever got even close to doing what Ronaldo did across 16 years if they were born Portuguese in this era.

Jesus Christ FECKING MURDER with words.

Portugal was never a country who competed for the top trophies. Until a certain CR7 came along and made us the most competitive we have ever been...

Argentina and Brazil will continue to win after Messi and Brazil after Neymar just as they did before them. Portugal..Will probably drop off again a bit though we do actually have a cent crop coming.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Ronaldo’s biggest achievements come from his club career because he’s played with better teams from club than country, not because he’s played any worse.



No one said it did. Lots of grey area between ‘poor’ and ‘Maradona 86’ though.

If we won the penalty shootout vs Spain in 2012 and lost vs Poland in 2016 the narrative would completely change.

We didn’t win it with him having an insanely good tournament but he’s consistently raised our level for what can possibly be over 20 years by the time he retires and we had a decent chance every time. Which other all time great has been as important for their country as Ronaldo has been to Portugal for such a long amount of time?



Isn’t that true for literally everyone?

He won a lot more than anyone ever expected him to.



Of course it counts for something. Come on... or is Cruyff’s international career mediocre?



The metrics are the same, the expectations aren’t. I don’t believe Argentina getting to a Copa America final is any sort of big achievement at all or that it can in any way be compared to us reaching a Euros final. Especially so when it’s pretty much turned into a yearly tournament.

Portugal in the Ronaldo era have been a massive success with the people and media showing incredible support and gratitude. Argentina in the Messi era have been the complete opposite. Of course it can’t be judged the same when in relation to the expectations of the countries for their teams, one has succeeded and the other failed.

Him raising your level I agree with completely. So fair point there.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Some of his best performances ever came in international football and at tournaments.

2004 vs Rússia, 2004 vs Holland, 2006 vs France, 2008 vs Czech Republic, 2010 vs North Korea, 2012 vs Holland, 2012 vs Czech Republic, 2016 vs Hungary, 2016 vs Wales, 2018 vs Spain, 2019 vs Switzerland... that’s without qualification where he took us to tournaments with incredible performances several times. 2013 playoff vs Sweden and 2011 playoff vs Bosnia being the obvious two. I guess if he had all those performances in one tournament and then had 7 mediocre tournaments or didn’t even get called up for those he’d be a true international legend while giving us a much smaller chance of success rather than consistently putting us up there with the best for what will be 2 decades when he decides to retire.

I bow to your rainmancrush memory of Ronaldo's career brother - I don't even have that sort of encyclopaedic knowledge of my own life but I will say that Ronaldo's consistency/longevity is legendary, while I disagree with that his international performances on an individual level are that much better than Messi's, even if he has got a Euro to his name.

 

[Peyroteo]

I bow to your rainmancrush memory of Ronaldo's career brother - I don't even have that sort of encyclopaedic knowledge of my own life but I will say that Ronaldo's consistency/longevity is legendary, while I disagree with that his international performances on an individual level are that much better than Messi's, even if he has got a Euro to his name.

I’ve seen all Portugal matches in tournaments at least twice, even from 1966. There was a series on Portuguese TV. I couldn’t tell you what I had for dinner yesterday but I could pretty much tell you all goalscorers and minutes of the goals in those matches.

 

[Gehrman]

Messi and Ronaldo have scored almost excatly the same amount of goals for their NT's'.

 

[Daysleeper]

I thought his hattrick vs Spain in the last WC was pretty good TBH.

That involved a De Gea blunder, a dubious foul, and the worst Spain side of the last 15 years.

 

[Gehrman]

That involved a De Gea blunder, a dubious foul, and the worst Spain side of the last 15 years.

It was a good hattrick though.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Portugal in the Ronaldo era have been a massive success with the people and media showing incredible support and gratitude. Argentina in the Messi era have been the complete opposite. Of course it can’t be judged the same when in relation to the expectations of the countries for their teams, one has succeeded and the other failed.

This is indeed a very good point.

 

[Bruno Marques]

That involved a De Gea blunder, a dubious foul, and the worst Spain side of the last 15 years.

When your objective is only to undermine this is the type o post you should do. The negotiation is so great. hahahah

 

[Cal?]

so did Argentina. their last copa win was almost 30 years ago. they also didn't progress past the WC quarters for 30 years. both of them clearly improved their national teams, but never to the point they could beat the best.

It’s not remotely comparable, Ronaldo led Portugal to their first and second ever international trophy.

 

[Cal?]

It takes luck to win the thing, it doesn't take luck to perform there.



Funny how you go from laughing at the idea of Messi being the best player in the CL to saying he was one of the best in about 8 seconds. Name 5 players who were better than him in the CL this season and prepare for everyone to laugh at you without having to immediately backpedal.

I laughed at the idea that Messi was COMFORTABLY the best player in the CL, spot the difference

 

[Cal?]

Portugal at the Euros... Ronaldo made debut in 2003
1996 - 5th
2000 - 3rd
2004 - 2nd
2008 - 7th
2012 - 3rd
2016 - 1st

Portugal at the WC... Ronaldo made debut in 2003
1998 - did not qualify
2002 - 21st
2006 - 4th
2010 - 11th
2014 - 18th
2018 - 13th

Argentina at the Copa America .. Messi made debut in 2005
1997 - 6th
1998 - 8th
2004 - 2nd
2007 - 2nd
2011 - 7th
2015 - 2nd
2016 - 2nd

Argentina at the WC .. Messi made debut in 2005
1998 - 6th
2002 - 18th
2006 - 6th
2010 - 5th
2014 - 2nd
2018 - 16th

Never mind the fact the Euro has many more teams

 

[Cal?]

It takes some real mental gymnastics to try and act as if Ronaldo has had some legendary international career. Never have I watched him at an international tournament and thought this guy is one of the best of all time.

You probably watch him score a hat trick and think, anyone could have done that

Ronaldo is the all time top international scorer (ex Asia)

 

[Bole Top]

It’s not remotely comparable, Ronaldo led Portugal to their first and second ever international trophy.

of course it's comparable since your only point was that Portugal improved with him in team. well, Argentina did too with Messi. they were literally nowhere ever since Maradona days, always losing in quarters or not even going past the group stage for about 30 years in both Copa and WC. and they ALWAYS had amazing attackers, even better than the ones they had in recent times. yet strangely, they never got to so many finals in such a short period like they did during Messi's peak years. people who honestly think that's going to continue without Messi are deluded or simply - haters.

 

[Cal?]

My original post was that both Messi and Ronaldo have been relatively poor for their national team. Relatively being the key word. Surely you can admit that Ronaldo's greatest achievements are from his club career? He didn't play the final in 2016 and in any other tournament in history they would've been out at the group stages. That's hardly rivalling Maradonna in 86. No one's saying Ronaldo has been shite for Portugal (Admittedly I did a bit to wind you up in my last post), but he hasn't won as much as he could have. and it's great that he's had many good games, but without cups that doesn't count for anything. Or do you think Messi has had a great international career for making so many finals and being so close to winning trophies and even being voted player of the tournament in 2014? No, you don't think so, so why change the metrics for Ronaldo.

And he is being judged as a Portugal player, because no player in Brazil or Germany would ever be considered a national team legend without winning any honors as Ronaldo apparently was from 2006-2016. They would be considered failures. Argentina is also a giant in international football, but currently nowhere near a top 5 side. Better than Portugal perhaps, but that's also why I think Messi's career has been worse than Ronaldo's. That's the funny thing, I actually agree that Ronaldo is more successful than Messi, but anything other than absolute acknowledgement is met with a barrage of hyperbolic outrage and

Also, yes, I'm also biased, everyone's biased, difference is that I actually realize and admit to it. If only you lot in here would do the same the conversation wouldn't be so fecking hostile and laden with endles statsheet to prove the objectivity of posts.

There we go again with the Portugal would have been put in the Euro point again.

The rules were changed YEARS before the Euro was played, Portugal did what they needed to make the QF. No one knows if the rules were different if they’d have won the final group game if they needed to.

It’s like saying the CL winners in the last 2 decades didn’t deserve it because most of them wouldn’t have qualified in the old days.

 

[Cal?]

Messi and Ronaldo have scored almost excatly the same amount of goals for their NT's'.

Ronaldo has 88, Messi has 68. Almost the same

 

[Cal?]

That involved a De Gea blunder, a dubious foul, and the worst Spain side of the last 15 years.

Messi’s CL also involves a De Gea blunder and the worst United side in years

Your point is??

 

[Cal?]

of course it's comparable since your only point was that Portugal improved with him in team. well, Argentina did too with Messi. they were literally nowhere ever since Maradona days, always losing in quarters or not even going past the group stage for about 30 years in both Copa and WC. and they ALWAYS had amazing attackers, even better than the ones they had in recent times. yet strangely, they never got to so many finals in such a short period like they did during Messi's peak years. people who honestly think that's going to continue without Messi are deluded or simply - haters.

That may have a lot to do with the Copa wasn’t played anywhere as often as 4 in 6 years before.

 

[Bole Top]

That may have a lot to do with the Copa wasn’t played anywhere as often as 4 in 6 years before.

but not at all with the simple fact that they weren't good enough to win something in 30 years?

 

[Daysleeper]

Messi’s CL also involves a De Gea blunder and the worst United side in years

Your point is??

This united side was still better than any of the other united sides outside of mourinho in recent years

Better than LVG, better than moyes

They were bad in the final month or two

 

[Cal?]

but not at all with the simple fact that they weren't good enough to win something in 30 years?

They still haven’t won anything.

 

[Cal?]

This united side was still better than any of the other united sides outside of mourinho in recent years

Better than LVG, better than moyes

They were bad in the final month or two

Not true, United finished 6th, worse than any LVG season and only matched by the hapless Moyes

 

[Bole Top]

They still haven’t won anything.

nope, but they improved immensely which was the main point in your original post.

 

[Cal?]

nope, but they improved immensely which was the main point in your original post.

After the Maradona inspired WC in 1986, they have finished 2nd, R16, QF, Group until 2006.

Messi was kind of involved in 2006 but was dropped by his manager.

Since 2010, it was QF, 2nd and R16

So basically improving immensely means they didn’t do what many teams did in 2002 and lost the plot completely??

 

[Bole Top]

After the Maradona inspired WC in 1986, they have finished 2nd, R16, QF, Group until 2006.

Messi was kind of involved in 2006 but was dropped by his manager.

Since 2010, it was QF, 2nd and R16

So basically improving immensely means they didn’t do what many teams did in 2002 and lost the plot completely??

trying too hard, dude. if you're trophyless for 30 years in both competitions and you're suddenly playing 4 or 5 finals during the peak years of one player, yes, it's a massive improvement. if you're trophyless for 30 years and people still rate you as world class/tier 1 team despite beng nowhere for so long just because you have certain player, that's actually the biggest compliment you can give to Messi and the funny thing is, you aren't even aware of that.

 

[Pocho]

After the Maradona inspired WC in 1986, they have finished 2nd, R16, QF, Group until 2006.

Messi was kind of involved in 2006 but was dropped by his manager.

Since 2010, it was QF, 2nd and R16

So basically improving immensely means they didn’t do what many teams did in 2002 and lost the plot completely??

Maradona was 29 years old when Argentina finished second, he said after Maradona.

 

[Daysleeper]

trying too hard, dude. if you're trophyless for 30 years in both competitions and you're suddenly playing 4 or 5 finals during the peak years of one player, yes, it's a massive improvement. if you're trophyless for 30 years and people still rate you as world class/tier 1 team despite beng nowhere for so long just because you have certain player, that's actually the biggest compliment you can give to Messi and the funny thing is, you aren't even aware of that.

Absolutely spot on

 

[Hughes35]

There is not really a lot of evidence of that though. Ronaldo has played for the top teams in every league United, Real and Juventus. You can only go by the fact that he still scores goals for portugal but that its it. I don't think Messi in 2012 would be the beast who scored over 90 goals without being in that Barca team, but put 24 old Messi in most teams as a forward I still think he'd rip plenty of teams apart, because of his insane dribbling ability and long range shooting. He's more than capaple than creating chances for himself, but it's true you can't really pump crosses into because he's a midget. It's true that Ronaldo's international record is slilghty better, but Messi is also the all time scorer for Argentina despite not winning a trophy.

Personally I can't fault Messi for not leaving Barcalona. He grew up in the academy for the perfect club for him that favours the technical style that suits him. Since Guardiola they have more or less have become the biggest club in the world thanks in part to the Messi phenomenom. Honestly what club could he join that wouldn't be step down? City is a mercenary club despite being brilliant now, same goes for PSG and Chelsea. United is shit and so is Arsenal. Liverpool have only recently become very good they might not be able to afford him. Bayern might be a thought, but the bundesliga would be a step down. Juventus has Ronaldo now although they could play together which would be mint despite the fact they are old now.

Oh I don't blame him for not leaving. Why would he? He's paid a fortune won / wins stuff and is a hero. he must be very comfortable.

I'm not one of these that likes one of Ronaldo or Messi and slates the other. Messi is a truly brilliant player. I believe they are the two best players ever. Out of the players I've seen in my life they are the best by miles and miles. Ronaldinho and fat Ronaldo had certain seasons where their level was similar but to do it over 15 years or more is unreal.

If I was the Manager right now and somebody offered me a 25 year old Messi or a 25 year old Ronaldo, Ronaldo would just edge it for me that's all. Purely based on the fact he has completely 100% shown that style of play, club, cultures, leagues, Languages, team mates etc do not impact his performances. He would turn up and he would deliver, guaranteed.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Ronaldo has 88, Messi has 68. Almost the same

The other 20 were irrelevant so they don't count.

That's what they would say

 

[Tostao_80]

Oh I don't blame him for not leaving. Why would he? He's paid a fortune won / wins stuff and is a hero. he must be very comfortable.

I'm not one of these that likes one of Ronaldo or Messi and slates the other. Messi is a truly brilliant player. I believe they are the two best players ever. Out of the players I've seen in my life they are the best by miles and miles. Ronaldinho and fat Ronaldo had certain seasons where their level was similar but to do it over 15 years or more is unreal.

If I was the Manager right now and somebody offered me a 25 year old Messi or a 25 year old Ronaldo, Ronaldo would just edge it for me that's all. Purely based on the fact he has completely 100% shown that style of play, club, cultures, leagues, Languages, team mates etc do not impact his performances. He would turn up and he would deliver, guaranteed.

But doesn't it depend on the team and system. For a City or a Barca with the way they play, wouldn't Messi be the better pick. For a less complex and more direct team like Atletico, Cristiano would surely be better as the team needs less solutions to score (Simeone words).
You cant tell me that a 25 year Cristiano would ever do as well as a 25 year old Leo did at Barca.
What about the Spain team of 2008 to 2012, who would flourish more in that team?

 

[Hughes35]

But doesn't it depend on the team and system. For a City or a Barca with the way they play, wouldn't Messi be the better pick. For a less complex and more direct team like Atletico, Cristiano would surely be better as the team needs less solutions to score (Simeone words).
You cant tell me that a 25 year Cristiano would ever do as well as a 25 year old Leo did at Barca.
What about the Spain team of 2008 to 2012, who would flourish more in that team?

That's kind of my point though I think Ronaldo would. I think you put a 25 year old Ronaldo into that Barca or this City team and he'd completely tear it apart. His numbers on both goals and assists would have been nuts (As were Messi's anyway). I believe he is more flexible to systems and environments. We will obviously never know this for sure but his movement is out of this world so in a Barca or a City he would be brilliant but he can also play direct counter attack because of his brain and his physicality.

In the Spain team IMO they would both flourish. Ronaldo would have got more goals though. He'd have smashed them in for fun. Again, lets not also forget just how creative a younger Ronaldo was.

 

[Cal?]

trying too hard, dude. if you're trophyless for 30 years in both competitions and you're suddenly playing 4 or 5 finals during the peak years of one player, yes, it's a massive improvement. if you're trophyless for 30 years and people still rate you as world class/tier 1 team despite beng nowhere for so long just because you have certain player, that's actually the biggest compliment you can give to Messi and the funny thing is, you aren't even aware of that.

In those trophyless years from 1987 onwards, Argentina made the WC final in 1990 and Copa final in 2004 before Messi. They have not bettered those since he started with the national side.

Even if you ignore 1990 (with Maradona) - Messi's record at WC - QF, 2nd, R16 hardly indicate any amazing improvement in fortunes, more an anomaly in 2014 than any sustained success.

 

[Bole Top]

Even if you ignore 1990 (with Maradona) - Messi's record at WC - QF, 2nd, R16 hardly indicate any amazing improvement in fortunes, more an anomaly in 2014 than any sustained success.

it may not be amazing to you since you're hater, but when you're trophyless in both competitions since Maradona glory days or more precisely, since 1993., that string of finals in such short span is good improvement regardless. they've had much better midfielders/strikers/defenders before him yet they did nothing. with Messi they underperformed by going further than those generations. I suppose that's your way of showing how highly you actually rate him

 

[Cal?]

it may not be amazing to you since you're hater, but when you're trophyless in both competitions since Maradona glory days or more precisely, since 1993., that string of finals in such short span is good improvement regardless. they've had much better midfielders/strikers/defenders before him yet they did nothing. with Messi they underperformed by going further than those generations. I suppose that's your way of showing how highly you actually rate him

I've said many times I think he's the 2nd greatest player ever.

However, Argentina made the Copa final before him in 2004, and despite playing more Copas to give him extra chances, he could not take them to victory.

As for the WC, 2014 was very much an anomaly, where they defended their way to the final, let's not forget Messi scored ZERO in the knockout stage.

 

[Bole Top]

As for the WC, 2014 was very much an anomaly, where they defended their way to the final, let's not forget Messi scored ZERO in the knockout stage.

then the same goes to Ronaldo. lost every match against top national teams in recent tournaments except the one he didn't participate in and even then Portugal needed the easiest draw possible (something you think Messi benefited from in this year's CL) = anomaly, fluke.

 

[Cal?]

then the same goes to Ronaldo. lost every match against top national teams in recent tournaments except the one he didn't participate in and even then Portugal needed the easiest draw possible (something you think Messi benefited from in this year's CL) = anomaly, fluke.

Except for the remarkable improvement of Portugal's fortunes with Ronaldo.

Before Ronaldo, they have only qualified for the Euro finals 3 times in their entire history - 84 SF, 96, QF, 00 SF
Since he started - 04 2nd, 08 QF, 12 SF, 16 Winner

 

[Bole Top]

Except for the remarkable improvement of Portugal's fortunes with Ronaldo.

Before Ronaldo, they have only qualified for the Euro finals 3 times in their entire history - 84 SF, 96, QF, 00 SF
Since he started - 04 2nd, 08 QF, 12 SF, 16 Winner

with this you basically said Portugal were also good even before he peaked. 2000 SF - good. 2004 final as hosts - great. which means the quality was already there.

 

[Cal?]

with this you basically said Portugal were also good even before he peaked. 2000 SF - good. 2004 final as hosts - great. which means the quality was already there.

One man made more difference to Portugal than the whole golden generation of Rui Costa, Sousa, Figo, Fernando Couto & co.

 

[Bole Top]

One man made more difference to Portugal than the whole golden generation of Rui Costa, Sousa, Figo, Fernando Couto & co.

yes, and his name is Ederzito António Macedo Lopes

 

[Cal?]

yes, and his name is Ederzito António Macedo Lopes

He wouldn't even get to play in that game if it wasn't for Ronaldo.

By the same logic, Higuain shouldn't be getting all the blame, without him Argentina don't even beat Belgium back in 14.