He broke the game open, made Boateng ( one of the most solid defenders in Europe this season) bow in graciousness and chipped the ball over the world's best goalkeeper like it was an ordinary thing to do. The terms 'doing little' are not defined by having flashy dribbles once every 3-5 minutes, it's about the influence your actions have whenever they hit the target. Safe to say they were a bit important last night aye ?
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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He broke the game open, made Boateng ( one of the most solid defenders in Europe this season) bow in graciousness and chipped the ball over the world's best goalkeeper like it was an ordinary thing to do. The terms 'doing little' are not defined by having flashy dribbles once every 3-5 minutes, it's about the influence your actions have whenever they hit the target. Safe to say they were a bit important last night aye ?
The point is that even before Messi destroyed bayern over that 10 minute spell, he was having a terrific game anyway. I don't see what's to even argue here, and it's not even relevant to the comparison for people to get so worked up over. Surely fans of both sides can acknowledge the other playing well? It doesn't make the guy they prefer any lesser either.
Except for the fact he's not more productive...
OVer the last 5 seasons (including this one), Ronaldo has 273 goals in 261 apps, Messi has 280 goals in 262 apps. Basically the same amount of apps played, Messi has slightly more goals (though not a lot in it, as I said). Assists probably aren't hard to find but Messi obviously has more then Ronaldo without checking, I'm sure you'd agree. So slightly more goals in the same amount of appearances and a lot more assists = more productive, no?
Messi has yet again won another chapter. 2ez, he's barely even trying at this point either.
I'm sure cal will tell you that you should only have taken the last couple of seasons into account.
Theres 3 certainties in life....death, taxes and plenty of the caf taking Cals Messi vs Ronaldo bait every year.
Troll of the year 2011,12,13,14,15. Untouchable.
Troll of the year 2011,12,13,14,15. Untouchable.
I agree.
It would be unthinkable at this stage if it is anything other than that. Amazing Troll.
Cal won the golden troll five years in a row now and we can bet our souls that he will win it again this year
Since 10/11, Ronaldo has outscored Messi 3 times in La Liga, including the current season.
Strangely enough, he hasn't made much more assists than Ronaldo. I think only 30 assists or so more than Ronaldo since he has gone to Madrid. Basically, Messi has only like 5 more goals/assists per season. So, they are well matched when it comes to final product.
When it comes to the other things, then I guess Messi wins the contest. Ronaldo is quite good, and in my opinion the best counter attacking player I have ever seen, which is very suited to Madrid game. dd to that, he has a better workrate than Messi. But Messi is as good striker as Ronaldo, while also at the same time he is one of the best playmakers in the game. He is simply a better player. No fault to Ronaldo, keeping up with Messi and still being in discussion tells us how good he is. Jst that unfortunately for him, he is playing at the same era when there is a player better than even players in FIFA/PES.
They're like the those cults, where they alone see the light and everyone else is the devil, how dare us mortals challenge their god, etc, etc...
Its easy really, Ronaldo played for United and Messi was'nt good enough. (Joke)
Yeah, pretty much this. He's slightly more productive, though the difference is marginal in terms of goals/game, the difference is as you say, how Messi is also the best playmaker around, not just goalscorer. Taking nothing away from Ronaldo, he's done brilliantly to even make it a debate and to fully deserve 3 ballon d'ors, its just that at their best, he's not as good as messi at his best.
The difference is marginal because Barcelona are so, so wasteful in front of goal.
Its not that, its just that I'm genuinely interested to see a reason that Ronaldo at his best is a better player or as good as Messi. We've already established that goalscoring wise they're virtually identical, and Messi a handful more assists per season. And you've admitted that Messi is more talented already. I don't like one more then the other, Ronaldo was my favourite player for years and I always want him to win the ballon d'ors but at their peaks, there is only one winner and I'm sure 90% of people would admit that. Ronaldo has had to work more for his success probably, as he doesn't have the amount of natural talent Messi has, but that shouldn't come into who is a better player.
I just think Ronaldo is the more effective player in most situations. He'd be a success anywhere he plays, Messi needs everything built around him, as seen by his failure in an Argie shirt for years and years.
Wasn't that because he "stole" a goal from Neymar previously in the game? Plus he's shit at penalties... hook in water
Even if that's the reason, you wouldn't see Ronaldo offer Bale or Benzema to take the pen.
As opposed to Ronaldo's magnificent Portugal form?
He was still their outstanding player, they wouldn't even have been in Brazil without him.
Yeah, but we're not just talking about Brazil in this case. Your argument was that Messi has been a failure for Argentina for "years in years". Ronaldo's also under-performed for Portugal compared to his usual standards for a lot of his career on the international stage. Like Messi, he's improved a lot for his nation in the last few years.
Scored a Hatrick in the playoffs, PLAYOFFS....must have slept through the actual qualifiers
Not true, Ronaldo was already outstanding back in 2006 and would have won YPOWC if it wasn't for the English media going crazy over his wink.
In 2010 they only just lost out to the eventual champions.
But Ronaldo was completely average in that World Cup, and wasn't particularly great in 2008 either considering he was the best player in the world at that time. His overall international goals record of 52 in 119 is fairly average compared to his club standards. It's just bizarre to criticise Messi's international record but praise Ronaldo's.
Let's not go into comparing their international team mates again, it's been done time and again and it doesn't reflect well on Messi at all.
Your argument was that Ronaldo would be a success anywhere he went, though. If you're suddenly bringing teammates into why his performances are poorer at international than club level, that completely contradicts your original argument, which was that he'd be a success anywhere, no matter what.
I wish we could clone and preserve this Messi so our next generations get the privilege to experience what we're experiencing with this man. I'll always be a ronaldo fan boy though, it's just Messi is the type of footballer I want my kids to see
Everything is relative, Ronaldo is a relative success at Portugal with the team mates he's had.
But you weren't talking about him being relative though!
You were saying that he'd be a success no matter where he goes. If he was playing for San Marino then, yeah, you'd have a point, but he's playing for a team that - while not as good as Argentina - is still generally quite good, and has often been the best team in its group.
Not to mention that while Messi has a better Argentina side, his qualifying games are generally much harder. He's guaranteed to be playing Brazil, and sides like Uruguay and Colombia too, and doesn't have any ridiculously easy games like, say, San Marino or Andorra can come up against.
It's just daft to criticise Messi for his international record and then give Ronaldo a free pass, especially when your argument is that he's brilliant anywhere but Messi supposedly isn't. Their international records don't support that theory at all, especially in current times, since Messi's international goals record has really improved recently, and (while I disagreed with it), he was given the award for being the best player at the 2014 World Cup.
He played a great game against Sweden, but coming second behind Russia was embarrassing.
As was coming third behind the US (and being eliminated) in the group stages.
For me, it's Messi > Ronaldo. Not "by a mile", but by enough of a distance to make it an easy decision.
The only argument at this point that could turn me around is a stat that turns on goals scored v shots taken. I know we have 3-4 top stats guys here on the caf who dig these numbers up fairly quickly.
My gut tell me that Messi has a better ratio of goals scored/shots taken but I could be very wrong about that. If it turns out Ronaldo has the better percentage it might reshape the analysis bit. After all, both have won gold balls, both have won multiple trophies, set crazy goal scoring records and both make opponents look silly, like the Bayern defender who almost broke his own ankles last night trying to defend Messi.
Any stats guys out there who work their magic? Goals scored/Shots taken.
Thanks!
The only argument at this point that could turn me around is a stat that turns on goals scored v shots taken. I know we have 3-4 top stats guys here on the caf who dig these numbers up fairly quickly.
My gut tell me that Messi has a better ratio of goals scored/shots taken but I could be very wrong about that. If it turns out Ronaldo has the better percentage it might reshape the analysis bit. After all, both have won gold balls, both have won multiple trophies, set crazy goal scoring records and both make opponents look silly, like the Bayern defender who almost broke his own ankles last night trying to defend Messi.
Any stats guys out there who work their magic? Goals scored/Shots taken.
Thanks!
Think that's incredibly harsh. He's done really well for Argentina the last 4-5 years as well I think. Anyways, both Ronaldo and Messi have a similar record for their countries as well (Ronaldo has 52 in 119 (.44 gpg), Messi has 45 in 97 (.46 gpg)).
Both are obviously capable of destroying any league, the fact that they're both on like 77/76 goals in the champions league throughout their career shows this. I don't think there's one situation where they'd be a failure. I do think it's easier to make Ronaldo have a quiet game though, he's just less involved in games then messi is. Messi always goes deep in the midfield, plays the playmaking role and everything but also has the goalscoring. You can always count on both to pop up with a goal (like they both did), the difference is with Ronaldo, he'll get a goal through his movement or a long range strike but then have a pretty quiet game on his bad days and hardly get the ball, while Messi will still create chances for others constantly and will dribble past everyone.
Basically, IMO, Ronaldo and Messi are neck in neck when it comes to end product. One season Ronaldo will have more, the next Messi. They're both quick and have great shots, Ronaldo better at pens, Messi better at free kicks. So any shooting is pretty equal. They've both shown that pretty much wherever they've been, be it on international level (to a lesser extent though for both, not just Messi) or club level. The difference is obviously the playmaking and dribbling. Ronaldo just isn't capable of going past players like Messi, or picking out a pass like him. And you can't say it means nothing if it doesn't lead to a goal. Dribbling past a player or 2 (or 3) like he does time after time opens up so much room for everyone else, and he has the ability and vision to always pick out a pass at the end of it. Ronaldo can't really do that anymore like he used to, he more just powers past them but doesn't drift past them effortlessly like in his younger days. He has a decent eye for a pass, but when it comes to playmaking, he's nothing special (doesn't need to be though). Messi is the only player I've ever seen who is the best player in the world when it comes to both scoring (tied with Ronaldo) and creating, and that's what sets him apart. You can't say one player has the advantage on international level or consistency, they're both the same when it comes to that.
The number of qualifying places in Conmebol also ensures there's almost no way that Argentina can miss out on a WC, or have to play a playoff.But you weren't talking about him being relative though!
You were saying that he'd be a success no matter where he goes. If he was playing for San Marino then, yeah, you'd have a point, but he's playing for a team that - while not as good as Argentina - is still generally quite good, and has often been the best team in its group.
Not to mention that while Messi has a better Argentina side, his qualifying games are generally much harder. He's guaranteed to be playing Brazil, and sides like Uruguay and Colombia too, and doesn't have any ridiculously easy games like, say, San Marino or Andorra can come up against.
It's just daft to criticise Messi for his international record and then give Ronaldo a free pass, especially when your argument is that he's brilliant anywhere but Messi supposedly isn't. Their international records don't support that theory at all, especially in current times, since Messi's international goals record has really improved recently, and (while I disagreed with it), he was given the award for being the best player at the 2014 World Cup.
It remains that Messi has been ineffective for years for Argentina, and even a less stable Barca for the past 2-3 seasons. Ronaldo has excelled at United and Madrid playing a number of different formations and tactics during that time.
Ineffective? I'm done. I'm outta here, man. You're out of control.
Until the qualifying for WC2014, I don't think ineffective is a harsh description at all.
Except for the fact that they were one game away from having to play a qualifier in 2010. And this would only be relevant if Portugal weren't making it to World Cups - they have done in every one since Ronaldo burst onto the scene, so that's no excuse.
You ignored my main point - the general standard of competition for Ronaldo from game to game in qualifying is lower than Messi's. I'm not talking about qualifying places. How is that part difficult to understand?
Messi has not been ineffective at any time while at Barca. That is a complete load of shite. He's had a spell where he perhaps wasn't as brilliant as he has been, but that's because of the insanely high standards he's set: even at his poorest, he's still been utterly immense.
He's not really been ineffective for years at Argentina either. Again, I've highlighted his improvement in form and the fact that he won the award for best player at the 2014 WC, an achievement far beyond what Ronaldo has achieved at international level. Again, I don't really believe he deserved that award, but I'll use it since it's important by your logic, because you regularly cite Ronaldo's Ballon D'Or from last year. He's simply not been any worse than Ronaldo at international level, to be honest. You're pulling stuff out of your arse now in that regard.
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