Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Lebo]

Why did Ronaldo win more champions league titles? Better teams?
Why is Messi’s form ordinary outside Spain? I mean champions league away legs and international games? This poll is obviously based on the last 3 games and Juventus has been playing horrible. The same guy who scored 5 knockout goals in 2 ties , top scorer 7 times running is suddenly not good enough to match up to the standard of Messi? How?

 

[Schneckerl]

Why did Ronaldo win more champions league titles? Better teams?

Why did Messi win more league titles?

 

[Thehiddenpassenger07]

The so called "eye test" is basically just feelings, you lot are so simple minded that you think resorting to petty insults is the way to go.

There's been plenty of Messi brigade down the years and you're the only one who is this unique combination of cluelessness and holier-than-thou attitude.

How can watching the games be called "basically just feelings"? That is the best standard of measuring a players ability on the pitch, and you call the Messi brigade simple minded for that , mate your up is the worlds down and your downs are up the street to the left , No wonder you think ronaldo is better! all your judgement comes from stats..

But Ive been reading this thread for a while now so im a little confused, you claim messi has been in the best teams of all time in barcelona, but if we judge certain players by your standards (stats) some fall short of being great and some actually are better than others, for example xavi, iniesta and busquets during barcelona dominance produced far lower assists stats than ozil, alonso and di maria, but when talking about the former you claim they are great but when talking about the latter you portray them as not as great!

Can you explain to me what is that about or am i missing something?

 

[sun_tzu]

Why did Ronaldo win more champions league titles? Better teams?
Why is Messi’s form ordinary outside Spain? I mean champions league away legs and international games? This poll is obviously based on the last 3 games and Juventus has been playing horrible. The same guy who scored 5 knockout goals in 2 ties , top scorer 7 times running is suddenly not good enough to match up to the standard of Messi? How?

Because

Shutters

 

[Swoobs]

Why did Ronaldo win more champions league titles? Better teams?
Why is Messi’s form ordinary outside Spain? I mean champions league away legs and international games? This poll is obviously based on the last 3 games and Juventus has been playing horrible. The same guy who scored 5 knockout goals in 2 ties , top scorer 7 times running is suddenly not good enough to match up to the standard of Messi? How?

Because goal scoring is the only area that CR7 competes with Messi in. Messi has other competitors over the years in other categories such as Robben/Hazard (dribbling) and Ozil/KDB (key passes/throughballs).

It is like you cannot compare Michael Phelps (great in 100m, 200m and 400m) to a 100m only specialist. A good example will be comparing RVN to Henry, they may compete in goal scored but Henry is generally a better player.

 

[Zehner]

The so called "eye test" is basically just feelings, you lot are so simple minded that you think resorting to petty insults is the way to go.

There's been plenty of Messi brigade down the years and you're the only one who is this unique combination of cluelessness and holier-than-thou attitude.

Ah okay, this is what you mean with feelings maybe we should stop watching football then and just read the scoresheet. I mean, weren't you the one discreditting whoscored ratings, xG, packing rate, goal impact, chances created, sucessful dribbles and all these approaches to quantify football? So enlighten us, what's the secret to your superior quantitative model that allows to win football bet after bet (honestly, that almost sounds like some adverts you see on an illegal streaming or porn website )?

I'm not in the "holier than thou" camp by the way, I'm in the "you are unholier than the rest of us wannabe experts and that's by a considerable margin" camp.

 

[Cal?]

Ah okay, this is what you mean with feelings maybe we should stop watching football then and just read the scoresheet. I mean, weren't you the one discreditting whoscored ratings, xG, packing rate, goal impact, chances created, sucessful dribbles and all these approaches to quantify football? So enlighten us, what's the secret to your superior quantitative model that allows to win football bet after bet (honestly, that almost sounds like some adverts you see on an illegal streaming or porn website )?

I'm not in the "holier than thou" camp by the way, I'm in the "you are unholier than the rest of us wannabe experts and that's by a considerable margin" camp.

I'm obviously not going to share online, hence the offer of proving oneself by betting. But since you're too chicken to do it, or you know deep down that for all your so call football knowledge, you know very little about it.

You don't get to tell me which camp I think you're in. You have the freedom to think whatever you want of me, and I have the freedom to think you're uniquely clueless as well as having an holier than thou attitude.

But the concept of free thought is probably too complicated for an avid supporter of the brigade who think their opinions = facts.

 

[Cal?]

How can watching the games be called "basically just feelings"? That is the best standard of measuring a players ability on the pitch, and you call the Messi brigade simple minded for that , mate your up is the worlds down and your downs are up the street to the left , No wonder you think ronaldo is better! all your judgement comes from stats..

But Ive been reading this thread for a while now so im a little confused, you claim messi has been in the best teams of all time in barcelona, but if we judge certain players by your standards (stats) some fall short of being great and some actually are better than others, for example xavi, iniesta and busquets during barcelona dominance produced far lower assists stats than ozil, alonso and di maria, but when talking about the former you claim they are great but when talking about the latter you portray them as not as great!

Can you explain to me what is that about or am i missing something?

I never said you should base everything on goals and assists. But there’s much more to analyzing football than the simple stats you can obtain online.

Let’s just say winning is the ultimate goal of football, and each player brings something to each game and Ronaldo increases a teams winning chance more than Messi

 

[Thehiddenpassenger07]

I never said you should base everything on goals and assists. But there’s much more to analyzing football than the simple stats you can obtain online.

Let’s just say winning is the ultimate goal of football, and each player brings something to each game and Ronaldo increases a teams winning chance more than Messi

Ok, but i would like to know How you analyze this, what makes the trio xavi, busi, iniesta better if they have worst stats than the ex madridistas?

Dont agree at all, and not if they are facing each other in a champions league final or a semi final? Am i right?

 

[GuyfromAustria]

This thread is now 1566 days old. Cal? has posted 1546 times in it.
Imagine spending more than 4 years defending a player in an online forum every day.

 

[Cal?]

Ok, but i would like to know How you analyze this, what makes the trio xavi, busi, iniesta better if they have worst stats than the ex madridistas?

Dont agree at all, and not if they are facing each other in a champions league final or a semi final? Am i right?

It's more to do with what happens when each player misses a game and how the market reacts to it.

The only times they've faced each other in the CL, let's just say the quality difference was in the rest of the team.

 

[Cal?]

This thread is now 1566 days old. Cal? has posted 1546 times in it.
Imagine spending more than 4 years defending a player in an online forum every day.

That's assuming I post once in this thread each day, which I clearly don't.

I just post lots every so often and go months not posting.

 

[Thehiddenpassenger07]

It's more to do with what happens when each player misses a game and how the market reacts to it.

The only times they've faced each other in the CL, let's just say the quality difference was in the rest of the team.

Bolded part was not for me, question was what makes the barcelona trio better than the madridistas?

He was let down by his team? Sounds familiar, what you criticise the "messi brigade" about doing and now you are doing the same thing? both times?

Did he took machester united to the finals and real to the semis and he just couldnt do it against messi or did the teams took ronaldo and then the teams couldnt do it against Messi? Which is it?

When messi did not appear against Roma how did messi play? Are you going to be consistent with what you say? Or it only applies to messi?

i mean i thought Ronaldo increased a teams winning chance more than messi? Are you sure that ronaldo did not choke when he saw messi in the final and the semis? The Goat couldnt score in any of them? Such bad luck, messi didnt even need his teammates to score against real he single handedly destroyed Ronal, i mean madrid..

Ah Good days.

 

[Cal?]

Bolded part was not for me, question was what makes the barcelona trio better than the madridistas?

He was let down by his team? Sounds familiar, what you criticise the "messi brigade" about doing and now you are doing the same thing? both times?

Did he took machester united to the finals and real to the semis and he just couldnt do it against messi or did the teams took ronaldo and then the teams couldnt do it against Messi? Which is it?

When messi did not appear against Roma how did messi play? Are you going to be consistent with what you say? Or it only applies to messi?

i mean i thought Ronaldo increased a teams winning chance more than messi? Are you sure that ronaldo did not choke when he saw messi in the final and the semis? The Goat couldnt score in any of them? Such bad luck, messi didnt even need his teammates to score against real he single handedly destroyed Ronal, i mean madrid..

Ah Good days.

Except for the fact he only scored that goal after Alves pulled a performance worthy of the oscar for Pepe not touching him.

 

[Mcking]

That poll results looking more and more like what you would expect in a Lukaku vs Kane poll. Obviously plenty would vote for Lukaku as he is Belgium's all-time top scorer and has shown that he can do it with Everton, West Brom and Genk, while Kane has only done it for Tottenham.

 

[Tostao_80]

There are plenty who seem to say whatever they want at whatever time they want.

Pele has certainly said one of them is the best at various different times.

Anyway, are you resorting to majority = right? Do you support Brexit?

But who are these plenty? You've made a claim and ive asked you to provide evidence of said claim.
Either provide evidence of your claim, or admit that you cant.
No amount of whatabouterry is going to save you.

 

[Sauldogba]

All Ronaldos games have been the same since 3 to 4 years from now, he is having a bad game literally where he is not even remotely the best player on the pitch but then a moment of briliance by a teammate who creates a great ocassion and sets him up a thorugh ball for a tap in comes and then all of a sudden Ronaldo single handedly destroyed his opponent, its hillarious really..

They turn what was a bad game literally to a magnificent one because he tapped a ball in, i mean this is not a realistc barometer in which we can proove who played better individually on the pitch and this is mostly done in the majority of his games where he is not the best on the pitch just because he tapped a ball.

Just to give an example in the Juventus vs Atletico game Ronaldo played better than in most games and scored a hat trick true, but it is also true that he was not juventus best player on the pitch, it was Federico Bernardeschi! without this guy there is no penalty and no first goal! But it wasnt only those 2 actions he was just juventus best dribbler, assiter, the best influencer on the pitch, the one who did the most damage with the ball on his feet.

So the best way in my opinion to recognize who the best player is, is by WATCHING them play in the clasico heads up, Analyze every touch they make during the game and see for yourself whose end product is better, i think it is the best representation of how both of them handle themselves on the pitch! you see Messi everywhere when his team is attacking, he is creating, dribbling, assisting, playing one twos, nutmegging, going past players and even scoring, he has far way more reponsibilities on the pitch and on the other hand there is ronaldo without the ball just waiting for a teammate to set him up for him to score, hes only responsibility is to be free to receive by outpacing or outjumping a rival..

Comparing them is delusional.

Same could be said about Messi vs pool though.
You could make a claim for Alba having a better game than him.

 

[Sauldogba]

It has nothing to do with being defensive or on the Messi camp, it's just this ridiculous notion of Ronaldo's switch to the Serie A as him challenging himself is just that, ridiculous.

Im not saying moving to serie a is that big a challenge but its still more of a challenge than staying in your comfort zone like Messi has done.
Doubt Messi has the stones to do that tbh.

I mean we saw this when he threw his toys out his pram, cried like a baby and decided to retire from international football.
Say what you like about ronnie but he never would have done that.
And he plays for a worse team than Messi.

 

[wub1234]

Has anyone watched this video?



This is what Gullit says:

I think [Ronaldo] is [the greatest of all-time].

Because he won also with his country, yeah. European Championship.

He, you know, he does it with all the clubs he has been.

Champions League also with Man United.

He done it in three different countries.

He won how many times Golden Ball, five times?

And it's comparing, but what he achieved for every team he played for it's unbelievable.

And Messi couldn't do it with Argentina, he'd been close.

It's a little bit the icing on the cake, you know, the fact that he played in three different countries.

And you said it already...work ethics. They all admire him for this work ethics.

Even now he want to be more fit.

Has he been hanging around with you lot?!

It's just completely insubstantial and poorly founded arguments, none of which relate to what he does on the actual pitch.

How you could possibly elevate the importance of winning Serie A, that's just hilarious.

That Italian title with Juventus, where they scored less goals than last season in a worse division, and didn't win the Coppa Italia, I don't know how Ronaldo pulled that season off.

And, of course, he deserves sole credit for trundling in a few goals from close range, I mean Juventus never would have won it without him! I mean, it's not like they won it the previous seven seasons, and also won the Coppa Italia in previous seasons, and did better in the Champions League in previous seasons.

No, that eighth consecutive stroll to the Serie A title, 20 points ahead ahead of a depleted Napoli (who weren't even good enough to score against Arsenal over two legs), proves that Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player ever.

I've actually changed my mind after watching that video. I'm going to ignore Messi's palpably superior ability and performances from now on.

 

[Cal?]

But who are these plenty? You've made a claim and ive asked you to provide evidence of said claim.
Either provide evidence of your claim, or admit that you cant.
No amount of whatabouterry is going to save you.

I don’t subscribe to the majority knows best notion, you clearly do?

 

[Sauldogba]

Because goal scoring is the only area that CR7 competes with Messi in. Messi has other competitors over the years in other categories such as Robben/Hazard (dribbling) and Ozil/KDB (key passes/throughballs).

It is like you cannot compare Michael Phelps (great in 100m, 200m and 400m) to a 100m only specialist. A good example will be comparing RVN to Henry, they may compete in goal scored but Henry is generally a better player.

Thats because its not Ronaldos game to dribble half way accross the pitch or play through balls. As weve seen when he was at United he can do these things by the way. Just because he has now simplified his game and has different attributes doesnt mean you "cannot compare" the two because it has worked for him and the teams hes played for.
Hes has a few things on Messi as well by the way.
Defensively hes better.
Tracking back hes better
He has better movement.
Better at heading
Better with his weak foot.
Better at penalties.
Definitely more of a clutch player.

 

[Casanova85]

Got a Animated series coming out apparently...

I wonder how females will be portrayed.

 

[BusbyMalone]

I wonder how females will be portrayed.

As liars probably.

 

[Pocho]

Why did Ronaldo win more champions league titles? Better teams?
Why is Messi’s form ordinary outside Spain? I mean champions league away legs and international games? This poll is obviously based on the last 3 games and Juventus has been playing horrible. The same guy who scored 5 knockout goals in 2 ties , top scorer 7 times running is suddenly not good enough to match up to the standard of Messi? How?

He is simply worst than Messi, great great player but not in Messi's level though.

 

[Tostao_80]

I don’t subscribe to the majority knows best notion, you clearly do?

Yet, you dont mind trotting it out to favour Cristiano. Dont you keep banging on about Cristiano getting more Balon Dor votes than Messi in the majority of their career (10 to 5).
Now you dont subscribe to the majority argument. Which one is it?

 

[KirkDuyt]

I don’t subscribe to the majority knows best notion, you clearly do?

Isnt that pretty much exactly what a balon d'or is?

 

[Cal?]

Yet, you dont mind trotting it out to favour Cristiano. Dont you keep banging on about Cristiano getting more Balon Dor votes than Messi in the majority of their career (10 to 5).
Now you dont subscribe to the majority argument. Which one is it?

That's just proving my point, I've never advocated majority view is correct.

Isnt that pretty much exactly what a balon d'or is?

I don't think Ronaldo is better because of Ballon D'or, but that helps justify my view.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Meaning you do subscribe to the notion? Or at least partially? Or just at certain points?

Me, I describe heartilly to the notion. If everyone around you jumps in the pond, you can bet yer arse Im getting in too

 

[matbezlima]

Ok, but i would like to know How you analyze this, what makes the trio xavi, busi, iniesta better if they have worst stats than the ex madridistas?

Dont agree at all, and not if they are facing each other in a champions league final or a semi final? Am i right?

They don't have worst stats and were clearly better players. Just watch them.

 

[Cal?]

Meaning you do subscribe to the notion? Or at least partially? Or just at certain points?

Me, I describe heartilly to the notion. If everyone around you jumps in the pond, you can bet yer arse Im getting in too

You think Brexit is a good idea?

 

[matbezlima]

Messi at his prime is another level. Dribbling, passing, skills. They only are equal as goalscorer. When Messi was at his absolute prime from 2009-2012, no one even thought that CR7 could be a better player.

 

[Samid]

Some mod PM'd me asking me to change my vote. I will if the garden gnome eliminates the bin dippers.

 

[Swoobs]

Thats because its not Ronaldos game to dribble half way accross the pitch or play through balls. As weve seen when he was at United he can do these things by the way. Just because he has now simplified his game and has different attributes doesnt mean you "cannot compare" the two because it has worked for him and the teams hes played for.
Hes has a few things on Messi as well by the way.
Defensively hes better.
Tracking back hes better
He has better movement.
Better at heading
Better with his weak foot.
Better at penalties.
Definitely more of a clutch player.

When CR7 was in United (the last season) and his first season of Real Madrid, indeed he could score goals, dribble and even play make. But you are comparing 2 seasons of him performing at an elite level in the 3 main areas of attacking football against someone that had done so for a decade. If CR7 played like he did in that 2 seasons for the entire decade, then the polls will be a lot closer.

To the other few points you have brought up, lets go through point by point.

Defensively hes better. - Better in defending corners yes, but I believe Messi has a better tackle.
Tracking back hes better - Erm..not too sure about that, I mean we know Messi can be lazy as feck but we also saw him playing LB against Liverpool midweek. But for argument sake, even if it is true, this is not one of CR7's greatest attribute. I mean if we were to include all possible attributes,I am sure given his height and jump, CR7 will be better at shot stopping as a goalkeeper than Messi too.
He has better movement. - Goal Scoring
Better at heading - Goal Scoring
Better with his weak foot. - I interpret this as the gap between CR7's either foot being smaller than the gap between Messi's either foot. Not really a big plus to CR7 as Messi's left foot is something else. But ok, lets consider this a plus to CR7.
Better at penalties. - Goal Scoring
Definitely more of a clutch player - Is this a fact or an opinion? Did messi's career start in 2016? Lets assume that football indeed was started in 2016, in this case CR7 is only more clutch in...yes Goal Scoring

So basically other than better in defending corners, a questionable better tracking back and being a better goal keeper, all other "better than messi" attributes are basically goal scoring attributes. Yet despite all those pluses for CR7, they are about equal in the goal scoring area. See, what you have done here is merely pointing out attributes that CR7 is better in within the goal scoring area, which is the area they are competing in. I can easily bring up messi being simply the better finisher based on their goals/shots ratio, but it is merely an attribute, they are still equal in the goal scoring area despite their superiority/weakness in all these attributes.

As for the "better weak foot", it is an important attribute as it contributes to all major areas of football. However this attribute merely allowed CR7 to compete with Messi in just 1 major attacking area for as long as I remembered them play, and 2 other major attacking areas for only 2 years.

 

[Thehiddenpassenger07]

Except for the fact he only scored that goal after Alves pulled a performance worthy of the oscar for Pepe not touching him.

Cant prove you're wrong right now don't have the rights to post a video, but this fact that you claim is nothing more than a wrong opinion, another one!

Either way a goal is a goal isnt it? i dont hear you complaining when cristiano dips into the pool for a penalty and then score, so whats your point?

 

[RochaRoja]

Has anyone watched this video?



This is what Gullit says:

Has he been hanging around with you lot?!

It's just completely insubstantial and poorly founded arguments, none of which relate to what he does on the actual pitch.

How you could possibly elevate the importance of winning Serie A, that's just hilarious.

That Italian title with Juventus, where they scored less goals than last season in a worse division, and didn't win the Coppa Italia, I don't know how Ronaldo pulled that season off.

And, of course, he deserves sole credit for trundling in a few goals from close range, I mean Juventus never would have won it without him! I mean, it's not like they won it the previous seven seasons, and also won the Coppa Italia in previous seasons, and did better in the Champions League in previous seasons.

No, that eighth consecutive stroll to the Serie A title, 20 points ahead ahead of a depleted Napoli (who weren't even good enough to score against Arsenal over two legs), proves that Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player ever.

I've actually changed my mind after watching that video. I'm going to ignore Messi's palpably superior ability and performances from now on.

Gullit won the Euros, succeeded in three different leagues and loved a header. He also has a very strong attachment to Italian football. Perhaps he sees more of himself in Ronaldo.

 

[RochaRoja]

Definitely more of a clutch player.

Messi’s record in semis and finals is better. Try again.

 

[KirkDuyt]

You think Brexit is a good idea?

british people dont count.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Well this poll was closed abruptly in order to stop Ronaldo overtaking Messi near end of last season, when it went from 30% vs 70% to 50% vs 50% in just matter of weeks or months (when Ronaldo is having a better season). Now its re-open again (when Messi is having a better season), and it goes from 50% vs 50% back to 35% vs 65%..... talking about agenda (from thread starter), and how fickle people (voters) was.

 

[Bole Top]

tbf, this is how poll should look like in normal circumstances, even on United forum. the fact Ronaldo was always behind even with 3 CL's in row is quite telling actually. now when he has only his individual ability against Messi's individual ability, the poll reflects more accurately what most people think of them. like I've said before, Ronaldo needs CL trophy only to stand a chance in this debate. without that, there's no contest. if Barca had won 3 CL's in row, the poll results would be something like 80% vs 20%.

 

[Cal?]

Cant prove you're wrong right now don't have the rights to post a video, but this fact that you claim is nothing more than a wrong opinion, another one!

Either way a goal is a goal isnt it? i dont hear you complaining when cristiano dips into the pool for a penalty and then score, so whats your point?

A goal is a goal, but then you guys aren’t crediting him with a goal but destroying Madrid on his own.

The point is he spent 70+ min being handled by Jose’s tactics and scored very soon after Alves’s acting got Pepe sent off.