As above, it seems you're getting the wrong end of the stick.
And why was he their star player? Because he's their best player. Everyone could see it by watching Barca games, even in the matches he doesn't score.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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And why was he their star player? Because he's their best player. Everyone could see it by watching Barca games, even in the matches he doesn't score.
Don't see how this changes anything. Your argument was that Muller received less credit for his feats due to not being the star player for his side (and thus isn't in the discussion for being GOAT alongside Mara) and then using Messi as an example of a player who received more credit than deserved for being the star player of the side and bringing up the 2015 CL.As above, it seems you're getting the wrong end of the stick.
Either way, it is an awful argument to begin with. The reason Muller is not compared to Maradona is not because he wasn't the star player, it is because scoring goals in the biggest games is not THE criteria to determine the worth of a player. It is because Maradona was simply a better player than Mueller, despite scoring less goals. Just like with the case of Ronaldo and Messi (except he doesn't even score less goals overall). I guess the "star player of the side" is just some poor attempt at trying to keep your own logic somewhat coherent.
I'm mostly agreeing with you here.
It seems whenever I mention Messi, you guys get all paranoid about it. I was pointing out that Messi was the key player despite not scoring as many as Neymar or Suarez. Beckenbauer was the key player in the Germany/Bayern sides that Muller had a great scoring record in.
However, with Ronaldo's CL 3-peat or 4 in 5 run, it was clear that he WAS the key player.
Ramos was the clutch player for most of the 3 peat.I'm mostly agreeing with you here.
It seems whenever I mention Messi, you guys get all paranoid about it. I was pointing out that Messi was the key player despite not scoring as many as Neymar or Suarez. Beckenbauer was the key player in the Germany/Bayern sides that Muller had a great scoring record in.
However, with Ronaldo's CL 3-peat or 4 in 5 run, it was clear that he WAS the key player.
You're basing the whole 3 peat on that equalizer against Atletico?
There is literally no point in people debating with Cal? in this thread. He (like many others I suppose) is too emotionally invested in their argument (player) to ever change his mind. There is zero chance of convincing him that his opinion is wrong. ZERO!
I have to commend him though on how he continually draws people into engaging in that almost wholly stats based argument of his. When you follow him down that rabbit hole, you always end up engaging on his terms. It's akin to debating with a marxist about 'capitalism'. Personally I find Peyroteo's argument a far better one, but there you go.
Anyway...as you were.
I have to commend him though on how he continually draws people into engaging in that almost wholly stats based argument of his. When you follow him down that rabbit hole, you always end up engaging on his terms. It's akin to debating with a marxist about 'capitalism'. Personally I find Peyroteo's argument a far better one, but there you go.
Anyway...as you were.
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I'm mostly agreeing with you here.
It seems whenever I mention Messi, you guys get all paranoid about it. I was pointing out that Messi was the key player despite not scoring as many as Neymar or Suarez. Beckenbauer was the key player in the Germany/Bayern sides that Muller had a great scoring record in.
However, with Ronaldo's CL 3-peat or 4 in 5 run, it was clear that he WAS the key player.
What does this even mean, key player? What makes you a key player? You are mixing result and cause. Why was Ronaldo the key player and Müller not although they had very similar roles on the pitch? Messi was the key player because he played better than the other two, even if the other two scored more. Now you are basically saying Ronaldo played better because he was the key player of Madrid. That makes zero sense at all.
There's no way the same criteria you apply to come to the conclusion that Ronaldo is better than Messi would also put Beckenbauer ahead of Müller, Ronaldinho ahead of Eto'o or Zidane ahead of Henry. None.
Ronaldo played better than the rest of the Madrid side (& scored most the goals), what's so difficult to understand.
That's not the point, we are not comparing him to the other Real Madrid players but to Messi. You are distracting. How on earth can the same evaluation process that leads to the conclusion that Cristiano is better than Messi also tell you that Beckenbauer is better than Müller? I mean, Beckenbauer isn't even remotely close to Müller's goal scoring. He's seen as better because all the other stuff he did on the field, mostly playmaking. Apparently that's enough for you to rate him higher than Müller, the most prolific goal scorer of European football of the last 50 years, Messi and Cristiano aside. Messi on the other hand even matches Cristiano's goal scoring record and on top of that is the best playmaker and dribbler of the last 20-30 years, yet that's still not enough for you to be better than Cristiano. You apply different criteria to different players.
I'm mostly agreeing with you here.
It seems whenever I mention Messi, you guys get all paranoid about it. I was pointing out that Messi was the key player despite not scoring as many as Neymar or Suarez. Beckenbauer was the key player in the Germany/Bayern sides that Muller had a great scoring record in.
However, with Ronaldo's CL 3-peat or 4 in 5 run, it was clear that he WAS the key player.
Cal, you're not one for facts are you? Suarez didn't score as many as Leo in 14/15, he scored 7 CL goals, Leo scored 10.
Infact, Leo with his 10 scored as many as Neymar.
And regarding Gerd and Franz. You know that Muller won the Balon Dor in 1970, ahead of Beckenbauer, who finished 4th? In what world are either Neymar or Suarez winning the Balon Dor ahead of Leo, whilst both at Barca? It never came close to happening.
Further more, Gerd finished ahead of Franza again in 1969 and 1973. Granted, Beckenbauer himself finished ahead on numerous occasions, but you will never get Suarez and/ or Neymar to finish ahead of Leo in any season, let alone the three times that Gerd did.
Moral of the story, Beckenbauer wasn't the only key player, Gerd was too.
To further this, they both had 2 German footballer of the Year awards each.
Your obsession with dribbling really is unreal.
Dribbling is only worth anything if it leads anywhere, otherwise Denilson or the likes would be rated much higher.
Anyway, back on point, do you really need me to explain Beckenbauer's role? Compared to Messi or Ronaldo? Their main role is to score/create goals.
We seem to be going round in circles, you seem to think Messi can score as many as Ronaldo and offers more on the pitch. I think Ronaldo delivers more in the biggest matches. All that has been said many times.
I was talking about the knockout stage, where Messi only scored 2 goals in 7 matches.
In a world if either of them scored 10 goals in a WC like Muller did in 1970.
Obviously Muller was very important to their teams, but Beckenbauer was seen as the talisman and leader of the side, and personally I do rate Muller very highly.
does the player who passed to Messi for the pre-assist get the pre-pre-assist?
When the CL assists chart doesn't show what they want, the Messi brigade invent pre-assists and other fictitious statistics to help their cause.
Cristiano has 30 more apps in CL though and I think scored a lot more penos.When the CL assists chart doesn't show what they want, the Messi brigade invent pre-assists and other fictitious statistics to help their cause.
Looking at Messi this year and since he’s two years younger it’s fair to say that a more apt comparison should be made 2-3 years from now where quite probably he will equal him in those departments.
Pre assists
Cristiano has more CL appearances because he generally makes it further in the competition.
He played 6 games in the CL before 04/05 when Messi played in the CL for the first time.
Pre assists is really funny but not as much as trying to compare the Goat with a great goalscorer.
Cal? you have been soo consistent on this Ronaldo vs Messi argument
You have been arguing about this for like 11 years.
You have been arguing about this for like 11 years.
That’s the thing though. Before Messi hit his peak United were the better side and ever since Xaviesta waned down Barca also went through a process of rebuilding with Messi having a different role to his more advanced one..
Only comparing CL knockout stats is tricky because you have an element of luck involved - who faces who.
I mean Cristiano botched up a lot of his goals against teams like Galatasaray, Schalke, Apoel, Wolfsburg and Spurs.
Messi also played some inferior teams but feel the overall quality was tad tougher and Barca usually faced stiffer opponents.
I wouldn't include a pre-assist if it meant Messi passed it to Neymar in a non-dangerous position and then Neymar dribbled past 8 players and assisted Suarez. Obviously some pre-assists are pointless and really say nothing.
Now watch the pre-assist I mentioned, wouldn't you say those pre-assists were as crucial to the goal as the actual assist itself and some of them even greater?
Ronaldo fans trying their hardest to diminish anything that is outside of penalties, goals and headers. Again, I can't tell if they actually had this idea that those qualities are what determine the better player in the first place or if they alter their ideas to fit based on what Ronaldo does well on.
Messi "won" a CL in 2006 by virtue of being in the same squad as Ronaldinho, 07 & 08 United were better than Barca, but then 09 onwards Barca were better than United/Real for many years.
Juve, Bayern, Atletico and Dortmund are 4 of the 6 sides he's scored the most goals against. I don't think you can accuse him of padding his stats against Gala & the likes.
For comparison, Messi's favorite opponents: Arsenal, Milan, Celtic, Leverkusen
As I’ve said 06 happened before he hit his peak.
Also I’m pretty sure Cristiano has a lot more penalty goals scored in those games. (Actually not that much, only 16 to 12 in favour of Cristiano, would expected more).
Have the feeling Messi will catch up pretty quickly with him as he doesn’t really rely that much on speed anymore and with Cristiano fading before him.
We’ll see, I think Ronaldo’s amazing fitness level will see him retire after Messi does.
This is ultimately what Cristiano fans dont seem to understand. Historically, what are the qualities as footballers that separated the likes of Pele, Diego, Di Stefano and Cruyff to other greats? When you look at Diego and compare him to Gerd Muller, what made virtually everyone agree that Diego was a much better footballer? It wasnt scoring goals (he scored less), he wasnt more clutch (Gerd was more decisive), it wasnt the headers (Gerd was better), off the ball movement (Gerd was better), trophies at ALL levels (Gerd achieved much more).
Diego was and is considered much better because he was a master on the football pitch, a true genius. His dribbling, allied to his close control and technique, passing and overall playmaking ability was off the chart. Gerd was a great footballer who scored a lot and was very clutch.
Cristiano will be remembered in the same way. He just doesnt have that genius or mastery on the football pitch that Pele, Leo and Diego had.
Beckenbauer was generally seen as a genius and the best player of their two teams, but if there's one word to describe the perception of Müller, it would be "talisman". And in my estimation (debatable of course), despite Beckenbauer being the best player, both were seen as equally important, which is accurate.
(Mainly talking about domestic perception here.)
I voted for Messi, it's a no brainer in my opinion.
And that's one thing I've noticed from months of reading through this thread, the people in it seem to have alot of trouble accepting that other people have a different opinion to them. Makes me wonder how most of you make it through the day in the real world
And that's one thing I've noticed from months of reading through this thread, the people in it seem to have alot of trouble accepting that other people have a different opinion to them. Makes me wonder how most of you make it through the day in the real world
There is literally no point in people debating with Cal? in this thread. He (like many others I suppose) is too emotionally invested in their argument (player) to ever change his mind. There is zero chance of convincing him that his opinion is wrong. ZERO!
I have to commend him though on how he continually draws people into engaging in that almost wholly stats based argument of his. When you follow him down that rabbit hole, you always end up engaging on his terms. It's akin to debating with a marxist about 'capitalism'. Personally I find Peyroteo's argument a far better one, but there you go.
Anyway...as you were.
So correct. But the poll results must be killing them inside. Don't forget this is a result on a United forum. May be it'll be the same on a sensible Madrid forum as well. Or anywhere else in the world, except in the minds of some dogmatic fanboys. This is also when Ronaldo is matching Messi statistically and is arguably better in the more glamorous Champions League. When they are both done, this thread will be a good source for hilarious entertainment.
Kinda like combining Maradona and Muller, and then comparing that combination to Muller.
Ronaldo is easily one of the greatest I have ever seen, I feel blessed to have witnessed him grace a football pitch
Messi however IS the greatest I have ever seen, we are incredibly lucky to be able to watch him live on our TV's or in the flesh if your lucky enough, no one comes close for me, well Ronaldo does obviously but he's the only one.
Messi however IS the greatest I have ever seen, we are incredibly lucky to be able to watch him live on our TV's or in the flesh if your lucky enough, no one comes close for me, well Ronaldo does obviously but he's the only one.
Il go with Messi, because I personally feel he is the best I have ever seen as a 43 year old, who has followed football all of his life.
Ronaldo is fantastic, a phenomenon, an amazing goal scorer, and his record in major championships, finals, league campaigns is there for all to see. He has dragged his teams to trophies at times, and is clearly the best player UTD have ever had (in ability, not time at club and influence - Bobby Charlton otherwise), and I would say Madrid have ever had. He is a legend, and will remain a legend, and will be looked back at as one of the best ever to grace the game through hard work, conditioning and determination.
Messi is also a phenomenon, and has also led his teams to many, many trophies, and through massive games, almost ‘singlehandedly’ at times. He will go down in history, as the greatest player for me, because of what else he does, in addition to Ronaldo. He creates more for others, and has contributed to more. He has the same determination, but this has come more naturally, but if people think he works less, they are in dreamland.
Personally, I think he is the best dribbler I have ever seen, the best free kick taker, the best passer, and the best goal scorer. He has also created more goals for others than anyone I can remember.
I loved Maradona, who was the best I had ever seen up to that point, (still young at the time!), and he was amazing, but for a shorter time than Messi. Pele, I have not seen, but when Messi overtakes his professional goal scoring record (not kick about in the park against his son goals), then as a goal scorer, you would have to see he is better, especially considering the level of competition.
Many will disagree, but that’s life.
Ronaldo is fantastic, a phenomenon, an amazing goal scorer, and his record in major championships, finals, league campaigns is there for all to see. He has dragged his teams to trophies at times, and is clearly the best player UTD have ever had (in ability, not time at club and influence - Bobby Charlton otherwise), and I would say Madrid have ever had. He is a legend, and will remain a legend, and will be looked back at as one of the best ever to grace the game through hard work, conditioning and determination.
Messi is also a phenomenon, and has also led his teams to many, many trophies, and through massive games, almost ‘singlehandedly’ at times. He will go down in history, as the greatest player for me, because of what else he does, in addition to Ronaldo. He creates more for others, and has contributed to more. He has the same determination, but this has come more naturally, but if people think he works less, they are in dreamland.
Personally, I think he is the best dribbler I have ever seen, the best free kick taker, the best passer, and the best goal scorer. He has also created more goals for others than anyone I can remember.
I loved Maradona, who was the best I had ever seen up to that point, (still young at the time!), and he was amazing, but for a shorter time than Messi. Pele, I have not seen, but when Messi overtakes his professional goal scoring record (not kick about in the park against his son goals), then as a goal scorer, you would have to see he is better, especially considering the level of competition.
Many will disagree, but that’s life.
Actually I voted Messi, so learn a lesson.
Just because someone asks a question that challenges your pre-conceived (and in the case of "pre assists", silly) ideas, don't assume - some of us can actually have a discussion and make our own minds up without being forced to by 'Team Ronnie' or 'Team Messi' disciples.
I voted for Ronaldo just to even it up.
I can't decide.
I can't decide.
I think generally discrediting pre-assists is much sillier. How many times is the pass that lead to an assist better than the assist and goal himself? Just think of City the Silvas or de Bruynes again play a defense splitting pass to Sane who then squares it to Sterling for an easy tap in.
I think we've seen that Ronaldo can carry a team all by himself (first in his last year with us and then last season with Madrid). Ronaldo wins trophies almost single-handedly Messi has always had better players (than Madrid's) around him even if sometime he wins games single-handedly
Messi almost had an unbeaten season single-handedly last year up until the one game he didnt play and they lost, hes continued to win no matter who is around him, treble with xavi iniesta, treble with neymar and suarez, and now on for a treble where hes pretty much carrying the side on his own.
Yeah, in the classic Barça/Pep system the most important pass of all is the one that splits the defence for one of the forwards to square for a tap in.
You’re arguing with people who think being the world’s greatest dribbler isn’t significant because dribbling often “doesn’t go anywhere” though. It’s a very simplistic understanding of football where things that don’t end with quantifiable stats don’t matter. You could try explaining to Cal how Messi’s dribbling drags defenders around, draws multiple players away from other forwards they’re marking, tires them physically and mentally and wins dead ball situations and yellow cards but he’s either too dense or too obsessed only with information that “proves” Ronaldo is the better player to properly process that information.
This is like everyone watch different Ronaldo. At least the one I watch doesn't win the games single handedly or win the trophies single handedly. On the other hand, Messi I watch wins the game almost on his own and he is always the significant contributor to any wins.
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