Messi has created a whole new tier, he is now the only one on tier one and the previous tier one players such as Pele, Maradonna and Cruyff are now tier two.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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See sports bible have this forum up for doubting Messi in the premier league. I still think Ronaldo has proven it in different countries and has been better for his national team, arguably a team with less talent than Argentina. I'm still amazed that we seen them at the same time. I'll never doubt eithers ability but I think the premier league is more physically demanding. I just wonder how Messi would react after rough tackles, can you imagine the doing those Burnley players would give him. It's fine scoring against United and Liverpool, he's naturally got the ability but the shit grounds in the FA cup where tackles are flying at him in January? That question mark will always be there for me. Messi has played in the best Barca teams in there history. I just question a brand new setting where be doesn't know the club or league. This discussion will go on for years.
Ths stats should not just consist of goals.
I have to agree. There will always be question marks over Messi until he plays away to either Stoke or Burnley.
Please note sarcasm.
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If you had any credibility posts like this would destroy it.So you're just going to argue in terms of hypothetical?
We'll see what he gets up to in the Copa, based on history he'll end up crying and quitting.
The poll was pathetic when it was open before. A solid 10-15% changing their votes after 1 good game from either player. Can see it happening again now.
That would be widely accepted when he has retired.
Messi needs to play in England to prove himself against Burnley or in the FA cup away to MK Dons?
Not the most important question mark to have hanging over you
Do you seriously think the most technically gifted player of all time will struggle against the hard tackles of Championship level journeymen when he’s spent years making the best defenders in the world look like absolute amateurs?
I was waiting for the punchline at the end of that post. It’s the most ridiculous “question mark” I’ve ever heard on this topic.
If david Silva an Sergio Aguero hace done it in the PL I don’t see how can anyone doubt Messi in that aspect. He’d walk the league.
I'm a massive Ronaldo fan, I love having him here at United.
But I'm sorry, Messi is the GOAT. He's unreal and on another planet, and always has been.
Ronaldo has rightfully won the personal accolades that he has, but Messi for me is the best player I've ever seen.
But I'm sorry, Messi is the GOAT. He's unreal and on another planet, and always has been.
Ronaldo has rightfully won the personal accolades that he has, but Messi for me is the best player I've ever seen.
Changed my vote back to Messi. Yes, I am a goldfish.
Slightly more serious, Messi has always been the better player, but Ronaldo is a bigger game player and has shown that he can do it in different scenarios.
Slightly more serious, Messi has always been the better player, but Ronaldo is a bigger game player and has shown that he can do it in different scenarios.
You cant be serious.
It’s a fine barometer for how knee jerk many of the folk are swinging their goat proclamations from one man to the other.
Imagine having an opinion that volatile.
You would think after this:
Plus this:
Which equals 26 goals versus only the top PL teams, the question of whether he could do it in the PL would no longer be asked.
Not that it's relevant in the first place because no player has any obligation, nor should feel any compunction, to play in different leagues.
Are the legacies of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes diminished because they only played for Man United? Of course not, this is a completely preposterous suggestion.
Imagine if I started a thread, and said "Giggs and Scholes are overrated because they only played in the Premier League, and they haven't proved that they could do it in the Bundesliga". Can you imagine the reaction? Rightly so, because it would be a statement of utter idiocy.
Messi has been the standout player in world football for over ten years, with relentless consistency, he's played multiple positions and now has a completely different role to the one that he started with, and he also excelled as an out-and-out striker and set unbreakable records.
He's been through countless team-mates, and is now playing in a completely different team to the one that he began with, he's played in multiple systems, with completely different tactics, under several different coaches.
And none of this has made any difference to his level of performance, which has always been simply in a different league to everyone else.
If he went to the PL and played for Man City, who would be the only club with any chance whatsoever of affording to buy him (which is a compelling reason that he can't leave anyway, plus Barcelona would move heaven and earth to keep him, he'd have to absolutely demand a transfer and sour his relationship with the club he loves, which would be utterly ridiculous), Messi would score more goals, and stand out more, than he does in Spain.
To suggest that because Messi has only played for Barcelona it somehow diminishes his legacy is just a non-argument, which wouldn't be applied to any other player. Baresi and Maldini were overrated because they only played for Milan. Ever heard that? No, because it would be f*cking stupid!
Plus this:
Which equals 26 goals versus only the top PL teams, the question of whether he could do it in the PL would no longer be asked.
Not that it's relevant in the first place because no player has any obligation, nor should feel any compunction, to play in different leagues.
Are the legacies of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes diminished because they only played for Man United? Of course not, this is a completely preposterous suggestion.
Imagine if I started a thread, and said "Giggs and Scholes are overrated because they only played in the Premier League, and they haven't proved that they could do it in the Bundesliga". Can you imagine the reaction? Rightly so, because it would be a statement of utter idiocy.
Messi has been the standout player in world football for over ten years, with relentless consistency, he's played multiple positions and now has a completely different role to the one that he started with, and he also excelled as an out-and-out striker and set unbreakable records.
He's been through countless team-mates, and is now playing in a completely different team to the one that he began with, he's played in multiple systems, with completely different tactics, under several different coaches.
And none of this has made any difference to his level of performance, which has always been simply in a different league to everyone else.
If he went to the PL and played for Man City, who would be the only club with any chance whatsoever of affording to buy him (which is a compelling reason that he can't leave anyway, plus Barcelona would move heaven and earth to keep him, he'd have to absolutely demand a transfer and sour his relationship with the club he loves, which would be utterly ridiculous), Messi would score more goals, and stand out more, than he does in Spain.
To suggest that because Messi has only played for Barcelona it somehow diminishes his legacy is just a non-argument, which wouldn't be applied to any other player. Baresi and Maldini were overrated because they only played for Milan. Ever heard that? No, because it would be f*cking stupid!
Thats a myth.
On the CL alone, where supposedly CR7 is way better, Messi has had way better performances than CR7. Remember Real Madrid in 2011, that legendary solo goal? Remember what he did to Boateng and Neuer in the semis of 2015? Both finals vs Manchester United? Vs Liverpool just 2 days ago? The goal vs Manchester United 2 weeks ago? All those were HUGE games and Messi was by far the stand out player, scoring legendary goals and assisting a few more.
In La Liga? All those games vs Real Madrid that he has been bossing since he was 17? Often deciding the title win too?
Copa del Rey finals? Remember that goal vs Bilbao? Of course you do, everyone does.
With Argentina too, they were one loss away from not reaching the world cup and Messi pulls off an amazing hattrick vs Peru securing the qualification. Vs Nigeria on the world cup he scored one of the best goals of the tournament. In 2014 he was voted the best player of the world cup FFS.
Now yes, he has failed a few times, like in that 2014 final, you are right, he wasnt at his best, or vs France last world cup. Vs Roma last year, etc. But every great player has lost a few times, because when you are a great player and you play for a great team, you tend to reach stages where you have to play against also another great team with great players, and naturally, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Maradona lost a lot of times, so did Pele. The so called "big game" master, CR7, couldnt touch the ball vs Uruguay on the last world cup. Once again, Uruguay. Its like he didnt even play, yet nobody says a thing.
Messi is 3 games away from winning his 3rd trebie, while being comfortably the by far best player of his team on those 3 times, being top scorer, top assister, top dribbler, top everything of not just his team, but all the teams of all the leagues. Seeing all those graphs showing the performances of the best players across all the leagues, and then seeing Messi on the far upper right corner, always there, alone, miles far above everyone else, the same graph season after season...
I mean i struggle to understand how could someone think that CR7 is equal or better than Messi, but thats ok, people are entitled to their own opinions i guess. With time im sure this wont even be a debate anymore, just as i dont think it will be a debate on whos the greatest of all time.
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How so? Is it not true that Messi has a record of crying and quitting after the Copa but never one of winning?
15/16 Real Madrid 3-0 Wolfsburg
16/17 Real Madrid 3-0 Atletico Madrid
17/18 Juventus 0-3 Real Madrid
13/14 Bayern Munich 0-4 Real Madrid
18/19 Juventus 3-0 Atletico Madrid
08/09 Arsenal 1-3 Manchester United
The CL alone where Messi has basically never matched any of the above Ronaldo performances.
Ronaldo scored a hat-trick against Sweden in the playoff to qualify for the WC, or did you conveniently forget that?
Ronaldo was the best player by far when he led Real Madrid to the CL 3-peat, remember even retaining it was thought to be nigh on impossible? Messi himself has tried many many times with better team mates and couldn't do it.
It has nothing to do with being defensive or on the Messi camp, it's just this ridiculous notion of Ronaldo's switch to the Serie A as him challenging himself is just that, ridiculous.
Wonder if people will change their vote back if Barca loses to Liverpool or Ajax/Spurs.
This argument again. Firstly, Messi is very strong for a player his size. Then have a look at the shortlist for PFA player of the year and you will see a host of small players (5 of the 6 infact). Bernardo particular is very physically light. Is he struggling in the PL because of it?
How did the midgets at City get on in the fa cup in February away at Newport, where the tackles were flying? Didnt they smash them for four?
Are Burnley the new flag bearers for the cold night at Stoke brigade?
The littluns at City have had no problems beating them, despite their physicality. City have won 7 and drawn 1 of their last 8 games, scoring 21 goals in those 8 games (conceding only 4). Kun Aguero scoring 8 of those goals in just 6 starts. Yet, you think that Leo would struggle against the same team that Kun bosses?
Bernardo even chipped in with 3 goals in those 8 games.
Why wouldn't Leo respond to rough challenges the way Hazard does? David Silva, Aguero? World class PL legends who have no problems with the PL roughness. Stick Leo right in the middle of this current City and he would destroy the PL. Current Aguero is on roughly 0.7 to 0.8 goals per game at City. Why wouldn't Leo better that? Is Kun better? Man City are more dominant in the PL than Barca in la liga. Leo would get more of the ball and get more goalscoring chances (look at what Salah did last year). There would also be less of a creative burden on him, so therefore less pressure.
Current Messi in current City would get 40 to 50 goals (heck injury free Kun would be close to 40 this season).
I'm saying he would be targeted heavily in a physical league. The Messi fan boys in here, give over. Point remains he never done it another league, played in a 2 man league for years and never done it on the international stage. There will never be a definitive answer to who is better. It's just my opinion that Ronaldo has done it in the 3 best league's in Europe, Messi hasn't.
You are relentless, aren't you? Messi "could have , should have , would have" done it in EPL. But the cold hard fact is he hasn't. With his talent he should have also won everything with the Argentina NT, but he hasn't, isn't it? So stop making hypothetical claims as alternate realities. If he somehow didn't play for Argentina ever, people like you would have made claims that he would have won 4 world cups with Argentina because he has scored 500 goals with Barca along with 400 assists. It simply doesn't work like that. Too many variables.
Messi is an amazing player and he is much more naturally gifted than Ronaldo, maybe second only to Maradona. But let the facts remain as facts.
Stop being this much defensive if you are so sure he is head and shoulders above Ronaldo
According to you it is, to me Ronaldo being successful in 3 countries and Internationally counts for something. His leadership qualities matter to me, for you it clearly don’t, fair enough that’s your choice. I find that attitude narrow minded, but I respect it, I really don’t see the problem.
The problem I do have is when people say “Messi could do it too, and do it better”, that’s a strawman argument, and just your opinion. I’m not saying he couldn’t, but the fact Ronaldo has is a pro for him, I’m not saying it’s a negative for Messi.
I can't really decide which is the better. Messi is more spectacular, but Ronnie has done it for clubs and country. Messi has done it for Barcelona only.
That being said, Maradona is the GOAT.
That being said, Maradona is the GOAT.
Only an unhinged Ronaldo fanboy weirdo would talk about a football treasure in such dismissive tones. There's no respect, admiration, nothing. Just hate for someone who outshines your idol. Hence your lack of credibility in any honest debate involving messi.
Holy. 61%.
Ronaldo has been outscored by a 36 year old in Italy. Messi has easily outscored him against English top 6 teams despite never playing in the league.
Barring simply playing in those leagues I dont see that Ronnie has actually done anything in them to put him up with Messi. That's no disrespect.
Messi is just better
Barring simply playing in those leagues I dont see that Ronnie has actually done anything in them to put him up with Messi. That's no disrespect.
Messi is just better
let's be real, even if Messi did go to another league, he'd obviously only go to those strongest clubs that can afford him and that leaves us with City and PSG. Bayern would never even consider him and neither would Juve I think. those who are now questioning his ability to adapt and shine at another club would most likely be the first ones who would say that looking great at already dominant team isn't that difficult. you wouldn't learn anything new about Messi in those clubs, yet those are the only clubs he would sign, not clubs like Inter or Arsenal.
Seriously? I respect Messi as one of the greatest ever players, but I hate Barca and am indifferent towards Argentina, so why should I ever want him to do well (except against Scousers?)
You can call me biased, but I'm not sure what does it have to with "credibility"?
How many times has Messi dismantled Arsenal and how often has Ronaldo played against English teams since he left United?
Wolfsburg? Come on. I only mentioned semifinal and final games, and you bring up Wolfsburg. Then im going to bring up the half a dozen times Messi "molested" Arsenal, when he taught City a football lesson, Chelsea, Bayern in 2008(4 goals), etc.
And btw, i never said CR7 was a CL choker and wasnt a big game player. I was just laughing at how some people could consider CR7 to be the best player on big games when clearly he wasnt, as i clearly demonstrated in the examples i posted above.
CR7 has never came close to the level Messi performed in the matches i posted above. CR7 hasnt never come close to Messi vs Bayern 2015 or Messi vs Madrid 2011, vs United 2011. just not even close. All those are semis or finals. Lets not even talk about all the final and semifinals CR7 has basically been a passenger, which is pretty much all of them bar one or two.
Just answer this: Who has played better on the semifinals and finals of the CL?
He has 26 goals in 33 games against the English top 6. I dread to think what he would score against the rest.
I've always been fascinated by the fact that this is even a discussion. Those who say "Oh, let's just enjoy these two players as they're both so good" are just as bad, since by doing so they imply that Ronaldo is close to Messi's level.
Again, I'm well aware he has an excellent record against English CL sides, just pointing out that Barca have drawn English sides (mainly Arsenal) far more often in the last 10 years than Real have.
It's easy to come up with biased stats, we can compare that records against top German/Italian sides and Ronaldo will come out well on top.
If you say he is not then your you have no clue what you're talking about. If you think one is better fine but to say 1 is so far ahead of the other when they have literally been neck and neck in there career is just plain stupidity at this point.
They call us Messi fanboys por making that kind of statement. It´s unreal that they are even compared, Ronaldo is one of the greatest scorers ever, which is great, but Messi is in another league with Maradona and Pelé.
He was by far the best player? We can just take a simple breakdown of stats to show that is not true by any means.
2015/2016 La liga + CL:
Messi: 32 goals, 17 assists. (Messi was injured a lot this season and missed like 13 games IIRC)
Ronaldo: 51 goals, 15 assists.
2016/2017 La liga + CL:
Messi: 48 goals, 11 assists.
Ronaldo 37 goals, 12 assists.
2017/2018 La liga + CL:
Messi: 40 goals, 14 assists
Ronaldo 41 goals, 7 assists.
He has worse individual performance from a stats perspective in 2/3 seasons and only a better one in the season Messi was injured a lot. Not sure how you can with a straight face say he was "By far" the better player.
The thing with you, Cal, is that you're so dogmatic and unreasonably biased. Your dislike for Messi is so clear with demeaning comments such as "crying and quitting" and hyperbolic statements as "The 2nd best player in the world occasionally showing his worth in the CL after 3 years of doing feck-all.
"You decide what qualifies as better based on whatever Ronaldo does better on. If Messi and Ronaldo swapped achievements and stats these last 3 years and Messi won 3x CLs in a row, you'd argue that CL is a knockout competition with a lot of luck involved (which it is) and Ronaldo is clearly the superior player for his domestic record of 3 Copas, better individual stats and 2 league titles.
But because you're so dogmatic in your worship for Ronaldo, CL is now the one deciding factor for what qualifies as the best player. I'll grant you that Ronaldo has had better CL performances these last 3 years, but you act as if Ronaldo himself was the one who dragged a rugged and awful Real to every CL title. Ronaldo had plenty of games where he wasn't good but where Real Madrid pulled through as a team.
Finally, honestly embarrassing that you think 2 headers and a penalty is better than what Messi produced vs Bayern in 2014/2015 or what he did yesterday.
They are so great that IMHO, it all comes down to one's preference. I prefer Messi but I defo understand those who prefer Ronaldo.
The most important thing for me is not to be deluded and twist facts.
The most important thing for me is not to be deluded and twist facts.
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