Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

Do you see any Messi supporter claim he was good? I don't. People say the assist or whatever you want to call it was great but he was bad apart from that. If anything that supports the eye test. Because I've seen Ronaldo having even worse games countless times but then he scores a goal and everyone creamed their pants. Vice versa that's obviously not the case because no Messi supportes in here are denying he was shit yesterday - from what I've seen (watched the conference) it was by far his worst match this season.

That’s just not true though. Remember last year’s match at Stamford Bridge?

Got shut down by Chelsea but then scored the equalizer at a big moment and it went from a bad performance to a good one. That’s what scoring big goals tends to do, for any player ever.

 

[soccergirl]

Juventus fan here, and I can tell you, it alot harder to play being in Ronaldo position than Messi, just look at God dam-n Juventus midfield, it basically non-existent.

If you watch Serie A, you will see there times where Ronaldo have to drop into the midfield himself to get the ball and get the job done himself, because Juve midfield aren't doing their da-mn job. Look, it totally unacceptable when you arguebly have one of the best striker on your roster, yet you not helping him out and force him to get the job done by himself most of the time.

Now look at Barca midfield and look at all those good players Messi surrounded with, to help at least get the ball to him so he can work his so call magic.

I feel bad for Ronaldo, at Juventus, he pretty much a one man, where he has to rely on himself alone to get the job done.
Just look at the second legs against Atletico, or in fact the match against Ajax last night. IF, only IF Ronaldo have the team who can help him like how Barca help Messi, then we can fairly say who will score more than who.

I can't pick who better, but I always thought Ronaldo in a harder position. And he more branch out, while Messi is in his own little bubble protected by Barcelona his whole entire senior career.

However, I always thought Messi is better with his legs, while Ronaldo is better with headers. If it come to "aerial duel" in the air, Ronaldo will always win.

I think both are good. I just think Ronaldo has a harder life in football than Messi. Ronaldo he more of an "individual" player, while Messi is more of a "group" player.

 

[pregra]

Messi was the best player on the pitch before Smalling assaulted him

 

[Hulksmash]

I think Ronaldo is much better big game Player. If he has a bad day he score 1 goal and if he has a good day then he score a hattrick

 

[MrEleson]

Messi was the best player on the pitch before Smalling assaulted him

I disagree but you’re basically saying that all it takes is a little roughing up for Messi to not perform? What would he make of that sort of thing playing in England every week then

 

[balaks]

One quiet game and he is now crap? Nice one. The nose injury definitely affected him.

 

[Schneckerl]

I disagree but you’re basically saying that all it takes is a little roughing up for Messi to not perform? What would he make of that sort of thing playing in England every week then

Hilarious to observe the English reaction calling it a "good old British tackle" or whatever.
If Busquets (Alba, Suarez...) did that to an English player he would be called a dirty rat and they'd call for his head instead of praising him.

 

[VP]

I'm delighted Messi was poor because it kept United in the game - but some of you lot seem to be happier because it allows you to gloat on here. Seems very strange.

Genuine question to the Ronaldo fanboys on here, would you rather United win the CL or Ronaldo?

 

[MrEleson]

Hilarious to observe the English reaction calling it a "good old British tackle" or whatever.
If Busquets (Alba, Suarez...) did that to an English player he would be called a dirty rat and they'd call for his head instead of praising him.

Never labelled it as such at all. I'm just saying that players get roughed up all the time and I don't necessarily see it as a reason for him not to perform for the rest of the game (even though I don't think he was that good before the challenge).

 

[Rito]

Do you see any Messi supporter claim he was good? I don't. People say the assist or whatever you want to call it was great but he was bad apart from that. If anything that supports the eye test. Because I've seen Ronaldo having even worse games countless times but then he scores a goal and everyone creamed their pants. Vice versa that's obviously not the case because no Messi supportes in here are denying he was shit yesterday - from what I've seen (watched the conference) it was by far his worst match this season.

That was of course a over-the-top exaggeration. i wrote it to counter some of the poster's continuous harping on the opinion of "the mythical Messi contribution in every game, even when he doesn't score or assist " and "Ronaldo being a glorified poacher who adds nothing unless he scores."

Yesterday, Ronaldo's goal is a perfect example of his off-the-ball movement, speed, stamina and heading ability. But since he didn't have to dribble past even one player to score, the stereotypical Messi supporter will most probably dismiss it as an ordinary tap-in.

 

[Zehner]

Never labelled it as such at all. I'm just saying that players get roughed up all the time and I don't necessarily see it as a reason for him not to perform for the rest of the game (even though I don't think he was that good before the challenge).

What a bullshit. How many times are players in the CL bleeding like that?

That's the typical "oh, we English footballers are soo tough yada yada" talk. No player gets fouled as often as Messi and no team in England is even remotely as physical and dirty as Atletico, one of his favourite opponents. The EPL hasn't had a player as dirty as Pepe or Ramos in years, too, and Messi schooled them in almost every match they faced.

God, these arguments.

 

[Rito]

What a bullshit. How many times are players in the CL bleeding like that?

That's the typical "oh, we English footballers are soo tough yada yada" talk. No player gets fouled as often as Messi and no team in England is even remotely as physical and dirty as Atletico, one of his favourite opponents. The EPL hasn't had a player as dirty as Pepe or Ramos in years, too, and Messi schooled them in almost every match they faced.

God, these arguments.

Then don't dish out the excuse that his game got affected due to the whack he got early on.You haven't specifically, but it has been already said 3-4 times. CL QF and Messi haven't been the best of friends for quite some time now. It can obviously change next week, given how good he has been over the years.

 

[2mufc0]

He's become much easier to stop if you can cut off his supply, he's lost his explosive pace and is very lathatargic when his team are on the back foot. Younger Messi would destroy you on the counter but now you can just leave him up the pitch and not worry about him. Can only see his physical declining more as the years go on.

 

[EireRed_GS]

Even though he was quiet last night after big Mike Smalldini nailed him, Its still Messi for me. He has been absolutely immense this last few weeks.. & was bound to run into a bad game. Thank christ it was against us.

 

[MrEleson]

What a bullshit. How many times are players in the CL bleeding like that?

That's the typical "oh, we English footballers are soo tough yada yada" talk. No player gets fouled as often as Messi and no team in England is even remotely as physical and dirty as Atletico, one of his favourite opponents. The EPL hasn't had a player as dirty as Pepe or Ramos in years, too, and Messi schooled them in almost every match they faced.

God, these arguments.

Messi has had rougher matches from opponents and still played well so I personally don’t believe that’s why he underperformed against United. He wasn’t that great before that incident imo

 

[Bole Top]

imo, he was neither good, neither bad - just reserved like the rest of the team. he did that great cross, then Smalling broke his nose and was visibly shaken for the rest of the half. in second half he started couple of counter attacks, had that freekick and that was pretty much it, not only from him but from Barca in general.

they were obviously satisfied with preserving the lead and their tactics wasn't that different to those in games vs Lyon, Chelsea and Roma. the fact their highest rated players on pretty much every site are defenders speaks for itself. even their subs were all defensive players. that's how they play these knockout games under Valverde and it's difficult for attacker to shine in them. time will tell whether it's a way to go for Barca because if you put aside that disaster against Roma which might be just a freak result, away draws vs Lyon and Chelsea and yesterday's win against us are good results after all.

Valverde is certainly more similar to Allegri than to previous Barca managers, but Allegri has Matuidi and Bentancur so he can stick to his "safe" football. Valverde also tries to be more conservative in these tough away games but doesn't have that type of players. instead he does it with Coutinho, Rakitic, Arthur and Busquets, so it always looks a bit strange and they're vulnerable to sheer pace and strength. what we failed to do yesterday because we simply lack the quality, Liverpool most likely won't. that is, if Barca indeed finish the job on Nou Camp.

 

[Zehner]

That was of course a over-the-top exaggeration. i wrote it to counter some of the poster's continuous harping on the opinion of "the mythical Messi contribution in every game, even when he doesn't score or assist " and "Ronaldo being a glorified poacher who adds nothing unless he scores."

Yesterday, Ronaldo's goal is a perfect example of his off-the-ball movement, speed, stamina and heading ability. But since he didn't have to dribble past even one player to score, the stereotypical Messi supporter will most probably dismiss it as an ordinary tap-in.

I've not seen anybody dismiss that goal, you? It's a good goal that he initiated himself. You make up stuff and then argue against it.

Then don't dish out the excuse that his game got affected due to the whack he got early on.You haven't specifically, but it has been already said 3-4 times. CL QF and Messi haven't been the best of friends for quite some time now. It can obviously change next week, given how good he has been over the years.

First of all, I didn't do that. Second, a broken nose (if it is broken, haven't read that) or at least cut bleeding like that is of course an excuse for your performance dropping a bit. How on earth is it not? Even a freaking boxer's performance drops after he takes such a hit. But that wasn't even my point. My point was that the argument that he would regularly have to endure that if he played in the EPL is just bullshit because such stuff happens maybe once or twice in 50 EPL games to a player. It's just this dumb "oh the EPL is so tough" nonsense again. All while the record setting EPL team at the moment dominates every other team with strong giants like Bernardo Silva, David Silva, Raheem Sterling and Gündogan in the team.

 

[Pocho]

Still can't get over the amazing QF performance by Messi. That cross for Suarez was out of this world stuff and absolutely shows why he's the GOAT. This was a perfect example where he literally does nothing but contributes immensely to the game as per the eye-test. 1 assist, 1 key pass, continuing after 1 bloody nose; absolutely the stuff of legends. All this while playing against worldies like Mctominay, Smalling, Lindelof, etc. And people still wonder how he would have performed in EPL, week-in, week-out when he's "dismantling" Engllish teams over the years.

Ronaldo, on the other hand, just scored a goal. Meh. Glorified Inzaghi.

First reasonable post in your life

 

[Schneckerl]

Never labelled it as such at all.

Alright. I've seen many comments on the caf like that though.

I'm just saying that players get roughed up all the time and I don't necessarily see it as a reason for him not to perform for the rest of the game (even though I don't think he was that good before the challenge).

It's hard to tell the severity of an injury and if it's a reason for lack of performance. He regulary gets roughed up like that in Classicos and did well afterwards. I'm not sure if he was better before the challenge either, so wouldn't use it as an excuse.

 

[Marshal]

Probably the incident made his vision or breathing worse during the rest of the match. I mean I'm not saying it was a very violent one or anything but I think it's normal that his performance was lower after it, specially if it´s confirmed that he has a nassal fissure

 

[Hala Madrid]

Juventus fan here, and I can tell you, it alot harder to play being in Ronaldo position than Messi, just look at God dam-n Juventus midfield, it basically non-existent.

If you watch Serie A, you will see there times where Ronaldo have to drop into the midfield himself to get the ball and get the job done himself, because Juve midfield aren't doing their da-mn job. Look, it totally unacceptable when you arguebly have one of the best striker on your roster, yet you not helping him out and force him to get the job done by himself most of the time.

Now look at Barca midfield and look at all those good players Messi surrounded with, to help at least get the ball to him so he can work his so call magic.

I feel bad for Ronaldo, at Juventus, he pretty much a one man, where he has to rely on himself alone to get the job done.
Just look at the second legs against Atletico, or in fact the match against Ajax last night. IF, only IF Ronaldo have the team who can help him like how Barca help Messi, then we can fairly say who will score more than who.

I can't pick who better, but I always thought Ronaldo in a harder position. And he more branch out, while Messi is in his own little bubble protected by Barcelona his whole entire senior career.

However, I always thought Messi is better with his legs, while Ronaldo is better with headers. If it come to "aerial duel" in the air, Ronaldo will always win.

I think both are good. I just think Ronaldo has a harder life in football than Messi. Ronaldo he more of an "individual" player, while Messi is more of a "group" player.

Thumbs up!
This is the most spot on post I've read on this thread about this topic, and it was short (compare to the essays I usually see here), but it was very accurate

 

[Bole Top]

Second, a broken nose (if it is broken, haven't read that) or at least cut bleeding like that is of course an excuse for your performance dropping a bit.

it wasn't confirmed it's broken, but I just can't find a proper word atm.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...d-Champions-League-broken-nose-Chris-Smalling

don't know why some talk about it like it was a cramp or something. Smalling is huge and hit like that would've shaken Jaap Stam, let alone guy who's 1.70.

 

[matt10000]

Messi is a football genius Ronaldo is football machine !

 

[KirkDuyt]

I understand the point of it being harder to play for Juventus than for Barca in their current set up (or even Ajax for that matter). But isn't that in part because neither Mandzukic nor Ronaldo contribute a lot in the form of creativity? Playing for Ajax would be shite too if you'd play both Huntelaar and Dolberg up front. That's why they stack their team with little feckers that can play a pass and make a dribble.

 

[kouroux]

Never labelled it as such at all. I'm just saying that players get roughed up all the time and I don't necessarily see it as a reason for him not to perform for the rest of the game (even though I don't think he was that good before the challenge).

It all depends on how and where the player was "roughed up".

 

[Cal?]

I'm delighted Messi was poor because it kept United in the game - but some of you lot seem to be happier because it allows you to gloat on here. Seems very strange.

Genuine question to the Ronaldo fanboys on here, would you rather United win the CL or Ronaldo?

Messi being his usual self in a CL QF kept United in the game and we get to gloat, what's not to like?

I'd rather United win the CL, obviously. But if we go out, Juve is the 2nd choice.

 

[Peyroteo]

I understand the point of it being harder to play for Juventus than for Barca in their current set up (or even Ajax for that matter). But isn't that in part because neither Mandzukic nor Ronaldo contribute a lot in the form of creativity? Playing for Ajax would be shite too if you'd play both Huntelaar and Dolberg up front. That's why they stack their team with little feckers that can play a pass and make a dribble.

Do you think if they play with Costa and Dybala instead of Mandzukic and Ronaldo they go on to dominate possession and control the midfield instead?

It's the same, they brought on 2 small technical players in Dybala and Costa and it didn't stop Cancelo from managing to pass to the opposition every time he had the ball in the second half... possession and midfield control remained the same. Lack of ability of the midfield and defense in escaping Ajax's pressure coupled with Allegri not wanting them to take big risks was what led to the game turning out the way it did.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Do you think if they play with Costa and Dybala instead of Mandzukic and Ronaldo they go on to dominate possession and control the midfield instead?

It's the same, they brought on 2 small technical players in Dybala and Costa and it didn't stop Cancelo from managing to pass to the opposition every time he had the ball in the second half... possession and midfield control remained the same. Lack of ability of the midfield and defense in escaping Ajax's pressure coupled with Allegri not wanting them to take big risks was what led to the game turning out the way it did.

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just saying Ronaldo and Mandzukic are part of the lack of creativity in Juve's team, not victims of it.

 

[kouroux]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just saying Ronaldo and Mandzukic are part of the lack of creativity in Juve's team, not victims of it.

Yeah that's actually a good point. Just like Messi is also a big reason as to why Barca can retain the ball so easily.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Yeah that's actually a good point. Just like Messi is also a big reason as to why Barca can retain the ball so easily.

I don't mean it as a slight on Ronaldo either, the guy is 34, it's smart to conserve energy especially when he still scores hattricks when his team needs him.

 

[kouroux]

I don't mean it as a slight on Ronaldo either, the guy is 34, it's smart to conserve energy especially when he still scores hattricks when his team needs him.

I agree with this. The 2 of them are so different it's fascinating when you think about it.

 

[Peyroteo]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just saying Ronaldo and Mandzukic are part of the lack of creativity in Juve's team, not victims of it.

Ronaldo is by far the most creative player in the Juventus team...

Madrid dominated everyone in midfield a couple of years ago and that was down to Modric and Kroos, now Juve can't do it and it's Ronaldo not allowing them to because he has the technical ability of Dolberg and Huntelaar rather than helping them by being better at keeping the ball, escaping pressure and creating chances than any of the other Juventus forwards

Trade De Jong and Schone for Matuidi and Bentancur and the game goes the opposite way. That's what the job of the midfield is. Barcelona can dominate the midfield and dominate possession because of their excellent midfield, technical ability in defense and midfield and because of their excellent tactical know how in building up play. Not because Leo Messi is good on the ball.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Ronaldo is by far the most creative player in the Juventus team...

Madrid dominated everyone in midfield a couple of years ago and that was down to Modric and Kroos, now Juve can't do it and it's Ronaldo not allowing them to because he has the technical ability of Dolberg and Huntelaar rather than helping them by being better at keeping the ball, escaping pressure and creating chances than any of the other Juventus forwards

Trade De Jong and Schone for Matuidi and Bentancur and the game goes the opposite way. That's what the job of the midfield is. Barcelona can dominate the midfield and dominate possession because of their excellent midfield, technical ability in defense and midfield and because of their excellent tactical know how in building up play. Not because Leo Messi is good on the ball.

You are saying that Messi's ability is not important in Barcelona's possession play? Come on now.

Also, if Ronaldo is the most creative player in Juve's team, they really REALLY need to sign some creative players or we have a different definition of the term creative.

Also also also, are the strawman arguments really necessary? I'm not saying he has the technical ability of Dolberg or Huntelaar and I never mentioned Madrid. Ronaldo was obviously the biggest reason Madrid won the things they did. It's this kind of fecking zealotry on both sides that makes this debate so fecking tedious,

 

[kouroux]

Ronaldo is by far the most creative player in the Juventus team...

Madrid dominated everyone in midfield a couple of years ago and that was down to Modric and Kroos, now Juve can't do it and it's Ronaldo not allowing them to because he has the technical ability of Dolberg and Huntelaar rather than helping them by being better at keeping the ball, escaping pressure and creating chances than any of the other Juventus forwards

Trade De Jong and Schone for Matuidi and Bentancur and the game goes the opposite way. That's what the job of the midfield is. Barcelona can dominate the midfield and dominate possession because of their excellent midfield, technical ability in defense and midfield and because of their excellent tactical know how in building up play. Not because Leo Messi is good on the ball.

They've also gotten older and Zidane left them. It's not just about Ronaldo that their performance levels massively dropped. Even last year with him, they weren't as dominant but still managed to win the CL. They were already on the decline. You cannot just attribute it all to Cristiano leaving in all fairness.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Not going add anything new to this debate except pose the question I asked myself. I have an average team and I need a goalscorer, who do I pick?

Ronaldo every day.

SAF said Messi is probably the greatest ever player but Ronaldo would get a hat trick playing for Doncaster. Taking into account the rest of your team might not contain some of the best players who can play a system to get the best out of Messi, that's why I'd take Ronaldo.

 

[Peyroteo]

Also, if Ronaldo is the most creative player in Juve's team, they really REALLY need to sign some creative players or we have a different definition of the term creative.

Well, they clearly don't need to as it's working out fine. In this Juve team he dribbles, drops deep, he's the one responsible for connecting the midfield to the attack, all those things you guys love and he didn't have to do in Madrid often because he had Benzema next to him. Now with Mandzukic he does all of that yet somehow he still gets treated as if he was Inzaghi reborn with the Gerd Muller comparisons. Last year they played Higuain-Dybala-Costa-Bernardeschi and it was worse than this season from a creative, possession and build up standpoint. Tottenham went to play away at Juve last season and had 67% possession for example. That's how they play, has feck all to do with having Mario Mandzukic upfront and it certainly has feck all to do with Ronaldo somehow hindering them from a creative standpoint.

Putting Ronaldo on the same bag with a player like Mario Mandzukic from a technical and creative standpoint is simply ridiculous. As is the idea that replacing Mandzukic and Ronaldo with Dybala and Costa upfront would increase Juventus' creativity and help them control the midfield rather than do the complete opposite. Not only is Ronaldo miles better technically than someone like Mandzukic, he's better at retaining the ball and creating something than any of the small technical players Juventus has in Dybala or Costa. Trade Neres, Tadic or Ziyech for Ronaldo yesterday and Ajax become better on the ball, more creative and more dominant, not less.

You are saying that Messi's ability is not important in Barcelona's possession play? Come on now.

Messi's technical ability helps Barcelona keep the ball but it's in no way responsible or has a high degree of importance to the way they build the play out from the back, escape the opponent's high pressure and dominate the midfield. You're giving him credit for the work Pique, Lenglet, Busquets, Rakitic and Arthur do. Even Ter Stegen is more important when it comes to that, if Juve had a goalkeeper with the technical ability to play out of the back they wouldn't hoof it up and they wouldn't play Mandzukic so much for example.

Trade Matuidi for De Jong in last year's match and instead of getting 40% possession, they get 60%, instead of getting one and a half chances all game, Ronaldo gets 4 or 5, instead of getting the ball 60 meters from goal, he starts getting it 30 meters from goal, etc.. it's easier to play as a forward in those circumstances. Doesn't mean it's better for the team overall though.

 

[kouroux]

Not going add anything new to this debate except pose the question I asked myself. I have an average team and I need a goalscorer, who do I pick?

Ronaldo every day.

SAF said Messi is probably the greatest ever player but Ronaldo would get a hat trick playing for Doncaster. Taking into account the rest of your team might not contain some of the best players who can play a system to get the best out of Messi, that's why I'd take Ronaldo.

Would Doncaster create anything for him ?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Well, they clearly don't need to as it's working out fine. In this Juve team he dribbles, drops deep, he's the one responsible for connecting the midfield to the attack, all those things you guys love and he didn't have to do in Madrid often yet somehow he still gets treated as if he was Inzaghi reborn with the Gerd Muller comparisons. Last year they played Higuain-Dybala-Costa-Bernardeschi and it was worse than this season from a creative, possession and build up standpoint. Tottenham went to play away at Juve last season and had 67% possession for example. That's how they play, has feck all to do with having Mario Mandzukic upfront and it certainly has feck all to do with Ronaldo somehow hindering them from a creative standpoint.

Putting Ronaldo on the same bag with a player like Mario Mandzukic from a technical and creative standpoint is simply ridiculous. As is the idea that replacing Mandzukic and Ronaldo with Dybala and Costa upfront would increase Juventus' creativity and help them control the midfield rather than do the complete opposite. Not only is Ronaldo miles better technically than someone like Mandzukic, he's better at retaining the ball and creating something than any of the small technical players Juventus has in Dybala or Costa. Trade Neres, Tadic or Ziyech for Ronaldo yesterday and Ajax become better on the ball, more creative and more dominant, not less.

Messi's technical ability helps Barcelona keep the ball but it's in no way responsible or has a high degree of importance to the way they build the play out from the back, escape the opponent's high pressure and dominate the midfield. You're giving him credit for the work Busquets, Rakitic and Arthur do.

Neres maybe, Tadic or Ziyech, no fecking way. Just no way whatsoever. Not only is Ronaldo not that type of player, you said yourself that it's not the way Juve play. Ajax would probably have 5 times as many shots on goal though. Yesterday Ronaldo did absolutely nothing, but lose the ball to De Ligt and score. I'd say the Inzaghi comparison is quite apt there.

Also, you say Messi is not important for Barcelona's build up play, but at the same time say Ronaldo is very important connecting the midfield to the attack? That seems like a rather skewed view of their roles. Take the Atletico match as an example where Ronaldo made the hattrick. That's his strength, he scores the big goals, but there too I cannot remember anything, but his goals.

Also I know this is the Messi vs Ronaldo thread but my first post was solely focused on Ronaldo without comparing him to Messi.

Also, who is "you guys"? Dutch people? Feyenoord fans? Adult white men?

 

[MrEleson]

Take the Atletico match as an example where Ronaldo made the hattrick. That's his strength, he scores the big goals, but there too I cannot remember anything, but his goals.

Ronaldo did much more than score. It’s probably cause you already have this idea of him being this poacher type player that it’s hotwired into your brain and you simply don’t see the other things he does. He completed the most dribbles in that home game against Atletico and was a constant outlet all over the attaching 3rd. He initiated the play for both his 2nd and 3rd goals respectively.

Look how deep he starts off on the LW here in the 52nd minute and the skill he uses to beat his man:

https://www.clippituser.tv/c/rkkdbm

 

[KirkDuyt]

Ronaldo did much more than score. It’s probably cause you already have this idea of him being this poacher type player that it’s hotwired into your brain and you simply don’t see the other things he does. He completed the most dribbles in that home game against Atletico and was a constant outlet all over the attaching 3rd. He initiated the play for both his 2nd and 3rd goals respectively.

Look how deep he starts off on the LW here in the 52nd minute and the skill he uses to beat his man:

https://www.clippituser.tv/c/rkkdbm

Who's saying Ronaldo can't beat a man? As I said, different definition of creativity. Theo Walcott can beat a man with the best of them given some space, but he's hardly a creative player.

Problem is you can't praise Ronaldo for poaching a game in which he's largely invisible without being bombarded with comments about him being the most creativest player in history. He's fecking not. He's an amazing football player and the most successful player in the history of the game, but it's not because of his playmaking abilities.