Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

And what exactly makes him better at football? No things like "clutch", team trophies, multiple countries, awards and all the other mental or off the pitch stuff. What makes you think he is better at the actual sport? Which abilities convince you that he's the better football player?

Because I really don't see anything except for headersband extreme long range shooting (30+ meters) where he beats Messi. And the latter is rather irrelevant since it makes up maybe 0.5% of goals.

Off the ball movement (which is the main cause for 90% of goals and chances), athleticism, hold up play, twofootedness, heading, crossing, long range threat, impact on defensive and offensive set pieces, wing play, counterattacking, pressing (even if he’s not great at it), adaptability, verticality, physical presence, speed over large distances, playing with his back to goal, etc..

And before you say it because it’s always your go-to reply.... no, the fact I consider Ronaldo better than Messi does not mean I rate heading ability over dribbling for example, it doesn’t mean I rate crossing over passing or that I rate physicality over technique on the ball. I just think there’s a much smaller gap between them technically than there is in the mental and physical part of the game.

Even in games like FIFA or FM they divide a player’s attributes in technical attributes, physical attributes and mental attributes yet you want football to be all about the technical ones because you’ve created this world for yourself where football is a different sport.

What you fail to understand about football is that, for example, Ronaldo’s ability to score from crosses which he’s probably the best player ever at it, isn’t something that impacts the game via goals only. It gets the best out of the wide players, it forces the defense to defend the full width of the pitch, it opens up the middle and gives more space to every other player, it makes it a lot easier to get to goalscoring areas, it opens up space for others inside the box, etc.. the main impact he’ll have isn’t the goals, it’s on the game itself and the way the teams are set up.

You can’t use stats to measure these things, stats measure 10% of a player’s impact on the game. The rest are intangibles and it’s why winning trophies is not irrelevant when talking about a player’s quality as long as you take into consideration the circumstances around them.

 

[Zehner]

Off the ball movement (which is the main cause for 90% of goals and chances), athleticism, hold up play, twofootedness, heading, crossing, long range threat, impact on defensive and offensive set pieces, wing play, counterattacking, pressing (even if he’s not great at it), adaptability, verticality, physical presence, speed over large distances, playing with his back to goal, etc..

And before you say it because it’s always your go-to reply.... no, the fact I consider Ronaldo better than Messi does not mean I rate heading ability over dribbling for example, it doesn’t mean I rate crossing over passing or that I rate physicality over technique on the ball. I just think there’s a much smaller gap between them technically than there is in the mental and physical part of the game.

Even in games like FIFA or FM they divide a player’s attributes in technical attributes, physical attributes and mental attributes yet you want football to be all about the technical ones.

What you fail to understand about football is that, for example, Ronaldo’s ability to score from crosses which he’s probably the best player ever at it, isn’t something that impacts the game via goals only. It gets the best out of the wide players, it forces the defense to defend the full width of the pitch, it opens up the middle and gives more space to every other player, it makes it a lot easier to get to goalscoring areas, it opens up space for others inside the box, etc.. the main impact he’ll have isn’t the goals, it’s on the game itself and the way the teams are set up.

You can’t use stats to measure these things, stats measure 10% of a player’s impact on the game. The rest are intangibles and it’s why winning trophies is not irrelevant when talking about a player’s quality as long as you take into consideration the circumstances around them.

He's not better off the ball, he's not better at pressing and he is certainly not better at crossing. Especially lately Messi has scored some great goals with his right foot. Long range is true if you define it as 30+ meters. From around 20 Messi is definitely the better finisher. So it ultimately comes down to athleticism.

And no, I don't fail to understand that this has an impact on the tactical setup and how the opponent has to adapt tobthe presence of a player. But this is also true for Messi. Even more so since you have to assign man markers on him whereever he moves while Ronaldo requires no special treatment if he's not in the penalty era. It is not uncommon that teams try to isolate Messi by constantly having three to four players around him when he sets a foot in the final third. You dismiss that and simultaneously pointbout that Cristiano essentially keeps the CBs attention and creates room for the wingers?

The bolded part is completely ridiculous IMO. As good as Ronaldo is, technically there are lightyears between them. You act almost as if Messi is the Karius of all time greats.

 

[Peyroteo]

He's not better off the ball, he's not better at pressing and he is certainly not better at crossing. Especially lately Messi has scored some great goals with his right foot. Long range is true if you define it as 30+ meters. From around 20 Messi is definitely the better finisher. So it ultimately comes down to athleticism.

Saying Ronaldo isn't better than Messi off the ball is the same as saying Messi isn't a better passer than Ronaldo. It's such a wrong and biased statement there's nothing I can argue against it other than calling it stupid. You're talking about the best off the ball player in the history of the sport and comparing it to someone who's one of the most static players in the world...

He is better at pressing, he is a better crosser of the ball and has been one of the best crossers in football for 15 years.
It's so pointless to argue against someone who doesn't even remotely care about the truth. If someone came here and argued Ronaldo was a better player because he was a better dribbler and a better passer... there's nothing you can argue back rather than laugh at it.

And no, I don't fail to understand that this has an impact on the tactical setup and how the opponent has to adapt tobthe presence of a player. But this is also true for Messi. Even more so since you have to assign man markers on him whereever he moves while Ronaldo requires no special treatment if he's not in the penalty era. It is not uncommon that teams try to isolate Messi by constantly having three to four players around him when he sets a foot in the final third. You dismiss that and simultaneously pointbout that Cristiano essentially keeps the CBs attention and creates room for the wingers?

Messi needs the ball to affect the game in those instances while Ronaldo doesn't which leads to the team funneling their game through him and becoming one-dimensional more often than not against teams of a similar level. They don't put 3 or 4 players on him, they put one and vary depending on where he is usually... so no, the benefits to the team aren't in any way comparable.

The bolded part is completely ridiculous IMO. As good as Ronaldo is, technically there are lightyears between them. You act almost as if Messi is the Karius of all time greats.

That's just not even close to being true, any of it.

 

[MJJ]

Four years, so we begin with:-

2013-2014- Madrid first choice midfield was Di maria, Khedira/Alonso and Modric. Kroos was not even signed this year.
2014-2015-Casemiro was sent out on loan, Modric wasn't a starter making only 25 appearances and the best midfield in the world was the Juve diamond.
2015-2016- First year the trio really started playing together. I would still have a 31 year old iniesta ahead of the trio and pogba/veratti are the same level as kroos who hadn't broken out yet.
2016-2017- The year they were undisputed best midfield in the world, reflected in the UEFA votes too.
2017-2018- Modric and KDB are the two stand out midfielders with kroos/casemiro still turning it up occasionally but not much between the latter two and somebody like veratti.

So which four years is this?

@Zehner I see you have dropped this argument, so in which four years were the trio the best midfield in the world?

 

[MJJ]

Nice dodge. How can talking about what footballing abilities someone has be ignoring football? I mean Ronaldo fans were making these arguments previously e.g. he's better at heading, shooting, goal scoring instinct and replaced all this with fantasy heroic mentality stuff. The eye test is enough.



I've seen this type of response on this thread twice now. How is comparing a freestyler to Messi an honest response? Remember that time he did a handstand and passed it to Rakitic? ridiculous!

Messi has won more. Even recently with Ronaldos success in the champions league, you can't ignore how badly he's done in the league, which means he's worse than Messi most of the time.

I mean if you basically want to discount winning, tactics, etc from football and reduce it to which one is silkier on the ball then yes that is ignoring football. If the eye test is enough, why is garrincha not seen of as better than pele? Why is he not listed among the five kings?

 

[M_R_J_85]

Saying Ronaldo isn't better than Messi off the ball is the same as saying Messi isn't a better passer than Ronaldo.

No it isn't. false equivalence

 

[Zehner]

Saying Ronaldo isn't better than Messi off the ball is the same as saying Messi isn't a better passer than Ronaldo. It's such a wrong and biased statement there's nothing I can argue against it other than calling it stupid. You're talking about the best off the ball player in the history of the sport and comparing it to someone who's one of the most static players in the world...

He is better at pressing, he is a better crosser of the ball and has been one of the best crossers in football for 15 years.
It's so pointless to argue against someone who doesn't even remotely care about the truth. If someone came here and argued Ronaldo was a better player because he was a better dribbler and a better passer... there's nothing you can argue back rather than laugh at it.



Messi needs the ball to affect the game in those instances while Ronaldo doesn't which leads to the team funneling their game through him and becoming one-dimensional more often than not against teams of a similar level. They don't put 3 or 4 players on him, they put one and vary depending on where he is usually... so no, the benefits to the team aren't in any way comparable.



That's just not even close to being true, any of it.

That's because you've got a very narrow understanding of off the ball movement. If you'd really had put in the effort to analyze Messi's movement you wouldn't say such things. Between the lines he moves as well as Cristiano in the final third and his timing when entering the box is also incredible.

How he's supposed to be a better crosser when Messi is simply better and more precise in how he curls the ball I don't understand. Just because Barca doesn't play with crosses doesn't mean he can't do it. It's like saying Ronaldo can't shoot from great distance since he rarely does it in recent times.

I also don't get how being a threat in the box should have a comparable tactical impact to being a threat in every area on the pitch. The fact that opposition teams have to pay so much attention to Messi leaves room for his team mates and makes retaining possession much easier. When Messi is being rested and then subbed on it usually and very visually changes the game completelysince it means the opponent has to defend completely differently.

So no, Messi doesn't need the ball to affect the game.

 

[BurtSpangle]

Off the ball movement (which is the main cause for 90% of goals and chances), athleticism, hold up play, twofootedness, heading, crossing, long range threat, impact on defensive and offensive set pieces, wing play, counterattacking, pressing (even if he’s not great at it), adaptability, verticality, physical presence, speed over large distances, playing with his back to goal, etc..

Disagree with the bolded, and while you make some good points on some things, your arguments are incredibly biased. So while you might say Ronaldo is quicker over large distances, Messi is quicker over short distances. Which one is more important? Ronaldo is better from 30+ yards, Messi is better in the 1-30 yards range. Which is more important?

Hold up play - Messi is much better at hold up play because technically he's so much better, he protects the ball much better than Ronaldo imo.

Twofootedness - Just because Messi probably does not have the capability to thunder a shot in with his weaker foot, he is still at a very high technical level with both feet, arguably moreso than Ronaldo. I don't think Ronaldo could score the goal that Messi scored against Bayern by dinking it over Neuer with his left.

Counter attacking - Messi's superior decision making makes him clearly better at counter attacks imo. Ronaldo might be there to finish off a counter attack because he's quicker over large distances, but Messi starts counter attacks quite often and normally finds a killer ball.

Pressing - Just because Messi doesn't press as often anymore, does not make Ronaldo better at it. When you have played in arguably the best team ever under a coach who is obsessed with winning the ball back quickly, you must be pretty good at it. Just because Ronaldo waves his arms around when his teammates aren't pressing with him, doesn't make him a good defender from the front.

 

[Zehner]

I mean if you basically want to discount winning, tactics, etc from football and reduce it to which one is silkier on the ball then yes that is ignoring football. If the eye test is enough, why is garrincha not seen of as better than pele? Why is he not listed among the five kings?

Ehm no, we don't discount tactics, just team trophies, mentality and all that stuff.

 

[Zehner]

@Zehner I see you have dropped this argument, so in which four years were the trio the best midfield in the world?

Come on, I answered this already. It's the second time you simply didn't read.

 

[MJJ]

Ehm no, we don't discount tactics, just team trophies, mentality and all that stuff.

Ah okay is that how bad messi failing has become? That we have to discount winning which is the main objective of the game? Also, you are doing a great disservice to messi if you are discounting his mentality as its better than 99% of the players but as a Neverkusen fan it makes sense why you don't value those two things.

Come on, I answered this already. It's the second time you simply didn't read.

Please quote your reply.

 

[Ishdalar]

Off the ball movement (which is the main cause for 90% of goals and chances), athleticism, hold up play, twofootedness, heading, crossing, long range threat, impact on defensive and offensive set pieces, wing play, counterattacking, pressing (even if he’s not great at it), adaptability, verticality, physical presence, speed over large distances, playing with his back to goal, etc..

And before you say it because it’s always your go-to reply.... no, the fact I consider Ronaldo better than Messi does not mean I rate heading ability over dribbling for example, it doesn’t mean I rate crossing over passing or that I rate physicality over technique on the ball. I just think there’s a much smaller gap between them technically than there is in the mental and physical part of the game.

Even in games like FIFA or FM they divide a player’s attributes in technical attributes, physical attributes and mental attributes yet you want football to be all about the technical ones because you’ve created this world for yourself where football is a different sport.

You can’t use stats to measure these things, stats measure 10% of a player’s impact on the game. The rest are intangibles and it’s why winning trophies is not irrelevant when talking about a player’s quality as long as you take into consideration the circumstances around them.

Talking about intangibles when you can't even get tangibles right.

Off the ball movement is important, but when we talk about how Messi creates gaps all over the field with his pressence we're the ones being fanboys.

Verticality, Physical presence, speed... are all part of athleticism, so the last one was redundant. Also physical presence depends of the spot you play, Ronaldo has a better physical presence against tall, strong CB's, Messi has a better one against players like Kante or Casemiro, their centre of gravity changes what they need to overpower different kind of players.

Hold up play and playing with his back against the goal are the same, unless you talk about hold up play 40 meters away from the enemy goal, there, Messi is at least equal to Ronaldo,. Leo is probably the hardest player in the world to pry the ball away when he gives you his back.

Long range threat... a joke, I posted here months ago that Messi had more goals from outside the area than Ronaldo, he shoots more from distance now than Ronaldo, and passing is a part of long distant threat, the picture with the stat you laughed at yesterday.

Offensive set pieces, is the player that puts a cross like a glove doing less than the one that heads it?. Then I know why you don't give Kroos any credit.

Wing play... maybe 10 years ago

Spoiler

Counterattacking, because it's harder running at the space than pinpointing a 40 meter pass to that space, he doesn't even need to run in counters to score two in a row, maybe because when he walks on a counter even up to 4 players close up on him leaving open 2 players.

What you fail to understand about football is that, for example, Ronaldo’s ability to score from crosses which he’s probably the best player ever at it, isn’t something that impacts the game via goals only. It gets the best out of the wide players, it forces the defense to defend the full width of the pitch, it opens up the middle and gives more space to every other player, it makes it a lot easier to get to goalscoring areas, it opens up space for others inside the box, etc.. the main impact he’ll have isn’t the goals, it’s on the game itself and the way the teams are set up.

Finally, proper football talk, you're right in everything, now take that argument and use it with Messi.

His ability to link up, dribble, shoot from outside the area and retain possession forces midfielders and defenders to narrow the pitch, that gives space to players like Alba or Alves to do things they wouldn't dream to achieve on their own. It makes the defenders face less chances against because the ball is in our possession more time, but you've diminished this arguments when presented to you, the same way you're criticizing now.

And then comes the team factor in the last era

Ronaldo brings all of that to his team, and he has Marcelo (the best dribbler LB ever, and top 5 crosser at that too), Carvajal (has a great cross in him), Bale (another fantastic crosser) and Lucas (who can only play with the space Ronaldo creates for him). Even Modric and Kroos are two of the best midfielders at crossing on the odd chance they have the option, without crosses they can just bomb you from outside the area with Ronaldo, Kroos, Modric, Bale and even Marcelo, with all those ingredients the whole squad is fitted perfectly to his style.

Messi brings what I've said. He has Alba (great at the space, bad crosser as he can only ground cross most of the time), Roberto (good crosser, not that good at the space due to his defensive duties), Alves (good crosser) Neymar (inverted winger, needs to return to cross, great link-up player), Coutinho (inverted winger) Rakitic (good at retaining the ball), Iniesta (good at retaining the ball and link up), Arthur (great at retaining and link up) and Suarez (poacher and workhorse, but not an aerial threat).

Real Madrid's star had 3 of the best crossers around to exploit his aerial prowess, pacey players to make the pitch wide, and 3 players (MC's and the 9) to create superiority in midfield with that space-

Barcelona's star can dominate a midfield on his own, yet he plays with 4 other players that flood his area, of which only two (Neymar and Iniesta/Arthur) can keep up at the speed he links up, the way he creates space at the wings is similar at how Ronaldo stretches everything, but his FB's are worse at crossing, he won't get any advantage of most crosses, no one is good at headers and that makes all the crosses predictable.

Ronaldo has scored 89 headers in his career, a fair header like Cavani 45, Benzema, who looks like a doodle of a header when compared to Ronaldo at his side, 36 and Suarez has scored... 34.


Can you understand now the argument I present (and I'm sure other people do to) about how Ronaldo is benefitting from a better team? Real and now Juve do a better job of milking Ronaldo's skillset than we do, if we got Marcelo and Kimmich as our FB's, Dembele on the left, Dzeko as the 9 and Thiago instead of Rakitic we'd be way less predictible in UCL legs, which is were we suffer. That way, maybe Juve or Atleti for example would had it harder than just close up on Messi and leave the wings exposed with 0 danger for them.

Expecting Leo to win those games alone would be the same as expecting Ronaldo to score 2 headers every game leading Portugal to a WC final.

 

[Peyroteo]

That's because you've got a very narrow understanding of off the ball movement. If you'd really had put in the effort to analyze Messi's movement you wouldn't say such things. Between the lines he moves as well as Cristiano in the final third and his timing when entering the box is also incredible.

Entering the box, yes. Between the lines there's nothing special, outside of Barcelona he has to come deep to touch it.

Comparing Messi off the ball to Ronaldo off the ball is absolutely ridiculous. It's a Fiat 500 to a Ferrari. It's insane the level of delusion you people can get to.

We need people to start coming in here saying Ronaldo is twice the dribbler Messi is to balance this out.

 

[Zehner]

Ah okay is that how bad messi failing has become? That we have to discount winning which is the main objective of the game? Also, you are doing a great disservice to messi if you are discounting his mentality as its better than 99% of the players but as a Neverkusen fan it makes sense why you don't value those two things.



Please quote your reply.

You talk so much about winning that you sound like Charlie Sheen.

Why trophies are a bad metric to measure a player's quality has been explained countless times. Not that it needed explanation in the first place because actually every sentient being on this earth should understand why but still it's been discussed more than enough. I won't repeat it again for you, nor will I look up my reply because you are too lazy. Nor am I willing to again talk about boring and irrelevant stuff because you lot want to again drag the discussion away from actual football since you know too well that you've got no arguments when we discuss the pure footballing ability. If you lot can't talk about collective success, supposed mentality and all that other stuff you simply run out of arguments. Suspicious.

Is that Neverkusen stuff supposed to be provocative, by the way?

 

[Fridge chutney]

Messi gets carried by Xavi, Iniesta, Rakitic, etc. and is mentally weak.

Ronaldo is a tap-in merchant and penalty specialist.

Let's all agree that they're both equally overrated.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Messi gets carried by Xavi, Iniesta, Rakitic, etc. and is mentally weak.

Ronaldo is a tap-in merchant and penalty specialist.

Let's all agree that they're both equally overrated.

0 World Cup Knockout Goals between the two of them

 

[Zehner]

Entering the box, yes. Between the lines there's nothing special, outside of Barcelona he has to come deep to touch it.

Comparing Messi off the ball to Ronaldo off the ball is absolutely ridiculous. It's a Fiat 500 to a Ferrari. It's insane the level of delusion you people can get to.

We need people to start coming in here saying Ronaldo is twice the dribbler Messi is to balance this out.

'Nothing special' - so you are in slight disaccordance with the likes of Guardiola, Xavi, Valverde and countless other professionals who articulated how well Messi moves between the lines.

You always accuse me of dismissing every other playstyle yet you have obviously no clue how possession based football is played and don't honorate how hard it is to to find space between the lines when opponent teams are parking the bus.

 

[Peyroteo]

Talking about intangibles when you can't even get tangibles right.

Off the ball movement is important, but when we talk about how Messi creates gaps all over the field with his pressence we're the ones being fanboys.

Verticality, Physical presence, speed... are all part of athleticism, so the last one was redundant. Also physical presence depends of the spot you play, Ronaldo has a better physical presence against tall, strong CB's, Messi has a better one against players like Kante or Casemiro, their centre of gravity changes what they need to overpower different kind of players.

Hold up play and playing with his back against the goal are the same, unless you talk about hold up play 40 meters away from the enemy goal, there, Messi is at least equal to Ronaldo,. Leo is probably the hardest player in the world to pry the ball away when he gives you his back.

Long range threat... a joke, I posted here months ago that Messi had more goals from outside the area than Ronaldo, he shoots more from distance now than Ronaldo, and passing is a part of long distant threat, the picture with the stat you laughed at yesterday.

Offensive set pieces, is the player that puts a cross like a glove doing less than the one that heads it?. Then I know why you don't give Kroos any credit.

Wing play... maybe 10 years ago

Spoiler

Counterattacking, because it's harder running at the space than pinpointing a 40 meter pass to that space, he doesn't even need to run in counters to score two in a row, maybe because when he walks on a counter even up to 4 players close up on him leaving open 2 players.



Finally, proper football talk, you're right in everything, now take that argument and use it with Messi.

His ability to link up, dribble, shoot from outside the area and retain possession forces midfielders and defenders to narrow the pitch, that gives space to players like Alba or Alves to do things they wouldn't dream to achieve on their own. It makes the defenders face less chances against because the ball is in our possession more time, but you've diminished this arguments when presented to you, the same way you're criticizing now.

And then comes the team factor in the last era

Ronaldo brings all of that to his team, and he has Marcelo (the best dribbler LB ever, and top 5 crosser at that too), Carvajal (has a great cross in him), Bale (another fantastic crosser) and Lucas (who can only play with the space Ronaldo creates for him). Even Modric and Kroos are two of the best midfielders at crossing on the odd chance they have the option, without crosses they can just bomb you from outside the area with Ronaldo, Kroos, Modric, Bale and even Marcelo, with all those ingredients the whole squad is fitted perfectly to his style.

Messi brings what I've said. He has Alba (great at the space, bad crosser as he can only ground cross most of the time), Roberto (good crosser, not that good at the space due to his defensive duties), Alves (good crosser) Neymar (inverted winger, needs to return to cross, great link-up player), Coutinho (inverted winger) Rakitic (good at retaining the ball), Iniesta (good at retaining the ball and link up), Arthur (great at retaining and link up) and Suarez (poacher and workhorse, but not an aerial threat).

Real Madrid's star had 3 of the best crossers around to exploit his aerial prowess, pacey players to make the pitch wide, and 3 players (MC's and the 9) to create superiority in midfield with that space-

Barcelona's star can dominate a midfield on his own, yet he plays with 4 other players that flood his area, of which only two (Neymar and Iniesta/Arthur) can keep up at the speed he links up, the way he creates space at the wings is similar at how Ronaldo stretches everything, but his FB's are worse at crossing, he won't get any advantage of most crosses, no one is good at headers and that makes all the crosses predictable.

Ronaldo has scored 89 headers in his career, a fair header like Cavani 45, Benzema, who looks like a doodle of a header when compared to Ronaldo at his side, 36 and Suarez has scored... 34.


Can you understand now the argument I present (and I'm sure other people do to) about how Ronaldo is benefitting from a better team? Real and now Juve do a better job of milking Ronaldo's skillset than we do, if we got Marcelo and Kimmich as our FB's, Dembele on the left, Dzeko as the 9 and Thiago instead of Rakitic we'd be way less predictible in UCL legs, which is were we suffer. That way, maybe Juve or Atleti for example would had it harder than just close up on Messi and leave the wings exposed with 0 danger for them.

Expecting Leo to win those games alone would be the same as expecting Ronaldo to score 2 headers every game leading Portugal to a WC final.

Ronaldo has scored well over 100 headers in his career...

The idea that Messi can control a midfield by himself is so stupid it's hilarious.

You reduce 100 different atributes to 'athleticism' because then that's just 1 thing Ronaldo has over Messi rather than 100.

The idea that Barcelona players don't use crossing because they're poor at it rather than because they have no reference to cross to and it's not part of their style of play is nonsensical. If they had Ronaldo instead of Messi, you'd see Alba cross it high to him rather than low to Messi just as effectively. This year Madrid can't cross for shit either... was Ronaldo benefiting from Marcelo's crossing or was Marcelo benefiting from Ronaldo's ability to convert them?

Saying Ronaldo benefits from having a better team at Juventus or Madrid than Messi at Barcelona is not ridiculous, it's fecking insane.
They do a better job of milking Ronaldo's skillset bcause Ronaldo's skillset is easier to milk without becoming a one dimensional team, not because they have a team anywhere near as good.

 

[Prometheus]

Better on the ball therefore better? That argument contains a big obvious fallacious leap.

 

[MJJ]

You talk so much about winning that you sound like Charlie Sheen.

Why trophies are a bad metric to measure a player's quality has been explained countless times. Not that it needed explanation in the first place because actually every sentient being on this earth should understand why but still it's been discussed more than enough. I won't repeat it again for you, nor will I look up my reply because you are too lazy. Nor am I willing to again talk about boring and irrelevant stuff because you lot want to again drag the discussion away from actual football since you know too well that you've got no arguments when we discuss the pure footballing ability. If you lot can't talk about collective success, supposed mentality and all that other stuff you simply run out of arguments. Suspicious.

Is that Neverkusen stuff supposed to be provocative, by the way?

I see you ignored my request to post the four years quote. Thats what normally happens when you get called out on your bs.

No its just explains a lot about your views as for the rest it's such bull crap, no player in any sports has ever been declared the best without trophies.

 

[Peyroteo]

'Nothing special' - so you are in slight disaccordance with the likes of Guardiola, Xavi, Valverde and countless other professionals who articulated how well Messi moves between the lines.

Yes, I am. His ability to find space between the lines these past couple of years is basically him sitting between the lines and waiting for the midfield to find him. At Argentina the midfield is nowhere near as good and he can't get the ball anywhere near as often which is why he has to come so deep to even touch it.

Any team that allows Messi to consistently get the ball between the lines throughout a game has lost the game before it's even started, what's special about him is what he does after he gets the ball there. Not before the ball gets there.

You always accuse me of dismissing every other playstyle yet you have obviously no clue how possession based football is played and don't honorate how hard it is to to find space between the lines when opponent teams are parking the bus.

I know how difficult it is to play possession football as a team, as an individual like Messi I know how much easier it is for him to play in those circumstances though.

When the opponent is parking the bus, it's impossible to find space between the lines. That's the whole point of it.

The fact Barcelona have been knocked out of the Champions League by several buses isn't a coincidence.

 

[shamans]

Except Messi is younger and has won more trophies. “Football is about winning”, Messi has won more ergo Messi is better.

Yes. That's a good argument and I am willing to accept. But dont tell me he is greater because he can dribble better.

Whether you think its messi or Ronaldo fine but Messi is great because of his winnings and trophies.

 

[shamans]

Nice dodge. How can talking about what footballing abilities someone has be ignoring football? I mean Ronaldo fans were making these arguments previously e.g. he's better at heading, shooting, goal scoring instinct and replaced all this with fantasy heroic mentality stuff. The eye test is enough.



I've seen this type of response on this thread twice now. How is comparing a freestyler to Messi an honest response? Remember that time he did a handstand and passed it to Rakitic? ridiculous!

Messi has won more. Even recently with Ronaldos success in the champions league, you can't ignore how badly he's done in the league, which means he's worse than Messi most of the time.

It's in response to the stupid elitist claims that Messi is better because just look at it.

Like I said, Messis claim to greatness is the fact that hes won crap while doing what he does.

 

[Peyroteo]

You talk so much about winning that you sound like Charlie Sheen.

Why trophies are a bad metric to measure a player's quality has been explained countless times. Not that it needed explanation in the first place because actually every sentient being on this earth should understand why but still it's been discussed more than enough. I won't repeat it again for you, nor will I look up my reply because you are too lazy. Nor am I willing to again talk about boring and irrelevant stuff because you lot want to again drag the discussion away from actual football since you know too well that you've got no arguments when we discuss the pure footballing ability. If you lot can't talk about collective success, supposed mentality and all that other stuff you simply run out of arguments. Suspicious.

Is that Neverkusen stuff supposed to be provocative, by the way?

Why is trophies while taking into account the team around them and their importance to the team a bad metric to judge a player's quality?

I understand why trophies is a bad metric if you make a direct comparison. Gerrard was Liverpool's star and his teammates weren't the best. Obviously I'm not going to rate Sergi Roberto higher for winning more as a squad player in an incredible Barcelona team. No shit.

But two players, both the stars of their teams, one with better support than the other throughout his career and the one in a worse team won more than the one in a better team? Then that's a very different story wouldn't you agree?

So for the 10th time... as long as you take the circumstances into account, why is winning not a good metric?

Every single sport uses it in these arguments, why should football be any different?

 

[Prometheus]

I see you ignored my request to post the four years quote. Thats what normally happens when you get called out on your bs.

No its just explains a lot about your views as for the rest it's such bull crap, no player in any sports has ever been declared the best without trophies.

I see people constantly making up stuff in this thread. But personally I don't feel comfortable about cornering them even if it's really badly constructed falsehoods.

 

[MJJ]

I see people constantly making up stuff in this thread. But personally I don't feel comfortable about cornering them even if it's really badly constructed falsehoods.

I normally let it slide but after you make an arrogant claim for pages on end which require somebody to go and do some work to pull up their appearances atleast have the decency to acknowledge it rather than drop it completely and move on to "footballing reasons".

 

[kouroux]

@Peyrote You're up for the biggest Ronaldo defender on the Internet award of 2019

 

[Zehner]

I see you ignored my request to post the four years quote. Thats what normally happens when you get called out on your bs.

No its just explains a lot about your views as for the rest it's such bull crap, no player in any sports has ever been declared the best without trophies.

Whatever, I spend more than enough time in this thread, I won't invest even more because you are too lazy to click through the pages yourself. Why should I do that for you? What kind of request is this?

Yes, I am. His ability to find space between the lines these past couple of years is basically him sitting between the lines and waiting for the midfield to find him. At Argentina the midfield is nowhere near as good and he can't get the ball anywhere near as often which is why he has to come so deep to even touch it.

Any team that allows Messi to consistently get the ball between the lines throughout a game has lost the game before it's even started, what's special about him is what he does after he gets the ball there. Not before the ball gets there.



I know how difficult it is to play possession football as a team, as an individual like Messi I know how much easier it is for him to play in those circumstances though.

When the opponent is parking the bus, it's impossible to find space between the lines. That's the whole point of it.

The fact Barcelona have been knocked out of the Champions League by several buses isn't a coincidence.

Then it should impress you even more that he finds this space.

Valverde himself said that Messi reads games better than he does. That he reserves the first 5-10 minutes to observe, spot patterns and then attacks the small spaces he makes out in the opposition's defence. Saying that he just waits for the midfield to find him is like saying Cristiano only waits in the box to wait for good crosses. There's much more to it. Guardiola and Xavi have explained how Messi almost magically anticipates situations, is ahead of anyone else in his head, just knows where the ball will end up and positions himself accordingly.

Off the ball movement by the way also includes his runs when he plays one twos or combination plays with his team mates. You know, the occasions when he finds a deep team mate with a vertical pass and then makes a run to receive the back pass right in front of the box. You can't play the tiki taka he plays without great off the ball movement. Just look at his link ups with Iniesta, Alves, Xavi, Neymar, Suarez and Alba. This is not just standing still and passing but also incredible movement with quick accelerations at the right although there isn't much space.

He's much better at this aspect of off the ball movement than Cristiano. The only areas in which Ronaldo is better are vertical runs behind the lines (quite clearly so) and his movement in the box. And even the latter is debatable since Messi is just as dangerous when he enters the box due to his perfectly timed runs.

 

[Ishdalar]

Ronaldo has scored well over 100 headers in his career...

Well, was only looking at club goals

The idea that Messi can control a midfield by himself is so stupid it's hilarious.

Look at the 2014 WC, between Mascherano passing the ball to Messi or the CB's and the opposition's goal there was only one player making things happen, but, he didn't score, so bad WC

You reduce 100 different atributes to 'athleticism' because then that's just 1 thing Ronaldo has over Messi rather than 100.

I didn't do that, I reduced your 100 attributes to 99. I said only the last one (Athleticism) was redundant if you name them all, something similar happened with hold up play and back against goal play.

The idea that Barcelona players don't use crossing because they're poor at it rather than because they have no reference to cross to and it's not part of their style of play is nonsensical. If they had Ronaldo instead of Messi, you'd see Alba cross it high to him rather than low to Messi just as effectively. This year Madrid can't cross for shit either... was Ronaldo benefiting from Marcelo's crossing or was Marcelo benefiting from Ronaldo's ability to convert them?.

It's not A or B, it's a mix of both.

Alba has played with Morata, Aduriz Diego Costa, Alcacer and Rodrigo for the last 5 years, 2 of them excel at heading and the other 2 are good at it.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2644421
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2842729
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2644418
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2645652
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2429548
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2429350
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2429331

1 assist to Deulo
3 to Silva
1 to Morata
2 to Alcacer

None of his assists where headers. Crossing is simple, you need 3 things, accuracy, power and curve, Alba has decent accuracy, poor power and a non-existant curve. You're insulting me when you say Alba could put aerial crosses to Ronaldo as effectively as Marcelo. Marcelo has a 34% career accuracy on crosses, Alba has a 19%.

Even Azpilicueta is a better crosser.

Saying Ronaldo benefits from having a better team at Juventus or Madrid than Messi at Barcelona is not ridiculous, it's fecking insane.
They do a better job of milking Ronaldo's skillset bcause Ronaldo's skillset is easier to milk without becoming a one dimensional team, not because they have a team anywhere near as good.

Crossing can't make a team one dimensional? Who are you, David Moyes?. It's effective when you have world class crossers feeding the best header ever, same way linking up was effective when we had world class passers feeding the best link up player and dribbler ever.

Beyond that, any style can be one dimensional, we won a treble with a style that wasn't Barcelona or Leo's go-to, and he was our best player anyway.

 

[MJJ]

Whatever, I spend more than enough time in this thread, I won't invest even more because you are too lazy to click through the pages yourself. Why should I do that for you? What kind of request is this?



Then it should impress you even more that he finds this space.

Valverde himself said that Messi reads games better than he does. That he reserves the first 5-10 minutes to observe, spot patterns and then attacks the small spaces he makes out in the opposition's defence. Saying that he just waits for the midfield to find him is like saying Cristiano only waits in the box to wait for good crosses. There's much more to it. Guardiola and Xavi have explained how Messi almost magically anticipates situations, is ahead of anyone else in his head, just knows where the ball will end up and positions himself accordingly.

Off the ball movement by the way also includes his runs when he plays one twos or combination plays with his team mates. You know, the occasions when he finds a deep team mate with a vertical pass and then makes a run to receive the back pass right in front of the box. You can't play the tiki taka he plays without great off the ball movement. Just look at his link ups with Iniesta, Alves, Xavi, Neymar, Suarez and Alba. This is not just standing still and passing but also incredible movement with quick accelerations at the right although there isn't much space.

He's much better at this aspect of off the ball movement than Cristiano. The only areas in which Ronaldo is better are vertical runs behind the lines (quite clearly so) and his movement in the box. And even the latter is debatable since Messi is just as dangerous when he enters the box due to his perfectly timed runs.

Sure mate.

 

[Peyroteo]

Then it should impress you even more that he finds this space.

He doesn't though. He regularly fails to get that space once the midfield isn't dominating. He rarely ever does it for Argentina and he's forced to drop deep to be on the ball, at Barcelona against parked buses obviously he can't get the ball between the lines, no player can.

His problem right now isn't poor mentality or choking like some claim, it's that in certain games teams are much better at closing that spaces. Games are a lot more difficult for him when teams are good at closing the spaces between the lines. He doesn't make vertical runs or fall in the wings often enough to counter it.

Valverde himself said that Messi reads games better than he does. That he reserves the first 5-10 minutes to observe, spot patterns and then attacks the small spaces he makes out in the opposition's defence. Saying that he just waits for the midfield to find him is like saying Cristiano only waits in the box to wait for good crosses. There's much more to it. Guardiola and Xavi have explained how Messi almost magically anticipates situations, is ahead of anyone else in his head, just knows where the ball will end up and positions himself accordingly.

That's a load of crap though. Giving me Valverde, Guardiola and Xavi exaggerations about Messi is funny, who are you going to quote next? His mum?

He obviously does well to find spaces between the lines, it's not a difficult skill in the slightest when they have space though. It's what he does after he gets the ball there that's special. Getting space there is simple if the opposition allows it and impossible for anyone if the opposition doesn't allow it.

Off the ball movement by the way also includes his runs when he plays one twos or combination plays with his team mates. You know, the occasions when he finds a deep team mate with a vertical pass and then makes a run to receive the back pass right in front of the box. You can't play the tiki taka he plays without great off the ball movement. Just look at his link ups with Iniesta, Alves, Xavi, Neymar, Suarez and Alba. This is not just standing still and passing but also incredible movement with quick accelerations at the right although there isn't much space.

He's much better at this aspect of off the ball movement than Cristiano. The only areas in which Ronaldo is better are vertical runs behind the lines (quite clearly so) and his movement in the box. And even the latter is debatable since Messi is just as dangerous when he enters the box due to his perfectly timed runs.

He's not better in that aspect of off the ball movement ffs, Ronaldo gets the balls in those spaces often too. He's just nowhere near as dangerous as Messi when the ball gets there.

Comparing Ronaldo and Messi off the ball is more ridiculous than comparing their dribbling.

 

[Peyroteo]

Well, was only looking at club goals



Look at the 2014 WC, between Mascherano passing the ball to Messi or the CB's and the opposition's goal there was only one player making things happen, but, he didn't score, so bad WC



I didn't do that, I reduced your 100 attributes to 99. I said only the last one (Athleticism) was redundant if you name them all, something similar happened with hold up play and back against goal play.



It's not A or B, it's a mix of both.

Alba has played with Morata, Aduriz Diego Costa, Alcacer and Rodrigo for the last 5 years, 2 of them excel at heading and the other 2 are good at it.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2644421
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2842729
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2644418
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2645652
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2429548
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2429350
https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2429331

1 assist to Deulo
3 to Silva
1 to Morata
2 to Alcacer

None of his assists where headers. Crossing is simple, you need 3 things, accuracy, power and curve, Alba has decent accuracy, poor power and a non-existant curve. You're insulting me when you say Alba could put aerial crosses to Ronaldo as effectively as Marcelo. Marcelo has a 34% career accuracy on crosses, Alba has a 19%.

Even Azpilicueta is a better crosser.



Crossing can't make a team one dimensional? Who are you, David Moyes?. It's effective when you have world class crossers feeding the best header ever, same way linking up was effective when we had world class passers feeding the best link up player and dribbler ever.

Beyond that, any style can be one dimensional, we won a treble with a style that wasn't Barcelona or Leo's go-to, and he was our best player anyway.

Spain and Barcelona rarely cross the ball. Alba would love to have the option to cross high balls to Ronaldo... saying he wouldn't be able to is ridiculous.

If Marcelo played with Messi and Alba with Ronaldo, Alba would have more assist from high crosses and Marcelo would have more assists from low cutbacks. It has nothing to do with their skillset.

 

[Peyroteo]

@Peyrote You're up for the biggest Ronaldo defender on the Internet award of 2019

How many times are you going to make this exact same post?

Yeah. I'd understand it if most of them are paid like @Peyroteo but not everyone is a pro

Ronaldo fanbois don't half arse it with their worshipping do they ?

At least join in the fun for once rather than coming in, throwing a jab and going away

 

[Zehner]

'Just standing still and waiting for the midfield to find him'

You simply have no clue how all that works. Getting yourself available for passes in those areas is extremely difficult and it is what made players like Xavi and Iniesta as good as they were. And Messi has the same sense for midfield movement plus perfectly timed runs in behind or into the box. He's simply extremely good at punishing you as soon as he spots a hole in the opponent's formation.

He's just nowhere near as dangerous as Messi when the ball gets there.

Finally something we agree on.

 

[Zehner]

Sure mate.

Too complicated? I know it's easier to talk about trophies. Doesn't require as much observing and thinking.

 

[MJJ]

Too complicated? I know it's easier to talk about trophies. Doesn't require as much observing and thinking.

Nope, I just understand its easier to change the topic then admit you were chatting shit. Its okay, four years the best midfield two of which they didn't even play together and one of which casemiro was out on loan.

 

[Peyroteo]

'Just standing still and waiting for the midfield to find him'

You simply have no clue how all that works. Getting yourself available for passes in those areas is extremely difficult and it is what made players like Xavi and Iniesta as good as they were. And Messi has the same sense for midfield movement plus perfectly timed runs in behind. He's simply extremely good at punishing you as soon as he spots a hole in the opponent's formation.

You can make a 30 minute compilation of Ronaldo dribbling and making players look stupid. He's not a better dribbler than Messi though is he? That compilation doesn't even show him moving before the ball gets to him for most of those plays when he gets the ball between the lines.

Xavi and Iniesta weren't as good as they were because of finding pockets of space in mdifield ffs. It's what they did with the ball that set them apart from the rest, there was nothing impressive about their work off the ball offensively.

What's special about Messi is what he does AFTER he gets the ball between the lines, what he does before is nothing special at all. Suarez is a lot more impressive in that regard in the same setup, he just ends up fecking it up a lot more often when the ball gets to him.

 

[Zehner]

You can make a 30 minute compilation of Ronaldo dribbling and making players look stupid. He's not a better dribbler than Messi though is he? That compilation doesn't even show him moving before the ball gets to him for most of those plays when he gets the ball between the lines.

Xavi and Iniesta weren't as good as they were because of finding pockets of space in mdifield ffs. It's what they did with the ball that set them apart from the rest, there was nothing impressive about their work off the ball offensively.

What's special about Messi is what he does AFTER he gets the ball between the lines, what he does before is nothing special at all. Suarez is a lot more impressive in that regard in the same setup, he just ends up fecking it up a lot more often when the ball gets to him.

See, and that's why I say you don't understand the details of Barca's style. What you say about Xavi and Iniesta contradicts how Xavi described and prioritized his game himself. And it is also in disaccordance to Cruyff's and Guardiola's descriptions. It isn't just about fielding the right players, it is about positional game, how you provide passing options by anticipating where the ball will end up, when a team mate will get pressure and where you need to move in order to be available for a pass. You really think I take your opinion over that of those coaches who invented/redesigned this style and the players who filled it with life? Come on. No wonder you don't rate Kroos, you simply don't know what to look at.

That compilation is of a single season by the way. Show me a 30 minute compilation of Ronaldo dribbling in just one season. There are also many more analyses of Messi's movement, you're free to watch them.

 

[Zehner]

Nope, I just understand its easier to change the topic then admit you were chatting shit. Its okay, four years the best midfield two of which they didn't even play together and one of which casemiro was out on loan.

See, you can cite the post I already told you exists and then we can discuss that further. Would've taken less time than posting your painfully wannabe provocative one liners. There's even a search function. But I simply won't do it for you.

 

[Peyroteo]

See, and that's why I say you don't understand the details of Barca's style. What you say about Xavi and Iniesta contradicts how Xavi described and prioritized his game himself. And it is also in disaccordance to Cruyff's and Guardiola's descriptions. It isn't just about fielding the right players, it is about positional game, how you provide passing options by anticipating where the ball will end up, when a team mate will get pressure and where you need to move in order to be available for a pass. You really think I take your opinion over that of those coaches who invented/redesigned this style and the players who filled it with life? Come on.

That compilation is of a single season by the way. There are many more analyses of Messi's movement, you're free to watch them.

I watch the games, don't need to watch youtube compilations. I'm going to start arguing Ronaldo is a better dribbler than Messi and showing you YouTube videos as proof, that will be fun.

Positional play isn't the same as off the ball movement to get the ball between the lines. It has nothing to do with Cruyff or Guardiola or their ideas of the sport, Barcelona don't even play like that these days. Messi plays with complete freedom, not with a set role in their build up.

Pretty much any player can follow the positional patterns Cruyff and Guardiola implemented, what they can't replace is the quality on the ball of Xavi and Iniesta. That set them apart, not their magical positioning and movement than noone can replace. You're the type of guy to rate Tuchel and Sarri above Ancelotti and Sir Alex Ferguson as managers.