Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[BaseFishing]

The soldier who won more wars with less and worse men on his side should get more recognition that the soldier who wasn't able to do it as often with more and better soldiers on his side...

Actual effectiveness in winning the war should be more important than a completely subjective view of the characteristics that make the better soldier

Yeah, you're probably right. Like if there was a player who came around in 5 years' time and completely outperformed both Messi and Ronaldo in terms of goals, assists, trophies, everything, then you'd have to say they were the best ever.

And yet, if they didn't pass the eye test for me, I'm afraid I wouldn't say it.

Because here's the key part - you're 100% right, since war is about winning. But football is, to the contrary of what most people think, not primarily about winning. That's literally the most important thing, except for one other thing, which goes slightly above it. Entertainment.

 

[Peyroteo]

Scoring a bunch of tap ins and penalties isn't that great though. A lot of them goals were while his team was already up as well.

That's not even remotely close to being true. Just a complete outright lie. 5 penalties he's scored in the CL knockouts. 5. If anything it's completely the other way. Messi's scored more penalties than Ronaldo in the knockouts. More goals while they were in the lead of the tie too.



You can check the time of the goals and the result at the time too. Better to know what you're talking about than say something that's that wrong.

 

[Peyroteo]

Yeah, you're probably right. Like if there was a player who came around in 5 years' time and completely outperformed both Messi and Ronaldo in terms of goals, assists, trophies, everything, then you'd have to say they were the best ever.

And yet, if they didn't pass the eye test for me, I'm afraid I wouldn't say it.

Because here's the key part - you're 100% right, since war is about winning. But football is, to the contrary of what most people think, not primarily about winning. That's literally the most important thing, except for one other thing, which goes slightly above it. Entertainment.

I was just saying a counterpoint. I think a balance of the two points of view is what's ideal.

 

[Jagga7]

That's not even remotely close to being true. Just a complete outright lie.

Messi's scored more penalties than Ronaldo in the knockouts. More goals while they were in the lead of the tie too.

Pathetic

Both Ronaldo and Messi have impressive stats, but a closer look at them proves Messi make decisions better and, more importantly, brings greater value to his team. Using a framework that was originally developed for baseball, The Economist rated Messi and Ronaldo goals based on their context and importance. These stats, called Expected Points Added (EPA), rate goals by their added win probability. Meaning, a winning goal in the last minute of the game is rated higher than the fourth goal scored in a 4-0 win. Messi’s EPA stands at 59.5 while Ronaldo’s is 50.4.

I knew this before even both having to google it for evidence. Ronaldo is the ultimate stat padder.
Messi has far great influence on his teams.

 

[BaseFishing]

I was just saying a counterpoint. I think a balance of the two points of view is what's ideal.

Yeah, again you're probably right. I even think you can argue that winning is more important. Like I said, if someone came along who was outperforming Messi and Ronaldo completely in every way, then they'd probably have to be crowned the best ever. And yet, while it would make logical sense, emotionally I'm just too tied to being in awe of Messi's talent. And that's probably not a great argument, but it is how I feel. Hence, the only thing I can say is that Messi just entertains me more.

 

[Peyroteo]

Both Ronaldo and Messi have impressive stats, but a closer look at them proves Messi make decisions better and, more importantly, brings greater value to his team. Using a framework that was originally developed for baseball, The Economist rated Messi and Ronaldo goals based on their context and importance. These stats, called Expected Points Added (EPA), rate goals by their added win probability. Meaning, a winning goal in the last minute of the game is rated higher than the fourth goal scored in a 4-0 win. Messi’s EPA stands at 59.5 while Ronaldo’s is 50.4.

I knew this before even both having to google it for evidence. Ronaldo is the ultimate stat padder.
Messi has far great influence on his teams.

That's literally not what you're talking about... How pathetic can you get? You just said Ronaldo scored more in the knockouts because he had a load of tap ins and penalties with goals at unimportant times. At least stand by it rather than say an outright lie and then deflect it to something irrelevant when you get called out for it.

That study that's made to study the importance of goals rates Messi scoring the 1-0 over Atletico in the Copa del Rey more than they rate him scoring the 2-0 vs Manchester United in the final of the Champions League. Incredible study, really.

Any random statistic bollock goes now.

 

[Jagga7]

That's literally not what you're talking about... How pathetic can you get? You just said Ronaldo scored more in the knockouts because he had a load of tap ins and penalties with goals at unimportant times. At least stand by it rather than say an outright lie and then deflect it to some other irrelevant crap when you get called out for it.

That study that's made to study the importance of goals rates Messi scoring the 1-0 over Atletico in the Copa del Rey more than they rate him scoring the 2-0 vs Manchester United in the final of the Champions League. Incredible study, really.

Any random statistic bollock goes now.

. Don't get mad because you're wrong.

 

[breakout67]

What a joke. Any study that ranks a 1-0 goal in the copa del rey over a 2-0 goal in the CL final is not worth looking at. That's what happens when you try to apply baseball models to football. Some idiot that doesn't know a thing about football is applying the model. I prefer Messi over Ronaldo but feck me, relying on the economist for analysis is scraping the barrel.

 

[Peyroteo]

. Don't get mad because you're wrong.

Sorry, I won't call you out for it next time you state something completely incorrect as fact.

That study had the right idea, they just applied it terribly to the sport and didn't take everything into consideration. I'd love for someone to check all their goals and make some sort of data analysis of the result at the time they scored.

 

[SCP]

Ronaldo too, Messi is great, in fact I think he’s the 2nd greatest ever.

 

[Cal?]

Again, if we go back to the metaphor - what you're saying is that not every battle in the war is equal. Which I agree with of course. So you're saying if a soldier was important for winning a key battle that would have more weight in the debate, so the speak, than a soldier who helped to win a less significant battle.

That's all fine. But, again, for me personally (to bring it back to football), matches, trophies, all of that, comes secondary to just watching Messi and watching Ronaldo (for how many years now...) and seeing what I see. I see a great player, one of the best ever. And then I see a genius.

That’s all very well and I can accept people have different opinions on this.

I have said many times it’s the Messi fans who dismiss people who don’t agree with them that I have a problem with.

 

[sherrinford]

Throughout his career? Heading, two-footedness, crossing, off the ball movement, physical presence, wing play, hold up play, impact on offensive and defensive set pieces, leadership, mobility, adaptability, counterattacking, verticality, playing with his back to goal, long range threat, etc.

You can agree or disagree with any of those or their importance. The point is football isn't scoring, passing and dribbling. It's obviously a lot more complex than that. Saying Messi is better because he scores about the same and assists more is just ignorant.

I don’t think that’s what the poster was getting at - I think he was saying Messi is better because he scores about the same and is greater in his general play.

I think Messi was clearly better in both their formative years and in their respective primes, but as they’ve moved into the later stages of their careers I think Ronaldo has maintained a level closer to his best. Obviously they developed over time as well and are far different players now compared with when they started out in senior football.

 

[BaseFishing]

That’s all very well and I can accept people have different opinions on this.

I have said many times it’s the Messi fans who dismiss people who don’t agree with them that I have a problem with.

Yeah, I agree with you completely.

So what would you say to this - say in 5 years' time a player comes along who outperforms both Messi and Ronaldo in terms of everything. Goals, assists, trophies won, scoring or assisting at key moments in important games, all of that. But it just so happens that all of the goals and assists look completely uninspiring and they just never have the "get you off your seat" factor. Just an incredibly consistent and efficient player, but somehow nowhere near as entertaining.

Would you then concede this player being the best of all time (granted, again, that he's statistically in every aspect outperforming Messi and Ronaldo)? Or would you not?

Personally, something about that hypothetical rubs me the wrong way, and I would have to say, even though this player is amazing, I still feel like Messi is the goat. Would that be a stupid thing for me to say? I'm not entirely sure, just want to know your thoughts.

 

[Gehrman]

La liga trophies don't really seem to count for a lot in here even they Barca have competing against one of the best Madrid sides of all time and vice versa.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah, I agree with you completely.

So what would you say to this - say in 5 years' time a player comes along who outperforms both Messi and Ronaldo in terms of everything. Goals, assists, trophies won, scoring or assisting at key moments in important games, all of that. But it just so happens that all of the goals and assists look completely uninspiring and they just never have the "get you off your seat" factor. Just an incredibly consistent and efficient player, but somehow nowhere near as entertaining.

Would you then concede this player being the best of all time (granted, again, that he's statistically in every aspect outperforming Messi and Ronaldo)? Or would you not?

Personally, something about that hypothetical rubs me the wrong way, and I would have to say, even though this player is amazing, I still feel like Messi is the goat. Would that be a stupid thing for me to say? I'm not entirely sure, just want to know your thoughts.

I would, personally I’m more result oriented than valuing aesthetically pleasing play.

 

[Zehner]

Nothing. Playing in different formations, different systems, different philosophies, different teams with different strenghts and weaknesses obviously shows a versatility and ability to adapt that a player staying at one club for their whole career won't have as much chance to show.

Ronaldo will obviously be rated higher for leaving Madrid and proving he can perform at the same level at Juve too than he would have by staying in Madrid. Do you not think there's any merit to the way he handled the process of this year's change?

It is remarkable, yes, but it says nothing about his abilities as a footballer. Does it make me a better engineer if I've proven myself in different countries?

That is because, it is so rare, so rare that there's almost no identical level of success/acheivement among the best players in history, so it becomes irrelevant.

But regarding Messi vs Ronaldo, we have 5 Ballon D'or winner each in exact same era, stats are similar, no. of trophies similar, individual records similar, it never ever really happens before, so it becomes an interesting topic to explore.

There' one thing call comfort zone, and for most players they strive under one system but may find it hard in another. Moving away from one club to another, for most people, would take some time to adapt. Sometimes they adapt and doing well, sometimes they don't. For a player to adapt very quick and done so well everywhere, is very rare. It adds weight in discussion under some rare circumstances, although its irrelevant in most scenario as explained above.

See, I'm tired of discussing things that have nothing to do with football. Does the ball in Italy have a different shape or size? Are they playing on different grounds? With more players on the pitch?

No, it's the same sport. Playing in Italy doesn't influence his abilities. He won't be a better or worse shot taker, dribbler or whatever. So how about we start talking about things that actually have to do with football? I mean, why are you guys constantly dragging away from the sport?

This thread reads almost like some hollow motivational Instagram profile with all this talk about personality, attitude, mentality, success and what not.

 

[Peyroteo]

It is remarkable, yes, but it says nothing about his abilities as a footballer. Does it make me a better engineer if I've proven myself in different countries?



See, I'm tired of discussing things that have nothing to do with football. Does the ball in Italy have a different shape or size? Are they playing on different grounds? With more players on the pitch?

No, it's the same sport. Playing in Italy doesn't influence his abilities. He won't be a better or worse shot taker, dribbler or whatever. So how about we start talking about things that actually have to do with football? I mean, why are you guys constantly dragging away from the sport?

This thread reads almost like some hollow motivational Instagram profile with all this talk about personality, attitude, mentality, success and what not.

You might be the first person in history to actually believe those things have nothing to do with the sport, have you ever played football or talked to a professional footballer or manager? It's the Tuchel vs Zidane argument this.

Football isn't one player and a ball. The ball is the same, everything else isn't. Listen to any player or manager that's played in different leagues and they'll tell you how different it is.

It is a completely different thing to play next to Mandzukic or next to Benzema, to play under Allegri or Zidane, to play week in week out against possession oriented teams or compact teams. United was completely different to Madrid, Madrid was completely different to Juventus and Juventus was completely different to United. There is no way he'd have faced half the scenarios he faced had he stayed at United his whole career.

Playing in Italy doesn't influence his abilities. He won't be a better or worse shot taker, dribbler or whatever.

He won't be a better shot taker, dribbler or passer but we see how his actual abilities do in a different context. How could that ever be irrelevant when talking about how good a player is?

Rating a player based on a subjective view of the characteristics you believe to be important will never be enough. You'd rate Messi the same if he retired today or if he goes on to have 10/10 performances in every game for the next 3 Champions Leagues and wins them all. How does that make any sense?

 

[RedRonaldo]

Yeah, I agree with you completely.

So what would you say to this - say in 5 years' time a player comes along who outperforms both Messi and Ronaldo in terms of everything. Goals, assists, trophies won, scoring or assisting at key moments in important games, all of that. But it just so happens that all of the goals and assists look completely uninspiring and they just never have the "get you off your seat" factor. Just an incredibly consistent and efficient player, but somehow nowhere near as entertaining.

Would you then concede this player being the best of all time (granted, again, that he's statistically in every aspect outperforming Messi and Ronaldo)? Or would you not?

Personally, something about that hypothetical rubs me the wrong way, and I would have to say, even though this player is amazing, I still feel like Messi is the goat. Would that be a stupid thing for me to say? I'm not entirely sure, just want to know your thoughts.

Absolutely. Sure such player would be by far the best in history of football, if that happens.

Just imagine, some player win 8 or 10 Ballon D'or, score 60-80 goals every season for 10-15 years, winning CL over 7 or 8 times, winning the league over 10-12 times, breaking all records Ronaldo/Messi hold (total over 270 records) etc. No matter how uninspiring the style of football he plays, he has to be the greatest ever by a large margin.

 

[Zehner]

You might be the first person in history to actually believe those things have nothing to do with the sport, have you ever played football or talked to a professional footballer or manager? It's the Tuchel vs Zidane argument this.

Football isn't one player and a ball. The ball is the same, everything else isn't. Listen to any player or manager that's played in different leagues and they'll tell you how different it is.

It is a completely different thing to play next to Mandzukic or next to Benzema, to play under Allegri or Zidane, to play week in week out against possession oriented teams or compact teams. United was completely different to Madrid, Madrid was completely different to Juventus and Juventus was completely different to United. There is no way he'd have faced half the scenarios he faced had he stayed at United his whole career.



He won't be a better shot taker, dribbler or passer but we see how his actual abilities do in a different context. How could that ever be irrelevant when talking about how good a player is?

Yes, and if you go into that much detail no game is the same. Thing is, you again completely overestimate these things because they fancy Cristiano. You act as if footballers need years to adjust to each other when that's clearly not the case. He remained the same footballer with the same abilities and we haven't learned a new thing from this move to Juve except that he's got the openness to adapt - a character not a footballing trait. It's not like he displayed abilities we've not seen before or anything like that. That'll also be my last post to this topic because as I already said, it bores me to no end to talk about stuff that has nothing to do with the actual football players Cristiano and Messi.

 

[RedRonaldo]

See, I'm tired of discussing things that have nothing to do with football. Does the ball in Italy have a different shape or size? Are they playing on different grounds? With more players on the pitch?

No, it's the same sport. Playing in Italy doesn't influence his abilities. He won't be a better or worse shot taker, dribbler or whatever. So how about we start talking about things that actually have to do with football? I mean, why are you guys constantly dragging away from the sport?

This thread reads almost like some hollow motivational Instagram profile with all this talk about personality, attitude, mentality, success and what not.

It isn't, just that you dont see how hard it is to be successful in all types of settings and environment, doesn't mean its hollow and meaningless. For example, in tennis, when you win the grand slam (all types of court), your status rises higher too. It isn't something just invented today for sake of discussion, its been around in many sports. Personally I would't rate Ronaldo winning Serie A to be very significant in GOAT discussion, but if he wins the CL with Juventus, it will be part of his legacy people going to discuss for many years.

 

[Peyroteo]

Yes, and if you go into that much detail no game is the same. Thing is, you again completely overestimate these things because they fancy Cristiano. You act as if footballers need years to adjust to each other when that's clearly not the case. He remained the same footballer with the same abilities and we haven't learned a new thing from this move to Juve except that he's got the openness to adapt - a character not a footballing trait. It's not like he displayed abilities we've not seen before or anything like that. That'll also be my last post to this topic because as I already said, it bores me to no end to talk about stuff that has nothing to do with the actual football players Cristiano and Messi.

It does have to do with the footballers Cristiano and Messi, you just choose to pretend it doesn't because they don't fancy Messi.

we haven't learned a new thing from this move to Juve except that he's got the openness to adapt - a character not a footballing trait.

Bullshit. He's playing completely different than in Madrid, we learned he can play with a target man like Mandzukic and form a great partnership, we're seeing him more involved outside of the box than you've seen him in years, dribbling more than in years, we're seeing the direct movements from the long balls from Bonucci, Pjanic and Chiellini, we're seeing him play in the most conservative club team he's ever played in, we're seeing him defend and press more than he's ever had, we've seen him form great partnerships with the likes of Cancelo, Bernardeschi and Pjanic, we've seen him have to play with a non-attacking left back behind him, we've seen him coordinate his movements in the box with the ones from the midfielder who attack crosses (which never happened in Madrid) and plenty more. If that's not football then what the hell is?

Football isn't some general concept you can divide in passing/dribbling/shooting since that's the things you can do with a ball. Same way that football is not some general concept you can divide in left foot/right foot/heading since those are the parts of the body players use. It's a lot more complex, the circumstances matter and they change everything. If how a player adapts to those different circumstances is irrelevant then so is everything else.

 

[Beagle]

This poll would be heavily tipped towards Messi if Ronaldo hadn't played for United.

 

[altodevil]

This poll would be heavily tipped towards Messi if Ronaldo hadn't played for United.

The poll was artificially altered for a while anyway I think, before that Messi was leading 60/40 or something. Then someone changed it so both options were the same thing, and we have the result now.

 

[Zehner]

It isn't, just that you dont see how hard it is to be successful in all types of settings and environment, doesn't mean its hollow and meaningless. For example, in tennis, when you win the grand slam (all types of court), your status rises higher too. It isn't something just invented today for sake of discussion, its been around in many sports. Personally I would't rate Ronaldo winning Serie A to be very significant in GOAT discussion, but if he wins the CL with Juventus, it will be part of his legacy people going to discuss for many years.

Yeah, but you don't need to go to another league to do that. Both players have already proved that they can shine in completely different setups so I really don't see what's so special about that. Even the thought that someone as good as Cristiano or Messi wouldn't cut it in another league is just stupid. And if you don't think so, what's the point?

If this discussion wasn't Messi vs Ronaldo but Xavi vs Zidane or something like that you'd be laughed at for pointing out that Zizou is better because he did it in Italy, too. Not that it is ridiculous to think that Zidane is better than the Spaniard. Yet from all the arguments you could pick you chose the most irrelevant there is.

I've posted again, really should be more consequent

 

[Lynty]

Aside from Messi (and Pele), there's almost no one in history of football managed to maintain to be top 1 or 2 players in the world for 11-12 consecutive years like Ronaldo did, winning almost everything in sight. What makes you think in 10 years time some unknown kid can surpasses that?

Advancements in football science, physical conditioning and the rapid increase in the money involved and the professional mindset that comes with it.

Ronaldo has created footsteps for other youngsters with the right attributes and attitude to follow.

 

[Tostao_80]

In all honesty, even with Diegos prime being over 30 years ago, j struggle to find many people who will say that Cristiano is better than he was (apart from Gullit, and Ronaldos agent). GOAT calibre candidates in most people's eyes require talent of the very higgest order, of the likes we'll struggle to see again. I really cant imagine anyone watching peam Cristiano and saying, " ive never in my life seen anyone so good". Ask Rooney, Rio and Scholes (plus mang doubtless others). They only say that about a certain player. Cristiano is one of tge3 greatest players of all time. His basic talent level can never elevate him to GOAT status, just doesn't have enough. Leo on the other hand?

 

[the_irish123]

In all honesty, even with Diegos prime being over 30 years ago, j struggle to find many people who will say that Cristiano is better than he was (apart from Gullit, and Ronaldos agent). GOAT calibre candidates in most people's eyes require talent of the very higgest order, of the likes we'll struggle to see again. I really cant imagine anyone watching peam Cristiano and saying, " ive never in my life seen anyone so good". Ask Rooney, Rio and Scholes (plus mang doubtless others). They only say that about a certain player. Cristiano is one of tge3 greatest players of all time. His basic talent level can never elevate him to GOAT status, just doesn't have enough. Leo on the other hand?

Really hard to put him at top3 if all he does well is head the ball nowadays.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Yeah, but you don't need to go to another league to do that. Both players have already proved that they can shine in completely different setups so I really don't see what's so special about that. Even the thought that someone as good as Cristiano or Messi wouldn't cut it in another league is just stupid. And if you don't think so, what's the point?

If this discussion wasn't Messi vs Ronaldo but Xavi vs Zidane or something like that you'd be laughed at for pointing out that Zizou is better because he did it in Italy, too. Not that it is ridiculous to think that Zidane is better than the Spaniard. Yet from all the arguments you could pick you chose the most irrelevant there is.

I've posted again, really should be more consequent

Well it isn't, Zidane vs Xavi comparison is not relevant. As I said again and again, its very rare to find 2 players who has identical level of achievement. At individual level, Xavi never wins Ballon D'or, but Zidane did win it, and he also won world player of year 3 times. Xavi has won lot more trophies in Barca than Zidane did in his club career etc The only thing they have in common is their international career, both win WC and Euro. You can keep brining up all these irrelevant examples, but it doesn't help your case at all.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Really hard to put him at top3 if all he does well is head the ball nowadays.

I assume you never watched him play at all. For example, in last 2 round of CL, Ronaldo has more dribbles than any players in competition, more than Messi.

 

[Obi-Red-Kenobi]

This poll would be heavily tipped towards Messi if Ronaldo hadn't played for United.

Absolutely right. On any other thread in the world outside of Madrid and Portugal, that would be the case.

Either way, we’re lucky to be in a time when they are both around, and both still knocking the, in.

In 20 years time, people will think you’re crazy when some of their stats are shared, or dare I say it, discount it, because football didn’t start until a point in time that they choose.

 

[Hala Madrid]

I think Ronaldo is fantastic, I got nothing bad to say about him. I'm also not saying that Gullit is wrong, I think his opinion and the conclusion that Ronaldo is the greatest is a perfectly valid opinion. All I was saying is that I listened to the clip, and I hoped to get some insight into why Gulit thought he was the greatest of all time, and in my view his argumentation doesn't add up at all. Gullit might be extremely knowledgeable, and undoubtedly know lots about the game that I don't, but I don't think he's a good pundid, or at least not in this clip. For me he just spends 1 and a half minute talking about things that don't have anything to do with how good a player Ronaldo is, but instead repeat himself and doesn't expand on any of his points. I still don't know why doing it in Italy is relevant when we have yearly CL and LaLiga is a stronger league, or why Portugal winning a final (when he wasn't playing most of the game) makes him the greatest. If Gulit talked about what qualities Ronaldo has as a footballer that separate him from the rest I'd love to listen to him, but I didn't hear any of that.

If you've actually been watching Ronaldo for the past 10-15 years, you would be able to explain the last four lines by yourself, don't be patronising.
By the way, even if he stated them, you'd still argue that they're not impressive and then you'll start calling messi, that's the problem with messi fanboys....and it's a very bad approach

 

[Hala Madrid]

well the fact that its a man utd post and its 50 : 50 shows clearly who people believe is better.

If you break down the stats and be honest about it:
Ronaldo is on par in goals scored. Is better in the air 100%, but he is not better in any other department in the game of which there are many. Im not anti ronaldo, he is a great striker but that is what he is. Maybe he will go down as the greatest ever striker and you could argue the point but to be the greatest player you need more than goals and he doesnt come close to Messi in anything else.

Passing, vision, assists, team play, freekicks, dribbles, close control, awareness etc etc etc

To further star your ignorance and bias, you say he's a striker; cristiano Ronaldo is not a striker, anyone who says that doesn't know anything about football and doesn't deserve to discuss football with anyone

 

[Eboue]

hes a striker

 

[hellohello]

If you've actually been watching Ronaldo for the past 10-15 years, you would be able to explain the last four lines by yourself, don't be patronising.
By the way, even if he stated them, you'd still argue that they're not impressive and then you'll start calling messi, that's the problem with messi fanboys....and it's a very bad approach

I think you misunderstood me. I was not talking about Ronaldo or Messi, but about the punditry by Gullit. You don't need to put words in my mouth, I have watched Ronaldo for years, and he is absolutely fantasic. I don't think you can find a single post where I am talking down on Ronaldo. My comment was only a criticism of Gullits punditry where he doesn't talk about any footballing reasons when he calls Ronaldo the best, looking at the replies I've gotten from Ronaldo fans who believe I'm talking shit about him I probably shouldn't bother.

 

[Ish]

hes a striker

Cold.

 

[zkap]

Messi played in a better team than Ronaldo for over 90% of his club career and for 100% of his international career.

The fact Ronaldo’s accomplished so much not only in very different teams, systems and circumstances adds as much to his legacy as the fact he did it while not having anywhere near as much of the help that Messi did.

The idea that Messi has it tough because Barcelona weren’t able to replace the best team in the history of the sport is hilarious. No shit they weren’t able to replace them, there are no players anywhere near that level ffs.

I’m sure it’s funny to you as a Ronaldo fan. For me as a Barça fan, not so much. Since Guardiola’s departure, and that was way back in 2012, the highlight of Barça’s coaching appointments is Luis Enrique. Let that sink in. I can only imagine the outcry if Ronaldo was coached by Jordi Roura, only to be followed by Tata Martino.

Messi did not have it “tough,” as I clearly wrote that he wasn’t exactly suffering in Barça. The problem is not that Barça didn’t replace the best team in history, but rather that several key players weren’t replaced. Xavi’s replacement was signed in 2018 instead of 2014, and Dani Alves was never replaced (unless you consider Sergi Roberto to be a fitting replacement). I’m not talking about Barça signing another Xavi or Alves because they don’t exist. I’m talking about the club failing to sign fitting replacements, meaning players of similar profile and ability. Those are just two of the most glaring failures by the board, and I could name others. Imagine Zidane’s Madrid without Modrić and Marcelo.

But I understand that ignoring this goes well with your agenda, so who cares that Ronaldo was better coached for nearly their entire careers, save for Pep’s four years.

they both play for great teams so saying Messi has it easier just because he plays for Barca is equally ridiculous. peak Xavi and Iniesta Barca teams under Guardiola? yes, I agree, much better team than Madrid from the same period. but Barca from last 3-4 years? nope. you don't get destroyed by PSG, Bayern or Juve if you have the best team in Europe. we aren't talking about one loss and we aren't talking about narrow losses, we're talking about frequent and complete thrashings.

Indeed. First you have this misconception that Barça has nearly always had a much better team than anyone else, completely ignoring the fact the coaching appointments have traditionally been sub-par. This misconception is used to create the idea that Messi is playing in a perfect environment (this is why you won’t see the Ronaldo advocates address the difference in quality of the coaching), which is then the foundation for the suggestion that Messi underperforms because Barça can’t win the Champions League. The fact we are usually either thrashed by someone, or we look toothless/out of ideas against hard teams like Atletico and Juventus, is not a collective failure (lack of quality in the coaching department, lack of quality on the bench, lack of quality replacements for key players in several positions), but rather Messi’s fault.

I think longevity and adaptability is important, but I don't think you have to change environment to show those qualities if you compete at the highest.

I’d look at the quality of their teams and the level of competition they face to determine who is having more of a challenge. Ronaldo moved to a team that is untouchable in Serie A, Juventus don’t have anyone close to them in Italy and they have a superb team. I think staying in Madrid and trying to unseat Barcelona at the top of the Liga table, as well as Messi at the top of the Pichichi table, would have been more of a challenge for Ronaldo. I don’t criticize him for joining Juventus, it was a great career move. I just don’t accept this idea that somehow he had undertaken a massive challenge by going there, when in reality he has it much easier than he would have in Madrid. No Barça or Messi to compete with in Italy, and Juve aren’t a team going through transition.

I consider myself a good player. Everything I can do on a football pitch, Ronadlo has complete mastery over. But watching Messi, sometimes I just shake my head in disbelief, knowing I could never do/see the things he does.

Yeah, it’s not just that I admire the way Messi does something, I’m in awe of the fact it can be done to begin with. I never watched Ronaldo do something and think to myself “How is that possible”, but I had that feeling many times watching Messi.

Whether it’s him seeing a pass from the ground that I cannot see with the help of a wide view from a camera floating above the pitch, or dribbling past players with such ease, like the ball is glued to his foot, seems like it’s impossible to recreate even in a video game. When I watch Ronaldo, I admire what he does. When I watch Messi, I’m in such disbelief that I can’t help but laugh. Two completely different levels of football for me.

 

[Runner]

I thought Messi retired, he's so 2014.

 

[Peyroteo]

I’m sure it’s funny to you as a Ronaldo fan. For me as a Barça fan, not so much. Since Guardiola’s departure, and that was way back in 2012, the highlight of Barça’s coaching appointments is Luis Enrique. Let that sink in. I can only imagine the outcry if Ronaldo was coached by Jordi Roura, only to be followed by Tata Martino.

Messi did not have it “tough,” as I clearly wrote that he wasn’t exactly suffering in Barça. The problem is not that Barça didn’t replace the best team in history, but rather that several key players weren’t replaced. Xavi’s replacement was signed in 2018 instead of 2014, and Dani Alves was never replaced (unless you consider Sergi Roberto to be a fitting replacement). I’m not talking about Barça signing another Xavi or Alves because they don’t exist. I’m talking about the club failing to sign fitting replacements, meaning players of similar profile and ability. Those are just two of the most glaring failures by the board, and I could name others. Imagine Zidane’s Madrid without Modrić and Marcelo.

But I understand that ignoring this goes well with your agenda, so who cares that Ronaldo was better coached for nearly their entire careers, save for Pep’s four years.

When managers win, they’re great. When they don’t, they’re crap. Ancelotti and Mourinho were great? They’ve been fired from every job since they left Madrid though. Let’s see how Zidane’s career goes from now on too.

One played their physical prime years under Pep Guardiola while the other did it under José Mourinho, at a top club there isn’t a bigger disadvantage than that for a forward.

Besides, Ronaldo and Messi both have huge influences on their clubs. They play a part on who the manager is. Why do you think Tata Martino was Barcelona manager? There would have been no outcry for Ronaldo because it would have never happened.

Now can you actually imagine the outcry if Ronaldo had been born in Argentina while playing with the teams Messi played with and Messi had been born in Portugal playing with the teams Ronaldo played with?

 

[Prometheus]

. Don't get mad because you're wrong.

To be honest, you did start talking about something completely different after he corrected you.

 

[Devils11]

Have to be Messi. Every kids dream to be Messi , dribbling past 5 players and scoring playstation goals.
But the less gifted Ronaldo ,through his sheer determination and hard works ,have attained the same level of legacy with Messi.Both are untouchable in the last 10 years, in fact without Ronaldo, Messi would have won 10 consecutive Ballon d'O already..and vice versa. They have set the bar so high , no players are capable of replicating their standard in the last decade( 50 goals a season for 7 or 8 years ! ).