Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[padr81]

Firstly you are comparing a friendly to a competitive game, which is ridiculous.

Once Portugal scored the first goal, Spain took control of the game. It was only a De Gea error and amazing free kick that got Portugal back in it.

I’m also pretty sure Spain also didn’t change their manager 3 days before facing Argentina. Which would have obviously had effect on the players. But you carry on making pointless comparisons.

Hmm... so Spain would play harder and try more in a competitive game, you guys constantly comparing till it doesn't suit you then it's all of a sudden pointless comparisons.
Spain were always going to control the game because they play pro-active possession football, Portugal are built to let the other team control the game and play on the counter, over the 90 minutes they carved Spain apart numerous times (with Ronnie at the heart of it).

De Gea error... but it was all Ronaldo a minute ago, make your mind up.

The Spaniards have come out and said changing manager had zero effect on them at all and it was clear from how well they played that it didn't. Spain played very, very well and Portugal held their own. Argentina are incapable of that, how you can't see this given one are European Champions and one fell over the line in a relatively weak qualifying group, got hammered by Spain and have shown nothing in the group thus far is illogical really.

You guys keep trying to put it down to one man. One man doesn't win a Euro's especially when he's only scored in 2 of 7 games. Just like Messi didn't single handedly take Argentina to the WC final.

Are this Portugal team WC? No they are not. But they are very competent, play to their strengths and are balanced all over the pitch with Ronnie being the superstar. Argentina are nothing like that, yesterday they were literally Messi, Aguero, Otamendi plus 8 players who wouldn't start in a top half of the prem team.

Given Aguero only touched the ball 10 times, its literally down to Messi to do everything to get the ball to him, he can't. This is not something Ronnie has to deal with. Portugal can get the ball into attacking area's perfectly fine without him. Argentina can't, they need Messi to literally do everything between the halfway line and opposition box and he can't because well no one can.

 

[Kyriacandro]

Why is ronaldo so far ahead because he scored some goals in the group stage of the world cup. IMO neither are the goat but to say ronaldo is so far ahead is just silly.

 

[Revan]

Xavi was the MVP of the 2008 Euro yet he only scored one goal, fraud.
Iniesta MVP of the 2012 Euro, 0 goals
Zagorakis, MVP of the 2004 Euro, another goalless phony
ZIdane, MVP of Euro 2000, 2 goals, Kluiver was robbed
Sammer, MVP in England 96. A Defender? HOW!
Korea 2002, Ronaldo scores 8, Kahn gets the MVP

Is it that hard to believe that a player can be the best of a tournament and not score in 4 games?.

All those players you mentioned were midfielders (bar the German great keeper). Messi is an attacker playing in a free role with 0 defensive duties.

 

[Peyroteo]

Xavi was the MVP of the 2008 Euro yet he only scored one goal, fraud.
Iniesta MVP of the 2012 Euro, 0 goals
Zagorakis, MVP of the 2004 Euro, another goalless phony
ZIdane, MVP of Euro 2000, 2 goals, Kluiver was robbed
Sammer, MVP in England 96. A Defender? HOW!
Korea 2002, Ronaldo scores 8, Kahn gets the MVP

Is it that hard to believe that a player can be the best of a tournament and not score in 4 games?.

No, the problem is he was nowhere near it and everyone knows it. Just like one year from now you'll be saying Messi didn't score in these two games this World Cup but he was actually very good and you're going to bring his successful dribbles stats and his key passes stats to justify it despite everyone knowing he's been bad.

Just like it was exactly the case in the knockouts of the World Cup in 2014, he wasn't Argentina's best or even second best player in those knockouts. He didn't deserve to win player of the tournament ahead of a bunch of others and everyone knows it which is why people completely laughed at that decision when it happened.

 

[Bojan11]

Xavi was the MVP of the 2008 Euro yet he only scored one goal, fraud.
Iniesta MVP of the 2012 Euro, 0 goals
Zagorakis, MVP of the 2004 Euro, another goalless phony
ZIdane, MVP of Euro 2000, 2 goals, Kluiver was robbed
Sammer, MVP in England 96. A Defender? HOW!
Korea 2002, Ronaldo scores 8, Kahn gets the MVP

Is it that hard to believe that a player can be the best of a tournament and not score in 4 games?.

Messi isn’t there to defend or save shots. So not sure why you are throwing lists of defenders or goalkeepers winning awards at me. If Messi was a defender then it would be a logical comparison. But you don’t seem to think logically especially when it comes to Messi.

 

[MJJ]

Xavi was the MVP of the 2008 Euro yet he only scored one goal, fraud.
Iniesta MVP of the 2012 Euro, 0 goals
Zagorakis, MVP of the 2004 Euro, another goalless phony
ZIdane, MVP of Euro 2000, 2 goals, Kluiver was robbed
Sammer, MVP in England 96. A Defender? HOW!
Korea 2002, Ronaldo scores 8, Kahn gets the MVP

Is it that hard to believe that a player can be the best of a tournament and not score in 4 games?.

None of them are attackers.

"I would give heaven and earth to Leo, but when marketing people want him to win something he didn't (deserve to) win, it is unfair," said Maradona, the winner of the Golden Ball when Argentina won the World Cup in 1986.

"I could see that he didn't want to go up and collect it (the award)."

 

[Bojan11]

Hmm... so Spain would play harder and try more in a competitive game, you guys constantly comparing till it doesn't suit you then it's all of a sudden pointless comparisons.
Spain were always going to control the game because they play pro-active possession football, Portugal are built to let the other team control the game and play on the counter, over the 90 minutes they carved Spain apart numerous times (with Ronnie at the heart of it).

De Gea error... but it was all Ronaldo a minute ago, make your mind up.

The Spaniards have come out and said changing manager had zero effect on them at all and it was clear from how well they played that it didn't. Spain played very, very well and Portugal held their own. Argentina are incapable of that, how you can't see this given one are European Champions and one fell over the line in a relatively weak qualifying group, got hammered by Spain and have shown nothing in the group thus far is illogical really.

You guys keep trying to put it down to one man. One man doesn't win a Euro's especially when he's only scored in 2 of 7 games. Just like Messi didn't single handedly take Argentina to the WC final.

Are this Portugal team WC? No they are not. But they are very competent, play to their strengths and are balanced all over the pitch with Ronnie being the superstar. Argentina are nothing like that, yesterday they were literally Messi, Aguero, Otamendi plus 8 players who wouldn't start in a top half of the prem team.

Given Aguero only touched the ball 10 times, its literally down to Messi to do everything to get the ball to him, he can't. This is not something Ronnie has to deal with. Portugal can get the ball into attacking area's perfectly fine without him. Argentina can't, they need Messi to literally do everything between the halfway line and opposition box and he can't because well no one can.

Yes because they were clearly going to tell all their opponents that it has effected them. Great strategy that would be. You keep comparing competitive games to friendly games? Did you watch the game? Otamdendi your great Man City defender was atrocious. But it was a friendly.

Funny how you are absolving any of the City players of any blame.

Like I said you keep changing the goalposts. You wanna compare from 2016. Yet I can’t from 2014. You ignore the fact Argentina reached the copa America final in 2015 and 2016. Three finals for this so called awful team.

Argentina and Portugal the only difference is Argentina have a stack of attacking talent. Jose Fonte isn’t better than Otamdendi. The guy was struggling at West Ham and is basically semi retired in China. The difference is the Portuguese manager knows how to line up his side. Whilst the Argentine manager is clueless in his set up.

 

[padr81]

If Ronaldo stood still in the middle of the pitch we would create nothing too. Ronaldo's scored 4 goals, a penalty which he won after dribbling, a free kick in which he won after a long kick from the CBs, a corner and a simple horizontal pass across the box. Did Messi not have the exact same chances to score?

It's like you people don't even watch th games or understand how the sport works. Chances aren't created just by a player coming deep and trying to play 50 different short pass combinations, that's stupid. Messi's had more service to him in this World Cup than Ronaldo so far, the problem is he isn't Ronaldo and he can't do what Ronaldo does which makes it a lot tougher on his teammates to create for him.

Sorry buddy but this is false imho, if Messi stays up top the ball never gets to him, simple as. Did you watch Argentina's games, that's why he had to come deep. Aguero literally had 10 touches of the ball in an hour yesterday because he stayed up, Messi 22 in the first half, the further he was up the piched the less he got the ball. Look at Ronaldo's 2nd v Spain the DDG howler, he literally had to stand near the box and his team got the ball to him in a good position, this doesn't happen at Argentina.

Many times Raphael will get forward playing a 1-2 with a midfielder and Ronnie can get in a good position up top, this simply doesn't happen with Argentina, its either Messi comes deep and makes something happen or they midfield mess up and the ball never reaches the front 2. Portugal can get to good positions without Ronnie and are even better when he's involved, whether its tactical or ego or whatever, Argentina can barely get out of their own half without needing Messi to do it.

If Ronaldo plays in that Argentina team, they create even less than what they've served up thus far, but Ronnie does offer a bigger threat in the air or from set pieces.

You guys are far from world beaters (I think your Portugese..) and I believe Iran could upset you, but you are vastly more competent than Argentina who are even worse than I imagined. Even the coach has come out and (wrongly) said all his squad are terrible. I'll genuinely be shocked if Argentina beat Nigeria.

 

[Ban]

Isn't one of the big selling points of Messi that he makes the team better due to his overall game?

This was actually a large part of why I have Messi as better, because he is a playmaker as well. But I have been very disappointed with Messi under Argentina for several years. There is this idea that his playmaking is a bit overrated because of the personnel at Barca and there is growing evidence for it.

It used to be like that. In any case he's the reason they're there to start with but his 2 games were bad as it gets especially yesterday. As for Barca it wasn't always the same time but his career for Argentina at top stage should be better. A lot.

 

[Peyroteo]

Sorry buddy but this is false imho, if Messi stays up top the ball never gets to him, simple as. Did you watch Argentina's games, that's why he had to come deep.

No, he really doesn't. Ronaldo's teammates are worse and he doesn't need to come deep because he's more versatile and he has more weapons than that.

He'll get chances from set pieces, from counters, from crosses... the game becomes a lot more simple with Ronaldo on the pitch.

Aguero literally had 10 touches of the ball in an hour yesterday because he stayed up, Messi 22 in the first half, the further he was up the piched the less he got the ball. Look at Ronaldo's 2nd v Spain the DDG howler, he literally had to stand near the box and his team got the ball to him in a good position, this doesn't happen at Argentina.

It did happen, he had 3 very good chances yesterday exactly like that. Enzo Perez lob pass, a shot from outside of the box and a cutback pass from the left. He missed, just like he missed his penalty in the first game.

He's still had a lot more service than Ronaldo has in the past 2 games. One just relies on complex combinations and world class teammates to pull it off, the other relies on simple processes and can transform average balls put into the box into goals.

Many times Raphael will get forward playing a 1-2 with a midfielder and Ronnie can get in a good position up top, this simply doesn't happen with Argentina, its either Messi comes deep and makes something happen or they midfield mess up and the ball never reaches the front 2. Portugal can get to good positions without Ronnie and are even better when he's involved, whether its tactical or ego or whatever, Argentina can barely get out of their own half without needing Messi to do it.

Bullshit, for starters we have the option of hitting the ball up and he can hold it up from time to time. Messi can't do that. We get to the byline and cross it to the box for Ronaldo to head it... Argentina get to the byline and they pass it backwards because there's noone that great in the box...

From the two of them, the only one who has actually come deep and created any chances from it has been Ronaldo.

If Ronaldo plays in that Argentina team, they create even less than what they've served up thus far, but Ronnie does offer a bigger threat in the air or from set pieces.

Ronaldo plays for Argentina and they'd play counter attacking football instead of boring possession football, Di Maria would start and he'd love their deliveries into the box. Everyone would actually be free to play instead of trying to pass the ball to one player and their game would be much more dynamic.

You guys are far from world beaters (I think your Portugese..) and I believe Iran could upset you, but you are vastly more competent than Argentina who are even worse than I imagined. Even the coach has come out and (wrongly) said all his squad are terrible. I'll genuinely be shocked if Argentina beat Nigeria.

Argentina's squad is great. They've been doing great things all fecking year. They're not playing as well as they can because their system is crap.

 

[padr81]

Yes because they were clearly going to tell all their opponents that it has effected them. Great strategy that would be. You keep comparing competitive games to friendly games? Did you watch the game? Otamdendi your great Man City defender was atrocious. But it was a friendly.

Funny how you are absolving any of the City players of any blame.

Like I said you keep changing the goalposts. You wanna compare from 2016. Yet I can’t from 2014. You ignore the fact Argentina reached the copa America final in 2015 and 2016. Three finals for this so called awful team.

Argentina and Portugal the only difference is Argentina have a stack of attacking talent. Jose Fonte isn’t better than Otamdendi. The guy was struggling at West Ham and is basically semi retired in China. The difference is the Portuguese manager knows how to line up his side. Whilst the Argentine manager is clueless in his set up.

What are you on about? now your just picking because you've got some kind of problem with Ronaldo not being God. I said Otamendi was terrible yesterday many times, but regardless he is literally the only player to feature in the back 8 for Argentina yesterday who does play for a top team on a regular basis, thats in the words of Rafa a fact. Nowhere have I absolved him of blame for yesterday, but please do quote me if I did. I said he is the only semi-competent defender they have and yesterday he played beside a LB and Mercado who is primarily a RB in central defence. With Mascherano for cover, Baresi himself would struggle with that. But he was an embarrassment and should have got a red.

Yes Aguero had feck all part in the blame because he is literally the one Argentinian player who looked capable of scoring both yesterday and vs Iceland despite barely touching the ball, I also said he is the only Argentinian player I would give a 4 out of 10, the rest being below, Messi included. When he got the ball he at least had a go. Keep making stuff up though, asking how I'm feeling and if I need a drink because it'll make you feel good.

Are you really saying the Copa is on a par with the Euro's? In 2015, Argentina beat Colombia on pens, Paraguay and lost to Chile on pens. In 2016 they played Venezuela and USA (two teams who couldn't make the WC) in the knockouts and before again coming up short vs Chile (who didn't qualify for the WC). Look at how SA teams have done thus far. Colombia beaten by Japan, Peru beaten twice, Uruguay scraping wins against two teams Russia hammered, Brazil struggled vs Switzerland. The fact Brazil coasted the qualifying group and Argentina fell over the line should be telling.

2016 had most teams using very similar squads, 2014 didn't. You can compare 2014 all you like and again you'll find Messi's 2014 and Ronaldo's 2016 very similar, particularly the knockouts.

Messi doesn't get a free pass at all and I've already said he's been very poor but its no coincidence with a better team behind him Messi has went further than Ronnie in the CL and WC, and now the shoe is on the other foot Ronnie is going further than Messi.

 

[shamans]

Lionel Messi vs Croatia

0 goals
0 assists
1 chance created
4 dribbles completed
1 key pass
7 times dispossessed
2 fouls given away
42% pass accuracy
4 times caught offside
3 shots off target

shocking

Hey but he made so many passes and plays against the mighty Iceland!! @Zehner

 

[Ishdalar]

All those players you mentioned were midfielders (bar the German great keeper). Messi is an attacker playing in a free role with 0 defensive duties.

None of them are attackers.

Messi and Zidane wear the number 10 by chance

Only difference, defensive duties, not that Iniesta killed himself defending in 2012 anyway.

Messi isn’t there to defend or save shots. So not sure why you are throwing lists of defenders or goalkeepers winning awards at me. If Messi was a defender then it would be a logical comparison. But you don’t seem to think logically especially when it comes to Messi.

I'm the one not thinking logically, k.

No, the problem is he was nowhere near it and everyone knows it. Just like one year from now you'll be saying Messi didn't score in these two games this World Cup but he was actually very good and you're going to bring his successful dribbles stats and his key passes stats to justify it despite everyone knowing he's been bad.

Just like it was exactly the case in the knockouts of the World Cup in 2014, he wasn't Argentina's best or even second best player in those knockouts. He didn't deserve to win player of the tournament ahead of a bunch of others and everyone knows it which is why people completely laughed at that decision when it happened.

2014: "Probably doesn't deserve being named player of the tournament"
2016: "Wasn't even the best player in Argentina"
2018: "Not even the second best player"
2026: "Remember when Argentina carried Messi to the 2016 final?"

 

[MJJ]

Messi and Zidane wear the number 10 by chance

Only difference, defensive duties, not that Iniesta killed himself defending in 2012 anyway.



I'm the one not thinking logically, k.



2014: "Probably doesn't deserve being named player of the tournament"
2016: "Wasn't even the best player in Argentina"
2018: "Not even the second best player"
2026: "Remember when Argentina carried Messi to the 2016 final?"

ZIdane is closer to iniesta/riquelme than messi.

 

[Ishdalar]

ZIdane is closer to iniesta/riquelme than messi.

Messi in Brazil 2014 and this year was closer to Iniesta/Riquelme than to Ronaldo, yet you guys keep comparing both of them.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

In terms of performances between the age of 20-30, messi is the best player in history.

In terms of performances from the age of 30+, ronaldo is the best player in history.

I have zero doubts about those statements. It was laughable to suggest ronaldo as the best player in history 3-4 years ago. But what he’s done in his 30s is far beyond what we’ve come to expect from footballers, it’s insane, and he’s now rightfully in the discussion.

The world favours ronaldo just now, but if Iran beat Portugal, and Messi scores in a 1-0 win v Nigeria that sends Argentina through, watch how quickly that swings back in Messi’s favour. It’s a fickle world we live in.

I hope they both stay on five ballon d’ors. Let the world debate it forever. No one is right or wrong, there’s almost a counter claim for every argument in favour of one or the other, which in itself is nuts.

 

[padr81]

No, he really doesn't. Ronaldo's teammates are worse and he doesn't need to come deep because he's more versatile and he has more weapons than that.

He'll get chances from set pieces, from counters, from crosses... the game becomes a lot more simple with Ronaldo on the pitch.

Hmm, so counters don't involve teammates breaking up the pitch and Ronnie does the entire thing himself?

It did happen, he had 3 very good chances yesterday exactly like that. Enzo Perez lob pass, a shot from outside of the box and a cutback pass from the left. He missed, just like he missed his penalty in the first game.

He's still had a lot more service than Ronaldo has in the past 2 games. One just relies on complex combinations and world class teammates to pull it off, the other relies on simple processes and can transform average balls put into the box into goals.

Are you serious, that lob pass was too far ahead of him, the shot from outside the box was closed down and I don't remember the cutback pass.
The penalty of course was a shockingly bad effort.

Bullshit, for starters we have the option of hitting the ball up and he can hold it up from time to time. Messi can't do that. We get to the byline and cross it to the box for Ronaldo to head it... Argentina get to the byline and they pass it backwards because there's noone that great in the box...

From the two of them, the only one who has actually come deep and created any chances from it has been Ronaldo.

Again Ronaldo has been deep near as much as Messi and when he has come deep its been on the counter, you are comparing apples and oranges, you just said not 5 minutes ago, Ronaldo doesn't need to come deep. Unfortunately for Messi he does or he doesn't get the ball.

Ronaldo plays for Argentina and they'd play counter attacking football instead of boring possession football, Di Maria would start and he'd love their deliveries into the box. Everyone would actually be free to play instead of trying to pass the ball to one player and their game would be much more dynamic.

Argentina's squad is great. They've been doing great things all fecking year. They're not playing as well as they can because their system is crap.

The are incapable of playing counterattacking football (Di Maria aside). They pass to one player because they aren't able to do anything without him. Thats the point.
Great things all year? Like what?
I agree the system is crap and I agree Messi has been pretty shite, I also agree Portugal are getting much more out of Ronnie with a squad who aren't world beaters, but I don't agree this Argentina squad is anything other than poor (front 4 aside).

As a side note, if Messi is the reason Icardi is sat at home, then he should carry the can for that. Argentina's squad is hugely overrated because they have 5 great players (6 when Di Maria can be arsed) but those 6 players excel in only 2 positions.

If I have to put the best 6 players from both squads in a list its Ronnie and 5 Argentinians. The problem is the worst 6 players are all Argentinian too and those 5 top players can't be in the same team. You guys are better in defence, far better in goal (granted this gap would be smaller was Romero available), have a competent midfield who are superior to Argentina's, its only up top you are weaker and Ronaldo more than makes up for that.

 

[MJJ]

Messi in Brazil 2014 and this year was closer to Iniesta/Riquelme than to Ronaldo, yet you guys keep comparing both of them.

I havent mentioned ronaldo once in this thread in comparison of the current WC or the 2014 one.

Although I still disagree with him being closer to those two, find me one game where they had ten shots on goal. He isnt dictating tempo or running the game like those two at their best could do.

 

[padr81]

Hey but he made so many passes and plays against the mighty Iceland!! @Zehner

And proven to be lies and not facts at all, but hey...

 

[shamans]

Messi and Zidane wear the number 10 by chance

Only difference, defensive duties, not that Iniesta killed himself defending in 2012 anyway.



I'm the one not thinking logically, k.



2014: "Probably doesn't deserve being named player of the tournament"
2016: "Wasn't even the best player in Argentina"
2018: "Not even the second best player"
2026: "Remember when Argentina carried Messi to the 2016 final?"

Man you are completely delusional when it comes to Messi. You are now comparing him to Zidane a totally different style of player and justifying his lack of performances.

You are only insulting Messi himself if you truly think he has been performing well.

Also the way everyone rewrites the World Cup/Copa history of Messi dragging his poor little Argentina side (filled with world class players who were on form) is sad and false.

I think the most beautiful part of this all is how Messi fans would call ronaldo penaldo but for obvious reasons You would never hear that now!

 

[shamans]

And proven to be lies and not facts at all, but hey...

Meh ignoring the stats it’s not like he did much. Guy went missing all game

 

[padr81]

In terms of performances between the age of 20-30, messi is the best player in history.

In terms of performances from the age of 30+, ronaldo is the best player in history.

I have zero doubts about those statements. It was laughable to suggest ronaldo as the best player in history 3-4 years ago. But what he’s done in his 30s is far beyond what we’ve come to expect from footballers, it’s insane, and he’s now rightfully in the discussion.

The world favours ronaldo just now, but if Iran beat Portugal, and Messi scores in a 1-0 win v Nigeria that sends Argentina through, watch how quickly that swings back in Messi’s favour. It’s a fickle world we live in.

I hope they both stay on five ballon d’ors. Let the world debate it forever. No one is right or wrong, there’s almost a counter claim for every argument in favour of one or the other, which in itself is nuts.

This x 1000 and one of the reasons I feel Ronaldo may go down as the greatest is because I think he will outlast Messi despite being older. Neither should have 5 BDO though, both should be on 4 imho. I don't think there will ever be a player who can do what Ronaldo has done in his 30's or make the changes he has to stay at the top.

 

[padr81]

Meh ignoring the stats it’s not like he did much. Guy went missing all game

So your last post is shite then... and yes he did indeed go missing all game, I'd say he even had a bit of a meltdown before, during and after.

 

[JPRouve]

One thing that I find interesting with Messi and Ronaldo is that when they have a bad game it's a shamefully bad one. Messi alternates between Houdini like disappearances and periods where he tries to dribble 10 players while Ronaldo takes the ball from anywhere and tries to shoot from +40 meters.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

There's a massive difference between a 20M population and 334,000. In fact, that's a 1,000% difference. You should actually read the studies regarding population. They are really well-written and thoughtful.

It's 6000%.

 

[Bojan11]

What are you on about? now your just picking because you've got some kind of problem with Ronaldo not being God. I said Otamendi was terrible yesterday many times, but regardless he is literally the only player to feature in the back 8 for Argentina yesterday who does play for a top team on a regular basis, thats in the words of Rafa a fact. Nowhere have I absolved him of blame for yesterday, but please do quote me if I did. I said he is the only semi-competent defender they have and yesterday he played beside a LB and Mercado who is primarily a RB in central defence. With Mascherano for cover, Baresi himself would struggle with that. But he was an embarrassment and should have got a red.

Yes Aguero had feck all part in the blame because he is literally the one Argentinian player who looked capable of scoring both yesterday and vs Iceland despite barely touching the ball, I also said he is the only Argentinian player I would give a 4 out of 10, the rest being below, Messi included. When he got the ball he at least had a go. Keep making stuff up though, asking how I'm feeling and if I need a drink because it'll make you feel good.

Are you really saying the Copa is on a par with the Euro's? In 2015, Argentina beat Colombia on pens, Paraguay and lost to Chile on pens. In 2016 they played Venezuela and USA (two teams who couldn't make the WC) in the knockouts and before again coming up short vs Chile (who didn't qualify for the WC). Look at how SA teams have done thus far. Colombia beaten by Japan, Peru beaten twice, Uruguay scraping wins against two teams Russia hammered, Brazil struggled vs Switzerland. The fact Brazil coasted the qualifying group and Argentina fell over the line should be telling.

2016 had most teams using very similar squads, 2014 didn't. You can compare 2014 all you like and again you'll find Messi's 2014 and Ronaldo's 2016 very similar, particularly the knockouts.

Messi doesn't get a free pass at all and I've already said he's been very poor but its no coincidence with a better team behind him Messi has went further than Ronnie in the CL and WC, and now the shoe is on the other foot Ronnie is going further than Messi.

So now you nit picking Argentina’s route to the copa America finals.

Portugal finished third in the Euros in a four team group. Behind the mighty Iceland and Hungary. They drew all 3 games ffs. They got lucky because UEFA invented this bollocks of third place teams getting second chances.

Any normal non dumbed down tournament and they would have been out. They conceded 3 goals to Hungary. Did Hungary make the World Cup finals? Did Wales? You wanna mention the teams Argentina beat that didn’t make it. I’d do the same.

I don’t care about Ronaldo or Messi. I’m just trying to get through your head that Argentina and Portugal there isn’t a massive difference like you seem to think so. One has four of the best strikers in the world. Whilst the other still brings Quareshma to tournaments.

 

[Ishdalar]

Man you are completely delusional when it comes to Messi. You are now comparing him to Zidane a totally different style of player and justifying his lack of performances.

You are only insulting Messi himself if you truly think he has been performing well.

Also the way everyone rewrites the World Cup/Copa history of Messi dragging his poor little Argentina side (filled with world class players who were on form) is sad and false.

I think the most beautiful part of this all is how Messi fans would call ronaldo penaldo but for obvious reasons You would never hear that now!

Sorry, am I talking about today here?, have I said Messi performed well today?

My posts today.

Well, the team that needed Leo to score 3 goals in the last qualifying match to be here, the same ones where no player other than Messi scored in the last 6 qualifier games were hailed as "WC contenders" because they had Leo Messi, it was always about winning the tournament for glory, or failing to do so for shame, again.

Precognition kicks in.

How dare him, doing nothing from his starting positions. You don't ask for him to do something special, more like legendary if you want him to score or assist from these situations (favourite moment, M

Me, acknowledging that he got nothing done

Really, you guys have been talking about the level of this Argentina squad, have you actually watched a single minute of Argentina in this World Cup? Do you put 0 merit in a single guy having to dribble past at least 2 players if he wants a chance to try and get anything done for his team?

Same post, second time I say he tried to get anything done, I'm not saying he actually did anything.

Leo wasn't blameless tonight, I get what he's trying to do when he "walks his defender" to the opposite side of the pitch when covered, or how he isolates himself on the other wing, 30 meters away from the ball sometimes, technically it would be the right thing to do, and it's how he's been playing all his career, but I think a lot of the time he's not reading what the team really needs of him, instead of what the team should do.

Already happened vs Iceland, he was obnoxious about shooting every foul from different distances, or trying his signature move a little too much. He's pulling some of those things only he can do, but he's not helping Argentina gel together, no matter how atrocious some players might be, he's not winning this alone, he should've learned that from his past 2 WC experiences.

Because, even if they materialize in nothing, him getting 11 dribbles in a World Cup game is something that he and maybe 2 more players can do right now.

Yup, they should be praying for Nigeria to win today, but if I had to bet money in an Argentina vs Nigeria with 2nd place on the line, I'd bet on Nigeria right now.

I think he's doing so good, that I don't believe he has a fair chance against a team he destroyed 4 years ago.

 

[padr81]

So now you nit picking Argentina’s route to the copa America finals.

Portugal finished third in the Euros in a four team group. Behind the mighty Iceland and Hungary. They drew all 3 games ffs. They got lucky because UEFA invented this bollocks of third place teams getting second chances.

Any normal non dumbed down tournament and they would have been out. They conceded 3 goals to Hungary. Did Hungary make the World Cup finals? Did Wales? You wanna mention the teams Argentina beat that didn’t make it. I’d do the same.

I don’t care about Ronaldo or Messi. I’m just trying to get through your head that Argentina and Portugal there isn’t a massive difference like you seem to think so. One has four of the best strikers in the world. Whilst the other still brings Quareshma to tournaments.

This is where you're wrong, I've never said there is a huge difference between the teams, not once. I simply said Argentina are shite. Portugal are better but no world beaters either so I don't know where you pulled that from. I've also acknowledged all the things you said about Portugal at Euro 2016. But nonetheless they got the job done when Ronaldo was on form, when he wasn't and when he was injured. They also beat a much fancied France without Ronaldo. Argentina are incapable of beating anyone without Messi. Pretty sure I've said many times in this thread, Portugal aren't great and I think Iran may turn them over unless Ronnie turns up.

The difference is Portugal could lose to Iran or more likely beat them, I'd be 50-50 on where Argentina would beat Iran in their current incarnation given what I've seen so far, with Messi struggling I think Iran would turn them over given how organised they are.

 

[fishfingers15]

there is a match going on!!

 

[Zehner]

Hey but he made so many passes and plays against the mighty Iceland!! @Zehner

Not only against the mighty Iceland. But I won't bother you with any arguments that scratch deeper than the absolute surface, no worries

 

[MJJ]

there is a match going on!!

Yeah to find out who is better, messi or ronaldo!

 

[fishfingers15]

Yeah to find out who is better, messi or ronaldo!

Or maybe to rule out Neymar from being added in this thread

 

[shamans]

Not only against the mighty Iceland. But I won't bother you with any arguments that scratch deeper than the absolute surface, no worries

When the obvious goes against you of course you have to "scratch deeper" and perform all sorts of mental gymnastics

So your last post is shite then... and yes he did indeed go missing all game, I'd say he even had a bit of a meltdown before, during and after.

Well I didn't know it was fake but my point stands he was bad. There are people on here unwilling to accept Messi's last two games were not better than Ronaldo's. Delusion to the max.

 

[padr81]

When the obvious goes against you of course you have to "scratch deeper" and perform all sorts of mental gymnastics



Well I didn't know it was fake but my point stands he was bad. There are people on here unwilling to accept Messi's last two games were not better than Ronaldo's. Delusion to the max.

Of course they were worse, shockingly so. I can only speak for myself but my issue is with those who say Messi "never" turns up for Argentina and Ronnie "always" turns up for Portugal.
This tournament of course and late end of the CL Messi has been poor and Ronaldo has been immense. I also see strange parallels between Ronnie and Portugal 2016 and Messi, Argentina 2018. Of course Ronnie was as bad first two games 2016 but he was slaughtered after 2 games. The difference is I don't see Argentina getting anywhere near the trophy even if they scrape out of the group.

 

[Miscemayl]

Mate, that is bollox, and from a United supporter. In 2008 Ronaldo was up front for us in a front 3 of possibly the best front three we've had in the last 20 years of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez. That same team he played with arguably the best CB pairing we've ever had. We had nearly two full strength teams at that time. He was surrounded with talent.

When he signed for Real for a world record fee, the world record lasted about 2 weeks before they signed Bale. He has plenty of talent around him in that Real team, to claim otherwise is just stupid.

Mate, Rooney and Tevez were not in the top 3 for Ballon D'Or, regardless of how great we think that front 3 was.

There's a difference between having talent and having the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world playing with you. And every single time Messi won it, he's playing with the number 3 player in the world. In one year, he had the 2nd AND 3rd.

He's not won it when there's no teammate in the top 3.

 

[shamans]

Of course they were worse, shockingly so. I can only speak for myself but my issue is with those who say Messi "never" turns up for Argentina and Ronnie "always" turns up for Portugal.
This tournament of course and late end of the CL Messi has been poor and Ronaldo has been immense. I also see strange parallels between Ronnie and Portugal 2016 and Messi, Argentina 2018. Of course Ronnie was as bad first two games 2016 but he was slaughtered after 2 games. The difference is I don't see Argentina getting anywhere near the trophy even if they scrape out of the group.

Ronnie didn't go missing in some of the important games for Portugal in Euro 2016.

As for Messi "NEVER" turning up well you have to understand we are comparing Messi to Ronaldo. Even if the difference is super minimal (which I don't think it is in internationals) it will be a big talking point. Messi just doesn't show up as often as Ronaldo does for his international team and that's all I am saying.

If you compare Messi's international contributions to any other player he would likely be way ahead but we are talking about during moments when it matters. Moments when the team needs calm nervous to claim the win and Messi had bottled it quite a few times for Argentina in those moments.

To summarize, Ronaldo has done more for his national side than Messi has. The trophies don't lie. You can't conclude Messi has done nothing for Argentina. He has helped them and won them games on his own as well but during clutch games and overall, it's a different story.

 

[shamans]

Mate, Rooney and Tevez were not in the top 3 for Ballon D'Or, regardless of how great we think that front 3 was.

There's a difference between having talent and having the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world playing with you. And every single time Messi won it, he's playing with the number 3 player in the world. In one year, he had the 2nd AND 3rd.

He's not won it when there's no teammate in the top 3.

I think the annoying part for me is this does not discredit Messi but some of us have to bring it up when the same supporters complain about Barcelona's lack of quality compared to Madrid's in recent years.

 

[padr81]

Ronnie didn't go missing in some of the important games for Portugal in Euro 2016.

As for Messi "NEVER" turning up well you have to understand we are comparing Messi to Ronaldo. Even if the difference is super minimal (which I don't think it is in internationals) it will be a big talking point. Messi just doesn't show up as often as Ronaldo does for his international team and that's all I am saying.

If you compare Messi's international contributions to any other player he would likely be way ahead but we are talking about during moments when it matters. Moments when the team needs calm nervous to claim the win and Messi had bottled it quite a few times for Argentina in those moments.

To summarize, Ronaldo has done more for his national side than Messi has. The trophies don't lie. You can't conclude Messi has done nothing for Argentina. He has helped them and won them games on his own as well but during clutch games and overall, it's a different story.

But this is my whole point, a goal from Eder while Ronaldo was spectating is the difference. As i said earlier, if its Aguero or Messi himself on the end of that ball Higuain is in WC final, we're not having this discussion. The defining moments for both national teams in their biggest finals have come from team mates, not Leo and Ronaldo. Eder misses and Higuain scores everything is reversed.

It's clear Ronaldo has been the better in the big games in the last few years and thus the best player in the last three years, but you go back to 2014 and it was people saying Messi was the one for clutch moments and Ronnie the big game game bottler (which again was completely untrue and I'd likely be in this thread arguing the other way round). It's no surprise that when he had the better teams Messi was the man for big moments and now with the better teams Ronaldo is.

None of this excuses the Messi we saw yesterday, the attitude, the performance etc... but over the course of their careers I'd say they've both under performed at the WC with Messi having a good 2014 and Ronnie being immense so far.
Whats debatable is "has messi currently lost his balls and head for Argentina since 2016?" For me thats a legit question, "Has Ronaldo suddenly developed the biggest balls in football over the last 4-5 years?" thats another legitimate question and in both cases I'd be tempted to say "Yes". But these things have swung on the basis of who had the strongest team.

I believe Ronaldo will retire with more BdO's, more major trophies (CL's) and the only way Messi finishes with a legacy like Ronnies is if Argentina somehow pull this off and Barca win a CL with Messi playing great at the business end. But I will always call out the myth "Messi fails for a great Argentina, while Ronaldo drags sunday league Portugal to titles styled arguments."

 

[Adcuth]

I really hate the way people go on about ronnys attitude and ego when to me messi strikes me as a spoiled little brat who gets in a strop when things dont go his way, yet nothing is ever said against him.

The way he stormed straight down the tunnel yesterday after a shambles of a performance without even considering approaching the fans who'd travelled to russia to watch him play shit is downright disrespectful.

Now reading the sky sports piece in the team saying how messi wants a certain formation to help him play better. Hes a fecking player in a team, if he cant play well in the tactrics his manager sets up them fecking drop him. It's like the world has to revolve around him at times. Decent player like but I've got a major dislike for him.

 

[MJJ]

But this is my whole point, a goal from Eder while Ronaldo was spectating is the difference. As i said earlier, if its Aguero or Messi himself on the end of that ball Higuain is in WC final, we're not having this discussion. The defining moments for both national teams in their biggest finals have come from team mates, not Leo and Ronaldo. Eder misses and Higuain scores everything is reversed.

It's clear Ronaldo has been the better in the big games in the last few years and thus the best player in the last three years, but you go back to 2014 and it was people saying Messi was the one for clutch moments and Ronnie the big game game bottler (which again was completely untrue and I'd likely be in this thread arguing the other way round). It's no surprise that when he had the better teams Messi was the man for big moments and now with the better teams Ronaldo is.

None of this excuses the Messi we saw yesterday, the attitude, the performance etc... but over the course of their careers I'd say they've both under performed at the WC with Messi having a good 2014 and Ronnie being immense so far.
Whats debatable is "has messi currently lost his balls and head for Argentina since 2016?" For me thats a legit question, "Has Ronaldo suddenly developed the biggest balls in football over the last 4-5 years?" thats another legitimate question and in both cases I'd be tempted to say "Yes". But these things have swung on the basis of who had the strongest team.

I believe Ronaldo will retire with more BdO's, more major trophies (CL's) and the only way Messi finishes with a legacy like Ronnies is if Argentina somehow pull this off and Barca win a CL with Messi playing great at the business end. But I will always call out the myth "Messi fails for a great Argentina, while Ronaldo drags sunday league Portugal to titles styled arguments."

Yeah if only messi was at the end of that chance.