That's statistics for you.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
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Take away Messi's and Ronaldo's goals. Who would you regard as the better player then?
No, it's not. In the past two seasons, I've found Messi to be more greedy and Ronaldo to be less greedy. I've seen, in that period, Ronaldo pass it sideways when he in a very good chance. I think if you look at the stats only two seasons earlier, the difference is greater. Since that first Ballon d'Or trophy he's not as crazy focused on himself. In the league and CL this season, Messi has 2 assists more in total. Ronaldo has always been one that's crazy productive and this season is probably his best yet whilst this season for Messi is better than his last it's still far from his best 2 and 3 seasons ago.
For me, looking at their statistics is a bit like reading about astronomy or the human gene. I'm so used to these facts that I just gloss over them but they really are amazing (Ronaldo and Messi different amazing but still, amazing). I find it tedious to elevate one above the other for the sake of it because they are both so damn good that they shouldn't be scrutinized like that.
You gave a comparison with Messi though. Care to do so with Ronaldo?
The ironic thing about this argument is that the people who defend Ronaldo use stats and numbers to promote his case and the people who defend Messi argue that this very fact is the reason Messi is better in the sense that we don't need to resort to numbers to see his greatness. I myself think that there is no contest really but I just feel it really is down to how you see the game in general. To some, it's a simple exercise with the aim to score as much as possible. To others, it carries a more romantic notion of flair and style. I can't say that one is wrong or right but I do feel it's odd to enjoy football on such a basic level.
I'm not elevated one above the other for the sake of it. It's because I feel it's so bloody obvious.
And there's no chance messi is anywhere near as greedy as Ronaldo. Not sure what your point is on that one.
And yes, that is statistics being misleading. You just agreed that messi is far far more creative yet the gap in assist isn't all that much. What does that imply?
It implies that Ronaldo is effective, that he's more prominent in dangerous areas. If you look at Squawka for example, Ronaldo isn't far off Messi in terms of chance creation, key passes pass completion and assists but Messi has almost twice as many passes per 90 minutes. The difference is bigger in the CL but in the league there isn't a huge difference.
I didn't say Messi was as greedy. I said he's gotten more greedy and Ronaldo less. If the price of milk rices whilst the price of oil drops, it doesn't mean that milk costs the same as oil.
The point is that "taking away the goals" is a ridiculous concept, who's the better keeper between Neuer and De Gea if they're not allowed to use their hands?
There is no way you'll ever get a clear answer to that from him.
Those are not equivalent questions. An equivalent question would be "who's the better keeper between Neuer and De Gea if shot stopping was disregarded". That would disclude their main task and allow comparison of other facets to their game such as footwork, leadership, command of area, aerial prowess etc.
Considering that those facets are all important parts of the game, removing something which both are equally effective at is not ridiculous at all. In fact it's completely logical.
Except for the fact that goal scoring is ultimately the only deciding factor for football games.
Except that it isn't the only factor at all. A defender's last-ditch tackle or goalkeeper's save (to name but two of the most obvious actions) can have just as deciding an impact on the result as a forward's goal.
Football results are decided by goals, and what you mentioned are part of stopping the opposition scoring, but ultimately, the results read Team A goals : Team B goals.
Messi all day for me
How? If Barcelona won against Madrid 4-1, and Messi assisted 4 goals while Ronaldo scored 1 goal, Did ronaldo have the better game? No chance.
Some other forward who actually does score goals?
Of course, but that doesn't mean that the goalscorer is automatically more valuable than players in other positions. Otherwise Emile Heskey is better than Peter Schmeichel or Iker Casillas.
That depends on the assists, if he tapped it 2 yards sideways for Xavi to score a screamer from 30 yards, it makes a huge difference from him dribbling past 4 players and passing the ball for Neymar to have a tap-in. That's why assists is such a poor statistic and mean so little.
As opposed to Neymar who did so much in this hypothetical scenario.
They're both prominent in dangeous areas. If you watch the two and cant see that messi is miles more creative and influential to the build up then you're not watching them properly. It's so obvious, even if one prefers Ronaldo.
Except that a win is not solely due to the guy that put the ball in the back of the net. It's the guy who starts the attacks, creates the opening and plays the final pass, and feck it, the guys who helped control the match for the last 30 minutes who play their part in the team scoring the goals as well.
Does this logic not apply for goals then if we're looking holistically at these players?
A player dribbles past 4 defenders and lays it off for another to tap it in. It's still a goal, but clearly the assister in this anecdote should get the plaudits, not the scorer.
Your arguments are always so tailored to being pro-Ronaldo, yet you don't consider the same logic going the other way. It's hilarious.
I would love to meet Cal to see what kind of person he is, he interests me in a specimen sort of way.
To be honest, it doesn't interest me whatsoever. I know the real reason behind this mindset and it's not that interesting for me personally.
But it's fine, he's allowed to have his opinion. To each his own.
Enlighten me please.
No, because a 50 yard screamer, dribbling past 11 players and a tap-in all count the same.
I do and can understand why some people prefer Messi, but it's only when people come out with stupid ideas like "Messi without goals still better than Ronaldo" that I've an issue with.
Same with assists really. Your logic fails again.
It's because he's a huge fan of Ronaldo. So like you say everything is tailored to suit that stance taken.
Having said that, I disagree with @kouroux statement that Messi without goals would be better than Ronaldo. Or maybe he mean't that assuming both would be without goals?
@Cal? I remember you used to be known earlier for your hate for Henry. Why was that?
Both would be without goals of course. Since they score more or less the same number of goals over the last 5 years, it's more interesting to look at how they influence their teams based on other criteria.
Your quote certainly did not convey that message.
I've no problem with you thinking that Messi without goals is better than Ronaldo without goals.
That I didn't think he was as good as some people thought he was.
My quote could be interpreted both ways tbh as "the goals" can be seen as meant for the two players.
So it's just a case of misunderstanding, let's just agree to disagree.
I can't believe this is even a debate. Messi can match Ronaldo's productivity, is hell of a lot more creative, a much better passer, a much better dribbler and nowhere near as selfish. Messi is the best striker in the world, the best winger in the world and the best #10 in the world. Credit to Ronaldo for piling on the goals and making it some sort of a contest but Messi is far far better.
It's not a debate, it's just one poster (Cal) arguing against everyone else for the most part.
Another one who threatened to detract from the glory that is CR7 by being comparably good, if not better, in the premier league.
No, this goes back to before that.
Messi is definitely more creative, better dribbler and much better passer, there should be no argument about that. In terms of end products (goals + assists), both are equal. But Ronaldo has his own unique strength which is second to none, although some people might not fully appreciate thoses, that is, most deadly in counter attack situation, movement inside the box and will/drive/determination to win/score goals.
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