Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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But saying this Ronaldo is the best version of Ronaldo... come on, that's a joke, you probably think I hate the guy, but 28 y/o Ronaldo would score north of 70 goals with the squad Real Madrid had the past 3 seasons, he was on another level, doesn't matter that he got the records now, he isn't better or close to that level.

I didn’t say that. I said he’s as efficient as ever now which is true.

He’s not nearly as dynamic as he was a handful of years of ago but is just as deadly if not more. He’s figured out that killer instinct and your statistics prove my point. Shoots less but has a higher conversion rate - that’s being effective as he’s adapted to stay on top, not drain himself/conserve his body. There’s a reason he doesn’t hover outside of the box like he once used to or take long shots or show off his skill moves; he’s just more efficient...not saying he’s the best he’s ever been because he was much more dynamic before which is rather obvious.
 
Xavi: “Barça’s been sleeping. The signings are pitful and those making decisions have no idea what’s going on”.
Well xavi knows

This is all known. They board have purposefully moved away from the Johan Cruijff philosophy. They had a chance to sign Modric, they were offered Kroos but turned him down for Rakitic. They could have signed Asensio for less than 2 million but bought Douglas essentially. Alcacer, Paulinho the list goes on and on.

Bartomeu is as big of a Madridista as Florentino himself as far as I'm concerned.
 
Reading through this thread has made me a little bit sad. It's goes to show how 'americanised' our view of sports has become. 3-peat? GOAT? This isn't basketball!

Noone ever had these arguements back in the 70s/80s/90s and even 2000s from what I remember.
 
They absolutely can as long as teams gift them a couple of goals per game while missing chance after chance

Did you watch those games? Did you watch the Euros final?

Did Ronaldo play vs Liverpool? Or is he still in lovrens back pocket?
 
Reading through this thread has made me a little bit sad. It's goes to show how 'americanised' our view of sports has become. 3-peat? GOAT? This isn't basketball!

Noone ever had these arguements back in the 70s/80s/90s and even 2000s from what I remember.

Yeah, excluding Portuguese/Real fans, I think most of those who favour Ronaldo in this thread are North American, whose sport culture is a lot more stat and athletics based.

I can abide that, but it's the hideous nomenclature that comes with it that grinds...

CLUTCH. HATERS. 3-PEAT.
 
Yeah, excluding Portuguese/Real fans, I think most of those who favour Ronaldo in this thread are North American, whose sport culture is a lot more stat and athletics based.

I can abide that, but it's the hideous nomenclature that comes with it that grinds...

CLUTCH. HATERS. 3-PEAT.

That's exactly what I think. I don't really care for American sports so I don't know if they are different in this regard but football is simply very, very hard to quantify since there are so many influence factors which cannot really be measured. Funnily, those statistics that really try to go in depth and quantify the impact of a player in form of passing, playmaking, dribbling, chance creation etc. are dismissed by the Ronaldo fraction and only the most superficial statistics like goals and maybe assists (if they happenn to fit the agenda) are accepted.
 
Did Ronaldo play vs Liverpool? Or is he still in lovrens back pocket?

I’d imagine right after ending the season with the champions of Europe he’s on holidays right now on a short break before joining the champions of Europe for the World Cup
 
That's exactly what I think. I don't really care for American sports so I don't know if they are different in this regard but football is simply very, very hard to quantify since there are so many influence factors which cannot really be measured. Funnily, those statistics that really try to go in depth and quantify the impact of a player in form of passing, playmaking, dribbling, chance creation etc. are dismissed by the Ronaldo fraction and only the most superficial statistics like goals and maybe assists (if they happenn to fit the agenda) are accepted.

That's because those other stats are obviously not telling of how good a player is at those things and it's why clubs don't use them in their analysis either.

Even in american sports, people don't just look at stats and say who is the best. There are plenty of different factors too and everything needs context which is why people disagree about which players are better than others just as much as in football.
 
@Peyroteo

What I find disturbing is when people break it down to Messi's being the best off 'talent' and Cristiano's ability being down to 'hard work and dedication' and then people start throwing out words like 'strong mentality'.

It's baffling and it's like people don't rememeber Cristiano Ronaldo in his Manchester United days nor do they realise Messi has to work hard to be in the shape he is in and stay in the top level. I'm going to post a long break down of what I think about both players sometimes in the coming months.
 
@Peyroteo

What I find disturbing is when people break it down to Messi's being the best off 'talent' and Cristiano's ability being down to 'hard work and dedication' and then people start throwing out words like 'strong mentality'.

It's baffling and it's like people don't rememeber Cristiano Ronaldo in his Manchester United days nor do they realise Messi has to work hard to be in the shape he is in and stay in the top level. I'm going to post a long break down of what I think about both players sometimes in the coming months.

I think that's only natural. Messi's talent on the ball does set him apart and so does Ronaldo's mentality about football. Obviously you need both a lot of work and a lot of talent to reach this level though.
 
I’d imagine right after ending the season with the champions of Europe he’s on holidays right now on a short break before joining the champions of Europe for the World Cup


When comparing Ronaldo to messi it's important to remember that Messi has a bigger contribution in almost every game. Ronaldo will be barely there but turn up with a goal or an assist in many games.

Both unreal players but Messi is a unique and no one does what he can do. Ronaldo on the other hand could be replaced by say kane or aguero and they would deliver similar amount of goals.

People were saying salah was as good as Messi but Messi is still the superior player .Salah can't do it the way Messi does . Messi dribbles like no other ever has. His passing, control, vision in every game is amazing. Rarely has a game where he is quiet. Always there. Salah on the other hand like Ronaldo has a lot of games where he does little.
 
When comparing Ronaldo to messi it's important to remember that Messi has a bigger contribution in almost every game. Ronaldo will be barely there but turn up with a goal or an assist in many games.

Both unreal players but Messi is a unique and no one does what he can do. Ronaldo on the other hand could be replaced by say kane or aguero and they would deliver similar amount of goals.

People were saying salah was as good as Messi but Messi is still the superior player .Salah can't do it the way Messi does . Messi dribbles like no other ever has. His passing, control, vision in every game is amazing. Rarely has a game where he is quiet. Always there. Salah on the other hand like Ronaldo has a lot of games where he does little.

Messi is unique and noone does what he does. Ronaldo is unique and noone does what he does. Salah is unique and none does what he does. They're just not as good at the things that impress you, they haven't been any less effective on a football pitch or had any less impact in what they added to their teams.

If you think that Ronaldo could be replaced by Kane or Aguero then I'm not even sure what to tell you. Bale on the last page, Kane and Aguero on this one. By next week he'll be replaced with Heskey.

Also, you say Messi dribbles like noone ever has? It's not 2010 anymore.
 
When comparing Ronaldo to messi it's important to remember that Messi has a bigger contribution in almost every game. Ronaldo will be barely there but turn up with a goal or an assist in many games.

Both unreal players but Messi is a unique and no one does what he can do. Ronaldo on the other hand could be replaced by say kane or aguero and they would deliver similar amount of goals.

People were saying salah was as good as Messi but Messi is still the superior player .Salah can't do it the way Messi does . Messi dribbles like no other ever has. His passing, control, vision in every game is amazing. Rarely has a game where he is quiet. Always there. Salah on the other hand like Ronaldo has a lot of games where he does little.
Ronaldo can be replaced by Kane or Aguero? :lol: I wonder why neither has won a single Ballon D'or whilst Ronaldo is on his way to a 6th.

If you think Messi is rarely quiet, I suggest you re-watch the CL QF, from the past 3 seasons.
 
That's because those other stats are obviously not telling of how good a player is at those things and it's why clubs don't use them in their analysis either.

Even in american sports, people don't just look at stats and say who is the best. There are plenty of different factors too and everything needs context which is why people disagree about which players are better than others just as much as in football.

No, that's not true, plain and simple. Databased scouting has been a HUGE topic for quite a while by now. Goalimpact, Impect/Packing Rate, Wyscout and so on are successful ventures and used by professional clubs. Midtjylland exemplarily is a club that accomplished the CL qualification completely by trusting such statistics you discredit. Of course you have to analyse them carefully but they have meaning and in fact are used by experts.
 
^^^ Cristiano Ronaldo cannot be replaced by Aguero. It would change the dynamics of Real Madrid. Real Madrid have no structure and depend a lot on individual actioin rather than a systematic process.

There have been many games where Madrid could not get the ball into Cristiano's feet when he is running in behind because they don't have a clear passing pattern. Madrid can play terrible football with no control of the game and then simply cross the ball and Cristiano Ronaldo would score a header.

Now, you can sit here and say heading isn't a great skill but for the way real Madrid play, it is almost a high chance of goal creation. It's not as simple as replacing player X with player Y. What are the team team dynamics? What is the teams structure? Who are the leaders? What are the dynamics with the coach? Can the incoming player face the pressure of Madrid? Will the teamates give the incoming player enough of the ball to make a difference (Bale in his first 2 seasons)?

There is so much more involved in a game than analysing an individuals supposed skill set when adapting to a team. Noone would have predicted (save for me and anyone with an understanding of the position game) that Gabriel Jesus and eve Raheem Sterling would move Kun Aguero to the bench but according to this sub and the English media, Kun Aguero is a 'great' striker. Which is it? Gabriel Jesus is a better footballer? He is better for the team? Guardiola doesn't know what he is doing? Again, it is not a simple answer.

As for Messi, I have said this before on another forum, he is a double edged sword. You cannot use positional play with him and Suarez in the same team except you play 3 at the back, because Messi always moves into the centre from the half space and Suarez is good in the centre and is awful as a wide player.

What about his work rate? If Barcelona offered Manchester City Messi for a reasonable price now I am 100% sure that Guardiola would reject it and rightfully so. Messi's wages would hinder their squad building and his lack of pressing would rub off on the team. Cruijff has always said your team mirrors your best players. Messi's wage has put Barcelona at a disadvantage as well. So you can't use positional play, and this affects the way youth players will be integrated into the first team as they have all been schooled in that way from the ages of 8 - 19. He lacks no workrate and so in big games, you can see that Barcelona defend with 8 players as Suarez has stopped pressing as it is a waste of time because Messi doesn't cover the closest passing option so Suarez just ends up being lethargic.

Also, Messi forces the team to play through him. This is a similar issue that Cristiano had originally with Real Madrid where he was taking almost 7-9 shots per game and was more involved with ball carrying and I mentioned before he was a tactical liabilty. He was never a winger but essentially a second striker who sometimes occupied the wings so Marcelo was always isolated and so when people said he could not defend I used to always say, nobody would look great at defending if you had to defend 50m by yourself and are constantly outnumbered numerically. Now that he has a lesser role, he is far better for the team even though his ball carrying ability is almost relatively non-existent. he finishes off moves now that the team creates and plays his role, allwoing others who are superior in other areas to allow him to be closer to goal to do what he does best which is what football should be about.

In the 09/10 season where they lost to Inter I actually believe that not all of it was down to Zlatan Ibrahimovic as some people tried to blame it solely on him. Messi wanted to play Centrally and even sent Pep a text about it saying if he didn't play centrally he would be on the bench. So what does Pep do, start both Messi and Zlatan, two players who need and force teams to play through them in central aras and it was relatively easy for Inter Milan to defend. Messi didn't want to play on the right where he wouldn't have as much influence and be a cog rather than the whole wheel.

Messi was becoming all encompassing even in Pep Guardiola's final season and that was one of the contributing factors that contributed to them not being as good the season before. He worked less off the ball, wanted the ball to feet, didn't create space and open up the pitch for teammates with his running. He is more powerful than Barcelona and it shows, especially with the last contract negotiations. Ronaldo simply doesn't have that power at Real Madrid. His workrate got worse and worse and there are even some rumours that Messi was a contributing factor to Pep Guardiola leaving. Can you imagine Pep doing what he did to Aguero to Messi? As usual, Johan Cruijff was right...

Messi needs to have more and more of the ball and so he dominates the team, when he is stopped, there is noone that can pick up the batton. It is the same issue Zlatan Ibrahimovic has had in his career. Messi is having a ZLatan effect on the team. This is why they have been a failure in 4/5 Champions League campaigns where teams can just pack the centre, but can dominate LaLIga like PSG dominated Ligue1 under Zlatan.

Watch Argentina. It doesn't help when the manager comes out and says the team is based around Messi. What does that do for his teammates mentality when they have the ball. Messi for Argentina is static and only wants the ball to feet and his teammtes always are under pressure to pass to him. If he constantly moved and opened up passing lanes for his team, I bet Argentina would look a lot better than they do now. All the players run so hard except him. I point to the Copa America in 2016 where Argentina routed Chile in the group stage but struggled against them in the final. Why is that? Watch the game. They pass the ball to Messi who is static and is then surrounded by 6 players and then players run off the ball but he can't get the ball to them, Messi is then forced to rely on his dribbling from deep against 2 blocks of players, something that he couldn't even do regulary at the peak of his dribbling. It happened over and over again. Whereas in the first game, the team ran for each other and opened up passing lanes for each other so it was easier to get the ball into the box. They will be in trouble without Messi for sure now because al their training and tactics is geared to giving the ball to him.

Cristiano for Portugal in Euro 2016 was not outstanding but he perfromed his role. The team don't have to constantly pass to him like they did before. If Ronaldo was at the same physical level he was at in his prime, I am certain Portugal won't have won the Euros because he would have tried to be the protagonist. He is much wiser and so waits for the right moment to intervene. is shot selection has improved relatiely as well as he was taking the most shots per season in Europe every season since Opta started recording data for the top 5 leagues. This is a main factor in Madrid doing a lot better now than what they did in his 'prime' in the Champions League as Madrid have done much better since Roanldo has been physically declining.

Messi is the superior footballer but it takes a certain ingredients for him to operate to full capacity and certain tactics and he has to dominate the given team tactics. Ronaldo is less involved but easier to get to be part of a functioning team. Essentially, it is easier to get the best out of Cristiano at present and he is more adaptable but if things are right and specialised for Messi then he takes the team to another level.

At this moment in time, if I were to pick one of them in my team I would go for Cristiano.
 
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^good post. I think Messi is clearly the superior player but that in itself can be a hinderence, as all his team mates defer to him, so all you have to do is stop Messi and the team stop working. You can see it in the build up, most the time they are looking for Messi and when you have players with egos like Neymar who were happy to surrender responsibility to Messi then you know it's a problem.

Coutinho seems to take on more responsibility when he's in the side, taking on shots and looking to playmake himself - Barca need more of that if they are to do anything in the CL because atm they are one dimensional.
 
^^ O boy. Getting the popcorn out for this one...
 
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@totaalvoetbal that's a great post and in general it’s pretty much what I’ve been trying to say these last few pages.

I don’t think Barcelona playing the way they play which is very often through Messi hurts them against the smaller teams since he's more than good enough for that and Barcelona manage to dominate those games anyway but I do think it makes them a lot easier to stop when it comes to the Champions League since they lack adaptability. With Argentina it's definitely been the case though, they differ way too much to Messi without the need to do so. They have the best attack in the world, out of any club or national team but if you watch them play you wouldn't know it. People say Messi's been carrying them but their system is their biggest problem since it's not getting the best out of other great players and Messi is by far the biggest cog in that system. People have blamed the coaches for it but the coaches have changed and from what I've seen things remain the same.

For Madrid and Portugal it's easy because they don't need a defined way of attacking, they can rely on set pieces, crossing, counterattacking, possession football, etc. which makes it a lot tougher to prepare against and it means other players can get involved more easily. They simply have more dimensions to their game and you can see this in every team Ronaldo has played for. Portugal and Madrid only need to get to the byline and they're in a position to cause danger while football is not as simple for Argentina or Barcelona.

I've said it here a few pages ago but I wouldn't take 2007-2010 Ronaldo for the World Cup ahead of the current one. He dribbled more and put the team on his shoulders but he wasn't better for the team than he is now.
 
^^^ Cristiano Ronaldo cannot be replaced by Aguero. It would change the dynamics of Real Madrid. Real Madrid have no structure and depend a lot on individual actioin rather than a systematic process.

There have been many games where Madrid could not get the ball into Cristiano's feet when he is running in behind because they don't have a clear passing pattern. Madrid can play terrible football with no control of the game and then simply cross the ball and Cristiano Ronaldo would score a header.

Now, you can sit here and say heading isn't a great skill but for the way real Madrid play, it is almost a high chance of goal creation. It's not as simple as replacing player X with player Y. What are the team team dynamics? What is the teams structure? Who are the leaders? What are the dynamics with the coach? Can the incoming player face the pressure of Madrid? Will the teamates give the incoming player enough of the ball to make a difference (Bale in his first 2 seasons)?

There is so much more involved in a game than analysing an individuals supposed skill set when adapting to a team. Noone would have predicted (save for me and anyone with an understanding of the position game) that Gabriel Jesus and eve Raheem Sterling would move Kun Aguero to the bench but according to this sub and the English media, Kun Aguero is a 'great' striker. Which is it? Gabriel Jesus is a better footballer? He is better for the team? Guardiola doesn't know what he is doing? Again, it is not a simple answer.

As for Messi, I have said this before on another forum, he is a double edged sword. You cannot use positional play with him and Suarez in the same team except you play 3 at the back, because Messi always moves into the centre from the half space and Suarez is good in the centre and is awful as a wide player.

What about his work rate? If Barcelona offered Manchester City Messi for a reasonable price now I am 100% sure that Guardiola would reject it and rightfully so. Messi's wages would hinder their squad building and his lack of pressing would rub off on the team. Cruijff has always said your team mirrors your best players. Messi's wage has put Barcelona at a disadvantage as well. So you can't use positional play, and this affects the way youth players will be integrated into the first team as they have all been schooled in that way from the ages of 8 - 19. He lacks no workrate and so in big games, you can see that Barcelona defend with 8 players as Suarez has stopped pressing as it is a waste of time because Messi doesn't cover the closest passing option so Suarez just ends up being lethargic.

Also, Messi forces the team to play through him. This is a similar issue that Cristiano had originally with Real Madrid where he was taking almost 7-9 shots per game and was more involved with ball carrying and I mentioned before he was a tactical liabilty. He was never a winger but essentially a second striker who sometimes occupied the wings so Marcelo was always isolated and so when people said he could not defend I used to always say, nobody would look great at defending if you had to defend 50m by yourself and are constantly outnumbered numerically. Now that he has a lesser role, he is far better for the team even though his ball carrying ability is almost relatively non-existent. he finishes off moves now that the team creates and plays his role, allwoing others who are superior in other areas to allow him to be closer to goal to do what he does best which is what football should be about.

In the 09/10 season where they lost to Inter I actually believe that not all of it was down to Zlatan Ibrahimovic as some people tried to blame it solely on him. Messi wanted to play Centrally and even sent Pep a text about it saying if he didn't play centrally he would be on the bench. So what does Pep do, start both Messi and Zlatan, two players who need and force teams to play through them in central aras and it was relatively easy for Inter Milan to defend. Messi didn't want to play on the right where he wouldn't have as much influence and be a cog rather than the whole wheel.

Messi was becoming all encompassing even in Pep Guardiola's final season and that was one of the contributing factors that contributed to them not being as good the season before. He worked less off the ball, wanted the ball to feet, didn't create space and open up the pitch for teammates with his running. He is more powerful than Barcelona and it shows, especially with the last contract negotiations. Ronaldo simply doesn't have that power at Real Madrid. His workrate got worse and worse and there are even some rumours that Messi was a contributing factor to Pep Guardiola leaving. Can you imagine Pep doing what he did to Aguero to Messi? As usual, Johan Cruijff was right...

Messi needs to have more and more of the ball and so he dominates the team, when he is stopped, there is noone that can pick up the batton. It is the same issue Zlatan Ibrahimovic has had in his career. Messi is having a ZLatan effect on the team. This is why they have been a failure in 4/5 Champions League campaigns where teams can just pack the centre, but can dominate LaLIga like PSG dominated Ligue1 under Zlatan.

Watch Argentina. It doesn't help when the manager comes out and says the team is based around Messi. What does that do for his teammates mentality when they have the ball. Messi for Argentina is static and only wants the ball to feet and his teammtes always are under pressure to pass to him. If he constantly moved and opened up passing lanes for his team, I bet Argentina would look a lot better than they do now. All the players run so hard except him. I point to the Copa America in 2016 where Argentina routed Chile in the group stage but struggled against them in the final. Why is that? Watch the game. They pass the ball to Messi who is static and is then surrounded by 6 players and then players run off the ball but he can't get the ball to them, Messi is then forced to rely on his dribbling from deep against 2 blocks of players, something that he couldn't even do regulary at the peak of his dribbling. It happened over and over again. Whereas in the first game, the team ran for each other and opened up passing lanes for each other so it was easier to get the ball into the box. They will be in trouble without Messi for sure now because al their training and tactics is geared to giving the ball to him.

Cristiano for Portugal in Euro 2016 was not outstanding but he perfromed his role. The team don't have to constantly pass to him like they did before. If Ronaldo was at the same physical level he was at in his prime, I am certain Portugal won't have won the Euros because he would have tried to be the protagonist. He is much wiser and so waits for the right moment to intervene. is shot selection has improved relatiely as well as he was taking the most shots per season in Europe every season since Opta started recording data for the top 5 leagues. This is a main factor in Madrid doing a lot better now than what they did in his 'prime' in the Champions League as Madrid have done much better since Roanldo has been physically declining.

Messi is the superior footballer but it takes a certain ingredients for him to operate to full capacity and certain tactics and he has to dominate the given team tactics. Ronaldo is less involved but easier to get to be part of a functioning team. Essentially, it is easier to get the best out of Cristiano at present and he is more adaptable but if things are right and specialised for Messi then he takes the team to another level.

At this moment in time, if I were to pick one of them in my team I would go for Cristiano.

Great post that describes the problems of Barca and Argentina very well; yet I don't agree with the conclusion.

The reason is, Messi always played that way. Messi on the right side was always kind of a challenge because he drifted inside and left the whole wing for the RFB and undermined the positional play. On the flipside of the coin, his individual brillance always outweighed these tactical indiscipline. First, Dani Alves grew into a role in which he essentially played RW and RB in one position, covering more or less unbelievable distances, in order to compensate Messi leaving his supposed area but later Guardiola created the role of the false nine especially to give Messi the freedom to roam the center.

At the very least after Vilanova, Barca was much more about individual brillance. The collective and systemic approach sidelined and the club broke the bank for Neymar and Suarez. It was essentially a transfer strategy Real Madrid was known for ("Galactico transfers") and they played that way. The typical "tiki taka" was only to be seen in the last third of the field when Neymar, Suarez, Messi and Iniesta one twoed their way into the box and superiority was primarily created through dribblings of Messi and Neymar on the wings.

Valverde at least tried to get rid of the tactical imbalances by moving Messi back to the center into the role of a second striker which is quite similar to the false nine. However, this requires a 4-4-2 system and the possession football suffers from this formation.
What Barca would need is a coach that take them back to their roots. If you want to play Messi in such a system, give him the false nine, provide wingers that make runs behind the defense and a midfield that has the technical abilities to play the Barca way.
Players like Suarez, Dembele etc. aren't really typical Barca players. Neymar could've been one but you don't need two of these players in the team.

As I said, I don't think that Barca had a coach willing to play that way since Vilanova and Argentina didn't have one since Pekerman which was before Messi became world class.

Ah and regardng the financial thing: Barca has a very expensive squad, even without Messi. The money is there, even though Messi earns that much, but it wasn't spent on the right players.
 
I've always been an ardent 'Messi is the goat' type of folk but even the biggest Messi fanboy must see how Ronaldo has an argument for that title himself. I now believe they are on par with eachother for different reasons - Messi, being a complete one off and frighteningly talented. Ronaldo for his desire and all round strength and the sheer big match mentality.

If you had to pick one player of all time to help your team win a match who would it be? I've always said Cristiano would be most fans, managers, etc pick despite Messi being the better footballer.

It is so subjective do it will never be unanimously agreed on. I am just grateful to have witnessed two of the greatest footballers this world has seen since it was formed.
 
I've always been an ardent 'Messi is the goat' type of folk but even the biggest Messi fanboy must see how Ronaldo has an argument for that title himself. I now believe they are on par with eachother for different reasons - Messi, being a complete one off and frighteningly talented. Ronaldo for his desire and all round strength and the sheer big match mentality.

If you had to pick one player of all time to help your team win a match who would it be? I've always said Cristiano would be most fans, managers, etc pick despite Messi being the better footballer.

It is so subjective do it will never be unanimously agreed on. I am just grateful to have witnessed two of the greatest footballers this world has seen since it was formed.
Impossible to choose. Like you said, Messi's natural talent is unparalleled, but Ronaldo is still neck and neck with him through sheer grit and determination. It's not like Messi bottles big games either. At this point I can't be bothered deciding who I think is better, they're both unreal and will probably go down as the two finest players of all time
 
Sorry, but it doesn't work this way, it has never worked this way. Maybe Messi is making them worse. Because we have seen Aguero in 2 different clubs, Higuain in three, and Di Maria at least in two being really, really good. But when they play with Messi, suddenly they are bad. Hmmm...
Why doesnt it? Messi puts chances on a plate for them and they all feck them up. If you look at entirely how they play for Argentina, that's how they should be judged as players when discussing Argentina. Also Argentina are dreadful without Messi. They are fecking beyond useless when he isnt on the pitch, while with him they've managed to scrape through to cup finals or even just making the World Cup this year. Messi missed a chunk of qualifiers and they almost fecked it up because of that run of missed games. Needed him to as always put them on his back and do it himself. Messi misses a friendly against Spain, and Spain feck them 6-1.

Look - I think Ronaldo is more influential in terms of bringing the rest up a level and motivating them to play together. But that's also due to the coaching. Messi does his thing all the time, but the others let him down time and time again. He set up multiple sitters in finals for others. It's more on the argentinean coaching and others for their failures then Messi imo.
 
Impossible to choose. Like you said, Messi's natural talent is unparalleled, but Ronaldo is still neck and neck with him through sheer grit and determination. It's not like Messi bottles big games either. At this point I can't be bothered deciding who I think is better, they're both unreal and will probably go down as the two finest players of all time
True. We are all fickle. Every single one of us football fans are. Remember Messi dominating Europe and winning 3 Balon d'Ors in a row. Remember that solo run against Madrid in the Semi of CL 2011. I've personally never seen such individual brilliance on that level.

But but but, I'm at the stage now where I think they are on par with eachother - for different reasons albeit. Ronaldo has definitely been the best player in the world for the past few seasons. To claim to be the best ever is another story. I'll happily admit I am undecided at this current moment.
 
I think this is a real debate. I've always held the belief that Messi was ahead of Ronaldo but I'm starting to think they are equal now. Messi's absolute peak was from 2009-2013 and if you ask the question back then he's definitely ahead but Ronaldo from 2013-2018 has fought back and has been better than Messi in this period. He has an incredible winning mentality but also his talent is undeniable and maybe he doesn't get enough credit on that part. He scores literally all kinds of goals and is pretty much the complete player. He beats messi for shooting, heading but messi is the better passer and more creative. It's a very balanced debate from both sides when you look at the football and not just the mentality.
 
The defining tournament for either one of those. Neither have great players surrounding them.

Is this serious. There’s some argument for why Argentina may lack the team cohesiveness of say a Germany but player quality wise? Messi has a massssive advantage there.

Anyway as I have always maintained it’s difficult to choose. The only people that have no clue about football are those that say messi is so better Ronaldo is top 10 only
 
Is this serious. There’s some argument for why Argentina may lack the team cohesiveness of say a Germany but player quality wise? Messi has a massssive advantage there.

Anyway as I have always maintained it’s difficult to choose. The only people that have no clue about football are those that say messi is so better Ronaldo is top 10 only

Except for the attackers - Argentina lack in other areas of the pitch.
 
The defining tournament for either one of those. Neither have great players surrounding them.
You think Higuain, Aguero and Di Maria aren't great players? Your standards of 'great' must be ludicrous.
 
The defining tournament for either one of those. Neither have great players surrounding them.
Maybe not "great" but Messi has some excellent options up front with him. When you can drop Higuain, you know you've got decent attacking options?

Ronaldo/Portugal have nothing like that to call on .... and similar lesser quality all around the pitch really.
 
The way I've always had this argument in my head is that these two are basically Goku and Vegeta.

Messi is Goku because everything is just absolutely natural to him. Watching him on his day can be magical at times and in a few decades time some of us will be lucky enough to tell the future generation that we witnessed these two incredible players take the skill that is required in football to a new plateau. On a pure footballing sense I think Messi is the better player. The way he plays is something that is inherited and is honed through experience and mastering of the craft.

Ronaldo is Vegeta because of his obsession of being the best. He is a physical Specimen who just seems to get better and better with age. How many interviews have we heard with former team mates of his talking about how dedicated he is in training. What he does off the pitch and on the pitch to ensure and conserve his place in the upper echelon of footballing history is nothing short of awe-inspiring. He is the biggest winner I have ever seen in Football and maybe even in sport. Say what you want about him but through sheer determination and grit he has managed to carve out the closest embodiment of footballing perfection I have ever seen.

TL;DR - They are both an unstoppable force and depending on what your subjective sense of what a footballer should be, that is what you should go with.
 
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Ronaldo's last 3 years in terms of big game performances is just madness. Completely outshone Messi in that regard.
 
Ronaldo now goes level with Ferenc Puskas (84 intl goals and only behind Ali Daei of Iran (and no offence but his opposition wasn't exactly top class regularly?)

That's Ferenc "all-time great" Puskas, part of one of the greatest teams of all time. Having teammates around him like Czibor, Hidegkuti and Boszic

That's above Klose, Muller, etc.

That's Ronaldo playing with a mix of ok/decent players.... and still scoring hattricks at 33, against a brilliant Spain team.

I'll always think Messi is a genius and beautiful to watch (like Cruyff and Platini) but greatness takes lots of forms and what Ronaldo has done/kept doing/is STILL doing is simply breathtaking. It's over ten years since he scored for us in the Cl final and he was already established then?!
 
Maybe not "great" but Messi has some excellent options up front with him. When you can drop Higuain, you know you've got decent attacking options?

Ronaldo/Portugal have nothing like that to call on .... and similar lesser quality all around the pitch really.

Patricio is better than Caballero
Guerrero is better than all their fbs Pepe is better than otamendi

Carvahlo is better than all their mfs

Silva had a better season than Di maria and Lanzini (who got injured)

Cedric is better than thier rb.

Portugal have a better gk and defence indivdually, better mf overall and maybe worse attack.

On paper Portugal have a more functional team and the best player in the world
 
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