Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Cal?]

Ronaldo has 13 more assists in European competitions in 33 more appearances. If they had the same appearances then Messi would dwarf Ronaldo’s assists.

Also I was only telling Cal that Messi having a similar number of goals and more assists is not a myth.

Check your stats, I posted a few pages ago Ronaldo has a much higher assist per game than Messi in the CL.

Just to save Peyroteo the bother;

What the feck! I can't believe I have to explain it to you AGAIN!? It's stupid to look at their whole career stats, because it makes Messi look better on paper and I don't like that, now here are a bunch of excuses I've constructed in my head to convince myself that we should disregard these sets of stats and only focus on the ones I like! And I'm also going to get indignant and incredulous about it, to make my tenuous reasoning more convincing and definitely not because I'm defensive about it!

Excuses like;

Messi was injured a lot when he was younger so his goal to game ratio is better over their careers as he played fewer games;

Messi being injured a lot when he was younger has been warped into a positive thing for Messi in the mind of those whom favour Ronaldo. How many young players have had their promising careers halted by injuries as they were developing? Bet you can name a lot. Now can you name any that benefited from being injured a lot in their youth? No, of course you can't because it's stupid. Messi did, however, according to Peyroteo and Cal. Messi being stuck on the treatment table, not being able to practice his finishing or with his team mates had no effect on his development, apparently. Getting less game time and having to get back to match fitness helped too. They speculate that Messi would have continued developing and scoring at the same rate he did when he was consistently injured, if he wasn't, whereas I think it is far more likely that he would have developed into a better player quicker, had a longer prime and therefore his goal per game ratio would be better than it is now. Either way it's all speculation and the truth is Messi has the better overall career stats so far.

Ronaldo played as a conventional winger and Messi as a wide forward;

Ronaldo played as a winger, but he played as a winger because that's what he was suited to. He had the best manager of all time (Cal's words), one of the best at developing young talents, mentoring him and he decided Ronaldo in his early years wasn't productive enough to have that attacking freedom. Once he developed into that player, SAF gave him complete freedom to attack. Also, he played as a winger but he wasn't a disciplined one, I remember Neville saying that playing behind Ronaldo was frustrating as he seldom tracked back, although it was actually Ronaldo who changed Neville's views on football and that special talents should only concentrate on attacking. Messi played as a wide forward but was always pressing and happy to track back when he was younger, he's lazy as feck now but that wasn't the case when he was younger.

In the end, Messi was better when he was younger and it's ridiculous to disregard that part of their careers because it favours Messi.

Also, for the record, I think assists are a pretty useless stat.

The fact is that both scored few goals per game when they were younger than later in their career. It's simple mathematics that the fewer games you play with a poorer record, the less that poorer record affects your career record.

Ronaldo is a total average footballer when he's not receiving service in the box, how anyone who watches both of them play can say it's even a competition is a total joke

Messi is levels above Ronaldo as a player, it shouldn't even be up for debate

The one thing i'll credit Ronaldo for is his work ethic and determination to win, not many players have his hunger and desire to keep performing at the highest level like has done for the last 10+ years

He's a great goalscorer but as a player for me he can't even touch Zidane or Messi

Levels?!?

It really is hilarious how the higher the rest of the world rate Ronaldo in the last few years, with the Ballon D'ors and Messi bottling CLs and Copas again and again, the more over the top the Messi brigade rate their idol.

It's almost as if they think the bigger their lie, the more people will believe part of it.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Check your stats, I posted a few pages ago Ronaldo has a much higher assist per game than Messi in the CL

I did say European competitions not CL. I couldn’t be bothered to go and check CL alone.

Assists may all count as the same but you can’t fool yourself to think Ronaldo is as creative as Messi. Return pass across the box is not the same as a dazzling dribble past a couple of players before laying it off for a team mate or a defence splitting pass.

No offence but you only look at all assists the same because the end product is a goal.

It doesn’t work like that, because Muller was a great goalscorer but Maradona had more about his game. Same for Ron and Messi.

They may have similar outputs but other things determine the better player also.

 

[Cal?]

I did say European competitions not CL. I couldn’t be bothered to go and check CL alone.

Assists may all count as the same but you can’t fool yourself to think Ronaldo is as creative as Messi. Return pass across the box is not the same as a dazzling dribble past a couple of players before laying it off for a team mate or a defence splitting pass.

No offence but you only look at all assists the same because the end product is a goal.

It doesn’t work like that, because Muller was a great goalscorer but Maradona had more about his game. Same for Ron and Messi.

They may have similar outputs but other things determine the better player also.

When was the last time either of them played any European competition but CL? You're really clutching at straws here.

So Ronaldo has more CL assists yet Messi is still more creative because some artificial system you came up with gave more points to dazzling dribbles than crosses?

 

[The holy trinity 68]

When was the last time either of them played any European competition but CL? You're really clutching at straws here.

So Ronaldo has more CL assists yet Messi is still more creative because some artificial system you came up with gave more points to dazzling dribbles than crosses?

I wasn't clutching at straws, I couldn't be bothered to find just CL assists at the time as I was busy doing other things. They have a similar assists and goal tally per game ratio though.

Also did you not listen to a thing I wrote? Just because assists all mean the same thing doesn't mean the players providing the assists were at the same quality. You can't tell me that it is just as easy for a give and go then pass across the box as it is to take on a player and then provide the assist, or to provide a great through ball. That is clutching. You class all goals the same because they have the same outcome which is to win a game, but you would be foolish to suggest that 10 tap ins would be the same quality wise as 10 30 yard screamers (that is just an example btw).

Also things like providing a pass/opportunity for the assist maker is not measured in stats and is equally as important.

Ronaldo and Messi may be very close in goals and assists but beyond that Messi is streets ahead of Ronaldo, and no one not even die hards like you can argue against that and be taken seriously.

Goals and assists aside, arguing that Ronaldo is then just as good as Messi, is like a flat earther sat in the space station telling the astronauts that the earth is flat.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

The fact is that both scored few goals per game when they were younger than later in their career. It's simple mathematics that the fewer games you play with a poorer record, the less that poorer record affects your career record.

No the fact is Messi has a better goal per game ratio over the course of their careers so far and any reason you wish up doesn't change that fact.

So Ronaldo has more CL assists yet Messi is still more creative because some artificial system you came up with gave more points to dazzling dribbles than crosses?

Are you genuinely trying to say that Ronaldo is more creative than Messi? Or on a par? Or even close? Allow me to rebuff that in a language you'll understand

Btw you talk about Messi brigade and cult but you're talking about a nebulous group of posters, who have been and gone over the years, who basically enjoy this little exercise of reasoning and logic with you and Peyroteo. But soon I'll get bored of explaining why the sky is blue to you and move on and another person will see this thread, try and convince you and then they will move on and so it continues and all of them will be members of this cult to you. Despite the fact that it's you who has been the constant, literally spending years debating (well, participating in) this subject religiously and whose very forum reputation is defined by this subject.

If we're in a cult, what the hell does that make you?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

No the fact is Messi has a better goal per game ratio over the course of their careers so far and any reason you wish up doesn't change that fact.



Are you genuinely trying to say that Ronaldo is more creative than Messi? Or on a par? Or even close? Allow me to rebuff that in a language you'll understand

Btw you talk about Messi brigade and cult but you're talking about a nebulous group of posters, who have been and gone over the years, who basically enjoy this little exercise of reasoning and logic with you and Peyroteo. But soon I'll get bored of explaining why the sky is blue to you and move on and another person will see this thread, try and convince you and then they will move on and so it continues and all of them will be members of this cult to you. Despite the fact that it's you who has been the constant, literally spending years debating (well, participating in) this subject religiously and whose very forum reputation is defined by this subject.

If we're in a cult, what the hell does that make you?

"The Donald Trump of CR7 fans"

 

[Swift Football]

I always marvel watching these two compete against one another.

Two footballing Goliaths going toe to toe. The most historic of players. Can’t wait to see them once again!

What is it with Ronaldo and his statues and cartoons? Hardly looks like him.

 

[wub1234]

Indeed, funny how the CL was the pinnacle of football when Messi and Barca used to win them quite regularly.

Suddenly, La Liga is where it's at.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/zida...e-champions-league/13jea5bnsybcg13ln6lq5beqo3

Zidane: It's harder to win La Liga than the Champions League

The Frenchman insists that the challenge of maintaining performance over a league season is more difficult than winning the European competition.

Zinedine Zidane says it is harder to win La Liga than the Champions League, as his Real Madrid side prepare to take on champions Barcelona in Sunday's Clasico.

Real have flattered to deceive in domestic football this season, and sit third, 15 points behind their eternal rivals.

Zidane, though, believes that the challenge of maintaining performance across 38 games is more difficult than lifting the Champions League.

"It's more difficult. I've always said that: it's more difficult," he said when asked about the difference between La Liga and European competition.

BTW this is isn't some big revelation. He's only repeating what is already blindingly obvious, and what I have said elsewhere in the thread. The domestic campaign is 75-80% of your season, and even then the Champions League doesn't meaningfully represent 20% of the season, as it's a virtual procession for Barcelona, Real Madrid and the other giants to get through the group stages. The Champions League comes down to a handful of games every season, whereas the league is 9 months of toil.

That's why Zidane said the above, and the best coach in the world said this:

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/guar...n-champions-league/1jtdi2sk9cmsf1b08liwrkfc9d

Guardiola: League title means more than Champions League

"If you have now 87 points, five games left, it's because we did outstanding when people said it was a big failure what happened last week," Guardiola said.

"They don't understand absolutely anything about football.

"The Champions League is seven games, you can win the Champions League but the league is every three days in the same month.

"I'm sorry but it's much more important what these guys have done the whole season."

The Champions League nowadays is quite honestly a vanity competition for teams that are bound to reach the latter stages every year. It's not even interesting. It goes on for months without any interesting or relevant matches, until finally reaching the inevitable culmination of the same clubs in the latter stages.

If it was a European Super League, a genuine league, as the name 'Champions League' suggests, and you had to play 20 meaningful matches to win it, then it would be a more valuable competition. As it stands now, there is a lot of hype and glitz that surrounds it, but it's becoming a less interesting competition every year.

It's obviously worth winning because it's the biggest European competition. But the bread and butter and the soul of a football club is always entwined with winning the league. Ask Zidane or Guardiola.

 

[Cal?]

I wasn't clutching at straws, I couldn't be bothered to find just CL assists at the time as I was busy doing other things. They have a similar assists and goal tally per game ratio though.

Also did you not listen to a thing I wrote? Just because assists all mean the same thing doesn't mean the players providing the assists were at the same quality. You can't tell me that it is just as easy for a give and go then pass across the box as it is to take on a player and then provide the assist, or to provide a great through ball. That is clutching. You class all goals the same because they have the same outcome which is to win a game, but you would be foolish to suggest that 10 tap ins would be the same quality wise as 10 30 yard screamers (that is just an example btw).

Also things like providing a pass/opportunity for the assist maker is not measured in stats and is equally as important.

Ronaldo and Messi may be very close in goals and assists but beyond that Messi is streets ahead of Ronaldo, and no one not even die hards like you can argue against that and be taken seriously.

Goals and assists aside, arguing that Ronaldo is then just as good as Messi, is like a flat earther sat in the space station telling the astronauts that the earth is flat.

Goals are goals and every goal is counted the same, assists are assists as long as they result in goals. If you can take out the defenders by making a great cross that results in a goals, that counts for as much as dribbling past said defenders and making a 1 yard pass that results in a goal. Just because dribbling past defender may be more pleasing on the eye for you, doesn't make it a "better" assist.

Ronaldo is NOT as good as Messi, he's BETTER.

No the fact is Messi has a better goal per game ratio over the course of their careers so far and any reason you wish up doesn't change that fact.

Are you genuinely trying to say that Ronaldo is more creative than Messi? Or on a par? Or even close? Allow me to rebuff that in a language you'll understand

Btw you talk about Messi brigade and cult but you're talking about a nebulous group of posters, who have been and gone over the years, who basically enjoy this little exercise of reasoning and logic with you and Peyroteo. But soon I'll get bored of explaining why the sky is blue to you and move on and another person will see this thread, try and convince you and then they will move on and so it continues and all of them will be members of this cult to you. Despite the fact that it's you who has been the constant, literally spending years debating (well, participating in) this subject religiously and whose very forum reputation is defined by this subject.

If we're in a cult, what the hell does that make you?

And I've explained the reason why Messi has a better goal per game ratio over his career, because he played fewer games when he was younger. That doesn't make him a better footballer over their careers.

I've yet to seen anyone on Ronaldo's side of the debate come up with "Ronaldo is LEVELS above" or "Anyone who disagrees is an idiot" or anything similar.

Everyone acknowledges that Messi is a GREAT player, just that we think Ronaldo is better.

Compare that to the Messi side, apparently Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and the likes are better?

That every Ballon D'or Messi won was rightfully won, yet when Ronaldo wins them it's because the entire football world (except the Messi brigade) are idiots.

 

[Cal?]

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/zida...e-champions-league/13jea5bnsybcg13ln6lq5beqo3

BTW this is isn't some big revelation. He's only repeating what is already blindingly obvious, and what I have said elsewhere in the thread. The domestic campaign is 75-80% of your season, and even then the Champions League doesn't meaningfully represent 20% of the season, as it's a virtual procession for Barcelona, Real Madrid and the other giants to get through the group stages. The Champions League comes down to a handful of games every season, whereas the league is 9 months of toil.

That's why Zidane said the above, and the best coach in the world said this:

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/guar...n-champions-league/1jtdi2sk9cmsf1b08liwrkfc9d

The Champions League nowadays is quite honestly a vanity competition for teams that are bound to reach the latter stages every year. It's not even interesting. It goes on for months without any interesting or relevant matches, until finally reaching the inevitable culmination of the same clubs in the latter stages.

If it was a European Super League, a genuine league, as the name 'Champions League' suggests, and you had to play 20 meaningful matches to win it, then it would be a more valuable competition. As it stands now, there is a lot of hype and glitz that surrounds it, but it's becoming a less interesting competition every year.

It's obviously worth winning because it's the biggest European competition. But the bread and butter and the soul of a football club is always entwined with winning the league. Ask Zidane or Guardiola.

By that logic, World Cup qualifying is more important than the Copa America, the same teams involved, one has 18 games each, the other is a handful of games.

There's a reason why teams who win the the Champions League are the ones who are remembered forever. The Real side of Di Stefano, Ajax side of Cruyff, Bayern side of Beckhenbauer. On the other hand, how many people remember the Real Madrid side of the late 80s?

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

@wub1234 lol. A bit of context would go a long ways.

> It’s harder to win La Liga? Yes, because it’s the longer competition. Doesn’t mean it’s more significant than the CL.

It’s also harder to win the EPL, likewise with both leagues having teams that are capable of winning the respective league any given year over a number of months. I bet you Zidane wouldn’t say it’s harder to win Ligue 1 as PSG or the Bundesliga as Bayern where it’s for the most part a 1-team race. It’s all respective and has to be put into context.


> Obviously Pep was going to say that . Quote is from just a couple weeks ago after his team got eliminated from the CL. If you think he’d say anything else you’re only kidding yourself. He said that out of selfishness to make up for losing to Liverpool in the bigger competition.



...like we’ve said, people downplay the CL after Ronaldo/Madrid have turned it into their playing ground. Gets repetitive seeing them win year after year but doesn’t take away from the quality of competition involved.

That’s like saying winning your league is a bigger accomplishment than winning the WC because the WC is only a fraction of the games. Clearly you’re mixing up significance with the longer competition. And again, say what you want but Ronaldo carrying Madrid round after round against Europe’s elite sides is special and more impressive than beating mid table Spanish clubs. Sure the latter is over a long course of time but the former is pure peak performance against the best of the best.

And yea, clearly you didn’t put things into context with what Pep and Zidane said so hope this helped clear things up.


Champions of Europe
>
Champions of Country

 

[MalcolmTucker]

And I've explained the reason why Messi has a better goal per game ratio over his career, because he played fewer games when he was younger. That doesn't make him a better footballer over their careers.

You don't get it. You factor in that he played fewer games but completely ignore all the negative aspects of being injured. L. Ronaldo peaked at what? 20? And the difference between him pre-injury and post injury problems is night and day. Who is to say Messi wouldn't have peaked at 20 or earlier had he not have been injured often? He was in better physical shape back then compared to the last 5 years. Do you think he developed as a better player/goalscorer while on the injury table? If he played the same amount of games as Ronaldo at 19 he might have been scoring 40+ goals a season or he might not have scored any - it's all hypothetical and the only thing you can rely on is that Messi has a higher goal per game ratio over their respective careers.

I hope you understand the point I'm making because the 'fewer games = better goal to game ratio' is a lazy argument.

 

[Zehner]

We should probably introduce the habit of breaking the legs of our 17-18 year old prospects. Apparently that helps their career stats. Who needstheir late teens to early 20's to develop anyway?

 

[wub1234]

I bet you Zidane wouldn’t say it’s harder to win Ligue 1 as PSG or the Bundesliga as Bayern where it’s for the most part a 1-team race. It’s all respective and has to be put into context.

He wasn't asked that and didn't say that. He said it's harder to win La Liga than the Champions League.

If the Champions League was a league competition consisting of the likes of Real, Barca, Atletico, Bayern, Man City, Man United, Liverpool, Juventus, PSG, etc, and everyone played each other home and away, then it would be an equally difficult, or more difficult, competition to win. As it stands now, luck plays a massive role.

You can see that in this year's final, as Liverpool have played Sevilla, Spartak Moscow, Maribor, Porto, another English team and Roma. They haven't been tested against Europe's elite at all. Whereas Real have played Spurs, Dortmund, APOEL, PSG, Juventus and Bayern Munich. Clearly Real have had the harder run to the final, yet they can lose it all now in one match.

But then they've already lost twice in the competition, whereas Barcelona lost once, virtually the only game that they've lost all season, and they're gone from the competition. That's why leagues tend to be more valued because over a longer period of games, that lasts several months, and everyone plays everyone, you get a fairer impression of who the best side really is.

In a league competition, the Real-Juventus fixtures would just count for one win each, and Real would have a minor advantage in goal difference. In the Champions League, Juventus are just immediately eliminated. The Barcelona-Roma matches would have resulted in a league in neither team having an advantage at all, in the Champions League they mean that Barcelona go home immediately.

This is why leagues are traditionally considered the best way to assess the quality of teams, and why people involved in football know that domestic leagues tend to be harder to win. That's in addition to the issue that I already mentioned, which is that the group stage of the Champions League is completely pointless, and it always comes down to a few matches between the rich clubs every year. Of course, this is also a problem with domestic football, but at least that is contested in a more valid format.

 

[wub1234]

There's a reason why teams who win the the Champions League are the ones who are remembered forever. The Real side of Di Stefano, Ajax side of Cruyff, Bayern side of Beckhenbauer. On the other hand, how many people remember the Real Madrid side of the late 80s?

I can't say because I'm not Spanish, but I would imagine the Real Madrid team of Butragueno, Camacho, Sanchis, Hugo Sanchez, Valdano, Michel, et al, that won the league five times in a row, is remembered in Spain. I'm sure Spanish Real Madrid supporters who are old enough to remember that team, which dominated Spanish football, hold it in higher esteem that the current side. It's not remembered in other countries because the games weren't on TV.

Also, remember that in the past that the European champions had been through a much tougher initiation. Firstly, unlike the Champions League, they were always domestic champions, unless they were the European Cup holders. That isn't possible today because the uneven distribution of money (partly caused by the Champions League) would make such a competition pointless. And then the European Cup was a knockout from round 1. Of course, that couldn't be allowed to continue because there was money to be made!

The situation today is that all of the elite clubs are guaranteed to be in the last eight, or last sixteen at absolute worst, pretty much every season. For example, Barcelona have been in the knockout stages of the Champions League every year since 2004. It's basically inevitable, can you imagine them not being in the knockout stages? The last time that they weren't was before the Champions League was extended, and they didn't qualify for it!

That's why the viewing figures are slumping because the early stages of the CL are interminable and pointless, and the latter stages are the same old teams year after year. It's still a good achievement to win it, I wouldn't say otherwise, but Zidane knows that a truer test of a team is to top the domestic league over 9 months of fixtures, where everyone plays each other home and away.

Even then, there are massive problems with the uneven distribution of money in domestic football, but at least every team plays each other home and away, and it doesn't come down to literally a few matches.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Let’s all take a break boys.





Feck me. Hope to see SAF up and walking soon. You have to imagine how this will be looming on Cristiano’s mind for the next little while with boss being a literal father figure to him.

Things like this make you take a step back and realize it’s just a game and bigger than that.

 

[Cal?]

You don't get it. You factor in that he played fewer games but completely ignore all the negative aspects of being injured. L. Ronaldo peaked at what? 20? And the difference between him pre-injury and post injury problems is night and day. Who is to say Messi wouldn't have peaked at 20 or earlier had he not have been injured often? He was in better physical shape back then compared to the last 5 years. Do you think he developed as a better player/goalscorer while on the injury table? If he played the same amount of games as Ronaldo at 19 he might have been scoring 40+ goals a season or he might not have scored any - it's all hypothetical and the only thing you can rely on is that Messi has a higher goal per game ratio over their respective careers.

I hope you understand the point I'm making because the 'fewer games = better goal to game ratio' is a lazy argument.

He might, but he also might not, the fact is you don't know if he'd have developed faster without the injuries.

However, it's clear the only reason he has a better career goals record than Ronaldo is that he played fewer games when his scoring record isn't as good.

I can't say because I'm not Spanish, but I would imagine the Real Madrid team of Butragueno, Camacho, Sanchis, Hugo Sanchez, Valdano, Michel, et al, that won the league five times in a row, is remembered in Spain. I'm sure Spanish Real Madrid supporters who are old enough to remember that team, which dominated Spanish football, hold it in higher esteem that the current side. It's not remembered in other countries because the games weren't on TV.

Also, remember that in the past that the European champions had been through a much tougher initiation. Firstly, unlike the Champions League, they were always domestic champions, unless they were the European Cup holders. That isn't possible today because the uneven distribution of money (partly caused by the Champions League) would make such a competition pointless. And then the European Cup was a knockout from round 1. Of course, that couldn't be allowed to continue because there was money to be made!

The situation today is that all of the elite clubs are guaranteed to be in the last eight, or last sixteen at absolute worst, pretty much every season. For example, Barcelona have been in the knockout stages of the Champions League every year since 2004. It's basically inevitable, can you imagine them not being in the knockout stages? The last time that they weren't was before the Champions League was extended, and they didn't qualify for it!

That's why the viewing figures are slumping because the early stages of the CL are interminable and pointless, and the latter stages are the same old teams year after year. It's still a good achievement to win it, I wouldn't say otherwise, but Zidane knows that a truer test of a team is to top the domestic league over 9 months of fixtures, where everyone plays each other home and away.

Even then, there are massive problems with the uneven distribution of money in domestic football, but at least every team plays each other home and away, and it doesn't come down to literally a few matches.

I hope you're not implying the old EC is harder to win than the CL.

It's not about the Spanish fans, it's about if the world holds the Di Stefano team in higher regard or the late 80s team. It's pretty clear that multi-CL winners are held in much much higher regard than multi-league winners.

Milan 89-90 are rated one of the best round, do people rate this Juve side who've won 6 or 7 in a row anywhere near that highly?

 

[wub1234]

I hope you're not implying the old EC is harder to win than the CL.

Of course it was harder to win! At least from the 60s onwards, the very early competitions before it was established were not as credible.

How old are you? Back in the 70s and 80s, there was a much more even playing field financially, and clubs from all over Europe were dangerous. If you drew a club from Sweden or the Netherlands or Romania they could beat you. That's why Celtic, Feyenoord, Ajax, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Steau Bucharest, Porto, PSV Eindhoven and Red Star Belgrade all won the European Cup, and clubs like IFK Gothenburg, Anderlecht, Rangers, Magdeburg, Dinamo Kiev, Dynamo Tblisi and Mechelen all won major European trophies. Barcelona lost in a European final to Slovan Bratislava and Real Madrid lost in a final to Aberdeen! Can you imagine that happening today?

In 1977-78, Nottingham Forest won the English league (BTW I'm not old enough to remember this! I just know about it), and drew Liverpool, the reigning European champions in the first round of the 1978-79 European Cup. Forest won 2-0 over two legs, goodbye reigning European champions! Bit tougher than today where the elite clubs hog all the best players, and can't possibly lose to smaller clubs, but just to make it even easier they all get seeded, and get to play six group games, making it almost impossible for them to get knocked out until the last 16.

This is why Porto, in 2004, were the last club outside England, Germany, Italy and Spain, the big four leagues, to win the Champions League; in fact, that final was the last one to feature teams from outside the these four divisions. The only club I can ever see doing it is PSG, and that would just be because of their oil money. You're never going to get a club from Romania or Sweden or the Netherlands, or basically any country other than the powerhouse nations, winning the Champions League today. It's not possible, such a possibility has been rendered obsolete.

Equally, there are problems with domestic football as well, but we're getting off-topic here. But maybe your view has been coloured by the ridiculous hype machine surrounding the Champions League, but it's just the same every year, only a handful of clubs can possibly win it, their path through to the latter stages has been made as smooth as possible, and there are a few interesting games at the end. Interesting only if you can bear the broadcasters, the cavalcade of corporate sponsors and UEFA hyping the sh*t out of them.

 

[Hawks2008]

Let’s all take a break boys.





Feck me. Hope to see SAF up and walking soon. You have to imagine how this will be looming on Cristiano’s mind for the next little while with boss being a literal father figure to him.

Things like this make you take a step back and realize it’s just a game and bigger than that.

He's always spoken fondly of SAF and you can see how much he means to him. Hope he channel all that to smash Liverpool for Fergie

 

[kouroux]

He's always spoken fondly of SAF and you can see how much he means to him. Hope he channel all that to smash Liverpool for Fergie

Wtf ? Those things aren't and shouldn't even related.

 

[Cal?]

Of course it was harder to win! At least from the 60s onwards, the very early competitions before it was established were not as credible.

How old are you? Back in the 70s and 80s, there was a much more even playing field financially, and clubs from all over Europe were dangerous. If you drew a club from Sweden or the Netherlands or Romania they could beat you. That's why Celtic, Feyenoord, Ajax, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Steau Bucharest, Porto, PSV Eindhoven and Red Star Belgrade all won the European Cup, and clubs like IFK Gothenburg, Anderlecht, Rangers, Magdeburg, Dinamo Kiev, Dynamo Tblisi and Mechelen all won major European trophies. Barcelona lost in a European final to Slovan Bratislava and Real Madrid lost in a final to Aberdeen! Can you imagine that happening today?

In 1977-78, Nottingham Forest won the English league (BTW I'm not old enough to remember this! I just know about it), and drew Liverpool, the reigning European champions in the first round of the 1978-79 European Cup. Forest won 2-0 over two legs, goodbye reigning European champions! Bit tougher than today where the elite clubs hog all the best players, and can't possibly lose to smaller clubs, but just to make it even easier they all get seeded, and get to play six group games, making it almost impossible for them to get knocked out until the last 16.

This is why Porto, in 2004, were the last club outside England, Germany, Italy and Spain, the big four leagues, to win the Champions League; in fact, that final was the last one to feature teams from outside the these four divisions. The only club I can ever see doing it is PSG, and that would just be because of their oil money. You're never going to get a club from Romania or Sweden or the Netherlands, or basically any country other than the powerhouse nations, winning the Champions League today. It's not possible, such a possibility has been rendered obsolete.

Equally, there are problems with domestic football as well, but we're getting off-topic here. But maybe your view has been coloured by the ridiculous hype machine surrounding the Champions League, but it's just the same every year, only a handful of clubs can possibly win it, their path through to the latter stages has been made as smooth as possible, and there are a few interesting games at the end. Interesting only if you can bear the broadcasters, the cavalcade of corporate sponsors and UEFA hyping the sh*t out of them.

That is the most ridiculous opinion I've ever seen on this site. It was harder to qualify for, but much easier to win.

You wall of text about the concentration of talent and money in the top leagues seem to better explain why it's HARDER to win nowadays. There's a reason why no one was able to retain the CL for almost 3 decades until last year, whereas the EC was retained quite often.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Arguing that Ronaldo is the better footballer over a handful of games that he has been better than Messi in the CL is ridiculous.

Ronaldo may have the better record in the CL in the last 3 years, but that does not mean he is the better footballer. Maybe better goal scorer in the CL for the last couple of years, but better footballer no way.

Iniesta scored in a European cup final and a WC final, but we would be foolish to argue that he was a better footballer than George best who never even featured at a World Cup.

Using a select few CL games to conclude that Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi is silly.

Ronaldo scoring in big games in the CL the last few years may make him a better goalscorer for them years but not a better footballer.

 

[Cal?]

Arguing that Ronaldo is the better footballer over a handful of games that he has been better than Messi in the CL is ridiculous.

Ronaldo may have the better record in the CL in the last 3 years, but that does not mean he is the better footballer. Maybe better goal scorer in the CL for the last couple of years, but better footballer no way.

Iniesta scored in a European cup final and a WC final, but we would be foolish to argue that he was a better footballer than George best who never even featured at a World Cup.

Using a select few CL games to conclude that Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi is silly.

Ronaldo scoring in big games in the CL the last few years may make him a better goalscorer for them years but not a better footballer.

That's a terrible example. As you said George Best never got the chance to play in the WC or Euro, therefore it'd be silly to compare his WC/Euro record with Iniesta.

The same cannot be said of Messi's CL record, he consistently plays for one of the favourites of the competition year in year out and his record is significantly worse than Ronaldo's

 

[MalcolmTucker]

He might, but he also might not, the fact is you don't know if he'd have developed faster without the injuries.

However, it's clear the only reason he has a better career goals record than Ronaldo is that he played fewer games when his scoring record isn't as good.

No, it's only clear in your mind because you want to believe that. The only clear fact here is that Messi has the better career goalscoring record and has been directly involved in more goals than Ronaldo via goals/assists in far, far fewer games.

 

[Cal?]

No, it's only clear in your mind because you want to believe that. The only clear fact here is that Messi has the better career goalscoring record and has been directly involved in more goals than Ronaldo via goals/assists in far, far fewer games.

Even if that's true, you may be able to argue that Messi was a better player at a younger age. That really doesn't say much about their overall career.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Even if that's true, you may be able to argue that Messi was a better player at a younger age. That really doesn't say much about their overall career.

Their overall career stats don't say much about their overall career are you taking the piss?

Messi: 757 appearances; 611 goals; 249 assists (860 goals + assists)
Ronaldo 907 appearances; 652 goals; 207 assists (859 goals + assists)

Directly involved in 1 goal more in 150 games less.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Their overall career stats don't say much about their overall career are you taking the piss?

Messi: 757 appearances; 611 goals; 249 assists (860 goals + assists)
Ronaldo 907 appearances; 652 goals; 207 assists (859 goals + assists)

Directly involved in 1 goal more in 150 games less.

Which he will then argue that Ronaldo played more games at a young age which doesn’t matter because Messi was great from the off.

He will also say that Ronaldo has had more big game moments. Which he hasn’t. Maybe in the CL the last few years but not before that. And anyway football isn’t only about the CL.

His entire argument is based around the last few CL seasons. And only the CL matters to him.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

That's a terrible example. As you said George Best never got the chance to play in the WC or Euro, therefore it'd be silly to compare his WC/Euro record with Iniesta.

The same cannot be said of Messi's CL record, he consistently plays for one of the favourites of the competition year in year out and his record is significantly worse than Ronaldo's

Okay, what about Sergio Ramos? Is he the best defender of all time because he has scored a lot of important CL games for Real? The same argument you have for Ronaldo as the best player ever.

 

[Cal?]

Their overall career stats don't say much about their overall career are you taking the piss?

Messi: 757 appearances; 611 goals; 249 assists (860 goals + assists)
Ronaldo 907 appearances; 652 goals; 207 assists (859 goals + assists)

Directly involved in 1 goal more in 150 games less.

It’s the ridiculous practice of adding goals and assists again?

 

[Cal?]

Which he will then argue that Ronaldo played more games at a young age which doesn’t matter because Messi was great from the off.

He will also say that Ronaldo has had more big game moments. Which he hasn’t. Maybe in the CL the last few years but not before that. And anyway football isn’t only about the CL.

His entire argument is based around the last few CL seasons. And only the CL matters to him.

Whereas the CL somehow doesn’t matter to your Messi followers because he keeps losing in the QF, again and again

 

[MalcolmTucker]

It’s the ridiculous practice of adding goals and assists again?

Ridiculous isn't it?

So Ronaldo has more CL assists than Messi

The point of football is to score goals

I'm only using stats because it seems like it's the only thing you understand. Sorry if conflating them together becomes ridiculous despite them being the only argument you can use to favour Ronaldo; either way Messi has 41 fewer goals and more assists in 150 fewer games. He has been more productive than Ronaldo over their whole career whether you add them together or not... How can you argue that?

 

[keezw]

Mourinho said: 'Ronaldo Nazario, the best Ronaldo ever! I never saw the same, I never saw the same.'

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Whereas the CL somehow doesn’t matter to your Messi followers because he keeps losing in the QF, again and again

The CL does matter but not as much as you make out as Messi and Barca have only went out out the QF for 3 years. But Ronaldo has only been better than Mess for 2 of them years. Ronaldo has been quite poor in this years latter stages.

So 2 years of Ron being evidently better than Messi in the CL is not a big enough case to use for Ronaldo being better than Messi. Because aside from them few CL years, Messi has been better in every competition.

It is like you just purposelly avoid/forget about the past. And it is only the now that should be taken into account.

 

[Cal?]

Ridiculous isn't it?

I'm only using stats because it seems like it's the only thing you understand. Sorry if conflating them together becomes ridiculous despite them being the only argument you can use to favour Ronaldo; either way Messi has 41 fewer goals and more assists in 150 fewer games. He has been more productive than Ronaldo over their whole career whether you add them together or not... How can you argue that?

Yes, it is ridiculous to add together as they are not the same thing. It’s like adding the number of gold coins to silver coins

So Messi is more consistent at a younger age, that does not make him the better player

 

[Cal?]

The CL does matter but not as much as you make out as Messi and Barca have only went out out the QF for 3 years. But Ronaldo has only been better than Mess for 2 of them years. Ronaldo has been quite poor in this years latter stages.

So 2 years of Ron being evidently better than Messi in the CL is not a big enough case to use for Ronaldo being better than Messi. Because aside from them few CL years, Messi has been better in every competition.

It is like you just purposelly avoid/forget about the past. And it is only the now that should be taken into account.

This year? You mean winning 3-0 away at Juve rather than losing 3-0 to Roma?

Messi also has been considerably worse in internationals despite much better team mates

 

[Cal?]

Mourinho said: 'Ronaldo Nazario, the best Ronaldo ever! I never saw the same, I never saw the same.'

Mourinho says a lot of things...

 

[Zehner]

This year? You mean winning 3-0 away at Juve rather than losing 3-0 to Roma?

Messi also has been considerably worse in internationals despite much better team mates

That's your opinion, stop presenting it as if it was a fact. In my eyes, Messi was much better internationally and also in his CL winning years. It isn't only the last and second last contact of a successful attack that contributes to victories. Messi has a creative impact even prime Ronaldo can only dream of and he has shown it both for Arentina and in the CL. I've yet to see a big stage game in which Ronaldo convinces me not only through goals but through his overall contribution.

It is kind of ironic that people try to capture creativity in some sort of metric since the concept of creativity means that it is not quantifiable. However, it speaks for itself that people like you or VancouverUtdFan still have to cherry pick their stats since even the numbers clearly speak for Messi, although his performances can't really be captured this way in contrast to Ronaldo's.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Messi also has been considerably worse in internationals despite much better team mates

 

[Pocho]

So sad how his teammates feck up almost every play he makes

 

[Cal?]

That's your opinion, stop presenting it as if it was a fact. In my eyes, Messi was much better internationally and also in his CL winning years. It isn't only the last and second last contact of a successful attack that contributes to victories. Messi has a creative impact even prime Ronaldo can only dream of and he has shown it both for Arentina and in the CL. I've yet to see a big stage game in which Ronaldo convinces me not only through goals but through his overall contribution.

It is kind of ironic that people try to capture creativity in some sort of metric since the concept of creativity means that it is not quantifiable. However, it speaks for itself that people like you or VancouverUtdFan still have to cherry pick their stats since even the numbers clearly speak for Messi, although his performances can't really be captured this way in contrast to Ronaldo's.

Clearly you’re never going to change your mind. Nothing will convince you of anything.