Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Cal? said:
That is the most ridiculous opinion I've ever seen on this site. It was harder to qualify for, but much easier to win.

You wall of text about the concentration of talent and money in the top leagues seem to better explain why it's HARDER to win nowadays. There's a reason why no one was able to retain the CL for almost 3 decades until last year, whereas the EC was retained quite often.
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I suspect you're a child and have no idea what football was like at that time. There were dozens of top quality teams who could win the major European trophies every year. If you played Red Star Begrade, it wasn't the walkover that it would be today; they were a really dangerous team, full of top internationals.

Furthermore, Real Madrid and Barcelona wouldn't even have been in the European Cup half the time, because it was limited to those who had won the league and the European Cup in the previous season. One of the reasons that it took Barcelona a long time to win the European Cup is that they rarely qualified for it because Real Madrid dominated the league. They were only in the European Cup once between 1961 and 1985 because they didn't win La Liga, and you couldn't just walk into the 'Champions' League by finishing fourth as you can today.

And if those rules existed now then Barcelona would only have been in 9 of the last 19 Champions Leagues, and Real Madrid would have been in 7 of the last 19. There wouldn't have been a single season in which they were both entered into it, although that would apply next season if Real win the CL this season. There would also have been a couple of season in which neither club was in the Champions League, as neither of them had won the CL or La Liga in the previous season. The decima wouldn't have happened, Real being in three consecutive finals wouldn't have happened, because they wouldn't even have qualified in those seasons.

Instead, they are absolutely guaranteed to be in the CL every season, it's almost unthinkable that they wouldn't qualify, and then the group stages are made as easy as possible for them, and they inevitably end up in the last 16, as Barcelona have for 15 consecutive seasons.

If you honestly, genuinely believe it's harder for the big clubs to win the CL nowadays than it was to win the European Cup then you're either (a) ignorant of the past, (b) so biased that you can't face reality, (c) being deliberately disingenuous, (d) a combination of the three.
 
Ronaldo is making this a hard debate again. Messi has done too little in the past 2 years.
 
Cal? said:
Clearly you’re never going to change your mind. Nothing will convince you of anything.
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As I said countless times before, it would take Ronaldo changing his play style and participating more again. But I agree that this won't happen. Ronaldo is useless in legs like those against Bayern when he doesn't get the service. Such players can't be the best for me. It is sad, really, because Ronaldo looked incredibly impressive around 2007-2010 and just decided to focus his game completely on scoring goals. The Cristiano that left United could have been a real competitor to Messi. He wouldn't have waited around the box for good crosses but would have demanded the ball on the wing and started things on his own if he sensed Bayern dominated his team.
If he had maintained this style and improved himself with the unbelievable determination he is known for, who knows what would have happened? But instead, he developed into a striker that waits for his team mates to pass him the ball in dangerous situations. He was an unbelievable dribbler, lightning quick and one of these few players who could destroy defenses on his own. Skills you rarely see in players and yet he abandoned them. Now he can statistically compare with Messi but his impact on games is definitely inferior.
 
This discussion is not going anywhere! It’s nuts! The only objective answer will be who ends up with most Ballon d’Ors, and at the moment it is tied 5-5.

Yada yada, I know the Ballon d’Or is not a PERFECT way of settling such a discussion, but it is basically the ONLY way.

Edit: Remarkable that Snake Piss is still among the top 20 posters in this thread!
 
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Cal? said:
The Real side of Di Stefano, Ajax side of Cruyff, Bayern side of Beckhenbauer. On the other hand, how many people remember the Real Madrid side of the late 80s?
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Di Stefano won La Liga 8 times. That late 50s era Madrid side won both in Europe and in Spain which is why they are remembered over the 80s Madrid which only won the league.
 
Cal? said:
This year? You mean winning 3-0 away at Juve rather than losing 3-0 to Roma? :lol:

Messi also has been considerably worse in internationals despite much better team mates
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You have not done a fair comparison their, the first leg vs Roma and Juve both were important for their wins. The second leg Ronaldo did nothing the same as Messi. The only difference is Real were better than Barca as a team.

And no he has not been considerably worth at internationals. He has gotten to 3 finals to Ronaldo’s 1. Which is better regardless of being in a better team. Ronaldo was averae at the Euro. Messi has a better WC when Argentina lost the final than any tournament Ronaldo has featured in for Portugal.
 
wub1234 said:
I suspect you're a child and have no idea what football was like at that time. There were dozens of top quality teams who could win the major European trophies every year. If you played Red Star Begrade, it wasn't the walkover that it would be today; they were a really dangerous team, full of top internationals.

Furthermore, Real Madrid and Barcelona wouldn't even have been in the European Cup half the time, because it was limited to those who had won the league and the European Cup in the previous season. One of the reasons that it took Barcelona a long time to win the European Cup is that they rarely qualified for it because Real Madrid dominated the league. They were only in the European Cup once between 1961 and 1985 because they didn't win La Liga, and you couldn't just walk into the 'Champions' League by finishing fourth as you can today.

And if those rules existed now then Barcelona would only have been in 9 of the last 19 Champions Leagues, and Real Madrid would have been in 7 of the last 19. There wouldn't have been a single season in which they were both entered into it, although that would apply next season if Real win the CL this season. There would also have been a couple of season in which neither club was in the Champions League, as neither of them had won the CL or La Liga in the previous season. The decima wouldn't have happened, Real being in three consecutive finals wouldn't have happened, because they wouldn't even have qualified in those seasons.

Instead, they are absolutely guaranteed to be in the CL every season, it's almost unthinkable that they wouldn't qualify, and then the group stages are made as easy as possible for them, and they inevitably end up in the last 16, as Barcelona have for 15 consecutive seasons.

If you honestly, genuinely believe it's harder for the big clubs to win the CL nowadays than it was to win the European Cup then you're either (a) ignorant of the past, (b) so biased that you can't face reality, (c) being deliberately disingenuous, (d) a combination of the three.
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Go open a new thread on this, there is NO WAY the EC is harder to win than the CL.

It’s simple, the better the sides involved in the competition, the harder it is to win.

Half your wall of text is about it being harder to qualify for...
 
Zehner said:
As I said countless times before, it would take Ronaldo changing his play style and participating more again. But I agree that this won't happen. Ronaldo is useless in legs like those against Bayern when he doesn't get the service. Such players can't be the best for me. It is sad, really, because Ronaldo looked incredibly impressive around 2007-2010 and just decided to focus his game completely on scoring goals. The Cristiano that left United could have been a real competitor to Messi. He wouldn't have waited around the box for good crosses but would have demanded the ball on the wing and started things on his own if he sensed Bayern dominated his team.
If he had maintained this style and improved himself with the unbelievable determination he is known for, who knows what would have happened? But instead, he developed into a striker that waits for his team mates to pass him the ball in dangerous situations. He was an unbelievable dribbler, lightning quick and one of these few players who could destroy defenses on his own. Skills you rarely see in players and yet he abandoned them. Now he can statistically compare with Messi but his impact on games is definitely inferior.
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There we go with your absolute surety again. *sigh*
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
You have not done a fair comparison their, the first leg vs Roma and Juve both were important for their wins. The second leg Ronaldo did nothing the same as Messi. The only difference is Real were better than Barca as a team.

And no he has not been considerably worth at internationals. He has gotten to 3 finals to Ronaldo’s 1. Which is better regardless of being in a better team. Ronaldo was averae at the Euro. Messi has a better WC when Argentina lost the final than any tournament Ronaldo has featured in for Portugal.
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Nothing being he created and slotted away the crucial penalty.
 
Cal? said:
There we go with your absolute surety again. *sigh*
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Because it is so blatantly obvious that Messi participates and contributes much, much more that suggesting the opposite is downright hilarious. You can argue that Ronaldo is a better goal scorer in big games and if that is what matters the most to you, he can be the GOAT in your eyes. I think that this is wrong and speaks for a very superficial understanding of football but it's your opinion and as long as you are consequent and don't use double standards, I accept that. But I refuse to discuss that Messi's overall contribution outclasses Ronaldo's. That's just silly.
 
Zehner said:
Because it is so blatantly obvious that Messi participates and contributes much, much more that suggesting the opposite is downright hilarious. You can argue that Ronaldo is a better goal scorer in big games and if that is what matters the most to you, he can be the GOAT in your eyes. I think that this is wrong and speaks for a very superficial understanding of football but it's your opinion and as long as you are consequent and don't use double standards, I accept that. But I refuse to discuss that Messi's overall contribution outclasses Ronaldo's. That's just silly.
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Just because Messi is more involved in games doesn’t make he contributes more.

Doing nothing is better than messing up. IMHO Messi has messed up on many occasions in the last few years
 
Cal? said:
Nothing being he created and slotted away the crucial penalty.
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Created a foul and scored a penalty that Ramos or the majority of his team would have scored. Clutching there if you think that was remarkable. Especially when you laughed off Messi scoring a hatrick last week as if it wasn't difficult to do.

Ronaldo penalty > Messi hatrick. :lol:
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Created a foul and scored a penalty that Ramos or the majority of his team would have scored. Clutching there if you think that was remarkable. Especially when you laughed off Messi scoring a hatrick last week as if it wasn't difficult to do.

Ronaldo penalty > Messi hatrick. :lol:
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CL QF >>>>> almost dead league game
 
Cal? said:
Just because Messi is more involved in games doesn’t make he contributes more.
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It literally does.

Cal? said:
Doing nothing is better than messing up. IMHO Messi has messed up on many occasions in the last few years
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That's is just another empty argument of yours. What does that even mean? Most often, you "mess up" through "doing nothing". It's not like these two are opposites to each other, they usually go hand in hand. What you are referring to may be true if you give away possession easily and your team concedes a goal due to it but this is hardly the case for any of Messi's games. Even if he has a bad game, he is still not as invisible as Ronaldo was in his last games against Bayern and Juventus.

All this nonsense just to disguise what everybody on here knows anyway. You simply like Ronaldo more and search for arguments that make your subjective preference appear as if it was based on objective facts. It doesn't even matter if it makes any sense, is contradictory of arguments you made earlier or obviously completely stupid. As long as it speaks for Ronaldo, it will do for you.
 
VancouverUtdFan said:
Too bad it wasn’t the case for Messi and Argentina..
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Or Ronaldo against Bayern in 2013. Ronaldo has missed a lot of crucial penalties in his career. He's a better penalty taker than Messi, but the point still stands.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Talk about spinning things to make Ronaldo look better. Let someone else take the penalty and the odds are they score.
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There is a reason Ronaldo takes all the penalties for Real Madrid - he's very good at them.

Messi, on the other hand, isn't good at them at all, the only reason he continues taking them is for the stats, and it's laughable some people want to give him credit for giving a few away.
 
Zehner said:
It literally does.

That's is just another empty argument of yours. What does that even mean? Most often, you "mess up" through "doing nothing". It's not like these two are opposites to each other, they usually go hand in hand. What you are referring to may be true if you give away possession easily and your team concedes a goal due to it but this is hardly the case for any of Messi's games. Even if he has a bad game, he is still not as invisible as Ronaldo was in his last games against Bayern and Juventus.

All this nonsense just to disguise what everybody on here knows anyway. You simply like Ronaldo more and search for arguments that make your subjective preference appear as if it was based on objective facts. It doesn't even matter if it makes any sense, is contradictory of arguments you made earlier or obviously completely stupid. As long as it speaks for Ronaldo, it will do for you.
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http://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2018/04/11/5acdcbcee5fdea494c8b45a3.html

The final whistle in Rome on Tuesday evening not only signified Barcelona's Champions League capitulation but also that of Lionel Messi, who lost possession 19 times, shot only two of his five efforts on target, and failed to score throughout the entire tie.

I can't be bothered to provide too many examples, but just this Roma game we've been discussing. Giving the ball away more than once every 5 minutes is very much "messing up" and a negative contribution to his team.
 
Basically Cal is trying to argue that when Ronaldo plays crap it doesn't matter because his role in the overall play of real madrid is pretty minimal so the team can play fine without him. But because Barca are so dependent on Messi for the team to do anything when he plays bad the team will also struggle... and this is 1 point to ronaldo in his eyes.
 
BarcaSpurs said:
Basically Cal is trying to argue that when Ronaldo plays crap it doesn't matter because his role in the overall play of real madrid is pretty minimal so the team can play fine without him. But because Barca are so dependent on Messi for the team to do anything when he plays bad the team will also struggle... and this is 1 point to ronaldo in his eyes.
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I wonder if you watched the game last night? It's pretty clear that Madrid absolutely rely on Cristiano, the difference between the first and second half was night and day despite Barca going down to 10.
 
BarcaSpurs said:
Basically Cal is trying to argue that when Ronaldo plays crap it doesn't matter because his role in the overall play of real madrid is pretty minimal so the team can play fine without him. But because Barca are so dependent on Messi for the team to do anything when he plays bad the team will also struggle... and this is 1 point to ronaldo in his eyes.
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For me, the mad thing about Ronaldo is how he always seems to score in big games regardless of whether he's involved or not. It's a pretty remarkable attribute for a player you have to admit. Just look at his CL record this season, that semi was the first game he hadn't scored in. And he actually had one disallowed! :lol:
 
Saw on fb

*Cristiano Ronaldo vs Leo Messi in court*
Judge: Have any of you won the
Golden ball?
Ronaldo: Yes, 5 times.
Messi: Yes, 5 times as well.
Judge: Have any of you won the
Golden Boot?
Ronaldo: Yes, 4 times.
Messi: Same here.
Judge: How many individual trophies
have you each won?
Ronaldo: 16.
Messi: 13.
Judge: Have any of you played for
another club’s first team besides your
current one?
Ronaldo: Yes! Sporting CP in Portugal
first division and Manchester United
in BPL.
Messi: No. Only Barcelona.
Judge: Have any of you won a title
with your national team?
Ronaldo: Yes! We won Portugal’s first
ever European Championship.
Messi: No.
Judge: How many goals have each of
you scored for your respective
teams?
Ronaldo: Should I count the goals
I’ve scored for Man United and
Sporting?
Judge: No. Only for Real Madrid.
Ronaldo: 436 goals in 426
appearances or 9 seasons.
Messi: 539 goals in 625 appearances
or 14 seasons.
Judge: Who has scored more hat-
tricks in La Liga?
Ronaldo: Me. 35 in La Liga.
Messi: Ronaldo has. I’ve scored 28.
Judge: Which is the most prestigious
competition in club football?
Ronaldo: Champions League.
Messi: Champions League.
Judge: Have any of you won
Champions League?
Ronaldo: Yes, 4 times in total with 2
different teams. Once with Man United
and 3 times with Madrid.
Messi: Yes, 4 times as well with
Barcelona only.
Judge: Who has scored more goals in
the CL between the two of you?
Ronaldo: I’ve scored 118 goals in the
CL.
Messi: I’ve scored 100.
Judge: Who has more assists
between the two of you in the CL?
Ronaldo: I have 39.
Messi: Ronaldo has. I have 26.
Judge: Who has scored more goals in
total in the CL finals?
Ronaldo: Me.
Messi: Ronaldo.
Judge: Which one of you have scored
more free kicks?
Ronaldo: I have.
Messi: Ronaldo has.
Judge: Most goals with weak foot?
Ronaldo: Me, I think.
Messi: (Nods in agreement).
Judge: Most goals from outside of the
box?
Ronaldo: Me.. again.
Messi: Ronaldo.
Judge: Who has scored more
headers?
Ronaldo: Is that a serious question?
Messi: ...
Judge: Who has a better penalty
conversion rate?
Ronaldo: I think I do. I’ve scored 82%
of the penalties I’ve taken.
Messi: I’ve scored 77% of the
penalties I’ve taken.
Judge: Which one of you have scored
the most goals in total during your
career?
Ronaldo: I think I have. 647 goals.
Messi: I’ve scored 603
Judge: How many football records do
each of you hold in total for both
club and country?
Ronaldo: 146
Messi: 110
Judge: Well, after analyzing all of the
facts that have been presented to me.
I can only draw one conclusion when
it comes to comparing you both as
football players. That conclusion is
that Ronaldo is the better player in
almost every category. When it comes
to goal scoring and accolades for
both club and country, Ronaldo
comes out on top. Messi, you are
without a doubt Barcelona’s best
player of all time. But certainly not
the world’s best ever. That is clearly
Ronaldo at the moment.
Messi: But I am younger than Ronaldo
and haven’t played as many matches
as him.
Judge: I understand that, but until
you surpass his goal scoring records
and win as many trophies both
individually and collectively as he
has, then Ronaldo will, according to
the statistics, be considered as the
best football player of all time. Until
then, keep pushing on and you just
might be able to achieve just as
much as Ronaldo!
 
Member 5225 said:
Saw on fb

*Cristiano Ronaldo vs Leo Messi in court*
Judge: Have any of you won the
Golden ball?
Ronaldo: Yes, 5 times.
Messi: Yes, 5 times as well.
Judge: Have any of you won the
Golden Boot?
Ronaldo: Yes, 4 times.
Messi: Same here.
Judge: How many individual trophies
have you each won?
Ronaldo: 16.
Messi: 13.
Judge: Have any of you played for
another club’s first team besides your
current one?
Ronaldo: Yes! Sporting CP in Portugal
first division and Manchester United
in BPL.
Messi: No. Only Barcelona.
Judge: Have any of you won a title
with your national team?
Ronaldo: Yes! We won Portugal’s first
ever European Championship.
Messi: No.
Judge: How many goals have each of
you scored for your respective
teams?
Ronaldo: Should I count the goals
I’ve scored for Man United and
Sporting?
Judge: No. Only for Real Madrid.
Ronaldo: 436 goals in 426
appearances or 9 seasons.
Messi: 539 goals in 625 appearances
or 14 seasons.
Judge: Who has scored more hat-
tricks in La Liga?
Ronaldo: Me. 35 in La Liga.
Messi: Ronaldo has. I’ve scored 28.
Judge: Which is the most prestigious
competition in club football?
Ronaldo: Champions League.
Messi: Champions League.
Judge: Have any of you won
Champions League?
Ronaldo: Yes, 4 times in total with 2
different teams. Once with Man United
and 3 times with Madrid.
Messi: Yes, 4 times as well with
Barcelona only.
Judge: Who has scored more goals in
the CL between the two of you?
Ronaldo: I’ve scored 118 goals in the
CL.
Messi: I’ve scored 100.
Judge: Who has more assists
between the two of you in the CL?
Ronaldo: I have 39.
Messi: Ronaldo has. I have 26.
Judge: Who has scored more goals in
total in the CL finals?
Ronaldo: Me.
Messi: Ronaldo.
Judge: Which one of you have scored
more free kicks?
Ronaldo: I have.
Messi: Ronaldo has.
Judge: Most goals with weak foot?
Ronaldo: Me, I think.
Messi: (Nods in agreement).
Judge: Most goals from outside of the
box?
Ronaldo: Me.. again.
Messi: Ronaldo.
Judge: Who has scored more
headers?
Ronaldo: Is that a serious question?
Messi: ...
Judge: Who has a better penalty
conversion rate?
Ronaldo: I think I do. I’ve scored 82%
of the penalties I’ve taken.
Messi: I’ve scored 77% of the
penalties I’ve taken.
Judge: Which one of you have scored
the most goals in total during your
career?
Ronaldo: I think I have. 647 goals.
Messi: I’ve scored 603
Judge: How many football records do
each of you hold in total for both
club and country?
Ronaldo: 146
Messi: 110
Judge: Well, after analyzing all of the
facts that have been presented to me.
I can only draw one conclusion when
it comes to comparing you both as
football players. That conclusion is
that Ronaldo is the better player in
almost every category. When it comes
to goal scoring and accolades for
both club and country, Ronaldo
comes out on top. Messi, you are
without a doubt Barcelona’s best
player of all time. But certainly not
the world’s best ever. That is clearly
Ronaldo at the moment.
Messi: But I am younger than Ronaldo
and haven’t played as many matches
as him.
Judge: I understand that, but until
you surpass his goal scoring records
and win as many trophies both
individually and collectively as he
has, then Ronaldo will, according to
the statistics, be considered as the
best football player of all time. Until
then, keep pushing on and you just
might be able to achieve just as
much as Ronaldo!
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Who was the judge? Ronaldo's mom?

That people keep reposting this cringeworthy wall of text is simply embarassing. How is it even possible that you read this and think "wow, that's good stuff!"
 
Just saw Messi has 9 more goals and 7 more assists in La Liga than Ronaldo. That's basically being directly involved in 16 more goals in the best league in the world. Are we here still pretending that only CL is important competition these days?
 
Amar__ said:
Just saw Messi has 9 more goals and 7 more assists in La Liga than Ronaldo. That's basically being directly involved in 16 more goals in the best league in the world. Are we here still pretending that only CL is important competition these days?
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Well, the CL does rank higher in prestige whether right or wrong.
 
VorZakone said:
Well, the CL does rank higher in prestige whether right or wrong.
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It does, but CL is maximum 13 games, while domestic league takes 38 games, so I don't see why player's season should be rated mostly on CL performances. Take this for an example, did we United fans ever picked our player of the season based on CL games? It was always rated on league form.
 
If Messi was dominating the CL and ronaldo the league, it would be the same argument. No problem with people who pick whatever suits their agenda.
 
Amar__ said:
Just saw Messi has 9 more goals and 7 more assists in La Liga than Ronaldo. That's basically being directly involved in 16 more goals in the best league in the world. Are we here still pretending that only CL is important competition these days?
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Messi played 9 more games in the league. He's played an absurd amount of minutes this season.

This season in all competitions Ronaldo has a goal or assist every 69 minutes. Messi has a goal or assist every 71 minutes.
 
Peyroteo said:
Messi played 9 more games in the league. He's played an absurd amount of minutes this season.

This season in all competitions Ronaldo has a goal or assist every 69 minutes. Messi has a goal or assist every 71 minutes.
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Lol you just countered your own argument. You state messi has played an absurd amount of minutes this season yet is only 2 mins of ronaldo in creating/scoring a goal.
 
Wait what?

If Messi played way more, its harder to achieve...not easier. He did not counter his own argument.
 
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I think everyone misses this thread, so, @Cal? and @Peyroteo you may have been asked this before, but who would you rather played for United next season assuming equal salaries and transfer fees?
 
Pass and Move said:
I think everyone misses this thread, so, @Cal? and @Peyroteo you may have been asked this before, but who would you rather played for United next season assuming equal salaries and transfer fees?
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If Ronaldo was at United you’d have 30 great players and 1 scapegoat. If Messi was at United you’d have 1 great player and 30 scapegoats so having Ronaldo would make it easier for the club when you eventually finish 15 points behind City ;)
 
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