Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Pink Moon]

Put it this way. He isn't getting blamed but he didn't do what his rival has been doing again and again and again for the last 3-4 years.

Scoring goals? It's his goals in the previous round that got them here.

The same argument can be said that Barca as a team aren't doing what their rivals have been doing again and again and again.

Could any of the Ronaldo stans honestly say that they could see RM throwing away a 3 goal lead?

If you'd asked me before tonight which team of the two would be most likely to do that I would've said Barca and it isn't even close. Everyone would have.

 

[SportingCP96]

Seriously we should start asking some of them to name Messi's flaws/weaknesses. You'll probably get nothing and that's when you know there's no point arguing

Messi to them always has an excuse for everything. Ronaldo would be shunned. This debate is a wrap for me. Intangibles like this are what make a player not just talent.

 

[Pink Moon]

Same way Messi early success should be discounted for having a Goat midfield?

I'm not discounting Ronaldo though. In fact, I literally didn't even mention him in the post you quoted.

 

[shamans]

Scoring goals? It's his goals in the previous round that got them here.

The same argument can be said that Barca as a team aren't doing what their rivals have been doing again and again and again.

Could any of the Ronaldo stans honestly say that they could see RM throwing away a 3 goal lead?

If you'd asked me before tonight which team of the two would be most likely to do that I would've said Barca and it isn't even close. Everyone would have.

So then can we also say Madrid as a team weren't doing what Barca was doing again and again in the Xavi/Iniesta era and also say "so sad Ronalodo gets shat on due to his team"?

Also, results speak louder. 3peat CL would be no fluke and it certainly stands for something.

 

[MJJ]

I'm not discounting Ronaldo though. In fact, I literally didn't even mention him in the post you quoted.

Neither did I? I am talking about Messi playing in an all conquering Spanish side.

 

[SportingCP96]

Same way Messi early success should be discounted for having a Goat midfield?

He is a joker and don't know what he is saying at all. Him among with. others just basically said Messi was good because of one of the greatest Barca teams of all time. Probably explains why he never left Barca.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

My man Messi folding in the biggest of games...

 

[The holy trinity 68]

There are players more similar to Ronaldo than there are to Messi. However, RM has not been good this season with a Ronaldo out of form. Previously, Ronaldo has not really been much out of form, and he really has dragged them through two CL campaings now. That certainly proves his worth to the team. Suggesting that Ronaldo is not vital to RM's success is just as naive as saying Messi isn't to Barcelona.

I didn’t mean he isn’t vital, just that they have a very very good team al over the pitch. Ramos, Marcelo, Modric, Kroos are the best in the world in their positions in my opinion. Bale, Benzema, Isco, James are all great.

They have really missed Pepe this season. Then James and Morata offered great depth to the squad which they haven’t had this season.

Ronaldo being poor before Christmas was a factor, but losing some great players has also been an issue.

 

[Gesalt]

Messi hasn't had a good spell vs Real Madrid ?

No good performance after Bayern ?

What are people smoking here?

 

[cyberman]

His movement off the ball isn't top class.

That seems to be the problem.
People saying he'll be world class for a few years when he drops deeper are ignoring the incredible toll that will put their midfield under.
He will still coast v lesser sides and dominate but Barcas in game dominance has dropped a few levels.
The Barca thread is proof of that.
Its ok though, Griezmann is the answer ffs

 

[SportingCP96]

My man Messi folding in the biggest of games...

Always seems to

 

[Cal?]

If Salah wins the CL with Liverpool (hopefully not) then he probably deserves it?

I just can't see one of them not winning it.

Neither Messi or Ronaldo are playing at the level they played in 2010 or 2014. Still, in 2010 even Forlan finished above Ronaldo and in 2014 Neuer was 0.02% away from finishing above Messi. It's the journalists vote now, the WC will be the main decider. If Messi or Neymar have a great tournament and Ronaldo doesn't, then Ronaldo won't be the favourite.

Yes, I'm not saying they'll finish top 2, but one of them is still very likely to win it. Ronaldo won it by a landslide in 2014.

 

[TsuWave]

Ronaldo is goat

 

[Pink Moon]

Neither did I? I am talking about Messi playing in an all conquering Spanish side.

Clearly you were implying my praise of RM's midfield and defence was discounting Ronaldo. It wasn't.

They were only all conquering because of Messi. Great team without him? Yes. All conquering/discussed as the best club side ever without him? Not even close.

 

[SportingCP96]

Ronaldo is goat

Anyone who knows anything about football could have told you that.

 

[Pink Moon]

So then can we also say Madrid as a team weren't doing what Barca was doing again and again in the Xavi/Iniesta era and also say "so sad Ronalodo gets shat on due to his team"?

Also, results speak louder. 3peat CL would be no fluke and it certainly stands for something.

Who shits on Ronaldo because of his team? Those are idiots just like the folk that did it to Messi in the Pep days.

3peat CL is an achievement for the entire team. So do we then say Sergio Ramos is the GOAT defender? Better than Baresi and Maldini? Kroos and Modric are the best midfield partnership of all time? Marcelo is the GOAT full back? Where do we stop?

 

[MJJ]

He is a joker and don't know what he is saying at all. Him among with. others just basically said Messi was good because of one of the greatest Barca teams of all time. Probably explains why he never left Barca.

Well no, he would have dominated for any side.

Clearly you were implying my praise of RM's midfield and defence was discounting Ronaldo. It wasn't.

They were only all conquering because of Messi. Great team without him? Yes. All conquering/discussed as the best club side ever without him? Not even close.

I wasn't implying anything regarding Ronaldo.

The side won back to back euros and a world cup, they would have done fine without Messi imo. But you can't give Messi a free pass because his current side is bad while not discounting his earlier performances by playing in a Goat club side.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Messi imho is the GOAT footballer in terms of talent. Ronaldo is the GOAT scorer & GOAT big game player.

However, it’s so obvious how much Messi leeched off those alltime great Barca sides in the past. That’s the one thing Ronaldo will always have over him...CR7 doesn’t rely on any one thing for his success. He is his own success and isn’t dependent on others whereas Messi has always been spoon-fed with such great teams/players. Now they’re saying he doesn’t have such a great team as before? Boo-hoo, they’re still 10+ points clear in La Liga. Just look at their careers internationally as well, Messi unable to be nearly as effective as is he with club squad not having that system do the work for him. #1 ranked Argentina and he’s folded and even retired, calling it quits at times. Ronaldo? He just keeps doing his thing like always.

...unfortunate Messi didn’t have Neymar to bail him out with a hat trick this time around

 

[KirkDuyt]

Expect another 10% swing after that

 

[SportingCP96]

Who shits on Ronaldo because of his team? Those are idiots just like the folk that did it to Messi in the Pep days.

3peat CL is an achievement for the entire team. So do we then say Sergio Ramos is the GOAT defender? Better than Baresi and Maldini? Kroos and Modric are the best midfield partnership of all time? Marcelo is the GOAT full back? Where do we stop?

The difference is take those players out of the team and put another good defender or midfielder in their as long as they have Ronaldo they will win it. BUT keep all those players in the lineup and take out Ronaldo. They would not make the final. That right their is the DIFFERENCE.

 

[Ban]

Messi imho is the GOAT footballer & Ronaldo is the GOAT scorer.

However, it’s so obvious how much Messi leeched off those alltime great Barca sides in the past. That’s the one thing Ronaldo will always have over him...CR7 doesn’t rely on any one thing for his success. He is his own success and isn’t dependent on others whereas Messi has always been spoon-fed with such great teams/players. Now they’re saying he doesn’t have such a great team as before? Boo-hoo, they’re still 10+ points clear in La Liga. Just look at their careers internationally as well, Messi unable to be nearly as effective as is he with club squad not having that system do the work for him. #1 ranked Argentina and he’s folded and even retired, calling it quits at times. Ronaldo? He just keeps doing his thing like always.

...unfortunate Messi didn’t have Neymar to bail him out with a hat trick this time around

Messi has been spoon-fed with great team and players unlike Ronaldo?
I guess this Madrid team Ronaldo is in is crap?

 

[2mufc0]

They have both benefitted from playing in world class teams, don't know why you guys are arguing like little kids over it.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I just can't see one of them not winning it

Oh yeah, same for me. I mean do you think Ron deserves it for his incredible run after Christmas? Or does Messi deserve it for dragging Barca to the title? Or will Salah deserve it for being the main factor in Liverpool winning the CL if they manage to win it?

Obv Ron and Messi will finish 1 & 2 but would be harsh on Salah if the above happens.

 

[SportingCP96]

Messi imho is the GOAT footballer in terms of talent. Ronaldo is the GOAT scorer & GOAT big game player.

However, it’s so obvious how much Messi leeched off those alltime great Barca sides in the past. That’s the one thing Ronaldo will always have over him...CR7 doesn’t rely on any one thing for his success. He is his own success and isn’t dependent on others whereas Messi has always been spoon-fed with such great teams/players. Now they’re saying he doesn’t have such a great team as before? Boo-hoo, they’re still 10+ points clear in La Liga. Just look at their careers internationally as well, Messi unable to be nearly as effective as is he with club squad not having that system do the work for him. #1 ranked Argentina and he’s folded and even retired, calling it quits at times. Ronaldo? He just keeps doing his thing like always.

...unfortunate Messi didn’t have Neymar to bail him out with a hat trick this time around

Sir Alex said it best. PUT Ronaldo in Doncaster and he would still bang in 40. Put Messi there and you cant be so sure.

 

[Kush]

Messi became a club in this thread

It's good at least that people who don't recognise him as greatest at least acknowledge that Barcelona is about Everton level without him.

Likes of Ter Stegen, Pique, Umtiti, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, Suarez, Coutinho, Dembele are Everton level? Give your head a wobble.

This revisionism about Barcelona being mediocre and Real being unconquerable behemoths is hilarious. Couple of months back people were predicting Real were going to get embarrassed by PSG remember? Their best players were over 30 and Ronaldo was declining. Now they’ve swatted aside PSG and Juve with utmost ease tune has changed again. Barca are 15 points clear in Real and 10 of nearest competitor. That doesn’t happen if the gulf between them is so huge.

Their quality is comparable and the only difference as to why they haven’t been able to do as well as Real in the CL is because their best player in Messi hasn’t been as decisive in KO games compared to Ronaldo who’s completely owned the best defences and goalkeepers at the same stages.

 

[SportingCP96]

They have both benefitted from playing in world class teams, don't know why you guys are arguing like little kids over it.

Those teams have benefitted even more from them tbf.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Who shits on Ronaldo because of his team? Those are idiots just like the folk that did it to Messi in the Pep days.

3peat CL is an achievement for the entire team. So do we then say Sergio Ramos is the GOAT defender? Better than Baresi and Maldini? Kroos and Modric are the best midfield partnership of all time? Marcelo is the GOAT full back? Where do we stop?

Exactly, because Ramos has scored some very crucial clutch goals for them. He doesn’t score vs Athletico a few years back, and they go out. Thus Ronaldo doesn’t have that extra CL, do we then use that against Ronaldo?

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Messi has been spoon-fed with great team and players unlike Ronaldo?
I guess this Madrid team Ronaldo is in is crap?

Go’s both ways, when Madrid was no where near the quality of those Barca sides.

One constant is Ronaldo still pulled his weight with those poorer Madrid teams or better ones like the current day. Messi? “Poorer” current day side compared to previous teams and it’s somehow an excuse for his failures to show up when it matters...

 

[Ishdalar]

Messi's the only one who has a bunch of people claiming he has the ability to make the teammates around him better though... so shouldn't he be judged harshly when those teammates don't perform? Or does that ability only work when they play well?

I agree with you btw (not on the mediocre part, Barcelona are far from mediocre), just making a point.

Have you watched the whole game today?

 

[Revan]

Portugal winning Euros at the same season when Ronaldo leaded Madrid to became the first team to defend UCL reopened the debate for me. Now it looks that Ronaldo is a favourite to win an another Balloon D'Or which will surpass Messi in that aspect.

The debate is definitely open, only time will tell which one's legacy will be regarded the best.

 

[Pink Moon]

The difference is take those players out of the team and put another good defender or midfielder in their as long as they have Ronaldo they will win it. BUT keep all those players in the lineup and take out Ronaldo. They would not make the final. That right their is the DIFFERENCE.

That's absolute NONSENSE.

As much as Ronado is clearly the best player at the club you can't take out guys like Marcelo, Kroos, Modric, Ramos and expect the results to remain the same.

You're doing a disservice to just how good those guys really are. Marcelo is probably the best LB I've ever seen. But yeah, take him out for Danny Rose and you won't even notice.

Edit: So what's your thoughts on the final v Atletico a few years back where Ronaldo was anonymous in the final and it was Ramos who saved their asses?

 

[SportingCP96]

Exactly, because Ramos has scored some very crucial clutch goals for them. He doesn’t score vs Athletico a few years back, and they go out. Thus Ronaldo doesn’t have that extra CL, do we then use that against Ronaldo?

Like I said take those players out the lineup and put other good players their they probably still would have won it because of one name RONALDO. Take Ronaldo out of that side and keep the rest of the players and they make the Semis at Best.

 

[Cal?]

Oh yeah, same for me. I mean do you think Ron deserves it for his incredible run after Christmas? Or does Messi deserve it for dragging Barca to the title? Or will Salah deserve it for being the main factor in Liverpool winning the CL if they manage to win it?

Obv Ron and Messi will finish 1 & 2 but would be harsh on Salah if the above happens.

The Ballon D'or is supposed to be based on the calendar year, so Ronaldo's lackluster last few months of 2017 is not supposed to matter, at all.

For 2018, so far Ronaldo is quite far ahead of the rest, especially with Neymar and Messi both dropping out of the CL, but of course there's still a lot of football to be played, and a great WC could turn it round for any of them.

If Salah made as big a contribution to Liverpool winning the CL as Ronaldo did last year, it would be harsh.

 

[Ban]

Go’s both ways, when Madrid was no where near the quality of those Barca sides.

One constant is Ronaldo still pulled his weight with those poorer Madrid teams or better ones like the current day. Messi? “Poorer” current day side compared to previous teams and it’s somehow an excuse for his failures to show up when it matters...

I'm talking about Madrid side which one 3 CLs in 4 years and that team certainly isn't far away from those Barca sides. So yeah it works both ways.

 

[Peyroteo]

Have you watched the whole game today?

No, just after the 2-0. Did I make any comment about the game?

 

[SportingCP96]

That's absolute NONSENSE.

As much as Ronado is clearly the best player at the club you can't take out guys like Marcelo, Kroos, Modric, Ramos and expect the results to remain the same.

You're doing a disservice to just how good those guys really are. Marcelo is probably the best LB I've ever seen. But yeah, take him out for Danny Rose and you won't even notice.

I never said take him out for Danny Rose im saying Put Ronaldo in lets say Manchester City or another high quality team they have a better chance of making the Final then without him. Im not discrediting those married players.

 

[Zehner]

Messi's the only one who has a bunch of people claiming he has the ability to make the teammates around him better though... so shouldn't he be judged harshly when those teammates don't perform? Or does that ability only work when they play well?

I agree with you btw (not on the mediocre part, Barcelona are far from mediocre), just making a point.

I partly agree. On his day, he would definitely be able to carry Barcelona through this match alone. Obviously, this wasn't the case and he showed a dull performance. But as you said with Argentina, his teams currently are far too reliant on him. Strokes of genius occur erraticly, you cannot plan with them, even with someone like Messi who has them in almost every match. I think that individual class should never be the plan A. Guardiola's Barcelona was so brillant because of all the synergies and the collective so that it was easy for players to shine individually. Even if noone had an exceptional performance they were quite good. Now it seems like many players like Busquets, Rakitic, Pique, Semedo, Suarez, even Iniesta look worse than they actually are because they do not have this basic systematic framework and shared philosophy in which they functioned so well. Occasionally, their genius shines through and you see nice passing phases but these seem to be remnants of the past and no intended automatisms. Instead, they pass the ball to Messi and expect him to create. But you simply cannot expect him to step up in every game. A club like Barcelona should be able to win these matches even without him and this is hardly the case, currently. They are a mediocre team without him, both as a collective as well as on an individual basis. Compare this team head to head to Real, PSG, Bayern or City and they look average. And those clubs actually have an idea of how to play as a team instead of relying on the genius of a man.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Likes of Ter Stegen, Pique, Umtiti, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, Suarez, Coutinho, Dembele are Everton level? Give your head a wobble.

This revisionism about Barcelona being mediocre and Real being unconquerable behemoths is hilarious. Couple of months back people were predicting Real were going to get embarrassed by PSG remember? Their best players were over 30 and Ronaldo was declining. Now they’ve swatted aside PSG and Juve with utmost ease tune has changed again. Barca are 15 points clear in Real and 10 of nearest competitor. That doesn’t happen if the gulf between them is so huge.

Their quality is comparable and the only difference as to why they haven’t been able to do as well as Real in the CL is because their best player in Messi hasn’t been as decisive in KO games compared to Ronaldo who’s completely owned the best defences and goalkeepers at the same stages.

The Barca side 10+ points clear in the league and 15 ahead of Real Madrid.

Yep, this poor Barca side.




The excuses

 

[Pink Moon]

Like I said take those players out the lineup and put other good players their they probably still would have won it because of one name RONALDO.

But that literally makes no sense because RONALDO played in that game and they didn't win it because of him. He was anonymous. They won it because of Ramos.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The Barca side 10+ points clear in the league and 15 ahead of Real Madrid.

Yep, this poor Barca side.




The excuses

They just lost a 4-1 agg lead vs Roma.

They're not that good.

Take Messi and Ronaldo out.

Which side is better? No one will say Barcelona.