Cal?'s gonna pass Ronaldo's goal tally any day now.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Cal?'s gonna pass Ronaldo's goal tally any day now.
why do we even have league games? Or group stages in the cl? After all players can sleep through in and rise for a couple of games every season to be called the best player even though I don’t agree that Ronaldo was the best player even that way, who cares about the players who work hard throughout the season and help their team win league titles andhelp them through the group stages of the cl, after all who cares about the foundation of a building, just build the bloody damn thing on the the bloody road so that everyone can see and praise you for it
only indicates that there’s 177 pages worth of people thinking Ronaldo is better than Messi are taking out of their arse
The only reason that Messi is still in the debate is because of the league games and CL group stage.
If you only look at CL knockout games and international competitive games, there really isn't much contest AT ALL.
I'm not sure how this is even a discussion. I have got 5 different United tops with Ronaldo's name on then; I, like most United fans during the late naughties, sang Viva Ronaldo every chance we got, and loved him while he was here, but he is not Messi.
There's a line between fanhood and delusion, and I genuinely can't imagine how anyone who understands football can possibly think that Cristiano is a better footballer than Leo Messi. Perhaps accomplishments might be another discussion, and it's yet to be seen who will retire as the more accomplished. But one is clearly a better footballer than the other.
Messi might be the greatest footballer ever. There's not shame in any of our favourites being behind him on an all-time list, and it's hard to do anything but cringe when I read some of the fan-boy myopic drivel in this thread. Although, a 71% vote on Manchester United forum pretty much settles is.
There's a line between fanhood and delusion, and I genuinely can't imagine how anyone who understands football can possibly think that Cristiano is a better footballer than Leo Messi. Perhaps accomplishments might be another discussion, and it's yet to be seen who will retire as the more accomplished. But one is clearly a better footballer than the other.
Messi might be the greatest footballer ever. There's not shame in any of our favourites being behind him on an all-time list, and it's hard to do anything but cringe when I read some of the fan-boy myopic drivel in this thread. Although, a 71% vote on Manchester United forum pretty much settles is.
Lol it’s cute that you really believe that, I remember the time when Messi destroyed your hero single handed in the cl knockout games, Ronaldo could only shy away, he’s just not the man for the occasion, rather a man to be given the occasion by his teammates, you’d argue about last season but I’m yet to be impressed that it was anywhere as good as what Messi has done in the past, granted I think he’s one of the greats but your pointless arguments really destroys his reputation among the masses even further. you could fluke a cl but you could never fluke a league title, 2 titles since 2009, well come on , that’s just awful, not a sign of a team with the goat. Plus, they’ve only won the cl and the league once in the same season, that’s liverpool standards man, fluking cls ofc like Liverpool in 2005.f
Peyroteo, you just said that Messi has only had 1 game in the knockout stages in the last 3 Years better than Ronaldos against Bayern last year, and that was Messi against Chelsea s few weeks ago.
Are you seriously telling this forum that Ronaldo against Bayern last year was better than Messi against Bayern at the Camp Nou in May 2015? If you are, then I’m done with this topic. That Messi performance goes down in history as one of the greatest. That sums your argument up. Because Ronaldo scored a hat trick and Messi scored two he was better? What performance will stay in people’s memories longer, or had ex footballers frothing at the mouth in disbelief? It was Messi’s, not Ronaldos. I’m done.
Are you seriously telling this forum that Ronaldo against Bayern last year was better than Messi against Bayern at the Camp Nou in May 2015? If you are, then I’m done with this topic. That Messi performance goes down in history as one of the greatest. That sums your argument up. Because Ronaldo scored a hat trick and Messi scored two he was better? What performance will stay in people’s memories longer, or had ex footballers frothing at the mouth in disbelief? It was Messi’s, not Ronaldos. I’m done.
That Bayern game was 3 years ago already. It wasn't counting that game.
Ronaldo scored an hattrick but Marcelo was the best player on the team that day. Saying that Ronaldo game was just a below average performance for Messi is the only thing that's ridiculous here so you should have been done with the thread after reading that.
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Are you arguing that Messi is as good in the CL or are you arguing Ronaldo is not as consistent in the league?
I have said many times that Messi has more consistency in La Liga (in fact the very post you quoted was about that)
As for the CL being easier to fluke. No team ever has managers to retain the CL. The so called bestest team ever (St Pep’s Barca) failed, the MSN Barca failed...
Fact check. You said in the last three years regarding Messi, the Bayern game was in the last three years. You can’t keep changing the goalposts. Furthermore, Messi's performance away to Arsenal a year later was also imperious (best player in the pitch by a country mile in addition to his 2 goals). That performance was also better than Ronaldo's against Bayern.
Also, I didn’t say Ronaldo's performance was below par for Messi. You must be getting me confused with another poster.
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Your forgetting Messi's game against City. He didnt even score that game. And it was still one of the best performances ive ever seen. Completely ran the game from start to finish. Neville uttered something similar. He said that ive rarely been to a place like what Messi took me to against city.
He was also the best player on the pitch against Juventus in the final. But according to some on here he doesn't have many good knockout performances.
I believe that Messi had overall better performances in the knock out stages of the CL as well as in international finals and at other big games such as the clasicos. I think that Messi's performances cannot be captured in goal statistics. With Cristiano it's a different story since his game evolves arounf them.
Moreover, I think that the thesis that Ronaldo is the better CL player can only be stressed if you reduce better performances completely down to goal output (which clearly puts Messi in a disadvantage and implies an agenda). You can do that but you oversimplify football with it since it is much more complex than that. There were games in which Ronaldo scored three goals and wasn't even the best player of his team. The reason for that is that the player who scores the goal simply had the last ball contact in a very long chain of actions/plays. And his finish is not necessarily the play that contributed the most to it. This is where quantitative analyses in football come to their end and also the reason why people say you should simply watch Messi play. He turns non-dangerous situations into dangerous ones in a manner only he is capable of. Cristiano isn't even close in this discipline.
And last but not least, international tournaments and especially the CL may be the biggest stages but are probably the least suited platform for judging a players individuel performance because they are so dependant on collective success. If your team struggles in the league, you at least get to play every game. But if it struggles in the CL, you won't even get that opportunity.
Ahh, debating with you is just pointless. I said his goals aside his performances would be sub-average for Messi-standards and this is true. You were arguing that he still contributes to the game and I simply pointed out that this is not the case. At least not in the way you pretend he does. And you seriously allege other people of making up arguments and then arguing against it? Again, you do the very thing you criticize the so-called Messi fans of.
So basically you're saying you believe what you see and refuse to substantiate your view with anything?
CL record, Barca v Real
16/17 QF exit - won
15/16 QF exit - won
14/15 won - SF exit
13/14 QF exit - won
12/13 SF exit - SF exit
11/12 SF exit - SF exit
10/11 won - SF exit
09/10 SF exit - R16 exit
Cristiano has been better than Messi in the CL knockout stage not only because he scores (a lot) more, but he also takes his team further on most occasions. Barca have exited in the QF stage 3 of the last 4 seasons and you think Messi should not take any responsibility for that?
International tournaments and the latter CL games are the best opportunity to judge players, because they are the most important games and the best players perform at the key moments.
Football is a game of 11 vs 11. You shouldnt take team efforts and trophies as evidence of individual quality. If you would look at all games Ronaldo ever played and all games Messi ever played, there would be maybe a handfull games that you could give to Ronaldo. Messi is the better player, therefor the competition he plays in doesnt matter. He is better in the League, in Cups and of course in the Champions League. In the case of National teams i give both a pass because there are both often overplayed and/or not fully fit.
Ronaldo is a box specialist, you need to be far more than that to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Messi
But he didn’t score hence that doesn’t count. I really refuse to trust these people analysis on anything football related after seeing how they look at the game overall.
The fact that they failed to retain it actually proves that it is easy to fluke.. just like any tournament where one mistale by the linesman or one mistake by one player can cost you everything. You can fail to win the CL even if you are the best team by a country mile and you win every single game, except the last one.
I don't know, most likely not as high because the WC was the only time most people got too see him actually play. It wasn't like it is today where you can watch every single game from all the best leagues in the world on tv. Back in the 80's they showed one PL game a week here in Sweden for example so it's not a fair question.
Anyway, my point is that all the guys I mentioned (we can exclude Maradona if you like) were all considered to be the best because they were better at their respective sport than everyone else throughout their careers, not because they were better in certain games at certain times. (I feel like I've made that point more than one time too many so I'll give it a rest now..)
Still comparing the GOAT with a great scorer? Nonsense.
There is no doubt for me that Messi is and always will be by miles the better player. I don't even have to explain it - it is just the feeling you are left with when watching him play. He makes everything looks so easy, so effortless. Yes, Ronaldo is a great goalscorer and we can all be very happy to live in his era but he doesn't look different than any other top form player. The only difference is his consistency which is not a small thing at all, don't get me wrong! However, the fact that Ronaldo is obsessed with his statistics says all. He is so focused in getting the right numbers that I doubt he would ever sacrifice his statistics for a better team performance for example. I remember Carlo Ancelotti mentioning that when he was in Real and had to discuss with Ronaldo his role in the team they sat together and work it out that way so it doesn't affect Ronaldo's statistics. This season Valverde admitted that at the start of the season he and Messi had discussed to move Messi a bit behind the strikers for a better team performance. Valverde claimed how impressed he was of the fact that Messi didn't care about his goals and was ready to sacrifice this so the team can benefit. We all see how it goes this year with Barca winning La Liga with no efforts. This sums up all - Ronaldo will be always focused on his statistics as the only way being recognized at the same league with Messi, while Messi doesn't need these numbers. He is just ready to do everything for his team to win.
Comparing Ronaldo to Messi directly is like comparing Pele to Maldini and saying that Maldini is the inferior player.
I bet Pele couldn't do what Maldini did at Center Back or Left Back.
Ronaldo's best position is as a Wide Forward. Messi's best position is as a Central Attacking Midfielder or Support Striker.
Ronaldo should be compared to Neymar, Robben, Ribery, Salah, Hazard, Bale, etc. while Messi should be compared to James, Ozil, Mata, Muller, etc.
This is why I find the title of GOAT to be foolish.
You can't have individual best players, you can only have tiers of players.
For me:
Tier 1 (attacking): Messi, Maradona, Pele, C Ronaldo
I bet Pele couldn't do what Maldini did at Center Back or Left Back.
Ronaldo's best position is as a Wide Forward. Messi's best position is as a Central Attacking Midfielder or Support Striker.
Ronaldo should be compared to Neymar, Robben, Ribery, Salah, Hazard, Bale, etc. while Messi should be compared to James, Ozil, Mata, Muller, etc.
This is why I find the title of GOAT to be foolish.
You can't have individual best players, you can only have tiers of players.
For me:
Tier 1 (attacking): Messi, Maradona, Pele, C Ronaldo
Again?
If you think that just one player can turn that % by goalscoring alone, you know jack about football
It is not just about output but output matters. Obviously.
Just an ok play and positional awarenessJust. If other players could do those ok plays more often, then they might have won more than they did. Is winning a CL tie by scoring the Puskas a good enough example or was that an ok play too?
That's your best call, a screamer 9 years ago?. You're just giving me enough reason in my point, I'm not comparing Ronaldo to Dado Prso's goals, I'm comparing his goals to the ones Leo scores multiple times, that's the bar we're setting in this debate.
If other players could do the same, they wouldn't be inferior to Cristiano Ronaldo, I'm not the one that's downplaying one player here, the things he does, he's probably the best at, that doesn't mean his arsenal as a player is better suited than Leo's if you throw both of them in dysfunctional teams.
If you still believe this in 2018, you haven't watched Barcelona since our last treble season, nevermind Argentina.
Ronaldo used to be a winger that scored like a striker, nowadays, Messi is a midfielder that scores like a striker, if you don't believe it, watch this, not because of skills or anything, just to see where he starts a lot of plays.
Not only it's half assed to call him a "forward" in neutral terms, it's unfair to compare to him as a forward when you put him against Ronaldo, Leo usually plays 20 meters deeper than Cris, and even worse when the team is having a bad time, as he just keeps falling deeper and deeper to help bring the ball up.
The fact that Leo is still scoring at top rate is a plus to what he does on the field as a number 10, not the main reason of why he's having a great season, the day you guys understand that will be the day you might start noticing why we think there's no discussion in this debate.
Again, if you're going to look at it with recency bias, and ignoring how superior this Real Madrid team has looked against others in UCL (not just Ronaldo), you might have a point, but those are two big "ifs".
He wasn't, no one is on fire every decissive leg, where was Ronaldo in both finals vs Atletico? In the Atletico QF and Juve SF back in '15?
Ah yes, he scored a peno against Juve and pulled this beauty
Face saved, moving meter and a half to score on the line is something only reserved to the GOAT throne.
And the 2011 leg, seriously, you're going with the Pepe excuse?
, surely the ref was the one telling Real Madrid players to not stop him on this runBad comparison dude. Messi can match Ronaldo in terms of goal scoring and has set the record for most goals in a calendar year. Messi is the one capable of things Cristiano could only dream of
Now, as a joke, let's compare Rivaldo and Morientes
CL record, Barca/Milan v Real/Monaco
97/98 Group Stage - Won
98/99 Group Stage - QF
99/00 SF - Won
00/01 Group Stage- SF
01/02 SF - Won
02/03 Won - QF
03/04 Waived - Final
Fun facts:
Rivaldo won his only UCL in his worse European season ever with Milan, where he didn't play a single minute in the final, Morientes has three titles.
Morientes scored 1 goal in 4 UCL Finals played, Rivaldo 0 in... 0.
Both players were awarded one UCL Top Scorer.
Rivaldo scored 27 goals in 73 games (0.37), Morientes 30 in 88 games (0.34).
Now, kill the world of football, and tell us that Fernando Morientes is in the same galaxy as a player as Rivaldo, so we can get over with this joke as quick as possible.
just curious are recent season more valuable when comparing alltime standing of player.
I treat all seasons equally, maybe that's just me
I treat all seasons equally, maybe that's just me
I understand your frustration at the myriad of logical fallacies created by some Ronaldo fans here, but don’t let it get to you (apologies, but there’s a palpable sense of annoyance in your postings) - it’s not worth it.
Watch this video and hark at how all these Ronaldo and football experts will now disparage Gary Lineker’s knowledge on football (gotta love Wrighty as well!):
Back come the Messi brigade who are so sure of themselves. You lot are on a row, Messi's failure to step up in the CL proves it's easy to fluke. Another example of the Messi brigade, your mind is already made up of the future regardless of what happens, what if Messi suffered a major injury tomorrow and Ronaldo obliterates the WC? That wouldn't change your mind, you're already stuck with what you believe.
It's just a like a cult.
Again, you fail to appreciate the timing and run to be in that position at the right time, if it was so easy to just stand there, I wonder why no one matches his scoring record.He wasn't, no one is on fire every decissive leg, where was Ronaldo in both finals vs Atletico? In the Atletico QF and Juve SF back in '15?
Ah yes, he scored a peno against Juve and pulled this beauty
Face saved, moving meter and a half to score on the line is something only reserved to the GOAT throne.
And the 2011 leg, seriously, you're going with the Pepe excuse?
The sending off of Pepe ruined Real's shape, surely that's not hard to understand.
Why not just go with David May vs the world?
The point is that Ronaldo and Messi are clearly the KEY player for their respective teams, something which only idiots will deny. Was Morientes a key player for Real Madrid?
Great, use a video from the Barca Treble season to prove your point.
@Cal?
Are there any examples of any professional players/managers who refer to ronaldo as the best player in history?
Are there any examples of any professional players/managers who refer to ronaldo as the best player in history?
this thread exploded since there is a poll
Beside the bald cnut and Barcelona fanboys is there anyone who can say Messi is better than Pelé, Maradona or Di Stefano?
No one has seen Pele and 99% of people didn't get a chance to see Di Stefano. Pretty hard comparison tbh. I think Maradona is reasonable win and what misses Messi to overtake him is a World Cup title.
No one has seen Pelé? Are you sure of that? Even Di Stefano?
Maradona I watched even if he wasn't my favourite player he was clearly more charismatic than Messi, so no its not even close to say Messi is the best ever.
I suspect he'd say the same if Messi played for him.
The first time you’ve been resoundingly caught out.
The reporter asked if ronaldo was Real Madrid’s greatest ever player.
If you could find something that’s not from someone who’s currently managing him that would be great. Mourinho said similar.
Pele prime was in the late 50s and early 60s as far as I'm concerned. Pretty hard to find someone who got a chance to witness both at least here. We know Pele mostly from Youtube.
Ah here ok, not in Brazil, and his prime was in the 60's, I even know some older Benfica fans who watched Pelé live with Santos vs Benfica in the old Intercontinental Cup, even knowing what they think about Eusébio I suspect a lot of them would debate who was better between Messi and Pelé, reason why is always dangerous to say this one is the best ever imo.
People saying “how can we say Pele is the greatest when we haven’t seen him play” is crazy isn’t it.
There are many hours worth of footage of him on youtube. Along with the only player to win 3 World Cups.
When every football expert ever and the majority of fans and players who have played with him would say he is the greatest Brazilian footballer ever. Which says it all.
Being viewed better than Jairzinho, Garrincha, Rivelino, C.Alberto, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Romario, Ronaldinho, Zico.
That list is some of the greatest footballers of all time. All in the best 100 ever easily and Pele tops the lot.
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