Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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Cal? said:
So 2 not so great players in a team that included the likes of Zidane, Henry, Thuram was worse than Chile?
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I’d rather play with 9 men than those two :lol:

So strange in retrospect to see those two beside some absolute legends.

Greece deserve a bit more credit though. They had in my opinion the most underrated coach in the history of the game at their helm, if ever a team proved the value of an excellent coach it was that Greece side.
 
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Look and guess who is the 1 who improves everyone on his team?
 
SCP said:
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You mean this one?
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God that has to be photoshopped?

I personally don’t rate either or their style. Whoever wins the battle for that crown between them is like winning the award for being the best footballer in San Marino.
 
Arbitrium said:
God that has to be photoshopped?

I personally don’t rate either or their style. Whoever wins the battle for that crown between them is like winning the award for being the best footballer in San Marino.
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Probably don't remember him being so bad, even for his own vulgar standards must say :lol:
 
It looks like the kind of thing he’d have been forced to wear on a Japanese show
 
It was from a Barcelona forum in English language, but it is terrible.
 
Peyroteo said:
LeBron hasn’t won it because he hasn’t been the best player during the regular season. Westbrook won it last year, did his team have the best record?

LeBron is considered the better because in the playoffs he stops coasting and he raises his game.
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No, LeBron is considered to be the best because over the past I dont' know how many years he's been a lot better at playing basketball than anyone else on the planet. No one needs to use any sort of argument like "LeBron is the best because he's better when it really matters". The same was also true for Jordan, Maradona, Gretzky etc, or you can even take a guy like Nadal on a clay court. They were the best players because they were consistently the best players game in and game out, they were not the best because they were better than the rest in 10% of the games they played in total over their 15 year careers.

As for LeBron raising his game, he's got very similar stats in the playoffs as he has in the regular season (worse in fact, just like every other high scoring player), so he doesn't step it up, he just continues to do what he always does.
 
Zlaatan said:
No, LeBron is considered to be the best because over the past I dont' know how many years he's been a lot better at playing basketball than anyone else on the planet. No one needs to use any sort of argument like "LeBron is the best because he's better when it really matters". The same was also true for Jordan, Maradona, Gretzky etc, or you can even take a guy like Nadal on a clay court. They were the best players because they were consistently the best players game in and game out, they were not the best because they were better than the rest in 10% of the games they played in total over their 15 year careers.
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How do you think Maradona would be rated if he played average games in both World Cups (86 and 90) and Argentina don't get to the final in either?
 
Peyroteo said:
How do you think Maradona would be rated if he played average games in both World Cups (86 and 90) and Argentina don't get to the final in either?
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Not for me but, probably not the God status around the World and in Argentina but still God status at Napoli, he still isn't very liked at Barcelona.
 
Billy Blaggs said:
Why isn't he liked in Barcelona?
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Because the 2 years Maradona spent there didn't fulfilled the expecations around him, lots of controversies in and out of the pitch, butchered by Goikoetxea from Bilbao followed by violent confontations with Bilbao players if I am not wrong.
 
SCP said:
Because the 2 years Maradona spent there didn't fulfilled the expecations around him, lots of controversies in and out of the pitch, butchered by Goikoetxea from Bilbao followed by violent confontations with Bilbao players if I am not wrong.
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I remember the Bilbao thing but I didn't know that Barcelona fans weren't fond of him.
 
Peyroteo said:
It's the fourth time you make this exact comment. Yes, I say that they're wrong because I believe they're wrong. What's the fecking problem?

Their argument makes absolutely no sense, I'm pointing it out. I have no problem if someone thinks Messi is better because I believe it to be very close, if it's a disagreement on how people view their performances on the pitch that's one thing. If their argument makes absolutely no sense, then that's another.

The majority keeps saying Messi's the better player because they score about the same and Messi creates more which is an argument that makes absolutely no sense if you understand how the different competitions in this sport work.
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Well, in my opinion, your arguments don't make any sense either. You are doing the exact same thing you accuse "Messi fanboys" of: Downplaying his achievements because you have an agenda. You keep saying that you do not reduce the debate to goal statistics but emphasize great performances in big games. Yet, great performances consist solely of goals for you. What if I said that Messi's CL spells in 2009, 2011 and 2015 were as impressive as Ronaldo's 2017? You would argue "but Ronaldo scored so and so many goals in the knockout stages, how can you say such a stupid thing?" You do not even consider that Messi made up for the difference in goals by contributing more through his dribblings, playmaking, passing and so on.

And no, at this stage of his career Ronaldo does not contribute anything besides his goals. He is an average dribbler and passer at best. Look exemplarily at his Bayern game where he scored three goals. His dribbling attempts were downright embarassing and his crosses simply bad. In fact, he managed to get at the end of two good crosses and finished them brillantly and received a pass that placed him in front of an open goal. Marcelo had a much more impressive performance in this game. Yes, he contributed more when he was younger but then he rarely convinced on the big stage.

His finishing is probably the best I have ever seen but that is not enough for me. There is a reason why historically the best players were almost never the best goalscorers but playermakers and dribblers. Those may not end up on the scoring sheet but they are the most important players for their teams. And Messi is as good as anyone in this aspect of the game - ontop of being one of the best goal scorers the game has ever seen.

And yes, Messi showed this on the big stage time and time again. People tend to say he has had a bad game if he did not score but this is not true (again this reduction of his performances to goals). Exemplarily, he was the best player in the WC final 2014 by quite a margin and I say this as a German. And he also was the best player against Chile in the last Copa. In both games, he constantly dribbled past two or three players like it was nothing (against Chile he provoked multiple cards including a sending off within the first hour because he could only be stopped through fouls if I remember correctly).
 
Pff, now the Messi propaganda even coming from Germany, best player in the pitch against Germany and Chile? You mean those 2 finals he lost and where everybody and my dog laughed when he received the player of the tournament award?
 
Zehner said:
Well, in my opinion, your arguments don't make any sense either. You are doing the exact same thing you accuse "Messi fanboys" of: Downplaying his achievements because you have an agenda. You keep saying that you do not reduce the debate to goal statistics but emphasize great performances in big games. Yet, great performances consist solely of goals for you. What if I said that Messi's CL spells in 2009, 2011 and 2015 were as impressive as Ronaldo's 2017? You would argue "but Ronaldo scored so and so many goals in the knockout stages, how can you say such a stupid thing?" You do not even consider that Messi made up for the difference in goals by contributing more through his dribblings, playmaking, passing and so on.
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Messi 2011 was as good as Ronaldo in 2017... if you make up what I say and then argue against it, it's very easy to say I'm wrong. Great performances do not solely consist of goals and I never said that at all.

Zehner said:
And no, at this stage of his career Ronaldo does not contribute anything besides his goals. He is an average dribbler and passer at best. Look exemplarily at his Bayern game where he scored three goals. His dribbling attempts were downright embarassing and his crosses simply bad.
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Yeah that's why he dribbled past Javi Martinez twice, got fouled twice, Javi Martinez got sent off... and Madrid went ahead to win it. He doesn't do anything besides scoring goals... that's why he was the better player on the Napoli round where he didn't score a single goal.

Zehner said:
In fact, he managed to get at the end of two good crosses and finished them brillantly and received a pass that placed him in front of an open goal. Marcelo had a much more impressive performance in this game.
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That's true but that's one game. In that game Ronaldo did pretty much nothing outside of goals, in other games he did. Saying he never does anything outside of goals is just stupid.

Zehner said:
And yes, Messi showed this on the big stage time and time again. People tend to say he has had a bad game if he did not score but this is not true (again this reduction of his performances to goals). Exemplarily, he was the best player in the WC final 2014 by quite a margin and I say this as a German.
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He was what now?

Zehner said:
And he also was the best player against Chile in the last Copa. In both games, he constantly dribbled past two or three players like it was nothing (against Chile he provoked multiple cards including a sending off within the first hour because he could only be stopped through fouls if I remember correctly).
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Ah so when Messi gets a player sent off with his dribbling, it's because he dribbled great. Ronaldo got Javi Martinez sent off and he doesn't do anything outside of goals.

You started off saying why my arguments made no sense but then you didn't say why. Why do they not make sense?
 
SCP said:
Pff, now the Messi propaganda even coming from Germany, best player in the pitch against Germany and Chile? You mean those 2 finals he lost and where everybody and my dog laughed when he received the player of the tournament award?
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Yes, exactly ;) Just watch his highlights. Unfortunately I cannot link videos but I just watched a 12 minute video on YouTube. This was by no means a bad performance. He had incredible dribblings in both finals. It was Diaz who was sent off after 30 minutes (!) after fouling Messi multiple times.
 
Right, April Fools’ Day is over so you all can surely stop this insanity now?

No? Well, I hope when some Alien species comes across us eventually and they wondered about how we used an almost infinitely mind, that they won’t judge you all too harshly regarding the industrial quantities of twaddle on this thread (rational comments notwithstanding).

The saddest thing is that if an Alien did land next week and we showed them both the main protagonists playing football, I’m highly confident, within a few minutes, they’d look at us all puzzled, say ‘Messi, of course’, then blow up this godforesaken planet and, finally, mercifully, this thread will end.

You may say I’m a dreamer...
 
Peyroteo said:
Messi 2011 was as good as Ronaldo in 2017... if you make up what I say and then argue against it, it's very easy to say I'm wrong. Great performances do not solely consist of goals and I never said that at all.
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Doesn't that neglect your argument that Ronaldo is the better CL player?


Peyroteo said:
Yeah that's why he dribbled past Javi Martinez twice, got fouled twice, Javi Martinez got sent off... and Madrid went ahead to win it. He doesn't do anything besides scoring goals... that's why he was the better player on the Napoli round where he didn't score a single goal.
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I rewatched it specifically for this post. Come on.. you have to see the difference. In the first foul it was barely a dribbling but a first touch and Martinez ran into him. The second move was better but also not really a one on one. And apart from that there wasn't much contribution, too. This would be a more than sub-average game for Messi standards. It says something that you mention this game as a positive example.


Peyroteo said:
That's true but that's one game. In that game Ronaldo did pretty much nothing outside of goals, in other games he did. Saying he never does anything outside of goals is just stupid.
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No, it isn't because that's what he does most of the time. It is also in the statistics. When you take a look at his dribblings per game, his key passes per game, chances created and so on his is just an average player nowadays. Nowhere near Messi level and this is the standard he wants to be compared with.


Peyroteo said:
Ah so when Messi gets a player sent off with his dribbling, it's because he dribbled great. Ronaldo got Javi Martinez sent off and he doesn't do anything outside of goals.
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Look up the videos and you see the difference and what I mean with provoking a sending off. Messi received the ball in the midfield and time and time again started his dribblings. He had his opponent sent off 30 minutes into the game. How often was he fouled, 15 times? Sorry, you cannot be serious if you compare these situations. Look how many attacks Messi initiated and how many free kicks in dangerous positions he got for his team (and executed them properly, creating at least two or three great heading opportunities)

Peyroteo said:
You started off saying why my arguments made no sense but then you didn't say why. Why do they not make sense?
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I did. They don't make sense to me because you keep addressing goals as your primary indication of performance level and I do not think that this is valid. You say otherwise but you still do. You do not really accept Messi's great performances in games where he did not score and did not win a title and your argument that Ronaldo still contributes seems pretty desperate and much weaker than your goal statistic driven approaches. I think after all you know very well that there is much truth in the "accusation" that Ronaldo is a pure goal scorer nowadays.
 
It must be so hard to deal with Ronaldo as a defender/team. If he picks the ball up on the half way line, no problem as the days of him speeding away from defenders and doing stopovers to take players on are long gone. He actually stopped doing this whilst he was still capable of doing it because it affected his efficiency, him beating men and putting in crosses meant he scored less goals so he rarely gets involved in the build up the last 3-5 years. But now, defenders only have to man mark him and stay close but yet they can't and time and time again he pops up to score, it's madness his record in the big games the last few years and his ability to be in the right place to finish a chance.

The best Ronaldo to watch was at United in 06-07, that's when he combined all his skills with good output, even in 07-08 he started to focus less on the entertainment side of things and link-up play and his productivity went up but he was painstakingly bad in some games but you can't really moan when a player finishes on 42 goals for the season.

Messi is on a different level for me, his playmaking is the best in the planet but yet somehow his output remains so high. It's crazy how good he is, he can drop deep and spray a 50 yard ball or beat 3/4 men or he can play intricate football on the egde of the box without giving the ball away. His finishing and long range shooting is unbelievable as well, definitely the best player in my lifetime.
 
Zehner said:
Doesn't that neglect your argument that Ronaldo is the better CL player?
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No, why would it?

Zehner said:
I rewatched it specifically for this post. Come on.. you have to see the difference. In the first foul it was barely a dribbling but a first touch and Martinez ran into him. The second move was better but also not really a one on one. And apart from that there wasn't much contribution, too. This would be a more than sub-average game for Messi standards. It says something that you mention this game as a positive example.
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Sub average game... Messi's had one better game than that in the past 3 fecking years in the knockouts of the Champions League and that was a couple of weeks ago.

Zehner said:
INo, it isn't because that's what he does most of the time. It is also in the statistics. When you take a look at his dribblings per game, his key passes per game, chances created and so on his is just an average player nowadays. Nowhere near Messi level and this is the standard he wants to be compared with.
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We're talking about his Champions League games but now you've changed you're tune. Now you're saying he doesn't do as much as Messi outside of scoring goals (which is true overall) but in the first post you said he added absolutely nothing to the game besides scoring and that is bullshit.

Zehner said:
Look up the videos and you see the difference and what I mean with provoking a sending off. Messi received the ball in the midfield and time and time again started his dribblings. He had his opponent sent off 30 minutes into the game. How often was he fouled, 15 times? Sorry, you cannot be serious if you compare these situations. Look how many attacks Messi initiated and how many free kicks in dangerous positions he got for his team (and executed them properly, creating at least two or three great heading opportunities)
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I mean it was the exact same situation for Ronaldo except it was in the second half rather than at the 30 minute mark. Ronaldo created chances too, better ones in fact.

Not sure why we're comparing those 2 games now. You said Ronaldo added nothing outside of goals, I gave an example of him adding something outside of goals... and now you're moving the goalposts.

I wasn't even talking about the current version of Ronaldo either, he's the greatest CL player of the two because of what he's done throughout his career, not because of what he's done in the past 2 years.

Zehner said:
I did. They don't make sense to me because you keep addressing goals as your primary indication of performance level and I do not think that this is valid. You say otherwise but you still do. You do not really accept Messi's great performances in games where he did not score and did not win a title and your argument that Ronaldo still contributes seems pretty desperate and much weaker than your goal statistic driven approaches. I think after all you know very well that there is much truth in the "accusation" that Ronaldo is a pure goal scorer nowadays.
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Where the bloody hell did I do that? I merely said their main role on the pitch for both of them is their direct impact on their team's goals. Not just their goals, but the teammates goals. Then I said goals and assists are a very good measure of that and they should be taken into account. I never said goals are the only reason to judge a player's performance like you say I did but you can be sure goals are damn important. That's how you get those points that lead to winning games in this sport.

And Messi's had plenty of great games without scoring. Where did I say he didn't? It's like you're making up what I say and then arguing it.
 
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Peyroteo said:
No, why would it?
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Then why do you think Ronaldo is the greater CL player? If you believe that Messi's 2011 was just as good as Ronaldo's 2017 what exactly lets you rate him higher then the Argentinian?

If I understood you correctly it is all about the idea that Ronaldo steps up in the big games ("clutch player") and this reputation is primarily based on his CL performance last season. But if you hold Messi's performance just as high shouldn't that mean that they would at least be on par for you? I mean, if it is not about goals and you do not deny that Messi is the better overall footballer (playmaking, dribbling, passing etc.) and you agree that Messi's best seasons are up there with Ronaldo's, then what's your point after all?


Peyroteo said:
We're talking about his Champions League games but now you've changed you're tune. Now you're saying he doesn't do as much as Messi outside of scoring goals (which is true overall) but in the first post you said he added absolutely nothing to the game besides scoring and that is bullshit.
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This may be a little bit exaggerated. Of course he contributes a little but as I said before, as of today he is average in it. Far, far away from world class.


Peyroteo said:
I mean it was the exact same situation for Ronaldo except it was in the second half rather than at the 30 minute mark. Ronaldo created chances too, better ones in fact.

Not sure why we're comparing those 2 games now.
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No, it wasn't the exact same situation and I think you know that. Ronaldo gets fouled on his first touch two times in a row, there is nothing special or particularly difficult in his movements. You really cannot compare the dribblings that lead to the yellow cards. Honestly, it is silly that you deny that.


Peyroteo said:
Where the bloody hell did I do that? I merely said their main role on the pitch for both of them is their direct impact on their team's goals. Not just their goals, but the teammates goals. Then I said goals and assists are a very good measure of that and they should be taken into account. I never said goals are the only reason to judge a player's performance like you say I did.

And Messi's had plenty of great games without scoring. Where did I say he didn't? It's like you're making up what I say and then arguing it.
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I could go back and search for quotes that imply the exact same thing but honestly, this gets a little bit out of hand and I am not willing to spend the required amount of time just to prove a point. You keep saying that it is not all about goals for you but in the end most of your arguments are based on these very statistics. Things like the goals and assists statistics you mentioned.

But maybe I'm wrong. Possibly I just assumed that you pay so much importance to goals because it is the only aspect in the game where Ronaldo can compete with Messi if you ask me.

Maybe in the end we just perceive Ronaldo's performances completely different. It seems to me that you just rate Cristiano's overall contribution much higher than I do and I have to strongly disagree with this.
 
In the last 10 years, Ronaldo and Messi shared each 5 Ballon d'Or. Make you wonder where the claim of "it's been no contest" comes from??

And that include Ronaldo was "robbed" one by Kaka on his early days, and Sneijder was actually deserved one, but went to Messi.
 
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Isotope said:
Why so in the last 10 years, Ronaldo and Messi shared each 5 Ballon d'Or, which is an individual award. Make you wonder where the claim of "it's been no contest" comes from??
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Last 11 years since they've been top players in the world, Ronaldo finished above Messi 6 times in the Ballon D'Or voting. All of them correctly too, don't think it was even a small margin on any of them.

People can prefer one of the other but anyone that says it's not a contest doesn't understand how the sport works. Which isn't great for this place considering there's 2 comments saying that every single page
 
Zehner said:
Then why do you think Ronaldo is the greater CL player? If you believe that Messi's 2011 was just as good as Ronaldo's 2017 what exactly lets you rate him higher then the Argentinian?
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Him performing better overall? Just because their two best years in the competition were as good as eachother doesn't mean one can't be better than the other.

I've already answered that question about 5 different times, so just look for it here.

Zehner said:
If I understood you correctly it is all about the idea that Ronaldo steps up in the big games ("clutch player") and this reputation is primarily based on his CL performance last season. But if you hold Messi's performance just as high shouldn't that mean that they would at least be on par for you? I mean, if it is not about goals and you do not deny that Messi is the better overall footballer (playmaking, dribbling, passing etc.) and you agree that Messi's best seasons are up there with Ronaldo's, then what's your point after all?
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That Ronaldo's performed better, if you were to rate their CL seasons individually Ronaldo would end up with a better grade if I added it all on. That was the case before last season happened too, last season just made the gap a lot bigger. You call being better at playmaking, dribbling and passing as being the better footballer so I'm not sure we're watching the same sports as there is a lot more to being a footballer than that.

Zehner said:
No, it wasn't the exact same situation and I think you know that. Ronaldo gets fouled on his first touch two times in a row, there is nothing special or particularly difficult in his movements. You really cannot compare the dribblings that lead to the yellow cards. Honestly, it is silly that you deny that.
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I couldn't care less how difficult they are, I care about how effective they are.

Zehner said:
I could go back and search for quotes that imply the exact same thing but honestly, this gets a little bit out of hand and I am not willing to spend the required amount of time just to prove a point. You keep saying that it is not all about goals for you but in the end most of your arguments are based on these very statistics. Things like the goals and assists statistics you mentioned.

But maybe I'm wrong. Possibly I just assumed that you pay so much importance to goals because it is the only aspect in the game where Ronaldo can compete with Messi if you ask me.

Maybe in the end we just perceive Ronaldo's performances completely different. It seems to me that you just rate Cristiano's overall contribution much higher than I do and I have to strongly disagree with this.
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Goals and assists are part of my argument, they are not my argument. Very different things.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself, I don't think there's anything I haven't already said in this thread so it's time to leave. Feel free to answer anyway though
 
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