there's not much to answer though. you make it sound like he's playing for Estonia, not for team that proved that they're good enough to win against France without him, and like Argentina was managed by prime Lippi class of managers in recent times compared to Santos.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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there's not much to answer though. you make it sound like he's playing for Estonia, not for team that proved that they're good enough to win against France without him, and like Argentina was managed by prime Lippi class of managers in recent times compared to Santos.
Are you trying to say to me it is the same thing to play for Portugal when probably your second best player in the team is Pepe, when you play against top teams you have to play counter attacking football, while you are managed by someone whose attacking plan relies on crossing balls to the area?On the other hand Messi has players like Higuain, Di Maria, Aguero, and the list goes on, you know Messi has better players around him, you have to be honest.
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That team also proved to not be good enough to break Andorra down without him, so that goes both ways. It's football, shocking results happen. We were clearly worse than France in the final and are half as good without him on the pitch.
Agreed on the managers though, they've both had some shocking ones.
I was just thinking that, Ronaldo was outstanding in their run in 2004. I still remember the game when he destroyed Spain on his own.
Good point, and he didn't need to score a goal to be influential, this they never say, I am going to repeat the same, Messi is better, we just have to be honest regarding the analysis.
On the other hand Messi has players like Higuain, Di Maria, Aguero, and the list goes on, you know Messi has better players around him, you have to be honest.
what I'm saying is this - when we talk about Ronaldo, results are the most important thing in the world and are the ultimate proof of class. which is fair, I guess.
but somehow, when we talk about Argentina, their results or lack of them, their performances in qualifications, their record without Messi and the fact they are currently behind Portugal in fifa rankings speak nothing for some strange reason - what matters more in these discussions is some hidden hypothetical class they may unleash in future hypothetical game. one day. if their manager, whoever that may be when that happens, find the right tactics. and midfield. and fullbacks.
so what's more important in the end, performances on the field and results or some hypothetical class that Argentina never show? I'm asking because you seem to be switching from one to another when it suits you.
2014,2015,2016, 3 finals in a row, how can you say his team is bad when they reached 3 finals?
the same way you can say Portugal is bad even though they're obviously good enough to win the euro
No because that win wasn't based on logic, probably from what I can remember maybe only the 2014 team was worse, while Messi had world class players around him, not Lord Eder, just the fact you want to compare Eder with Higuain or Aguero is something else.the same way you can say Portugal is bad even though they're obviously good enough to win the euro
On the other hand Messi has players like Higuain, Di Maria, Aguero, and the list goes on, you know Messi has better players around him, you have to be honest.
Portugal have/had players who have plied their trade among the best teams in Europe including the likes of Pepe, Carvalho (William and Ricardo), Alves, Meireles, Quaresma, Nani, Moutinho, Bosingwa, Tiago and Simao. They've almost ALWAYS had a solid base to work from with the exception of a reliable centre-forward since Pauleta.
Argentina are the exact opposite. They've been blessed with an abundance of attacking talent over the last few decades, but their midfield/defence has never quite been the same since the days of Ayala, Riquelme and Cambiasso. Even Veron was in his 30's by the time Messi was hitting his prime.
To add to that, those players mentioned (Higuain, Aguero and to a lesser extent Di Maria) have been pitiful for their nation. You can't just band their names about because they've forged a big reputation for themselves at Club level. Seems to be alot of 'make it up as you go along' going on here....
Come on, we are discussing them both when they became the two best players in the world. Not when Ronaldo was 18 and Messi was 15.
except he didn't have Manchester City's Aguero or Napoli's Higuain around him - he had regular Argentina versions of them, which are far from world class. which is why Eder has more goals in finals than Higuain and Aguero in all those finals you've mentioned - combined
Ok you are right on this 1.
Now starts the myth he did it all alone. Ok, I must say last WC Messi was excelent, particularly in the group stages, while Cristiano for different reasons always performed better at the Euros, but we are not discussing that, already said Messi is the better from the 2, just being fair with Cristiano because Messi fans are always dismissing him, that's all.except he didn't have Manchester City's Aguero or Napoli's Higuain around him - he had regular Argentina versions of them, which are far from world class. which is why Eder has more goals in finals than Higuain and Aguero in all those finals you've mentioned - combined
I would say that Argentina perform poorly relative to their quality partially because of Messi. There is a feeling that it is not the Argentina national team but the Messi NT. This is why they are so reliant on him despite having top players; they aren't coached to play as a team but to play around Messi.
Portugal on the other hand are worse off in terms of personnel, so they focus on being a good unit with Ronaldo as a cherry on top.
The way Sampaoli talks about Messi is a bit troubling; because it's as if he is bigger than the team itself. Players need to feel valued and part of a bigger picture, and that's hard to do when a player is managed by different rules to everyone else.
Portugal on the other hand are worse off in terms of personnel, so they focus on being a good unit with Ronaldo as a cherry on top.
The way Sampaoli talks about Messi is a bit troubling; because it's as if he is bigger than the team itself. Players need to feel valued and part of a bigger picture, and that's hard to do when a player is managed by different rules to everyone else.
I give up, you guys want to twist facts and turn them into reality, can't stand more this, I can already see the totally out of proportion glorification of Messi if they beat Iceland, with all the respect I have for them. @Peyroteo I don't know how you try to discuss with them, now I have to read Cristiano is the lucky 1 while Messi is very unlucky to play for Argentina, this is too much for me.
2 finals. Ronaldo plays for Portugal, Messi plays for Argentina. The Euros doesn't compare to the Copa America either. I'm sorry but getting to a Copa America final as Argentina in years where Brazil is crap is pretty much the minimum expected result. In terms of team results there isn't any question at all at who's done better for their countries as of now. I also don't think it matters much when judging them individually though, they're the star players but overall results depend on a lot more than them.
As for individual performances, the only thing holding Ronaldo back were the 2 last World Cups but you can't ignore the fact he was injured for both, especially in 2014 where he shouldn't have even played. In the Euros he's been good to great every single time and he's already the top scorer and the player with most appearances in the competition with 2020 still to be played. He was very good in 2006, but his WC record isn't good enough for a player as good as him even if outside circumstances played a big part in that.
Now starts the myth he did it all alone. Ok, I must say last WC Messi was excelent, particularly in the group stages, while Cristiano for different reasons always performed better at the Euros, but we are not discussing that, already said Messi is the better from the 2, just being fair with Cristiano because Messi fans are always dismissing him, that's all.
I'm not starting anything tbf because I don't really think Messi has had outstanding tournament that year, certainly not a mythical one like Maradona or Pele have had. he was very good, that's for sure. but, had Argentina won the final with Messi being shit or injured, it really wouldn't change much for me in this debate, as I already wrote couple of pages ago.
what I think of Messi is based mostly on what I see him do on the pitch and that is not affected by trophies alone. so unless he actually managed to perform in final on level you would usually call one man show, that world cup trophy with Argentina woudn't really add or change anything that I already don't know about him.
but that's also the main reason Ronaldo can't impress me enough to change my opinion.
I give up, you guys want to twist facts and turn them into reality, can't stand more this, I can already see the totally out of proportion glorification of Messi if they beat Iceland, with all the respect I have for them. @Peyroteo I don't know how you try to discuss with them, now I have to read Cristiano is the lucky 1 while Messi is very unlucky to play for Argentina, this is too much for me.
Yeah it's ridiculous. Argentina's last problem for the Messi years has been personnel and Messi's had a better supporting cast there every single year than Ronaldo with Portugal. I think some people need to look back at our lineups during the big tournaments of the past few years and read about some of those players.
When you have people complaining about Argentina's midfield composed of Banega, Lo Celso, Paredes, Mascherano, Biglia, etc..
@breakout67's post above sums it up pretty accurately.
Ah now this is nonsense.
First of all Ronaldo was 18 in 2004 and Messi was 15. That is why I didn’t mention it, becase we are discussing comparisons when they were both the two best in the world.
Secondly do you think Messi in that Portugal team instead of Ronaldo wouldn’t have won the Euro?
Ronaldo scored twice in the group stage in the game they drew 3-3. Where was he at for the other 2 games? Against low standards teams may I add.
Then he scored 1 against Wales in the semi final when they were 1-0 up already.
He barely did anything and they would most likely have won the Euro without him.
Do you really think Croatia Poland and Wales, (the teams that Ronaldo featured against in the knock out rounds) are better than Switzerland Belgium and Netherlands in the WC vs Argentina?
Or do you think they are much better than Columbia and Paraguay from the CA 2015, or Usa and Venezuela from the CA 2016. Besides Chile beat Mexico 7-0 in the Semi and are no slouches, they are better than Portugal.
Ronaldo has not been a major reason Portugal got to the 2 finals he has featured in.
In 2016 Messi scored in the quarters and semi of the CA. He also got 2 assists in the semi vs USA along with a goal. He also got 3 assists and a goal vs Venezuela.
In 2015 CA he got 3 assists vs Paraguay in the Semi.
WC 2014 he got the assist for the 1-0 win vs Switzerland in the last 16.
Portugal would most likely have not beaten Chile in either CA Final.
Please look at what I showed you without bias and tell me how Ronaldo has been better than Messi at international level?
Because Messi has been easily better.
How the hell is it? Ronaldo did nothing in Euro 2004 anyway and they would have got to the final without him, just like 2016.
Here we go again...
Poor Messi, if only he had Postiga to play with him, he probably would have won Copa America, who needs Higuain or Aguero when you can play with Postiga, Hugo Almeida or Eder
They don't know what Cristiano had to play. Meireles, Veloso, even Moutinho or Carlos Martins?
Not to mention the zombie Walking Gomes, later João Mário or Adrien, the only good players recently are William or Danilo, for me better than the current Mascherano or Biglia, the rest is a bad joke, I still think I know better what Cristiano has in the NT.
Maybe in 2004 while he had Deco, Maniche, Costinha with experienced players like Figo, Rui Costa or Pauleta we can say Cristiano had support, later it was only Pepe, Nani, sometimes Coentrão or Moutinho, ok Ricardo Carvalho too, but its not serious trying to say Messi conditions are worse at NT level.
They aren't.
I give up, you guys want to twist facts and turn them into reality, can't stand more this, I can already see the totally out of proportion glorification of Messi if they beat Iceland, with all the respect I have for them. @Peyroteo I don't know how you try to discuss with them, now I have to read Cristiano is the lucky 1 while Messi is very unlucky to play for Argentina, this is too much for me.
How did you manage to get to that conclusion?
Neither of them have been lucky, they've both been very unfortunate to miss out on their sides golden period whilst they were still so young - Ronaldo around 2004 and Messi around 2006. Since then they've both reached additional finals and broken records for their countries, it's been stellar, but they have both failed to deliver the same kind of godly form they've been capable of producing for Real Madrid and Barcelona, and both nations have been on a very level playing field.
In 2016 the difference was Eder belted his chance in whilst Higuain fluffed (another) chance. You won't find many who say Ronaldo had a better tournament that year than Messi did leading to the final, yet Ronaldo was the one who walked away with an international trophy for his CV.
Perhaps I've completely missed the point here (if there even was one), but Lo Celso has just 4 international caps, Paredes has 1. Mascherano has been playing almost exclusively as a central defender at Club level since 2009, the most surprising thing about that is it hasn't affected his performances for Argentina.
He was one of our best players in 2004 ffs. 'just like 2016' just makes that comment beyond terrible, no Ronaldo and we go out in the group stages on that one
@The holy trinity 68
Just in team of the tournament, nothing special.
It would be easier if you just admitted you forgot!
Just in team of the tournament, nothing special.
It would be easier if you just admitted you forgot!
Here we go again...
Poor Messi, if only he had Postiga to play with him, he probably would have won Copa America, who needs Higuain or Aguero when you can play with Postiga, Hugo Almeida or Eder
They don't know what Cristiano had to play. Meireles, Veloso, even Moutinho or Carlos Martins?
Not to mention the zombie Walking Gomes, later João Mário or Adrien, the only good players recently are William or Danilo, for me better than the current Mascherano or Biglia, the rest is a bad joke, I still think I know better what Cristiano has in the NT.
Maybe in 2004 while he had Deco, Maniche, Costinha with experienced players like Figo, Rui Costa or Pauleta we can say Cristiano had support, later it was only Pepe, Nani, sometimes Coentrão or Moutinho, ok Ricardo Carvalho too, but its not serious trying to say Messi conditions are worse at NT level.
They aren't.
What kind of rubbish is this lol. Cristiano featured 20 minutes in the final. Eder actually scored so yeah maybe it would be good. You're just deliberately naming the worse Portuguese players when you could mention Mario, Sanches (had a very good tournament), Nani, Quaresma, and Pepe who by the way was the best player that tournament.
What the hell are you talking about?
He was Portugal's topscorer in 2004 and was in the team of the tournament.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040707012523/http://www.euro2004.com/News/Kind=1/newsId=205742.html
By your logic we shouldn't be talking about Messi having won 4 CLs, the first one he didn't feature from the QF onwards.
Messi in the Portugal team may have won the Euro, I could argue Ronaldo in the Argentina side could have won the WC, it's just pointless speculation.
You try to make it sound like those teams in Copa America are all good side, nothing can be further from the truth, 1-2 years after those tournaments, Paraguay, USA and Venezuela have all failed to qualify for the WC. Venezuela finishing rock bottom of the Conmebol qualifying.
Let me point out again, Messi played all those 3 finals IN FULL, contributing to them LOSING all 3 games.
He was one of our best players in 2004 ffs. 'just like 2016' just makes that comment beyond terrible, no Ronaldo and we go out in the group stages on that one
He only scored 3 times all tournament in 2016, and in 2004 he scored 1 goal.
No he scored 2 with 19 years, the first was coming from the bench in the first match with the inept Scolari against Greece, the second was vs the Dutch in the semifinals, also had good performance vs Spain and England. The same age as Mbappé has now. Come on you are being harsh on him, admit it.
He had 2 goals and 2 assists that tournament and was one of our best players. I'm guessing you don't remember it very well but you should at least search for those facts. He was even better in 2006 too by the way. During that period he was actually playing better for Portugal than he was for United, then when Carlos Queiroz was the manager he started underperforming with the national team and had the portuguese media against him. Queiroz left, he started being as good for us as he was for Madrid and now the media treat him like he's the pope.
I won't even answer to your meltdown above. If you actually think Ronaldo wasn't a major reason in Portugal getting to the 2 finals they've been to then I have no idea what to tell you. If he doesn't bail us out a bunch of times during qualification we might have very well not even gone to the damn tournament.
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3 goals made him the 2nd highest scorer in the Euro 2016, and Portugal's top scorer. He was Portugal's top scorer in 2004 as well.
In fact he's been Portugal's top scorer in 2004, 2008, 2012 and 2016. In 2012 also tournament top scorer.
He's the all time top scorer in the Euros.
Your first paragraph and last are quite conflicting. Messi got to 3 finals scoring and assisting more than Ron did in either of his yet you say “Messi lost 3 finals, where as Ronaldo lost 1 and the other he didnt even feature.
I also don’t count Messi as winning 4 as he barely featured in 2007.
No he scored 2 with 19 years, the first was coming from the bench in the first match with the inept Scolari against Greece, the second was vs the Dutch in the semifinals, also had good performance vs Spain and England. The same age as Mbappé has now. Come on you are being harsh on him, admit it.
I am being harsh but people saying Ronaldo has been better at international level is proposterous. Messi has been better but argument against that is “that Messi plays for Argentina and Ronaldo Portugal”. Messi is by far the best player for Argentina, with the likes of very good players like Aguero and Higuain constantly being poor.
Higuain converting his chances and Messi would have a couple trophies with Argentina. Higuain and others scoring instead of missing is the marginal difference between it even being a debate over Messi vs Ronaldo at international level.
First part, you are bigging Ron up for being good in the tournament yet his team lost the final, but Messi is getting knocked for being the best player in tournaments for Argentina but losing finals. Hypocrisy is crazy.
3 goals, 2 against absolute crap, the other against Wales, the mighty Wales.
Klose is the all time top scored in the WC, he isn’t seen as the greatest WC player though is he.
Ronaldo and Portugal played terribly in the Euro win, they got a bit of luck. Ronaldo was not good at all.
fecking hell, no it's not. I have never ever said Ronaldo should be considered above Messi because one won the tournament and the other didn't.
So you're accusing me of being an hypocrite for doing something I didn't do. Your posts on the last page are a trainwreck, half of your facts are completely wrong
You literally did do the thing you're saying you don't do. Here...
Who? I only say he has been playing with worse players than Messi overall.
Put Messi playing with Eder, Postiga or Hugo Almeida and then give me a phone call.
In the last WC he was by far. Problem is Cristiano shouldn't have played, while in 2010 Queiroz had the brilliant idea to make him a pure striker in a 4/3/3 where the team against Ivory Coast, Brazil or Spain only defended. There are no miracles.
Incredible, all Messi fans blame Higuain, it never is Messi fault, just wonder why?
I already said between the 2 I think Messi makes the team overall better, but he is a playmaker, while Cristiano today doesn't play against the opponents, he is just going there to kill the goalkeepers, for that he needs good players around him, to let his abilities inside the box to make the rest.
This reminds me of the fact we played in a World Cup against Brazil with 4 centrebacks and a front 3 of Duda, Danny and Ronaldo. We didn't lose the game either
You seem to be implying that playing the full game and LOSING is a better performance than getting injured and WINNING?
The fact remains that Messi contributed to Argentina LOSING those finals, particularly the one where he missed the penalty.
Ronaldo has scored more and won more for Portugal than Messi has for Argentina, it's pretty clear that he has been better.
Football is a game of fine margins, Portugal lost 1-0 to France in WC 2006 where Figo had a great chance, if he had converted, etc, etc. The fact is Higuain didn't, and Messi won sod all.
You seriously want to go into quality of opposition? Who did Messi score against in the Copa 16? Mighty Panama, Venezuela and USA - Copa 2015? Paraguay ONLY, 1 goal in the entire tournament.
World Cup 2014? Bonsia, Iran and Nigeria, nothing in any of the knockout stage. If it wasn't go Higuain, the person you seem to blame for Messi's continual failure at the international stage, they might not even have beaten Belgium.
Fecking hell, don't even want to remember that lineup, did we make any shot on goal?This reminds me of the fact we played in a World Cup against Brazil with 4 centrebacks and a front 3 of Duda, Danny and Ronaldo. We didn't lose the game either
Only thing I remember is we scored 7 goals vs North Korea on that tournament and only suffered 1 goal vs Spain. Oh the other 3 games we didn't scored nothing, poor North Koreans must have faced a tough time coming back home.
Now I remember, someting like Bruno Alves, Ricardo Carvalho, Ricardo Costa and other bloke. And this guys want me to take them seriously?
Imagine Messi instead Di Maria having Duda, Danny or Hugo Almeida? Even if Queiroz was better than Maradona, a difficult person to like must be said.
Even though you basically admit Messi is the 'better' footballer?
I personally don't think Ronaldo has ever put in a performance as good as Messi in the CL final v Man United at Wembley. Not to mention the games where he has put 5 past Leverkusen, 4 past Arsenal etc.
That 1 goal Spain scored would have been ruled out if there was VAR.Fecking hell, don't even want to remember that lineup, did we make any shot on goal?
Only thing I remember is we scored 7 goals vs North Korea on that tournament and only suffered 1 goal vs Spain. Oh the other 3 games we didn't scored nothing, poor North Koreans must have faced a tough time coming back home.
Now I remember, someting like Bruno Alves, Ricardo Carvalho, Ricardo Costa and other bloke. And this guys want me to take them seriously?
Imagine Messi instead Di Maria having Duda, Danny or Hugo Almeida? Even if Queiroz was better than Maradona, a difficult person to like must be said.
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