There's a higher risk that he'd have got injured more frequently and that he'd have had a less sustained career at the top. I think that's pretty clear from the treatment Pele, Maradona and Van Basten received. But I still think he'd have developed the way he did and, if anything, he invites less of those tackles because he doesn't take players on in the same way he did as a flying winger.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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There are too many variables, you can't just act as if it would be the same if he was born 70 years ago.
Would he have had conditions he has now that helped him develop like he did now? Nourishment, drive etc? Would he be that hungry for success if he haven't watched the legends play while growing up?
These are just some of the tackles you can see in the background of Best's complication.
Also my father had the privilege to watch Pele, Garrincha, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Charlton, Muller, Kempes etc and when I asked him to compare tackles now and then he told me difference is day and night, those were the crazy tackles back then.
Pele had immense physical prowess it's true, but he had greater talent than Ronaldo as well, it wasn't just all physique.
Of course, this entire discussion is hypothetical, including the premise which you provided. The amount of luck, timing, opportunity involved in every success ever is obviously a huge part.
Well, of course, because it was allowed back then, but those players who endured them weren't from another planet, and when we are talking about one of the fittest players in the history of the game, regardless of the rules, then the logical conclusion would be that he would be able to endure them the same way.
Of course, but if there was one thing in which he was absolutely ahead of his time and generation, it was his physical fitness, and the combination of physical attributes such as pace, acceleration, leap, upper body strength, stamina, endurance, etc. Defenders of that generation had never seen anything like that.
Edit: Your username is rather apt for this discussion.
Of course, this entire discussion is hypothetical, including the premise which you provided. The amount of luck, timing, opportunity involved in every success ever is obviously a huge part.
Well, of course, because it was allowed back then, but those players who endured them weren't from another planet, and when we are talking about one of the fittest players in the history of the game, regardless of the rules, then the logical conclusion would be that he would be able to endure them the same way.
Of course, but if there was one thing in which he was absolutely ahead of his time and generation, it was his physical fitness, and the combination of physical attributes such as pace, acceleration, leap, upper body strength, stamina, endurance, etc. Defenders of that generation had never seen anything like that.
Edit: Your username is rather apt for this discussion.
But hey it would be great if we could somehow switch places and see old legends play nowadays and vice versa.
Heard that one before
Oh boy. Thanks for enlightening me.
Absolutely. Doesn't take away from Ronaldo's greatness, but the main argument for Messi being a better player than Ronaldo has been, he can score just as well as Ronaldo, AND playmake in the final 3rd better than anyone.
Now this greatness debate is absolutely legit. Bit of amnesia regarding Messi's past achievements in this thread/recency bias, but the debate is more even, and a case can be made for either.
I've watched football for 50+ years and the general consensus I hear from people of my generation is that "players were better in my day." Well they really weren't. Today's athletes are fitter, stronger, and faster. IMLTHO, Ronaldo and Messi are the two best players I've ever seen.
More CL analyses:
Goals scored in CL:
Messi 94
Ronaldo 105
Messi has 57 goals in the group stages (61%) and 37 (39%) in the knockout stages.
Ronaldo has 51 goals in the group stages (49%) e 54 (51%) in the knockout stages.
Round of 16: Messi 21 goals (22%) Ronaldo 17 goals (16%)
Quarter-Finals: Messi 10 goals (11%) Ronaldo 20 goals (19%)
Semi-Finals: Messi 4 goals (4%) Ronaldo 13 goals (12%)
Finals: Messi 2 goals (2%) Ronaldo 4 goals (4%)
Messi:
Arsenal 9
Celtic Glasgow 8
AC Milan 8
Bayer Leverkusen 7
Ajax 6
Manchester City 6
Bayern Munchen 4
Panathinaikos 4
Paris Saint-Germain 4
Spartak Moskva 4
APOEL Nicosia 3
Kobenhavn 3
Lyon 3
Plzen 3
Shakhtar Donetsk 3
Stuttgart 3
Basel 2
BATE Borisov 2
Dynamo Kyiv 2
Manchester United 2
Real Madrid 2
Roma 2
Borussia Monchengladbach 1
Glasgow Rangers 1
Sporting CP 1
Werder Bremen 1
England 17 (Arsenal 9, Manchester City 6, Manchester United 2)
Germany 16 (Bayer Leverkusen 7, Bayern Munchen 4, Stuttgart 3, Borussia Monchengladbach 1, Werder Bremen 1)
Italy 10 (AC Milan 8, Roma 2)
Scotland 9 (Celtic Glasgow 8, Glasgow Rangers 1)
France 7 (Paris Saint-Germain 4, Lyon 3)
Netherlands 6 (Ajax 6)
Ukraine 5 (Shakhtar Donetsk 3, Dynamo Kyiv 2)
Greece 4 (Panathinaikos 4)
Russia 4 (Spartak Moskva 4)
Cyprus 3 (APOEL Nicosia 3)
Czech Republic 3 (Plzen 3)
Denmark 3 (Kobenhavn 3)
Belarus 2 (BATE Borisov 2)
Spain 2 (Real Madrid 2)
Switzerland 2 (Basel 2)
Portugal 1 (Sporting CP 1)
Ronaldo:
Bayern Munchen 9
Ajax 7
Juventus 7
Schalke 04 7
Galatasaray 6
Malmo 6
Roma 5
Shakhtar Donetsk 5
Atlético Madrid 4
Borussia Dortmund 4
Lyon 4
Marseille 4
CSKA Moskva 3
Dynamo Kyiv 3
Kobenhavn 3
Sporting CP 3
Wolfsburg 3
APOEL Nicosia 2
Arsenal 2
Basel 2
Ludogorets 2
Manchester United 2
AC Milan 2
Tottenham 2
Zurich 2
Auxerre 1
Chelsea 1
Inter 1
Liverpool 1
Manchester City 1
FC Porto 1
Germany 23 (Bayern Munchen 9, Schalke 04 7, Borussia Dortmund 4, Wolfsburg 3)
Italy 15 (Juventus 7, Roma 5, AC Milan 2, Inter 1)
England 9 (Arsenal 2, Manchester United 2, Tottenham 2, Chelsea 1, Liverpool 1, Manchester City 1)
France 9 (Lyon 4, Marseille 4, Auxerre 1)
Ukraine 8 (Shakhtar Donetsk 5, Dynamo Kyiv 3)
Netherlands 7 (Ajax 7)
Sweden 6 (Malmo 6)
Turkey 6 (Galatasaray 6)
Portugal 4 (Sporting CP 3, FC Porto 1)
Spain 4 (Atlético Madrid 4)
Switzerland 4 (Basel 2, Zurich 2)
Denmark 3 (Kobenhavn 3)
Russia 3 (CSKA Moskva 3)
Bulgaria 2 (Ludogorets 2)
Cyprus 2 (APOEL Nicosia 2)
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It seems hard for me to find the same data about assists
Goals scored in CL:
Messi 94
Ronaldo 105
Messi has 57 goals in the group stages (61%) and 37 (39%) in the knockout stages.
Ronaldo has 51 goals in the group stages (49%) e 54 (51%) in the knockout stages.
Round of 16: Messi 21 goals (22%) Ronaldo 17 goals (16%)
Quarter-Finals: Messi 10 goals (11%) Ronaldo 20 goals (19%)
Semi-Finals: Messi 4 goals (4%) Ronaldo 13 goals (12%)
Finals: Messi 2 goals (2%) Ronaldo 4 goals (4%)
Messi:
Arsenal 9
Celtic Glasgow 8
AC Milan 8
Bayer Leverkusen 7
Ajax 6
Manchester City 6
Bayern Munchen 4
Panathinaikos 4
Paris Saint-Germain 4
Spartak Moskva 4
APOEL Nicosia 3
Kobenhavn 3
Lyon 3
Plzen 3
Shakhtar Donetsk 3
Stuttgart 3
Basel 2
BATE Borisov 2
Dynamo Kyiv 2
Manchester United 2
Real Madrid 2
Roma 2
Borussia Monchengladbach 1
Glasgow Rangers 1
Sporting CP 1
Werder Bremen 1
England 17 (Arsenal 9, Manchester City 6, Manchester United 2)
Germany 16 (Bayer Leverkusen 7, Bayern Munchen 4, Stuttgart 3, Borussia Monchengladbach 1, Werder Bremen 1)
Italy 10 (AC Milan 8, Roma 2)
Scotland 9 (Celtic Glasgow 8, Glasgow Rangers 1)
France 7 (Paris Saint-Germain 4, Lyon 3)
Netherlands 6 (Ajax 6)
Ukraine 5 (Shakhtar Donetsk 3, Dynamo Kyiv 2)
Greece 4 (Panathinaikos 4)
Russia 4 (Spartak Moskva 4)
Cyprus 3 (APOEL Nicosia 3)
Czech Republic 3 (Plzen 3)
Denmark 3 (Kobenhavn 3)
Belarus 2 (BATE Borisov 2)
Spain 2 (Real Madrid 2)
Switzerland 2 (Basel 2)
Portugal 1 (Sporting CP 1)
Ronaldo:
Bayern Munchen 9
Ajax 7
Juventus 7
Schalke 04 7
Galatasaray 6
Malmo 6
Roma 5
Shakhtar Donetsk 5
Atlético Madrid 4
Borussia Dortmund 4
Lyon 4
Marseille 4
CSKA Moskva 3
Dynamo Kyiv 3
Kobenhavn 3
Sporting CP 3
Wolfsburg 3
APOEL Nicosia 2
Arsenal 2
Basel 2
Ludogorets 2
Manchester United 2
AC Milan 2
Tottenham 2
Zurich 2
Auxerre 1
Chelsea 1
Inter 1
Liverpool 1
Manchester City 1
FC Porto 1
Germany 23 (Bayern Munchen 9, Schalke 04 7, Borussia Dortmund 4, Wolfsburg 3)
Italy 15 (Juventus 7, Roma 5, AC Milan 2, Inter 1)
England 9 (Arsenal 2, Manchester United 2, Tottenham 2, Chelsea 1, Liverpool 1, Manchester City 1)
France 9 (Lyon 4, Marseille 4, Auxerre 1)
Ukraine 8 (Shakhtar Donetsk 5, Dynamo Kyiv 3)
Netherlands 7 (Ajax 7)
Sweden 6 (Malmo 6)
Turkey 6 (Galatasaray 6)
Portugal 4 (Sporting CP 3, FC Porto 1)
Spain 4 (Atlético Madrid 4)
Switzerland 4 (Basel 2, Zurich 2)
Denmark 3 (Kobenhavn 3)
Russia 3 (CSKA Moskva 3)
Bulgaria 2 (Ludogorets 2)
Cyprus 2 (APOEL Nicosia 2)
******************************
It seems hard for me to find the same data about assists
It's funny that top3 countries Messi scored against are England, Germany and Italy. It's such a shame he isn't proven goalscorer in other leagues.
The whole point would be to score in other leagues while playing for a different that isn't Barcelona.
In terms of being footballers I think Messi is the superior player, but career wise and even greatness wise, I'm starting to think Ronaldo is possibly greater. He has the numbers, the trophies and the media behind him. Different players that require different teams to get the best out of but we have seen that they both need great players, especially in the midfield to win.
I seriously doubt for one second people actually believe Messi wouldn't be a great player in the Prem?
I don't doubt it but one those wonder how well could he do playing in a different league with a different team.
Players like Messi and Ronaldo are too good to fail in other leagues. I honestly find it disrespectful that people could even entertain the thought. Put Messi in one of the top4 teams in the Prem and they would win the league IMO.
only the most dominant and richest clubs can afford players Messi and Ronaldo so you'd bet the rest of the squad would also be just as good. it's not like he would go to Liverpool or Napoli. I think only us, PSG and City would be crazy enough to buy him, just as Madrid were the only ones crazy enough to buy Ronaldo for that kind of money.
This meme that Messi would struggle in the prem needs to stop now. He'd piss all over this league, as he's done to England's best teams in the CL for years. Players far inferior to Messi are amongst the best players in our league.
I still want to see Messi play at the Britannia on a cold, windy and wet Wednesday night, dammit.
Forget improving the squads. I am convinced that if you put Messi in any of the top 4/5 teams in England they would win the league.
At this stage of his career is also pointless as I don't think he's gonna leave Barcelona ever, unless he's going to Argentina to retire or something like that. But it would had been interesting to see him in a Premier League team. Right now people says he's a very complete player but I do think he does need support from his team in order for him to perform at his best, just like Ronaldo did this season with Real Madrid.
Let's go then.
Back in 2012, you may have had a solid argument to claim that Messi was the better player, fast forward 5 years, it's looking more ludicrous by the day.
Incidently, feel free to blame all Messi's national team choking on Higuain.
I'm sure you're objective as the next one while speaking about Ronaldo.Let's go then.
Back in 2012, you may have had a solid argument to claim that Messi was the better player, fast forward 5 years, it's looking more ludicrous by the day.
Incidently, feel free to blame all Messi's national team choking on Higuain.
now that both careers are near their end amazing how lackluster their NT performances in major tournaments are in comparison to other top players
Portugal - population 10.3 million.
Pre-Ronaldo:
World Cup: Semi finals in 1966, Group Stage 1986, Group Stage 2002 (Qualified for 3 tournaments out of 16)
European Championship: Semi Finals in 1984, Quarter Finals in 1996, Semi Finals in 2000 (Qualified for 3 tournaments out of 11)
With Ronaldo:
World Cup: Semi finals in 2006, Round of 16 in 2010, Group Stage in 2014 (Qualified for 3 tournaments out of 3)
European Championship: Runners up in 2004, Quarter Finals in 2008, Semi Finals in 2012, Winners in 2016 (Qualified for 4 tournaments out of 4)
Compare that with England population 53 million who have had 3 semi final appearances and 1 win total in their history in both tournaments combined. In other words in Ronaldo's time playing for Portugal, a country that is less than 20% that of England, they have 1 win, 1 runners up, and 2 semi final appearances which is better than England's all time record. Yes, lets all agree that Ronaldo lad is hopeless playing for his country.
EDIT: that was sarcasm btw.
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The difference is unlike most other greats Cristiano wasn't born in the right country to reach greatness in major international tournaments and the fact that he didn't shine particularly bright in just one tournament. He did in euro 2012 actually, had we won those penalties and had he not hit the post 5 or 6 times more people would recognise it, but my point is you'll struggle to find other greats who gave so much to their team in so many different major tournaments.
After 2006, Portugal's golden generation pretty much ended. Pauleta, Figo, Rui Costa, even the likes of Maniche or Costinha were done. Deco only had one more tournament in him too. The feeling for a lot of people at the time was that Portugal would go back to being the team that were lucky to be in a tournament, nevermind getting close to winning one, since with the golden generation from 2000 to 2006 we had already been in as many tournaments as in our entire history before 2000. I think a lot of people miss out on what Cristiano has done for Portugal because there was the golden generation before him getting to the latter stages of tournaments already. The truth is Portugal is yet to miss a tournament since he's been around. Obviously there's more to it than Cristiano but he's certainly done his part in that feat.
And not only Portugal has made every tournament but the only tournament we underperformed in since he's been around was the 2014 World Cup and that was a tournament that pretty much everything went against us. Cristiano had a very bad knee injury and he shouldn't have even played at all, we got a tough group, the other great portuguese player of this generation in Pepe got sent off and missed the 2 games that pretty much got us knocked out and Fábio Coentrão got injured too forcing us to play a back 6 of Beto, João Pereira, Ricardo Costa, Bruno Alves, André Almeida and Miguel Veloso in the big game vs the US which says it all.
Cristiano made the team of the tournament back in 2004, he scored the winning penalty to take us to our second ever World Cup semifinal in 2006 and with Henry, Zidane and Figo there with 21 years old he was the most dangerous man on the pitch in that semifinal too. He might not have had one insane tournament like other all time greats have but other all time greats haven't done what he's done either and I don't believe that if you put any other player in history in his place Portugal would have had better results than we've had in the time he's been around.
I wouldn't call their NT performances lackluster. Both are good for their NT; they aren't as dominant though. The international game is different than the club game.
What about 2010? You failed to score in 3 out of 4 games and both Ronaldo and Portugal were mostly honking.
Just based on stats 75 goals in 143 games and getting Portugal to every tournament in his time is a great achievement. Also, bare in mind Ronaldo (like Messi) has always been by far and away the main man with massive demands and pressures at club level that he probably comes into tournaments burned out. He's had some mixed results in tournaments but it's not the disaster the pro-Messi/anti-Ronaldo brigade try to make out.
Euro 2004 he was great and one of the best players in the tournament as a 19 year old
World Cup 2006 he was great also and if not for the witch hunt he'd have been rightly recognized as one of the best 2-3 players at that cup
Euro 2008, World Cup 2010 he was pretty disappointing as were Portugal
Euro 2012 he had some massive matches and goals and had an excellent tournament
World Cup 2014 much like 2008 and 2010
Euro 2016 slow start but came up bit when Portugal needed him and was captain of their only every tournament triumph
The Messi-Ronaldo debate is tiresome to me. The agenda of everything Messi does is god-like and Ronaldo can't do anything right is tedious. I know a lot of Messi fanboys/Ronaldo haters out here who can't even reason and their argument last summer was "lets see who wins a tournament with their country this summer then that decides it" my argument was that's not fair as Argentina have won more copa america's than anyone and are favorites since Brazil are sending their B team and Portugal are 6th/7th favorites. Suffice to say I had a right laugh when Portugal won and Messi skied his penalty and cried as Chile won.
Euro 2004 he was great and one of the best players in the tournament as a 19 year old
World Cup 2006 he was great also and if not for the witch hunt he'd have been rightly recognized as one of the best 2-3 players at that cup
Euro 2008, World Cup 2010 he was pretty disappointing as were Portugal
Euro 2012 he had some massive matches and goals and had an excellent tournament
World Cup 2014 much like 2008 and 2010
Euro 2016 slow start but came up bit when Portugal needed him and was captain of their only every tournament triumph
The Messi-Ronaldo debate is tiresome to me. The agenda of everything Messi does is god-like and Ronaldo can't do anything right is tedious. I know a lot of Messi fanboys/Ronaldo haters out here who can't even reason and their argument last summer was "lets see who wins a tournament with their country this summer then that decides it" my argument was that's not fair as Argentina have won more copa america's than anyone and are favorites since Brazil are sending their B team and Portugal are 6th/7th favorites. Suffice to say I had a right laugh when Portugal won and Messi skied his penalty and cried as Chile won.
Just had a look, because I can remember virtually nothing about Portugal in that competition other than that they went out to Spain (winners) via an offside goal.
0-0 V Ivory Coast (MotM - Ronaldo)
7-0 V North Korea (MotM - Ronaldo)
0-0 V Brazil (MotM - Ronaldo)
0-1 V Spain (MotM - Xavi)
Where did you find that, Ronaldo was literally one of the worst players of the tournament that year.
Both players have had rather underwhelming international careers IMO. For me, it's not even about the trophies but more the performance levels which clearly dropped.
I believe that is fans' vote, which is basically irrelevant.
It's also on the FIFA site. You might be right though - I have no idea how they decide man of the match.
Edit - now I looked into it:
We got to the round of 16 and our second best player Nani was injured and didn't go to the World Cup. That's our third best World Cup performance ever, we're not Brazil, Germany or Argentina... Getting to the round of 16 without Nani, giving Spain a fight and only getting eliminated by an offside goal from the champions was seen as a normal result, not a negative one. I have no idea what people are expecting. We went to a World Cup with our attacking threats other than Cristiano Ronaldo being Danny, a 32 year old Liedson and Hugo Almeida... are people expecting Cristiano to play football or start doing miracles?
Either the pain of having to sit at home clouded your view somewhat or you didn't use the word literally literally. It was a disappointing World Cup for him but he was still our best player and only attacking threat.
When Argentina bored their way to the final, it was Messi who carried the team despite not scoring a single goal in the knockout stage of the World Cup.
I don't think many people believe that. Their defense and cautious football took them to the final but it's a smart and natural way to play in knockout competitions and it makes it tougher for attacking players to make the difference. I actually think Argentina's path in 2014 was very similar to Portugal's in 2016 with a very good defense and an easy draw.
The bigger difference I see between Cristiano and Messi internationally is how many big moments and goals Cristiano has compared to Messi.
Yes, I also think the set up was similar in that they prioritized to have a solid defense and rely on Messi and Di María to create something upfront. The draw was easy but the games still went tight and kind of 'ugly' wins but it served it's purpose and reached the final.
Anyway putting in context the team and expectations Portugal has compared to a nation like Argentina I also think Portugal has done very good and more than what people expects them to.
Aren't Messi and Ronaldo both their respective nations' all time top scorers at international level? You can nitpick all day, and I'm sure we all will , but it's hardly "lacklustre" IMO. Portugal and Argentina are Tier 2 nations at NT level, they aren't Germany or Brazil, who win trophies and have piles of final and semi final appearances over the past 2 decades.
, but it's hardly "lacklustre" IMO. Portugal and Argentina are Tier 2 nations at NT level, they aren't Germany or Brazil, who win trophies and have piles of final and semi final appearances over the past 2 decades.Argentina are definitely a tier 1 international team. Since 1978 they have 2 World Cup wins along with Brazil and Germany and also have been runners up twice. This is only bettered by West Germany/Germany who have 2 wins and have been runners up 3 times. Pre-Ronaldo, Portugal were no better than a tier 3 nation (at best).Aren't Messi and Ronaldo both their respective nations' all time top scorers at international level? You can nitpick all day, and I'm sure we all will
They haven't won a trophy in over 2 decades, they are the Liverpool of international football. The days of Argentina being top level are long gone. I'm meaning more in the level of players over the past period. Germany have been consistently good in terms of producing results, having been European Champions, and World Champs, Confed cup winners and having reached several semi finals in that time since Argentina won something. It's not an accident though that since Messi became the star man, Argentina have reached the world no.1 ranking for 2 seperate periods and reached 3 consecutive finals.
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