This thread is horrendous at times.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I think rest of the forum 2016.-2017. standard is doing it service so it doesn't stand out as past Ronaldo and Messi threads.
I've never seen Messi score headers like Ronaldo vs United rising above the entire defense. He can make a nothing cross head straight into the net.
I think I saw something, back in 2009 at Rome.
But anyways, it's not like he crossed it and headed at the same time. He needed someone to put the ball in there. Then we won't deny Cristiano's ability but to say he's done it single handedly... Messi gets the ball from Busquets in the freaking midfield in 2011 vs the whole Madrid's lines and ends up scoring, every teammate was watching him.
It's literally Messi vs Madrid, no one is even trying to generate space for Messi.
Who named Messi? Anyways let's be real on something, even if I agree that no one can win matches (never mind titles) single handedly.... Messi has the ability to generate a goal on his entire own (and not depending on his teammates) that Ronaldo hasn't (or he had it and he sacrifaced it). I've never seen Ronaldo scoring a goal at Madrid like the ones Messi did vs Madrid (UCL 2011), vs Getafe (2007), vs Bilbao (2015) or vs Zaragoza (2010) - just to name a few that comes to my mind - Those are the closest thing to win something single handedly. And has done it with or without the midfield.
I've never seen Messi score like Ronaldo did vs Porto in the UCL quarters in 2009, or vs Arsenal in the UCL semis or vs Atletico in the Calderon in the 2012 La Liga.... That must have been the midfield's influence too. Bullshit after bullshit to try to discredit Cristiano. Only goals that look good to you count?
Free unmarked header. Anyone can score that.
I've never seen Messi score like Ronaldo did vs Porto in the UCL quarters in 2009, or vs Arsenal in the UCL semis or vs Atletico in the Calderon in the 2012 La Liga.... That must have been the midfield's influence too. Bullshit after bullshit to try to discredit Cristiano. Only goals that look good to you count?
Messi has scored goals like that too. Vs Arsenal, vs Atletico this year, vs Leverkusen... a lot of players can score from outside of the box. Even more, I think I can say Messi has scored more goals from outside than CR7. Because the first examples I put are shots with power like Cristiano does, but Messi normally shots with precision, not power. Great goals.. now let's try to compare them to Messi vs Bilbao for example, or Messi vs Madrid dribbling past everyone
or Maradona vs England for example.They're both Tier 1 legends of the game. Messi is just a bit better.
Messi has scored goals like that too. Vs Arsenal, vs Atletico this year, vs Leverkusen... a lot of players can score from outside of the box. Even more, I think I can say Messi has scored more goals from outside than CR7. Because the first examples I put are shots with power like Cristiano does, but Messi normally shots with precision, not power. Great goals.. now let's try to compare them to Messi vs Bilbao for example, or Messi vs Madrid dribbling past everyone
Well plenty of wrong things with your comment.
1- Ronaldo has scored more from outside the box than Messi. It's incredible how assured you are of it being the other way around
2- Messi has never scored from that far away
3- Your entire fecking point was that Ronaldo didn't score without the help of the midfield. And more so, that you hadn't ever watched him doing so. Not that he didn't dribble past opponents like Messi does. Now you completely changed your whole fecking point. Now you're not looking for goals where Ronaldo has scored without the midfield assisting him but you're looking for goals where he replicates exactly what Messi (or Maradona) does. What point do you want to argue anyway? Or are you just going to keep changing the crap you say everytime it's proved wrong?
1- Ronaldo has scored more from outside the box than Messi. It's incredible how assured you are of it being the other way around
What's the source of this? I was also convinced it was the other way around.
Well plenty of wrong things with your comment.
1- Ronaldo has scored more from outside the box than Messi. It's incredible how assured you are of it being the other way around
2- Messi has never scored from that far away
3- Your entire fecking point was that Ronaldo didn't score without the help of the midfield. And more so, that you hadn't ever watched him doing so. Not that he didn't dribble past opponents like Messi does. Now you completely changed your whole fecking point. Now you're not looking for goals where Ronaldo has scored without the midfield assisting him but you're looking for goals where he replicates exactly what Messi (or Maradona) does. What point do you want to argue anyway? Or are you just going to keep changing the crap you say everytime it's proved wrong?
1- Well after a little research Ronaldo has like 5 or 6 goals more than Messi from outside of the box. We can say Ronaldo is vastly superior I guess
2 - The real far ones are just 3 ones, not like we can say Ronaldo does it all the time. The others are from a normal range.
3 - I didn't consider otuside of the box goals, even when Messi has scored a lot of them too. My point is that Ronaldo does not generate an entire goal in an actual play. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just he doesn't. Messi does.
But I'm affrad of you getting too nervous here to be honest. Besides laughing a lot.
1- Well after a little research Ronaldo has like 5 or 6 goals more than Messi from outside of the box. We can say Ronaldo is vastly superior I guess
2 - The real far ones are just 3 ones, not like we can say Ronaldo does it all the time. The others are from a normal range.
3 - I didn't consider otuside of the box goals, even when Messi has scored a lot of them too. My point is that Ronaldo does not generate an entire goal in an actual play. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just he doesn't. Messi does.
But I'm affrad of you getting too nervous here to be honest. Besides laughing a lot.
The point is not that the goals are from outside the box ffs... Outside the box or not is entirely irrelevant to the point you were arguing:
Then you cited goals where Messi got the ball in midfield and had the defense behind him to prove your point:
To which I replied with goals where Ronaldo scored after he got the ball from midfield without the midfield creating space for him. If he shot from outside the box or dribbled past 27 people is entirely irrelevant to the point YOU were arguing.
So first Ronaldo doesn't score without the midfield creating for him, now he doesn't score form actual plays?
What does 'actual play' even mean?
83 for Ronaldo, 73 for Messi. Ronaldo has scored one or two more for Madrid since and I'm sure that if you include national team goals the lead increases even more
Thanks!
Ronaldo has almost double the amount of free kicks Messi has?!?!
45 to 27. Not exactly double and he probably takes a lot more of them too considering he shoots from longer range. Not that surprising I think, it's just that in the past couple of years Ronaldo has gotten worse and Messi better at it.
Messi is also playing as a CM this season and he's still putting up crazy numbers.
He has to go deep for the ball and be playmaker for Barcelona as well as score.
Ronaldo is able to just wait near the box for service and will get chances.
He has to go deep for the ball and be playmaker for Barcelona as well as score.
Ronaldo is able to just wait near the box for service and will get chances.
Being in behind the strikers is perfect for the type of player Messi is since he can enter unmarked and shoot but it's not like what Ronaldo does is easy and could be replicated by Messi, he would struggle if he tried to play the exact role Ronaldo does for Madrid and vice versa. Also I know you guys rate this Real Madrid team a lot but Ronaldo is also part of the team so no need to use it as something to discredit him.
tbf, Ronaldo wasn't always so hopeless at free kicks and Messi wasn't always that good at taking them as he is today + he wasn't always the main free kick taker at Barca, so that's that. nothing that surprising with his free kicks record, at least not for me.
I'm more surprised with the fact that Messi scored 22 goals with his head and besides the most obvious one (against us in that CL final), I can't remember a single one.
however, I do believe Messi will have better "outside the box" record once he reach Ronaldo's age. 10 goals isn't that big difference when you take into account their age difference.
I'm more surprised with the fact that Messi scored 22 goals with his head and besides the most obvious one (against us in that CL final), I can't remember a single one.
however, I do believe Messi will have better "outside the box" record once he reach Ronaldo's age. 10 goals isn't that big difference when you take into account their age difference.
Sorry for the late reply.
I like how you take my post, say it is highly debatable. Then basically reiterate what I said in an essay.
I only used 'take' because that's what the poster I replied to was talking about... Of course he didn't carry us there all by himself. As for Éder, like I said I would be saying the same thing had we won or had we lost the final. In 2016 we simply had the extra bit of luck we missed in other years
You also said 'send' in another post. He didn't do any of that. He was actually awful at the start then had a few good games and then missed the final. Decent tournament but nothing special, but some keep elevating it merely because the rest of the team won the final.
Let's move on from this as it's not relevant to the thread at all.
I already changed the thread. I said he had scored to send us through to the final, not that he was incredible and carried us to the final, so you're arguing against yourself really. I didn't even specifically talked about his performances in Euro 2016.
In qualification he was crucial after our first loss at home vs Albania, the two winners after that and the hattrick in Armenia ended up making things look comfortable when they were nothing but that. We didn't win a single game by more than one goal. At the tournament, he was average in the first two games, fantastic vs Hungary, very good vs Croatia and Poland, although a bit too wasteful, great vs Wales and got injured in the final. This was the most defensive portuguese team I've ever watched, yet he was our best player once again. Calling it just decent is simply wrong but he certainly wasn't at his best. He was much better in 2012. But like I was saying talking about just his performances in Euro 2016 doesn't make any sense, there's been a lot more tournaments
Does that count as an assist for Busquets
He didn't even try to pass it to him. He just held it there for Messi to come and take it!You're still going on about it. And it's mostly making little sense since you're clearly very invested in glorifying the peformances (understandable in your case).
Move it to another thread.
It was the first post I even made about it. And ironically you were the one making little sense since you're clearly very interested in discreditting the performances, that's why I replied and gave my opinion on it.
And we're already in the right thread, so no need to move anything
Except that's not how that works, since they're two different players. Plenty of players succeed, some even improve and some fail. And Pedro's time in England has been nothing short of weird with the change from last season to this one, so it's hardly the greatest example to use.
Football in England and Spain is played differently, I think we can agree in that. Messi has reached his tremendous level playing in a system that noone in England plays. In England there's less protection to creative players. Players as good as him obviously wouldn't suddenly turn bad once he set foot in England but there would be different kinds of challenges for him to face. And I'm not saying he wouldn't be able to overcome them, simply that he didn't face them
And if you read what I wrote, you'd know I didn't do it... You're arguing a point I didn't even make... whilst acusing me of bias
I'll say it again. The fact that Cristiano actually moved away from his comfort zone, from a team that had just won 3 Premier Leagues in a row and reached 2 Champions League finals to a lesser team is something that is relevant to the conversation and shouldn't be ignored. I didn't say that that made him better than Messi like you just pretended. If you want I can leave you alone and you'll argue alone making your points and mine too
He's a genius tackler, a genius header of the ball, a genius leader, a genius defender, a genius counterattacker, a genius reader of the game. He's a genius at everything. Except he's obviously not. Noone is.
He'll obviously not be universively remembered as the greatest of all time either. Noone will.
Did I say he couldn't score different types of goals? Did I say he couldn't score in finals? I'm fully aware of how good he is and I didn't take any merit away from him. Cristiano has scored all kinds of goals in big games too and so have most of the all time greats
tbf, Madrid can also be considered as a comfort zone for Ronaldo, perhaps even bigger than Manchester ever was. he couldn't beat Pep's Barcelona with Carrick and Valencia so he moved to the world's richest and biggest club, not to Valencia or Fiorentina.
let's not pretend that he could have just stayed in Manchester and continued his chase for Messi with Fergie basically giving up on ever improving our midfield. he took the challenge and fair play to him, but as much as he helped Madrid, Madrid helped him as well. it's the only club in the world that had the necessary resources to assemble the team capable of challenging Barca and attract the best managers. if he stayed in his "comfort zone" in Manchester, I doubt we would have added 3 champions league even with him in our team. Barcelona just outclassed us and their level looked unreachable to us, even with Fergie at helm. without couple of champions league trophies, his individual achievements wouldn't look as great as they look now.
what I find odd when some people call Barcelona a comfort zone for Messi is that they only pay attention to positive things, like the most obvious fact that he played with Xavi and Iniesta. he played with them which means everything else was also perfect, right? well it wasn't. what is rarely mentioned by those same people is club's suicidal transfer policy, the fact he never played under the manager of Fergie/Mourinho/Ancelotti calibre, persistance of playing Mascherano and similar players in defence etc. Barcelona always had obvious flaws and holes in their team but they were simply masked.
to think that staying in the same club for several years always results in best possible outcome for player isn't true at all. sometimes it means you have to endure crisis, which is exactly what is happening to Barca atm.
let's not pretend that he could have just stayed in Manchester and continued his chase for Messi with Fergie basically giving up on ever improving our midfield. he took the challenge and fair play to him, but as much as he helped Madrid, Madrid helped him as well. it's the only club in the world that had the necessary resources to assemble the team capable of challenging Barca and attract the best managers. if he stayed in his "comfort zone" in Manchester, I doubt we would have added 3 champions league even with him in our team. Barcelona just outclassed us and their level looked unreachable to us, even with Fergie at helm. without couple of champions league trophies, his individual achievements wouldn't look as great as they look now.
what I find odd when some people call Barcelona a comfort zone for Messi is that they only pay attention to positive things, like the most obvious fact that he played with Xavi and Iniesta. he played with them which means everything else was also perfect, right? well it wasn't. what is rarely mentioned by those same people is club's suicidal transfer policy, the fact he never played under the manager of Fergie/Mourinho/Ancelotti calibre, persistance of playing Mascherano and similar players in defence etc. Barcelona always had obvious flaws and holes in their team but they were simply masked.
to think that staying in the same club for several years always results in best possible outcome for player isn't true at all. sometimes it means you have to endure crisis, which is exactly what is happening to Barca atm.
You're kind of deviating or missing the point of what people refers when saying Messi is in a comfort zone playing. Barcelona has been a pretty dominant team, with the help of Messi mind you, and with a core of players that would conquer a world cup and two euros. So while I disagree with people trying to downplay Messi's achievments with Barcelona because he 'happens to play for the best team ever' it can't be denied Ronaldo has proven himself in two different leagues and into different circumstances, we could even add that he has proven himself with Portugal. Also it's not like he arrived Real Madrid in the state of the current Real Madrid.
One things for sure Ronnie is the better tax dodger, Messi has been sloppy in this respect.
I do think we give Ronaldo less credit than he deserves, in general footballing sense he isnt Messi but he still has terrific understanding of the game, knows when and how to pass when it's clear, be it crosses, lay backs, normal passes and his dribbking isnt what it was but he still can pull off some nice flicks etc. But on those aspects, Messi is just in an entire different universe.
He was leaving us in 2007 when we had the best team in europe and messi pretty much picks the manager at barca.
If Ronaldo has proven himself with Portugal, Messi has proven himself with Argentina more. He has brought them to 2 Copa America finals, and 1 World Cup final. Ronaldo has taken Portugal into one Euro semifinal, and one Euro final.
Just because Ronaldo's teammates got lucky and won a final in which France dominated from start to finish, with a solo goal from Ronaldo's substitute Eder, doesn't mean Ronaldo proven himself more with Portugal. It doesn't make any sense.
Proving yourself in more leagues doesn't make any sense either. Messi scored 91 goals in a single year, he doesn't have to prove anything. Football is football. You take peak Messi and put him in any league and he'll still be the best player in the world and make all this look easy at times.
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Portugal aren't Argentina. The Euros aren't Copa America. Reaching an Euro final with Portugal is not the same level of difficulty as reaching a Copa America final with Argentina. Has Arbeloa outperformed them too? It's not as simple as looking at how far their teams reached...
And Cristiano was big back in 2004 too, got into the team of the tournament at 19. In 2006 too
That's a rubbish argument when you look at the teams Portugal faced on the way to the final. I don't see Italy, Germany and the likes. The strong teams were all on France's side of the draw. They played the semifinal against Walles FFS.
Argentina and Portugal are of similar level.
fully agree and I wasn't trying to do that, btw. for me that's a nice bonus but that's it, this is the part where you (or me or any other poster) should finish the sentence.
"Ronaldo has proven himself in two different leagues" - yes, that's a fact. but it shouldn't be followed by something like "There are doubts over Messi making it in EPL.", like it was a case in Messi's main thread.
sure, it can be used to boost Ronaldo's achievements, but it can't be used to highlight something that Messi never did - he just didn't have to do it and nobody have the money to buy him anyway. if there were certain indicators that players of his build and height play badly in EPL, then maybe it would make sense to debate whether he would make it there or not. but it clearly isn't case and all we can do is guess (and not even that tbf).
2004 - Spain, England, Netherlands
2008 - strong Turkey, Germany
2012 - Netherlands, Germany, Spain
2016 - strong Croatia
Argentina played against Ecuador and the US... and you complain about Wales? In the last 2 semifinals to reach the Copa America final, Argentina won 4-0 and 6-1.... those are easy games. Beating Wales was anything but easy. We beat the best croatian team in years who were heavily favoured against us by every betting agency, the best polish team in years and a very good welsh team. Yes, we got lucky with the draw but it was still a great achievement to get there
In 2004, others were the stars of Portugal. Ronaldo was a young player on the rise. He certainly didn't lead Portugal to the final. Back in 2004 Deco was Portugal's best player. It's basically almost the same generation that made the semis in 2000, with Nuno Gomes, Figo, Costinha and others too. Do you credit Ronaldo for the semifinal in 2000 too?
In 2008 they made the quarterfinal, which is pretty much where you expect Portugal to get at the Euros. Not a particularly great accomplishment.
In 2012 they were very good and Ronaldo played well. Nothing to add.
In 2016, they had an easy draw. Strong Croatia, yes, in a game in which they were dominated and Croatia missed a lot of chances. And it's Croatia, plenty of teams as good or better than Croatia in South America, like Chile, Colombia, and Brazil for example. The rest of the opponents were on the easy side, like Hungary, and Walles, teams that barely make final tournaments at World Cup and Euros, novices at this level.
If you add context to those issues, you see that there are a lot of circumstances that make these things possible. It's not Ronaldo that 'carried' Portugal to the title. Let's not forget that they managed to end up 3rd in a group that had Hungary and Iceland in it.
That's not quite it, Ronaldo has won a Euro, played the final in another edition and reached the semifinal in another (were they got eliminated by Spain who later won the thing). His national team has also reached semifinals in a World Cup and bar Brazil 2014 they usually do pretty well to their standards.
So for a nation like Portugal is a huge achievement and they're also playing Confederations Cup this very season for the first time, so yeah. It's not like Messi has been bad or isn't a proven player for his country but to me Ronaldo edges him having won an Euro. Is also more of an achievement given Euros aren't as often as Copa America, they had two in a row and were even some jokes about an upcoming Copa America: Christmas Special to be held in December in Rosario, Argentina; featuring nations like Alaska xD.
Also that Ronaldo has proven himself in different leagues and still became very successful is not something hard to grasp is just a fact. He performed for Manchester United when Premier League was at the very top of every other league, and after moving to Real Madrid things were rough but has become successful as well. I'm sure Messi could perform in any other team very well but the thing is it really hasn't happened and how much different it would be for how he plays in Barcelona would be speculating. With Ronaldo is not speculation he has already done it.
Oh, so your argument is Ronaldo has won a Euro? Even if he didn't do anything to help in the final? It just goes to prove that it's a team sport and that you can win a title by missing most of the deciding game, and you can lose by being the best player on your team. Hell, Ronaldo not playing proved to be good for Portugal, considering the player who took his place brought the win.
Copa America happens once every 4 years, just like the Euros. It's not much between them in terms of quality of the teams. Teams like Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile and Columbia would fare well at the Euros. Euros might have a slight edge, but only a slight one.
I don't care Ronaldo has managed to do it in different leagues. It's a fact with no extrapolation value attached to it. It is speculation also to say Ronaldo would have done as good as Messi in La Liga prior to 2009.
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