Thanks guys.
Messi retires from Argentina.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
How isn't it obvious that Messi needs Barca to play at the absurdly high level he does in his club seasons? If that wasn't the case, Argentina wouldn't even have 1 final defeat let alone 4. Blaming the defenders even though they conceded nothing in 90 mins for 3 of the finals is ridiculous. Blaming other attackers is fair, but to an extent cause why hasn't he himself, a goal a game barca superstar found the net?
He'll let the others go through the hassle of qualifying before coming out of retirement in 2 years for the World Cup. Not a chance a 30/31 year old Messi will be sat at home while Argentina are at a WC.
Because football is a team game.
So he does need a team like Barca?
Maybe its better for Argentina... they played pretty good against Chile without him.
The members of the 1986 National Team. Maradona couldn't be there.
The #DontGoLio poster in the middle.
The reason for not conceding is the same as the reason for not scoring in any of those finals... Arg's starting lineups in those three finals:
2014 WC Final
GK-Romero
DF-Zabaleta
DF-Demichelis
DF-Garay
DF-Rojo
MF-Pérez (Gago 86')
MF-Mascherano
MF-Biglia
FW-Messi (c)
FW-Higuaín (Palacio 86')
FW-Lavezzi (Agüero 46')
2015 CA Final
GK-Romero
DF-Zabaleta
DF-Demichelis
DF-Otamendi
DF-Rojo
MF-Biglia
MF-Mascherano
MF-Pastore (Banega 81')
FW-Messi (c)
FW-Agüero (Higuaín 74')
FW-Di María + (Lavezzi 29')
2016 CA Centenario Final
GK-Romero
DF-Mercado
DF-Otamendi
DF-Funes Mori
DF-Rojo (off 43')
MF-Biglia
MF-Mascherano
MF-Banega (Lamela 111')
FW-Messi (c)
FW-Higuaín (Agüero 70')
FW-Di María (Kranevitter 57')
In 2014 it was all about stopping Germany playing (a very defensive MF trio) and in 2016 they subbed the ineffective and quite possibly unfit Di María for another holding mid (!) and waited to put on Lamela when there was less than 10 minutes to go and even then for Banega, not say Biglia. Only in 2015 did they actually not field three holding players but only two -- if Di María doesn't injure himself before the half hour mark then that would've been an Argentina worthy of the "amazing attacking players" throwaway as there were actually more than three attacking players on the pitch at the same time for once.
Defensively Arg were very good in all these games (even though still shaky and conceding good chances to the opponents usually the last-ditch defending worked), but offensively there just wasn't any plan beyond "run forward with the ball". No build-up from the back either, which means the forwards rarely get the ball in areas of the pitch where they can immediately be dangerous. I disagree in spirit with all the people knocking Higuaín (even though he did really epically screw up two chances that are sitters for him) and other Arg players off for not performing, because while Messi was among the better performers in two of these finals he eventually also didn't manage to do it and they're just relieving him of any responsibility which is of course ridiculous. But it is true that no-one apart from defensive players (Romero, Garay, Otamendi, Mascherano) actually stepped up in these games and that's not just a coincidence it's a logical, tactical consequence of their approach.
Messi isn't Maradona and, at any rate, this Argentina isn't as functional as that one was.
Every player on the planet needs a team, this isn't the Maradona era, with more money, technology and advanced tactics going into the game you'd have to be an alien to be able to consistently every game single handledly win matches, especially in an international tournament where he isn't fully accustomed to the movement or play style of his teammates. Man-marking is a huge factor in ensuring that.
Using the international football logic - I guess Ronaldo, Ibra, Iniesta, Lewandowski, Martial, Pogba, Neymar just to name a few are all shit footballers too.
Messi is an incredible goal scorer but above all he is a playmaker, probably one of the best to ever play, you can't expect him to beat a very good Chile side on his own. Yes Argentina have very good top class players, but no, they are no-where near as effective for their national team, Aguero for Argentina is wank, Higuain is wank, Di Maria is wank. Dybala who most will agree deserved to be there the most didn't even go. His individual moments of brilliance got them through most of the tight games in the World Cup, only for Palacio to squander an incredible chance. What if that went in? Would people finally accept we are witnessing the greatest of all time? Of course not, they would then argue that he didn't win the World Cup earlier or that he wasn't dominant enough.
Maradona was incredible, but what he did is constantly over estimated, his Argentina team wasn't as shit as everyone made out, he cheated to win and admitted it ffs and lastly football wasn't as advanced as it is now.
Messi when playing for Argentina not only has to play against the opposition, he has to play against the expectation of the fans, he has to play against the corrupt Argentinian Fa and he has to play with a bunch of top, top players who are mismanaged and who don't look like they give a feck when they represent their country.
You can tell he wants it so bad, the guy was balling his eyes out on national television despite the fact that his country's fans were threatening his family ffs, he loves the country and has given it his all. He owes them nothing. They've just lost the greatest player who IMO has ever lived, now it's their responsibility to convince him to come back.
Here's hoping he gets one last chance in 2018 to finally end the doubts. GOAT.
Round of applause for that last comment. BUT I have to say that if people like Lavezzi goes to the tournament being a chinese league player, it's because of Messi. There's a little "Messi's friends" group involving Aguero and Banega too.
This is a picture posted by Aguero's brother yesterday. Messi's still with the NT clothes on
And this one is taken later, driving to Rosario.
This is a picture posted by Aguero's brother yesterday. Messi's still with the NT clothes on
And this one is taken later, driving to Rosario.
Well jokingly aside Argentina isn't really a bad team, they are just not as good as Germany in WC, and abit unlucky against Chile having loss 2 final in a row in penalty shootout. They are still a team with many good individuals and with realistic chance to win something.He just needs a team.
That is not a team.
And they didn't score a goal in 380 minutes playing finals. We are not a good or a bad team. We are not a team. We are a group of individuals, and most of them cannot handle the pressure of playing for Argentina.
While I don't wish to dispute anyone's point of him not getting support while playing for his country, these snapshots of him being surrounded by defenders doesn't really help in conveying your point.
I can find similar snapshots of the opposition team all around Nani when he's playing well or Ronaldo in Madrid. Didn't stop them from winning championships.
I can find similar snapshots of the opposition team all around Nani when he's playing well or Ronaldo in Madrid. Didn't stop them from winning championships.
There are compilations of Messi during this match. You can find videos of Messi taking the ball in the center of the field and trying to run past 4 or 5 chileans with no teammates moving around or asking for the ball.
I know I am changing the subject here, but at the end of the day Messi himself missed the penalty. As for what we were discussing, yeah you may be right but those snapshots do not do a good job of proving one's point.
Yeah, he can fail. I won't kill him for that. It's a high pressure moment and I think he tried to make it as hard as possible being Bravo the keeper (someone who knows him). He was pretty nervous. But well, even Maradona failed in Pks. The snapshot does justice to what happened in the game, I'm just talking about this game, not in general.
So Argentina are basically the South American version of England?
Round of applause for that last comment. BUT I have to say that if people like Lavezzi goes to the tournament being a chinese league player, it's because of Messi. There's a little "Messi's friends" group involving Aguero and Banega too.
This is a picture posted by Aguero's brother yesterday. Messi's still with the NT clothes on
And this one is taken later, driving to Rosario.
If my memories are good, Lavezzi & Messi both come from Rosario. I understand Messi has advised Barcelona to acquire the clubber Lavezzi last winter LOL.
Pastore is another issue: always injured.
It's something Brazil learned a long time ago. Simply playin your best individuals isn't always a recipe for success.
Aguero and Messi are best friends arnt they?
Everybody needs a good team
I don't know why you are trying to say or get at? Barcelona have better players than Argentina, so it's no surprise he does better there:
Barca isn't just a good team, its the most talented group of individuals put together that I've ever seen in club football which has led to a ridiculous dominance in the European club game. Take him out of that scenario he's been found wanting. Not too many of the greats have been in position to play with so many all time greats in the same side for such a long time.
Argentina are like England. They are just not very good as a unit. I used to think that Messi just couldn't perform for them but then I actually stated watching their games and nearly all the games I've watched he has played well and been one of the better players on the pitch.
Aguero and Di Maria are often terrible. I don't understand how Aguero can be one of the best strikers in the world at City but really under par with Argentina. Di Maria is always poor as well and gives the ball away constantly. They just don't gel for some reason.
Also he hasn't been found wanting. Do you actually watch them play? Losing in the finals isn't being found wanting ffs. That's falling short. If they were getting knocked out in the group stages etc...then you have an argument.
Not to sure I understand the whole advanced tactics theory. There isn't all that much advanced about how most of these teams play nowadays. Every player needs a team, but the so called greatest player of all time should need to play in a team that's supremely dominant to play like a player that's worthy of that tag. outside a team like that, he's been found wanting.
Ronaldo like Messi has been disappointing in the international arena. Lewa and Ibra play for countries that basically don't count. Iniesta and Neymar have been great in international football, certainly matched their club football levels, martial is a baby as so is Pogba.
Nope, because he just wasn't incredible at the world cup. The world cup wasn't at all about him to an extent where some people were surprised that he won the golden ball. He had zero goal contributions in the last 3 rounds of games and had 0 goals in the knockouts, I'm sorry but flashes of brilliance in first round games doesn't matter all that much. He is after all, in the greatest of all time argument with players who regularly did it, against the best in the world when it mattered most.
What Maradona did was incredible and some are trying to understate it for some agenda or another. Out of the 7 goals they scored in the last three rounds of fixtures, he had a direct hand in 5 of them(scoring 4 with 2 downright individual efforts). That's how you inspire a team to a title. Their tactic was to win the ball back and basically get the ball to him. All they tried to do was not concede goals(neither did messis Argentina) but they needed him to get them the goals.
What are these advancements that the game has made? advancements to an extent that a winger in 1992 could be a starting central midfielder for a 2011 CL finalists?
Doesn't matter how bad he wants it, he's failed to inspire them to great things. He's failed to look inspirational in a losing effort too which is the least he could be doing if his team was that bad. Then the debate of whether he indeed is the greatest player ever might not exist.
Advanced tactics in the sense that the sport isn't the same sport it was back then, the globalization, technology and knowledge injected into the sport from all over the world has resulted in the sport becoming much different. Players are fitter, quicker and better managed. For example, Tiki-Taka is a certain example of a new, fresh understanding of the sport, the sport is always evolving.
He doesn't need to play in a supremely dominant team at all, he just needs a team who consists of players who offer him an outlet, which is funny as you claim Lewa and Ibra play for teams that shouldn't be considered due to the team's supposed lack of talent? You must rate a team on the size of their brand rather than that of their performances on the pitch then as it's a common consensus that some top, top Argentinian players don't perform for their team, it's why their fans all seem to want a mini exodus to an extent. So big name= good for national team? Or could the fact that Argentina is actually a team with a very poor defence and incredible attack who extremely underperform still be something to beat Messi with?
He wasn't incredible at the World Cup? Funny statement, lets look at stats. He was first in created goal-scoring chances and first by a country mile in regards to successful dribbles, 46, Robben who was second was miles behind at 29. This agreement that he wasn't impressive is due to the fact that his brilliance has become expected. This is all while playing in an under-performing Argentinian team, apart from ADM, Mascherano and Messi, the first of whom was removed due to injury. He scored 4 goals in the competition, which ranked him as the 3rd top scorer in the competition.
Now lets look at Maradona's unbelievable run in his world cup, shall we? His successful dribbles was slighty higher than Messi's at 50 albeit playing football at a time that wasn't as difficult, whilst scoring 5 goals, only one more than Messi. Maradona's teammate, Jorge Valdano scored 4, including one in the final. 4 goals from an individual? That is more than the rest of the Argentinian players in 2014 apart from Messi combined, 3. Not to add, that England game, cracker second goal, how would that have turned out if he didn't blatantly cheat for his first though? Game could have been a lot different, same way Messi's legacy could have been different if Palacio wasn't a mug of a footballer.
Argentina scored 7 goals at the world cup in 2014, Messi was directly involved in 5 (4 goals and an assist). Maradona was involved in 10 out of his team's 14 goals. That's 71.4%. Messi was involved in 5 of his team's 7 which funnily enough is also 71.4%, they individually were directly involved in the exact same percentage of their team's goals, whilst Messi was playing with teammates who were much less of a goal scoring threat than that of Maradona's 'rubbish' side?
He is the best, Maradona is a close second but winning the tournament with close to identical statistics, but just comparing the two Argentinian sides shows Maradona's magic run was unbelievable no doubt, but not what everyone seems to think of it. He hasn't ever scored in a GF, and only once in a semi-final so the notion of Messi not being as useful in the latter stages in 2014 is also void.
PS: As an added bonus, the rubbish Argentinian side who were obviously single-handedly carried by Maradona, managed to make it into the final in the next World Cup, a tournament in which Maradona, amassed a grand total of 0 goals and only 2 assists.
To claim Maradona is the greatest of all time due to one international tournament where his importance was vastly exaggerated, his statistics were just about matched by Messi and heights which he never managed to achieve again, both for his club and his country is unacceptable imo. Messi has proven it in the Champions league time and time again. His performance against us in the 2011 final was incredible and their win can be solely be acknowledged as a result of his absolute brilliance, for example.
Not to add, Maradona is a cheat and if speculation is to believe Messi plays with constant pain in most games.
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Possession football has always existed. It wasn't just born out of some genius tactical advancement in the sport, it also came about cause the technical level of the barca team has been significantly higher than that of opposition teams. See how pep failed to replicate its dominance when coaching Bayern? Being beat by old school tactics the likes of simeone and ancelotti employ? Do you think Giggs was fitter in '11 than he was in 92? Cause back then the game hadn't gone to far from maradona's prime.Advanced tactics in the sense that the sport isn't the same sport it was back then, the globalization, technology and knowledge injected into the sport from all over the world has resulted in the sport becoming much different. Players are fitter, quicker and better managed. For example, Tiki-Taka is a certain example of a new, fresh understanding of the sport, the sport is always evolving.
He doesn't need to play in a supremely dominant team at all, he just needs a team who consists of players who offer him an outlet, which is funny as you claim Lewa and Ibra play for teams that shouldn't be considered due to the team's supposed lack of talent? You must rate a team on the size of their brand rather than that of their performances on the pitch then as it's a common consensus that some top, top Argentinian players don't perform for their team, it's why their fans all seem to want a mini exodus to an extent. So big name= good for national team? Or could the fact that Argentina is actually a team with a very poor defence and incredible attack who extremely underperform still be something to beat Messi with?
He wasn't incredible at the World Cup? Funny statement, lets look at stats. He was first in created goal-scoring chances and first by a country mile in regards to successful dribbles, 46, Robben who was second was miles behind at 29. This agreement that he wasn't impressive is due to the fact that his brilliance has become expected. This is all while playing in an under-performing Argentinian team, apart from ADM, Mascherano and Messi, the first of whom was removed due to injury. He scored 4 goals in the competition, which ranked him as the 3rd top scorer in the competition.
Now lets look at Maradona's unbelievable run in his world cup, shall we? His successful dribbles was slighty higher than Messi's at 50 albeit playing football at a time that wasn't as difficult, whilst scoring 5 goals, only one more than Messi. Maradona's teammate, Jorge Valdano scored 4, including one in the final. 4 goals from an individual? That is more than the rest of the Argentinian players in 2014 apart from Messi combined, 3. Not to add, that England game, cracker second goal, how would that have turned out if he didn't blatantly cheat for his first though? Game could have been a lot different, same way Messi's legacy could have been different if Palacio wasn't a mug of a footballer.
Argentina scored 7 goals at the world cup in 2014, Messi was directly involved in 5 (4 goals and an assist). Maradona was involved in 10 out of his team's 14 goals. That's 71.4%. Messi was involved in 5 of his team's 7 which funnily enough is also 71.4%, they individually were directly involved in the exact same percentage of their team's goals, whilst Messi was playing with teammates who were much less of a goal scoring threat than that of Maradona's 'rubbish' side?
He is the best, Maradona is a close second but winning the tournament with close to identical statistics, but just comparing the two Argentinian sides shows Maradona's magic run was unbelievable no doubt, but not what everyone seems to think of it. He hasn't ever scored in a GF, and only once in a semi-final so the notion of Messi not being as useful in the latter stages in 2014 is also void.
PS: As an added bonus, the rubbish Argentinian side who were obviously single-handedly carried by Maradona, managed to make it into the final in the next World Cup, a tournament in which Maradona, amassed a grand total of 0 goals and only 2 assists.
To claim Maradona is the greatest of all time due to one international tournament where his importance was vastly exaggerated, his statistics were just about matched by Messi and heights which he never managed to achieve again, both for his club and his country is unacceptable imo. Messi has proven it in the Champions league time and time again. His performance against us in the 2011 final was incredible and their win can be solely be acknowledged as a result of his absolute brilliance, for example.
Not to add, Maradona is a cheat and if speculation is to believe Messi plays with constant pain in most games.
Are you honestly trying to say that Sweden and Poland are comparable to Argentina? If you are, then I won't argue that point.
You can keep your fancy world cup stats. I'll stick to a few that I just find quite frankly far more significant than any dribbling stat. 0 goals and 1 assist in the most important 4 games of a world cup. 0 career world cup knock out goals. Yes, zero, zilch, nothing at all. Imagine him going the whole of the CL knockouts without a goal, unbelievable isn't it? Well that's what he's done for Argentina. You can't put his world cup contributions anwhere near the likes of maradona, infact, you can't do that with many of the players mentioned in GOAT conversations.
How can't you comprehend that Maradona, even though being the best player at the tournament before the knockouts, kicked it up a gear in the knockouts. Btw 4 goals 1 assist isn't 5 goals 5 assists no matter how you try to mince it.
The traffic signals of BA asking Leo not to leave.
Fans made this in front of a Leo's house: "If the world is against you, We are against the world".
53K people confirmed their assistance to the manifestation on july the 2nd, in order to ask Messi not to go.
Except Tiki-Taka is much more than "possession football", it was around to a certain extent, but improved upon, which adds further strength to my argument that the sport is always evolving and getting better. Also, Pep's lack of dominance with Bayern could be down to the fact that he didn't have a certain Argentian scoring 70+ goals for him in an individual season, maybe?
I didn't say Sweden and Poland were comparable to Argentina at all, I simply suggested that just because their players are considered to be superior by no means does it mean they're a better team. Iceland are inferior to England who have many star players, but were beaten, for example.
You claim my world cup stats are irrelevant but it's the only thing we can argue, as bar one incredible World Cup Maradona has offered nothing else to suggest he is even close to Messi, he had an underwhelming second World Cup and his club peformances aren't fit to lace Messi's boots tbf.
Maradona scored 2 against England, one which was a handball. 2 against Belgium, which was brilliant and 0 in the final. Not to add, he wasn't even the top scorer of the competition and was only one goal above Valdano. Furthermore, him being "clearly the best player before the knock-outs" is an overstatement, he managed a single goal. If it wasn't for Messi's goals early on in the competition, Argentina's lack of contribution from their other players would have ensured an early exit from the competition.
We can compare their contributions though, as they were the exact same percentage, whilst Maradona played for a team that was much more effective from an attacking standpoint. A single player outscored the whole of the 2014 Argentian squad apart from Messi combined.
Infact, I would go as far to say Maradona's performance in '86 isn't even the best. Platini's was arguably better, does that mean Platini was superior to the above to mentioned players too?
You're right, 4 goals and 1 assist isn't the same as 5 goals and 5 assists, great observation. What is the same though is the contribution given the performances of the rest of his team, both 71%. So is one tournament, which Maradona could never manage to emulate, in which Messi matched in terms of contribution to his team, enough to justify his status as GOAT despite the fact that Messi makes him look bang average in regards to club football? I guess Platini and good ol' Gary are up there, better than Messi too.
Edit: Oh and lets not forget, his handball although allowed shouldn't really be considered as it was cheating, so given that he scored the same amount of goals as Messi, meaning his contribution to his team was less than that of Messi's in an Argentinian team which scored double that of the '14 team.
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You claim my world cup stats are irrelevant but it's the only thing we can argue, as bar one incredible World Cup Maradona has offered nothing else to suggest he is even close to Messi, he had an underwhelming second World Cup and his club peformances aren't fit to lace Messi's boots tbf.
Maradona scored 2 against England, one which was a handball. 2 against Belgium, which was brilliant and 0 in the final. Not to add, he wasn't even the top scorer of the competition and was only one goal above Valdano. Furthermore, him being "clearly the best player before the knock-outs" is an overstatement, he managed a single goal. If it wasn't for Messi's goals early on in the competition, Argentina's lack of contribution from their other players would have ensured an early exit from the competition.
We can compare their contributions though, as they were the exact same percentage, whilst Maradona played for a team that was much more effective from an attacking standpoint. A single player outscored the whole of the 2014 Argentian squad apart from Messi combined.
Infact, I would go as far to say Maradona's performance in '86 isn't even the best. Platini's was arguably better, does that mean Platini was superior to the above to mentioned players too?
You're right, 4 goals and 1 assist isn't the same as 5 goals and 5 assists, great observation. What is the same though is the contribution given the performances of the rest of his team, both 71%. So is one tournament, which Maradona could never manage to emulate, in which Messi matched in terms of contribution to his team, enough to justify his status as GOAT despite the fact that Messi makes him look bang average in regards to club football? I guess Platini and good ol' Gary are up there, better than Messi too.
Edit: Oh and lets not forget, his handball although allowed shouldn't really be considered as it was cheating, so given that he scored the same amount of goals as Messi, meaning his contribution to his team was less than that of Messi's in an Argentinian team which scored double that of the '14 team.
Read it and weep. Greatest & most memorable individual performance in International football history despite taking an absolute battering every game while Messi disappeared after the group stages when it mattered most.
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Read it and weep. Greatest & most memorable individual performance in International football history despite taking an absolute battering every game while Messi disappeared after the group stages when it mattered most.
Not only does your link not work, but you've went from comparing one tournament which was a very weak argument in the first place, to one individual game now?
Messi might of disappeared in the latter stages of the tournament, but he still got them through the early stages of the competion. Using that logic Maradona disappeared at the start of the tournament and if it wasn't for his rubbish Argentinian team he wouldn't have even made it to the latter stages to shine, funny that huh.Also, is this the same as how Maradona disappeared in the next 2 World Cups? Or is that overlooked because it would taint your godly view of Maradona. Went from basing the GOAT down to performances that lasted roughly a month in one competition to an individual game ffs.
Platini was just as good in the World Cup, whilst also having better stats to boot in the competition. Platini > Maradona? I suppose then.
Maradona dissapeared in the Playoffs and if it wasn't for Gareca, we wouldn't have been in Mexico 1986
Wait, how did Maradona disappear in the group stages? These arguments are getting ridiculous by the moment.
Despite his team supposedly being useless and him single-handedly carrying them all tournament, he seems to have struggled in play-offs as IFC mentioned and didn't do a whole lot in the early stages of the competition. A whole one goal. But you know, Maradona did everything, not like his incredible second half to the tournament wouldn't even be a possibility if it wasn't for that "terrible" Argentina side stepping up at the beginning of the tournament.
Götze is a better player than Messi, if we follow these wonderful logic. Why don't United bid for Götze?
Messi fanboys
Assisted all 3(!!!) goals in the opener against South Korea
Grabbed the all important equaliser against Italy with a superb volley
Assisted Burruchaga's dagger goal against Bulgaria.
Because he didn't inflate his goalscoring stats against fodder that means he was a no-show apparently.
Assist means that his team finished their chances though, that's impossible, Maradona did it all himself?
Using similar logic to you, Maradona is so good he shouldn't need to rely on his team to score the goals essential for qualifying to the next round, he should have done it all himself.
Maradona fanboys ffs, can't even justify the whole one month of Maradona's career that people seem to remember.
You seem to be going in circles instead of directly dissecting what I've said. He played in a more efficient Argentina team, who scored double the goals of the '14 team. Who had an individual player, not named Maradona who scored more goals than every other Argentine player at the '14 World Cup bar Messi. Above all, statistically was involved in less of his team's goals than Messi was, who seems to play for such a good Argentina team. How is it that Maradona single handedly won the World Cup yet when compared to Messi in '14 was less of a factor, statistically speaking, maybe it wasn't such an individual effort as accepted?
Don't give me that, "stats aren't everything" bollocks either, as there are a million players who run around, yet have no end-product. If we were comparing players on how much they run instead of their efficiency Raheem Sterling would be one of the world's best players.
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We aren't comparing Higuain with Valdano here: it's not just about goals. It's one of the silliest lines of argument I've seen on this forum. Football games don't end up 104-102 - pure productivity analyses like these for creative players are lunacy. As is the suggestion that Platini's Euro '84 trumps Maradona's World Cup '86 - again a solely stats-based argument. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Maradona consistently ripped the opposition apart, time and time again, in every game, throughout that tournament. Platini - whose tournament was probably the second greatest of all time - didn't have that level of sustained dominance in his locker. It wasn't simply a few seconds of effort in a few games that can be distilled into your statistical analysis.
It's quite tragic how some here have to grossly underrate and undervalue/ignore the achievements of another great, and take an openly blinkered and heavily biased view, just so they can unfairly exaggerate the stature of their favourite/preferred player.
I mean we are talking about two greats here, who have done extraordinary things and both naturally have their set of fortes and blemishes - both in terms of their character and with regards to their portfolio. There is no need to go overboard in the appraisal of one of em, or pettily downplay the achievements of the other. I certainly don't think it's clear-cut who's better and ultimately it boils down to subjective preferences.
It's quite a shame how Maradona's time at Napoli has almost gone unmentioned or has taken the backseat throughout the thread here, if I'm not wrong. Going by this thread alone, it seems as though the only thing Maradona has to show for his entire career is that 1986 WC and nothing else. There is a reason why the likes of Garrincha and Kempes aren't exactly being heralded at the very peak of the pantheon of greats, despite boasting similar-ish one-man displays (at a lower level) for their national sides during the WC, winning both the Golden Ball and the Golden Boot in 1962 & 1978 respectively. It was nothing short of remarkable what Maradona achieved at Napoli and he did it during Serie A's heyday, where competition was at it's fiercest and disparity between the quality of teams was significantly and relatively less, than the more 'stacked' club sides that we are seeing currently. We are talking about an era littered with an unprecedented number greats such as Platini, Scirea, van Basten, Gullit, Matthäus, Brehme, Passarella, Rijkaard, Bergomi, Baresi, Maldini, Boniek etc strutting their stuff in the Serie A in some truly top-notch sides. Yet Diego Maradona managed to inspire his team to two Serie A titles and two runner-up finishes. Balu made a great post on the sheer competitiveness and the unrivalled quality of the Serie A during that particular era and in particular, the incredible impact of Maradona on Napoli.
Of course, we need to take certain things into context as well. Napoli, nor Argentina for that matter, were average sides and had some goodish-excellent players (Ferrara, Alemao, Careca etc & Ruggeri, Brown, Valdano, Burruchaga etc) with cohesive tactical set-ups and were well-drilled sides as a whole. So Maradona didn't just single-handedly carry a bunch of donkeys as it's made out to be at times, and he had some well-made platforms to exhibit his talents, but there is obviously no denying the fact that Maradona's influence elevated both Argentina and Napoli to levels, where they simply had no business being at. Tbf, the likes of Sampdoria and Verona (relative minnows) won their only Serie A titles during this very time frame, which does diminish the 'revolutionary aspect' of Maradona's feats with Napoli. But at the same time, it also serves to show the competitiveness of the Serie A (with no lack of quality top sides unlike the PL last season) and also the quality that was spread fairly evenly throughout the league as opposed to a clear few favourites. You don't have to look any further than Balu's post above to see that what Maradona did with Napoli was nothing short of remarkable and definitely not 'common' or easy.
I'd have to heavily disagree with you there. Maradona was just stunning during the group stages. In the first game he simply ran the show against South Korea and could have very easily had more than the 3 assists he had to show for in that game alone. In the second game against Italy, he was man-marked by Napoli teammate Bagni and he didn't have his usual impact against the reigning World Champions Italy, but he still scored against a Scirea marshalled defense, featuring the likes of Bergomi, Vierchowod, Cabrini and of course one of the greatest defenders of all time in the above-mentioned Scirea whom he had the beating of to score the only goal in a closely contested 1-1 draw. He was once against impressive against Bulgaria in their final group stage game and assisted Burruchaga for the second goal of the game. So yeah he clearly did a whole lot during the early stages and actually, more than his sheer productivity alone, it was the unbelievable influence he commandeered over the Argentine side and the way he ran the show which was nothing of unprecedented. Of course I don't need to go in depth into his famed displays during the business end of the tournament.
Likewise, Messi's feats for Barcelona are no less remarkable and he's shown time and time again that he's nothing short of an incredible player who can make some truly outstanding players of his era, look average. I always chuckle at the number of times Neymar (& Alba) waste some gilt-edged chances laid on plate by Messi and of course, I don't have to comprehensively extol the virtues of Messi and his insane accomplishments are still fresh in our memory. Staying on topic, I definitely don't think he has to win an international trophy for him to be proclaimed as the greatest of all time but I also do think that he could have probably done better for Argentina. Their forwards (esp Higuain) are misfiring and their FA is a mess by all accounts, but he has a good platform in Argentina as they are good-ish side with a resolute make and a fairly solid defense - without any remarkable defensive 'stars' apart from Mascherano. Obviously it's a subjective opinion and we don't really know how conducive or 'toxic' it is behind the scenes playing for the Albicelestes. Regardless, take nothing away from Messi's achievements for Barcelona and what he's done with the Catalans is unrivalled throughout club history imo.
I mean we are talking about two greats here, who have done extraordinary things and both naturally have their set of fortes and blemishes - both in terms of their character and with regards to their portfolio. There is no need to go overboard in the appraisal of one of em, or pettily downplay the achievements of the other. I certainly don't think it's clear-cut who's better and ultimately it boils down to subjective preferences.
It's quite a shame how Maradona's time at Napoli has almost gone unmentioned or has taken the backseat throughout the thread here, if I'm not wrong. Going by this thread alone, it seems as though the only thing Maradona has to show for his entire career is that 1986 WC and nothing else. There is a reason why the likes of Garrincha and Kempes aren't exactly being heralded at the very peak of the pantheon of greats, despite boasting similar-ish one-man displays (at a lower level) for their national sides during the WC, winning both the Golden Ball and the Golden Boot in 1962 & 1978 respectively. It was nothing short of remarkable what Maradona achieved at Napoli and he did it during Serie A's heyday, where competition was at it's fiercest and disparity between the quality of teams was significantly and relatively less, than the more 'stacked' club sides that we are seeing currently. We are talking about an era littered with an unprecedented number greats such as Platini, Scirea, van Basten, Gullit, Matthäus, Brehme, Passarella, Rijkaard, Bergomi, Baresi, Maldini, Boniek etc strutting their stuff in the Serie A in some truly top-notch sides. Yet Diego Maradona managed to inspire his team to two Serie A titles and two runner-up finishes. Balu made a great post on the sheer competitiveness and the unrivalled quality of the Serie A during that particular era and in particular, the incredible impact of Maradona on Napoli.
Of course, we need to take certain things into context as well. Napoli, nor Argentina for that matter, were average sides and had some goodish-excellent players (Ferrara, Alemao, Careca etc & Ruggeri, Brown, Valdano, Burruchaga etc) with cohesive tactical set-ups and were well-drilled sides as a whole. So Maradona didn't just single-handedly carry a bunch of donkeys as it's made out to be at times, and he had some well-made platforms to exhibit his talents, but there is obviously no denying the fact that Maradona's influence elevated both Argentina and Napoli to levels, where they simply had no business being at. Tbf, the likes of Sampdoria and Verona (relative minnows) won their only Serie A titles during this very time frame, which does diminish the 'revolutionary aspect' of Maradona's feats with Napoli. But at the same time, it also serves to show the competitiveness of the Serie A (with no lack of quality top sides unlike the PL last season) and also the quality that was spread fairly evenly throughout the league as opposed to a clear few favourites. You don't have to look any further than Balu's post above to see that what Maradona did with Napoli was nothing short of remarkable and definitely not 'common' or easy.
I'd have to heavily disagree with you there. Maradona was just stunning during the group stages. In the first game he simply ran the show against South Korea and could have very easily had more than the 3 assists he had to show for in that game alone. In the second game against Italy, he was man-marked by Napoli teammate Bagni and he didn't have his usual impact against the reigning World Champions Italy, but he still scored against a Scirea marshalled defense, featuring the likes of Bergomi, Vierchowod, Cabrini and of course one of the greatest defenders of all time in the above-mentioned Scirea whom he had the beating of to score the only goal in a closely contested 1-1 draw. He was once against impressive against Bulgaria in their final group stage game and assisted Burruchaga for the second goal of the game. So yeah he clearly did a whole lot during the early stages and actually, more than his sheer productivity alone, it was the unbelievable influence he commandeered over the Argentine side and the way he ran the show which was nothing of unprecedented. Of course I don't need to go in depth into his famed displays during the business end of the tournament.
Likewise, Messi's feats for Barcelona are no less remarkable and he's shown time and time again that he's nothing short of an incredible player who can make some truly outstanding players of his era, look average. I always chuckle at the number of times Neymar (& Alba) waste some gilt-edged chances laid on plate by Messi and of course, I don't have to comprehensively extol the virtues of Messi and his insane accomplishments are still fresh in our memory. Staying on topic, I definitely don't think he has to win an international trophy for him to be proclaimed as the greatest of all time but I also do think that he could have probably done better for Argentina. Their forwards (esp Higuain) are misfiring and their FA is a mess by all accounts, but he has a good platform in Argentina as they are good-ish side with a resolute make and a fairly solid defense - without any remarkable defensive 'stars' apart from Mascherano. Obviously it's a subjective opinion and we don't really know how conducive or 'toxic' it is behind the scenes playing for the Albicelestes. Regardless, take nothing away from Messi's achievements for Barcelona and what he's done with the Catalans is unrivalled throughout club history imo.
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