Messi retires from Argentina.

As far as direct comparisons between the Argentines go, both Maradona and Messi are two sublimely talented Argentines with wands for a left foot. That's where the similarity ends imo. I'd say that Maradona sheer force of personality, in fine blend with his outrageous talent, led him to doing things he had no right in attempting and achieving some truly unbelievable things. Unfortunately, his more explosive and rebellious personality also culminated in him burning out (relatively) faster and as a result, boast a less prolonged peak and falling outs galore with footballing peers and authorities alike. Maradona also didn't have the same level of selflessness (despite being a ridiculous playmaker) and the same team ethic that Messi has, which is always one of the most outstanding qualities of Messi imo. He's a genuine team player on the ball, always looking for the right option on the ball, linking up, playing one-twos etc like a true playmaker. He's a complete player in that sense - the technique, creativity and vision of a playmaker; the dribbling, skills and flair of a winger; the ruthless finishing and goalscoring record that'd be the envy of many a poacher. Basically a playmaker, goalscorer and a team player (on the ball ofc, his work rate off the ball is almost non existential nowadays) rolled into one. Just about everything you'd want from your ideal forward bar the physicality and power.

I definitely can't see Maradona replicating the feats of Messi and he would have never gelled with, nor adopted the philosophy of Pep's Barca side or 'shared the platform' with the likes of Xavi & Iniesta. Maradona is far too individualistic for that and needs more tactical accommodation as the 'focal point' of the side. It only serves to show the ridiculousness of Messi's achievements as he was doing things (albeit different things) at a level that the likes of Maradona, di Stefano etc were doing without requiring the same tactical accommodation or the same platform etc. He is far more tactically malleable and a more tactically astute player, if that makes sense. Likewise, I definitely can't see Messi recreating Maradona's feats for Napoli or that 1986 Argentinian side either, as he just doesn't have the same force of personality or the same ferocious 'underdog' winning mentality imo. That might seem like a load of bollocks to some, esp regarding someone who's won 8 la ligas and 3 Champions Leagues. Make no mistake, there is no doubting Messi's motivation or big game credentials (el classicos, CL finals etc) and it's definitely a controversial opinion, but one that I hold. However, I do think his more professional and tranquil demeanour lends itself to a more consistent peak and as stated above a more tactically astute and accommodating player etc.

Once again, this doesn't mean Messi is a weak-willed player incapable of running things, nor does it mean Maradona is an overly individualistic and an unaccommodating ego maniac who required 10 donkeys around him to do the running etc. Clearly not, before anyone twists my word. Messi's definitely shown his winning mentality with Barca and after the decline of Xavi, he moulded his game to become more of a playmaker for Barca and his passing is absolutely sublime. Likewise, no one else epitomised the art of elevating and enhancing a side, to a 'greater than the sum of its parts' than Maradona for example.

As stated before, I certainly don't think it's clear-cut who's better and ultimately it boils down to subjective preferences. Nothing much between em at all, and both have some things going for them and some against, naturally.
 
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Why do people keep comparing him to Maradonna anyway.
How is it relevant today?
 
sammyvine said:
Why do people keep comparing him to Maradonna anyway.
How is it relevant today?
Click to expand...
It's simple,

Messi is the greatest footballer of all time.

Maradonna is the greatest Argentinian footballer of all time.
 
Gio said:
We aren't comparing Higuain with Valdano here: it's not just about goals. It's one of the silliest lines of argument I've seen on this forum. Football games don't end up 104-102 - pure productivity analyses like these for creative players are lunacy. As is the suggestion that Platini's Euro '84 trumps Maradona's World Cup '86 - again a solely stats-based argument. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Maradona consistently ripped the opposition apart, time and time again, in every game, throughout that tournament. Platini - whose tournament was probably the second greatest of all time - didn't have that level of sustained dominance in his locker. It wasn't simply a few seconds of effort in a few games that can be distilled into your statistical analysis.
Click to expand...

Ripping an opponent apart is by no means the be all and end all to a football match though. At the end of the day, had Maradona not scored with his hand, had Argentina been as bad as people seem to assume they were, and they ultimately failed in securing the cup, how good he was in those games wouldn't be remembered.

Regardless of what you may think, stats win games. I am not here to argue Maradona's lack of dominance in that World Cup by any means. My argument is to try and dispel the myth that he, a) Did it all on his own in a terrible Argentinian side and b) try and explain that a month of incredible performances, which he couldn't emulate for his country ever again shouldn't be the only basis how to judge who the better of the two footballers is.

What Maradona did was incredible and unheard of for his time, but to use that as a basis and give it higher priority than that to the unreachable heights Messi has set in Club football has always been confusing to me.

I'd have to heavily disagree with you there. Maradona was just stunning during the group stages. In the first game he simply ran the show against South Korea and could have very easily had more than the 3 assists he had to show for in that game alone. In the second game against Italy, he was man-marked by Napoli teammate Bagni and he didn't have his usual impact against the reigning World Champions Italy, but he still scored against a Scirea marshalled defense, featuring the likes of Bergomi, Vierchowod, Cabrini and of course one of the greatest defenders of all time in the above-mentioned Scirea whom he had the beating of to score the only goal in a closely contested 1-1 draw. He was once against impressive against Bulgaria in their final group stage game and assisted Burruchaga for the second goal of the game. So yeah he clearly did a whole lot during the early stages and actually, more than his sheer productivity alone, it was the unbelievable influence he commandeered over the Argentine side and the way he ran the show which was nothing of unprecedented. Of course I don't need to go in depth into his famed displays during the business end of the tournament.
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That comment was a bit of a tongue in cheek considering the mind-set the earlier posters seemed to have. Ultimately, I agree, but those performances just further prove that what he achieved was not solely down to him. He had a very good set of players and yes, even though he may have elevated them, it just adds further uncertainty into what exactly separates these two. From a mutual stand-point, considering I am not particularly a Messi fan in particular, It seems obvious that a lot of things go into international success. Taking nothing away from Diego a lot of things fell into place in that World Cup to assist him, even though he was for the most part very good. There are a lot of what if's surrounding both players, what if Palacio didn't miss, what if Valdano didn't have a very good World Cup as well, what if Diego's HOG was disallowed.

All in all, that Argentinian team was very solid, had a very good defence, only conceding I believe 5 or so goals in the 7 games played, with good players to support Diego who most of all performed. Argentina of present just doesn't seem to have the same swagger or penetration. It's quite difficult at times to predict how Messi's international career could have panned out had he not looked like he was doing the best he could with scraps in some tournaments. World class players for Argentina of present have done nothing but disappoint and underwhelm. By no means am I suggesting Messi's dominance in 14' was comparable to Diego's, but considering in regards to statistics they were almost identical in regards to everything, dribbling included it does raise questions on how one with nearly identical stats could look so much better and win, whilst the other could look dejected and lose at the last hurdle.

A point I do agree with you on is the personality. For someone with such immense talent as Lionel he seems soft and doesn't seem to possess the leadership qualities someone like Diego would have had, for example. Lionel when Argentina are up against a wall just seems to get desperate and try to do everything himself rather than try and rally his team. This in particular could have been a big reason for his "underwhelming" international career. Which brings up another point on whether being a bigger personality and leader is essential to differentiate the two.



Overall, I think Messi is the better of the two by a minor margin, due to both his untouchable club achievements and because I believe his international career is often underrated, due to split-second moments, which haven't gone in his favour, whilst being managed by very average managers for the most part in his time with and underperforming Argentina side.

While I sometimes think people overrate Diego's contribution as incredible as it was. It's often a consensus that he did everything himself and single-handedly won the tournament, which isn't the case at all, whilst considering that he couldn't manage to emulate his performances for Argentina again. I guess there never will be an end to the discussion as, as you mentioned, Messi is the quiet little lethal play-maker, who seems to flourish in environments he is accustomed to, whereas Diego is a big personality, a leader and a individualistic player, who seem to excel in international tournaments due to the lack of understanding between most players.
 
Joga Bonito said:
As far as direct comparisons between the Argentines go, both Maradona and Messi are two sublimely talented Argentines with wands for a left foot. That's where the similarity ends imo. I'd say that Maradona sheer force of personality, in fine blend with his outrageous talent, led him to doing things he had no right in attempting and achieving some truly unbelievable things. Unfortunately, his more explosive and rebellious personality also culminated in him burning out (relatively) faster and as a result, boast a less prolonged peak and falling outs galore with footballing peers and authorities alike. Maradona also didn't have the same level of selflessness (despite being a ridiculous playmaker) and the same team ethic that Messi has, which is always one of the most outstanding qualities of Messi imo. He's a genuine team player on the ball, always looking for the right option on the ball, linking up, playing one-twos etc like a true playmaker. He's a complete player in that sense - the technique, creativity and vision of a playmaker; the dribbling, skills and flair of a winger; the ruthless finishing and goalscoring record that'd be the envy of many a poacher. Basically a playmaker, goalscorer and a team player (on the ball ofc, his work rate off the ball is almost non existential nowadays) rolled into one. Just about everything you'd want from your ideal forward bar the physicality and power.

I definitely can't see Maradona replicating the feats of Messi and he would have never gelled with, nor adopted the philosophy of Pep's Barca side or 'shared the platform' with the likes of Xavi & Iniesta. Maradona is far too individualistic for that and needs more tactical accommodation as the 'focal point' of the side. It only serves to show the ridiculousness of Messi's achievements as he was doing things (albeit different things) at a level that the likes of Maradona, di Stefano etc were doing without requiring the same tactical accommodation or the same platform etc. He is far more tactically malleable and a more tactically astute player, if that makes sense. Likewise, I definitely can't see Messi recreating Maradona's feats for Napoli or that 1986 Argentinian side either, as he just doesn't have the same force of personality or the same ferocious 'underdog' winning mentality imo. That might seem like a load of bollocks to some, esp regarding someone who's won 8 la ligas and 3 Champions Leagues. Make no mistake, there is no doubting Messi's motivation or big game credentials (el classicos, CL finals etc) and it's definitely a controversial opinion, but one that I hold. However, I do think his more professional and tranquil demeanour lends itself to a more consistent peak and as stated above a more tactically astute and accommodating player etc.

Once again, this doesn't mean Messi is a weak-willed player incapable of running things, nor does it mean Maradona is an overly individualistic and an unaccommodating ego maniac who required 10 donkeys around him to do the running etc. Clearly not, before anyone twists my word. Messi's definitely shown his winning mentality with Barca and after the decline of Xavi, he moulded his game to become more of a playmaker for Barca and his passing is absolutely sublime. Likewise, no one else epitomised the art of elevating and enhancing a side, to a 'greater than the sum of its parts' than Maradona for example.

As stated before, I certainly don't think it's clear-cut who's better and ultimately it boils down to subjective preferences. Nothing much between em at all, and both have some things going for them and some against, naturally.
Click to expand...

Your post is insightful and I agree with most of it but I want to say it's a clear cut in the end. Coming from Argentine there are no excuses. To be concidered the best ever you need a WC win with your NT, no other way around. And to top Maradona it's not enough to be part of the winning team, there must be more.

Leadership. Stand out winning mentality. Charisma.

No disrespect to Messi and his supporters but to be labeled the best ever it requires the whole package.
 
Joga Bonito said:
As far as direct comparisons between the Argentines go, both Maradona and Messi are two sublimely talented Argentines with wands for a left foot. That's where the similarity ends imo. I'd say that Maradona sheer force of personality, in fine blend with his outrageous talent, led him to doing things he had no right in attempting and achieving some truly unbelievable things. Unfortunately, his more explosive and rebellious personality also culminated in him burning out (relatively) faster and as a result, boast a less prolonged peak and falling outs galore with footballing peers and authorities alike. Maradona also didn't have the same level of selflessness (despite being a ridiculous playmaker) and the same team ethic that Messi has, which is always one of the most outstanding qualities of Messi imo. He's a genuine team player on the ball, always looking for the right option on the ball, linking up, playing one-twos etc like a true playmaker. He's a complete player in that sense - the technique, creativity and vision of a playmaker; the dribbling, skills and flair of a winger; the ruthless finishing and goalscoring record that'd be the envy of many a poacher. Basically a playmaker, goalscorer and a team player (on the ball ofc, his work rate off the ball is almost non existential nowadays) rolled into one. Just about everything you'd want from your ideal forward bar the physicality and power.

I definitely can't see Maradona replicating the feats of Messi and he would have never gelled with, nor adopted the philosophy of Pep's Barca side or 'shared the platform' with the likes of Xavi & Iniesta. Maradona is far too individualistic for that and needs more tactical accommodation as the 'focal point' of the side. It only serves to show the ridiculousness of Messi's achievements as he was doing things (albeit different things) at a level that the likes of Maradona, di Stefano etc were doing without requiring the same tactical accommodation or the same platform etc. He is far more tactically malleable and a more tactically astute player, if that makes sense. Likewise, I definitely can't see Messi recreating Maradona's feats for Napoli or that 1986 Argentinian side either, as he just doesn't have the same force of personality or the same ferocious 'underdog' winning mentality imo. That might seem like a load of bollocks to some, esp regarding someone who's won 8 la ligas and 3 Champions Leagues. Make no mistake, there is no doubting Messi's motivation or big game credentials (el classicos, CL finals etc) and it's definitely a controversial opinion, but one that I hold. However, I do think his more professional and tranquil demeanour lends itself to a more consistent peak and as stated above a more tactically astute and accommodating player etc.

Once again, this doesn't mean Messi is a weak-willed player incapable of running things, nor does it mean Maradona is an overly individualistic and an unaccommodating ego maniac who required 10 donkeys around him to do the running etc. Clearly not, before anyone twists my word. Messi's definitely shown his winning mentality with Barca and after the decline of Xavi, he moulded his game to become more of a playmaker for Barca and his passing is absolutely sublime. Likewise, no one else epitomised the art of elevating and enhancing a side, to a 'greater than the sum of its parts' than Maradona for example.

As stated before, I certainly don't think it's clear-cut who's better and ultimately it boils down to subjective preferences. Nothing much between em at all, and both have some things going for them and some against, naturally.
Click to expand...

The best take on this issue I've read so far. Maybe you have solved the conundrum.
 
Cruyff was better then Maradona.
3204840swsw.gif
 
sammyvine said:
Why do people keep comparing him to Maradonna anyway.
How is it relevant today?
Click to expand...

Because there's a need to have a debate around his figure and that's the only one that can be put in the table.

Messi is so good that he's always compared with other players in their terms, when people compare him with Ronaldo the debate has to be around goalscoring and even at that Messi has a better career ratio than Ronaldo, when Maradona is his rival it has to be about the World Cup and Argentina and now you can't talk about raw stats, it has to be about titles and Barcelona/Napoli can't make it into the argument. Then you could apply the rule of three to that equation (Messi, Ronaldo and Maradona) and the result should be that Maradona and Ronaldo are players of the same caliber alongside with Messi, a lot of people would say that Ronaldo can't be compared with what Maradona did and some will say that Ronaldo is better because he scores more goals, but in that equation Messi wins every single aspect besides a WC title, how is that fair?

And that has been going on for almost 10 years now, when people ask "Why would Messi retire" or say he's just a sore loser because a lot of good players play in lesser national teams they conveniently forget that those guys are usually idolized in their country, the Argentina hype train for the last 6 years has always started with "Come on Messi, win us this whole thing" and ended with "Messi, you're shite, you'll never be as good as Maradona, go play for Barcelona". The guy has been compromising almost every season since 2013 for his country, playing with injuries, not being fit and facing criticism. His reward? Being blamed for not winning almost alone. I get why he would think of not playing with Argentina anymore, they would be happier if the actual Maradona made it into the starting 11 and scored a goal in a 11-1 defeat against Vanuatu
 
7even said:
Your post is insightful and I agree with most of it but I want to say it's a clear cut in the end. Coming from Argentine there are no excuses. To be concidered the best ever you need a WC win with your NT, no other way around. And to top Maradona it's not enough to be part of the winning team, there must be more.

Leadership. Stand out winning mentality. Charisma.

No disrespect to Messi and his supporters but to be labeled the best ever it requires the whole package.
Click to expand...
I doubt Messi even cares himself tbh. I wouldn't if i were in his position. He has won so much, made so much money that if he isn't valued the best of all time....so be it.

Why does charsima matter btw? Who cares how a player is. Maradona wasn't charismatic and you an argue he was a flawed character. Still he won when it matters so that shouldn't be used to judge a player.

I also disagree that you have to win a world cup to be the best ever. What if a player plays for a very poor national team like Sweden or Denmark. How can they expect to win with limited players around them?
 
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Ishdalar said:
Because there's a need to have a debate around his figure and that's the only one that can be put in the table.

Messi is so good that he's always compared with other players in their terms, when people compare him with Ronaldo the debate has to be around goalscoring and even at that Messi has a better career ratio than Ronaldo, when Maradona is his rival it has to be about the World Cup and Argentina and now you can't talk about raw stats, it has to be about titles and Barcelona/Napoli can't make it into the argument. Then you could apply the rule of three to that equation (Messi, Ronaldo and Maradona) and the result should be that Maradona and Ronaldo are players of the same caliber alongside with Messi, a lot of people would say that Ronaldo can't be compared with what Maradona did and some will say that Ronaldo is better because he scores more goals, but in that equation Messi wins every single aspect besides a WC title, how is that fair?

And that has been going on for almost 10 years now, when people ask "Why would Messi retire" or say he's just a sore loser because a lot of good players play in lesser national teams they conveniently forget that those guys are usually idolized in their country, the Argentina hype train for the last 6 years has always started with "Come on Messi, win us this whole thing" and ended with "Messi, you're shite, you'll never be as good as Maradona, go play for Barcelona". The guy has been compromising almost every season since 2013 for his country, playing with injuries, not being fit and facing criticism. His reward? Being blamed for not winning almost alone. I get why he would think of not playing with Argentina anymore, they would be happier if the actual Maradona made it into the starting 11 and scored a goal in a 11-1 defeat against Vanuatu
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I wonder how Messi, Maradona and Ronaldo feel. Constantly being compared to one another etc..makes you appreciate them less actually because your looking for flaws in their game/achievements.
 
Womp said:
Regardless of what you may think, stats win games. I am not here to argue Maradona's lack of dominance in that World Cup by any means. My argument is to try and dispel the myth that he, a) Did it all on his own in a terrible Argentinian side and b) try and explain that a month of incredible performances, which he couldn't emulate for his country ever again shouldn't be the only basis how to judge who the better of the two footballers is.

What Maradona did was incredible and unheard of for his time, but to use that as a basis and give it higher priority than that to the unreachable heights Messi has set in Club football has always been confusing to me..
Click to expand...
That myth about Argentina or even Napoli being crap sides were brushed aside on here some time ago. Obviously you get the occasional odd-ball who comes in saying it, in the same way we'll hear from time to time that Messi has had a shit international career, but the majority view is less extreme than that. Argentina had a solid side in 1986: a decent, mostly unremarkable unit that we've seen countless times at the international level. And Messi's done okay at international level, good by the standards of most players in any case.
 
adexkola said:
Yeah that's a really shit view
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LOL. Messi must have his house in a private neighbourhood and that's how close they can get to

Tinelli-Messi-Barcelona-Twitter-cuervotinelli_CLAIMA20160629_0166_28.jpg



Marcelo Tinelli, one of Argentina's most important personalities in TV, said he talked to Messi and "There are chances" to have him back.



Luis Suarez: "Knowing Leo, I know he said that in the heat of the moment. I'm sure he'll reconsider and won't leave"
 
next picture is him with the pope

ok, we get it dude
 
Womp said:
Taking nothing away from Diego a lot of things fell into place in that World Cup to assist him, even though he was for the most part very good. There are a lot of what if's surrounding both players, what if Palacio didn't miss, what if Valdano didn't have a very good World Cup as well, what if Diego's HOG was disallowed.
Click to expand...
Womp said:
What Maradona did was incredible and unheard of for his time, but to use that as a basis and give it higher priority than that to the unreachable heights Messi has set in Club football has always been confusing to me.
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There always tends to be an element of luck involved in most tournament winning sides given the knock-out format, but let's also acknowledge the fact that international football brings with it its own unique set of constraints and issues that prove to be extremely challenging. Relative lack of chemistry as opposed to club sides, certain areas in the team which are un-fixable as you more or less always have a relatively underwhelming player or two, even in golden generations, and of course the knock-out nature which makes for a highly volatile and unpredictable environment - where a single error or a mistake from the linesman can send you packing. Also I do think that it simply isn't a matter of Messi 'just' winning the WC (with Palacio/Higuain scoring or what not) to 'equal' Maradona's WC win. Rather, it was his relatively underwhelming performances in the knock-out stages of the WC which was fairly disappointing for a player of his calibre. Even if Higuain had scored that goal in the final, I still wouldn't say it would have made a lot of difference to how it is right now, with how certain people regard Messi. Unless of course, people just view players trophy tally as the be-all and end-all.

Womp said:
By no means am I suggesting Messi's dominance in 14' was comparable to Diego's, but considering in regards to statistics they were almost identical in regards to everything, dribbling included it does raise questions on how one with nearly identical stats could look so much better and win, whilst the other could look dejected and lose at the last hurdle.
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I would equate Messi's 2014 performances to Maradona's Bronze Ball winning exploits in Italia 1990 when he was still a key player for Argentina but just not that same irrepressible force of nature that he was in 1986.

Womp said:
For someone with such immense talent as Lionel he seems soft and doesn't seem to possess the leadership qualities someone like Diego would have had, for example.
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Agreed with that, esp when we compare him to greats in his company such as di Stefano, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer etc. However, it's just a facet amongst many others and not overly critical in determining the quality of a player imo. There are certain attributes that are unique to Messi that other greats do not possess and vice versa.

7even said:
Stand out winning mentality. Charisma.
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I do think he has both of these in abundance, esp the latter. There is no doubting his ability to inspire/influence others and conjure up something out of nothing, and likewise his sheer repertoire of match winning displays at the higher end of the spectrum. It's unfair to extrapolate his relatively poorer Argentinian form to his entire career. I myself prefer Maradona and think he's the better player (ever so slightly, mind you) simply because there is nothing much separating Messi and Maradona as talents, but I do prefer the latter and rate his body of work with both Napoli and Argentina slightly higher. Of course, like I've stated above, it's subjective and people could very well rate Messi's ridiculous and consistent exploits with Barca higher or simply rate him higher as an individual and it wouldn't necessarily be an outrageous opinion.

adexkola said:
He just said (brilliantly, mind) that it's subjective. That's not solving any conondrum, that's stating the obvious (brilliantly, mind)!
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Indeed, there is no fixed answer or a standardised metric for measuring the greatness of a player - it's purely subjective in most cases.
 
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Higuain gets a chunk of the blame for missing chances in each final, yet Messi gets none for missing a one on one against Germany and going full Baggio a few days ago.
 
Joga Bonito said:
I do think he has both of these in abundance, esp the latter. There is no doubting his ability to inspire/influence others and conjure up something out of nothing, and likewise his sheer repertoire of match winning displays at the higher end of the spectrum. It's unfair to extrapolate his relatively poorer Argentinian form to his entire career. I myself prefer Maradona and think he's the better player (ever so slightly, mind you) simply because there is nothing much separating Messi and Maradona as talents, but I do prefer the latter and rate his body of work with both Napoli and Argentina slightly higher. Of course, like I've stated above, it's subjective and people could very well rate Messi's ridiculous and consistent exploits with Barca higher or simply rate him higher as an individual and it wouldn't necessarily be an outrageous opinion.
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One of them is the best ever. Once again ability and talanted wise they are like two twins, only from different eras, but to be the best we can't dismiss the WC, it's impossible to not also include charisma and winning mentality. We talk about the best ever....

I go from my own experience.

When Messi plays for Barcelona and Argentina I see many many world class players and one extremely good Lionel Messi. He's the best of the bunch and he often stands out with great goals and dribbling adventures.

When Maradona was at his best there where him and nothing else. Like one red Ferrari together with 21 dark Skoda's. It was like fecking Jesus was walking on water with 21 desiples watching the miracle.

So for me it's easy.
 
Messi was well surrounded. But MERCADO WAS SO FREE he could take a nap there before finishing. That image doesn't show it really clear

CmFbvekWMAAUs_c.jpg:large



That's one of the reasons 90% of argentines want Aguero out.
 
There was a video made from the last Copa showing all the chances he created, or how no one was open to receive a pass from him. Can't find it on YouTube... If someone could be a charm and find that please.
 
Argentina will be rubbish without him

I expect them to struggle with qualifiying
 
So odd how guys like Di Maria, Higuain and Aguero turn to shit for Argentina.
 
Skorenzy said:
Come on now @Brwned , I agree that the issues with most coaches (Batista, Martino) are the same and nothing that Messi shouldn't have to overcome, but Maradona's tenure was a level beyond insane, calling up over 100 players to the NT in under 2 years? Nevermind the fact that he literally had zero experience as a manager or coach... Bilardo had been in management for over a decade when the 1986 WC came around and Diego had him for the 7 years of his peak (1983-90). Messi in his peak got Maradona (2008-10), Batista (2010-11), Sabella (2011-14) and Martino (2014-present) -- and the second Arg got experienced managers (the latter two) the team's results went up immediately as well.

Overall I feel your comment is right in that there shouldn't be too much focus on these things as eventually Messi should be judged on himself most of all, but at least Maradona's tenure is a notable caveat to that rule in my opinion :D
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I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the details of Maradona's management, I must admit. My comment was more general. No matter which international team fail, the excuses are always the same. They lack cohesion. There are clear weaknesses in the team that can't be solved with the players available. The team selection was wrong. That's what's said after every big team loses. If Spain would've went out on penalties to Portugal in 2012 they would've said that, they lacked pace, the picked the wrong players, they have an outdated manager, they have a fractured team, yadda yadda yadda, but they won and were crowned the best team ever.

All of these teams have problems to overcome. The fact that they won means they overcame them, not that they didn't exist. For some reason people like to ignore that. The Argentina team was imperfect in 1986 and it's imperfect in 2006. The reality is this Argentina team was good enough to reach three finals in a row so the idea that it's not good enough to allow Messi to win a title is utterly absurd. Their team now is better than their team then. One of the major differences is they don't have a Maradona, Beckenbauer, Pelé leading the team and holding things together in key moments.

I think Messi's arguably the best but it seems silly to ignore the fact he wasn't able to inspire them to victory in their most important moments.
 
Its obvious that he just wants to sit out the Qualifiers and then return in time for the World Cup.

If Ronaldo pulled this stunt, everyone would be calling him a crybaby and a quitter.
 
Jaybomb said:
Its obvious that he just wants to sit out the Qualifiers and then return in time for the World Cup.

If Ronaldo pulled this stunt, everyone would be calling him a crybaby and a quitter.
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People would say it's justified, he's been wank these Euros. :lol: Seriously though, people have already said that same rubbish to Messi, he doesn't owe Argentina anything. He's gotten them to several finals.
 
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