Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
- Start date
Messi will be praised when he retires
This,happens to all superstars. People critercise and choose to hate but when they are gone we only remember the positives.
It happened to Michael Jordan, Maradonna, Zidane......
Quite obvious and plain to see.
In this last game he made some great runs reminiscent of the peak Messi, but after each of these he simply wandered in the midfield barely moving at all for 10 or 15 minutes. He was attentive, not giving the ball away and waiting for a chance to shine, but it looks he's lacking energy and strength more than will.
I wonder, does he or did he look less interested simply because the Argentina team doesnt keep the ball half aswell as Barcelona used to in their peak. Im just saying its hard to look lazy in team that has 70% possession most of the time.
Addionally, Mourinho has had his say...
Addionally, Mourinho has had his say...
^^ That speaks volumes. Neither seen eye to eye in the past.
"All my respect to Messi because he played for his team and this can't be said of all players at this World Cup."
ouch another slap on Ronaldo.
ouch another slap on Ronaldo.
deserved one, if you ask me
Neuer has more passes completed as a Goalkeeper than Messi, just saying.
I am assuming Squawka?? That also lists Messi as better than any German player in their world cup winning year.
1st, it's idiotic to compare passes completed stats. What's good a pass if that makes no useful contribution. What it simply means Germans like to keep possession of the ball and play a lot of back passes to the keeper and the keeper is used as a sweeper. Not any different from what Valdes has done for many years. If I head over to whoscored, Neuer completed 129 passes compared to 232 from Messi.
Just saying.
Platini was brilliant, but I think Messi is better.. he's a level above in my opinion. Messi deserves to be in the debate in relation to the very top echelon of players.. Platini and Zico as great as they were, will not be in the top top tier of greats.
The bookies thought Brazil, Argentina. But anyway the point is that Netherlands making the SF is an overachievement, Argentina making the final wasn't.
It's only an over-achievement if you just look at "they reached the semi-finals". They only "over-achieved" in one game and that was against Spain. Unless beating Costa-Rica and Mexico wasn't expected of them, and they did it as unremarkably as possible. They were good. But the way the tournament panned out no Dutch would be happy with less than semi-finals, and it would be remembered as a disappointment.
It's a bit like those "great save" comments when the keeper would be mocked if it had gone in. It doesn't make sense.
Argentina in the final wasn't an over-achievement either.
Over-achievers in this World Cup? Algeria, Costa-Rica, USA to a more limited extent (considering their group).
Is 3.3 key passes common? Do players hit that during the league season? Seems very high. Even 2.4 does.I am assuming Squawka?? That also lists Messi as better than any German player in their world cup winning year.
1st, it's idiotic to compare passes completed stats. What's good a pass if that makes no useful contribution. What it simply means Germans like to keep possession of the ball and play a lot of back passes to the keeper and the keeper is used as a sweeper. Not any different from what Valdes has done for many years. If I head over to whoscored, Neuer completed 129 passes compared to 232 from Messi.
Just saying.
The point is that the pre-tournament odds are a good indication. Top 2 favs makes the final - on par, non-top 4 fav makes the SF - over achieve.
I agree those you listed over achieved, but so did the Dutch, slightly. Most people expected them to lose to Brazil in Rd 2 if you remember.
Indeed, that's why I considered they over-achieved against Spain. That was the game that made getting to the semi-final expected. Since they failed to disappoint in other matches (result wise, as I'd say they played poorly, even considering their squad) I suppose it's fair to say they over-achieved "a little" looking at it that way.
I doubt the odds of them making the SF after the group stage weren't among the highest for the top teams.
Last edited:
I'd say this is one of them instances where you can use stats to shut up the sheer loons who claim Messi has been shite and that even considering him for the golden ball is insane and/or corrupt.
But at the same time it's one of them instances where you can claim that the stats don't tell the full story. If you've watched Argentina's matches during this WC it should be clear as day that Messi hasn't been on song. It's not down to his role (which was to be expected - what Maureen says is true but nobody expected Messi to play his customary Barca role for Argentina, that was never on the cards), nor the fact that he's tightly marked (of course he is). Something is off with him beyond these external factors and it's plain enough to see.
You may very well say that his stats are excellent - not least for a player who is not on song - but that doesn't make his WC less of a disappointment for those of us who were hoping he would truly put his stamp on the tournament. He didn't do that, no matter what the stats say.
But at the same time it's one of them instances where you can claim that the stats don't tell the full story. If you've watched Argentina's matches during this WC it should be clear as day that Messi hasn't been on song. It's not down to his role (which was to be expected - what Maureen says is true but nobody expected Messi to play his customary Barca role for Argentina, that was never on the cards), nor the fact that he's tightly marked (of course he is). Something is off with him beyond these external factors and it's plain enough to see.
You may very well say that his stats are excellent - not least for a player who is not on song - but that doesn't make his WC less of a disappointment for those of us who were hoping he would truly put his stamp on the tournament. He didn't do that, no matter what the stats say.
But he did put his stamp on the tournament. Without him Argentina might not even have passed through the group stage i.m.h.o. Even in the Germany game he played well I think, not brilliant but well enough. He only had too few chances to show himself due to Argentina's style of game. Only thing you may blame him for is in the end he didn't score nor did he deliver an assist, he wasn't decisive.
In my opinion expectations are simply too high to such an effect that, what for any other player would have been a great performance, in his case doesn't even get noticed....
I agree that the player of the tournament price should have been given to someone else b.t.w.
In my opinion expectations are simply too high to such an effect that, what for any other player would have been a great performance, in his case doesn't even get noticed....
I agree that the player of the tournament price should have been given to someone else b.t.w.
Well, all is relative, ain't it? I don't think one can say that expectations were too high given what he's done - time and again - on a football pitch. He isn't any old player.
And the main point remains that beyond his stats (which are very good) and his performances (which were good, not great), he was a disappointment. Other players would have been rightly lauded for taking their team to the final, no doubt. But he isn't "other players", he's one of the best footballers in the history of the game.
The volume of stats getting traded here and in the other Golden Ball thread is becoming ridiculous. They're invariably used without context and by nutters at polar sides of the argument. Chances created? Crap statistic - pass it a yard to a team-mate who decides to take a shot from 35 yards - well done you've "created a chance". Key pass? Same shite. Man of the match? A fan poll populated by 8-year-old gobshites clicking refresh on their favourite player.
Well can't really argue with that.
Too bad footballers can't take a sabbatical...
Actually neither of them 3 really got all that criticised for their performances, they were very much put into greatest discussion in their 20's and not many denied it to them like they do with Messi and Ronaldo and many other modern day sportsmen. But they didn't play in such stats obsessed eras where every second is shown on TV somewhere, and your fails are on youtube within minutes.
I can't believe someone is calling Maradona a centre midfielder too. He played in pretty much the same position as Messi, maybe Messi was a bit higher but given they spent an awful lot of the tournament with 2 very central strikers with him, he did his fair share of playmaking and dropping deep too, which is backed up by the interceptions and chances created. He can easily be a playmaker given some of the stuff he's done at Barca when forced out of the game further up......but yeah, there was nothing behind him helping him to dictate the game, Masch can't do that, Gago can't at an elite level, Riquelme can't play that deep....Maradona took an ancient Veron to try and do it last time. The Banega omission was an odd one really, though he's not elite either.
Last edited:
Yes but performances compared to who? Messi of 2012? SURE... he is not 100%, not even close.. but compared to other players at the tournament? Well how much better were their performances compared to Messi when you look at it? Robben, Rodriguez? What did they do that they clearly had the better tournament? I saw all matches and I don't really see it.. at best J.Rodriguez and Robben had some good performances and combined with Messi they were the best players of the tournament, who won the best player award? could be any of them tbh.. but no player was clearly better or had better performances so you can say the award to Messi is unjust.
I dare to claim if Messi was from England or Brasil he would be hailed as the best player in the world, but since hes not.. he is from Argentina and he is Messi, hence he is compared to himself in 2012 and the mythical god Maradona who afaik won the WC 86 on his own ( which is bullshit, he even had a better team than Messi had this year ).
Never was he the player of the tournament 
Thing is, no one can have legendary performances on every stage to the same extent. Messi has been obscenely good at club level. He has had a good World Cup but on the same level. There are too many factors including luck, fitness etc involved for a player to ace every single aspect to the same extent. There are no perfect sports careers. At some point you'll either hit a bad patch or face fitness issues or have too many expectations. These aren't excuses because he doesn't need any given he had a good tournament, but it's just how life goes. 4 years of being injury free and clearly the best footballer on the planet is a pretty great run. Now he's facing physical issues and hasn't been at the same level for a year. Let's see if he gets there again. Still a brilliant footballer either way.
Never was he the player of the tournament
The only players that had better "brute stats" (goals/assists) were Muller and Rodriguez, but Muller's goals weren't as influential in the scorelines, and Rodriguez didn't reach the semi.
Other than that he created more chances than anyone by far. Didn't commit any glaring mistakes, nor lost many stupid balls. His team reached the final, and almost every time they looked threatening it was due to him.
Could have gone to a few other players, and it wouldn't look out of place either, namely a few defensive-minded ones. The fact that the other finalist was a cohesive team with no stand-out individual tipped the balance in his favour. It's not that stupid when you think about it. It's debatable, not laughable. Among offensive-minded players it could have gone to him, Muller, Rodriguez or Robben, and you could make a case for any if you tried.
Problem with Messi is being judged by his own standards and not by other players ones. I don't think being disappointing (which he was, to some extent) and being the best-player are mutually exclusive, but some people can't seem to get their head around that.
No, not at all. He had 23 in total. Next is Ozil, Muller, Shaqiri and Robben (all 17).
None of Di Maria, James, Iniesta, Ozil, Muller, Robben, Mata, David Silva, Hazard, Ronaldo had better numbers in past year even in club competitions. David Silva was closest at 3.2 in PL (obviously much lesser ratio of goals scored).
Apart from key passes, Messi had highest number of successful dribbles (46). Just for comparison sake, Muller had 12 and Robben had 34. Just shows how easy it's for a lazy Messi to beat players even today. Ohh, he also had the most number of accurate Through Balls.
For so many Hummels fan here, he left him for dead twice in the match. If he can be arsed, he will still burn every single defender in 1-1 situations.
The best pass of this world cup, bar none:
Indeed. Also, between Maradona's International debut and his final match (1977-1994), Argentina won the following major honours (among a few others):
2x World Cup (1978 / 1986)
2x Copa America (1991 / 1993)
1x Confederations Cup (1992)
They were also World Cup runners up in 1990, where Maradona really flattered to decieve and almost cost Argentina the tournament, before he did cost them in 1994, playing his last ever match at International level for failing a drugs test. As much as Maradona had a large part to do with the finals in 1986, and he was awsome, Argentina clearly weren't a team of nobodies.
So, Maradona's World Cups:
1982 - World Cup debut aged 21. Did ok, but not as expected. Scored two goals against Hungary, sent off against Brazil as they lost both second group stage matches. Moved to Barcelona afterwards for a World Record fee.
1986 - Redeemed himself, invididually the best performance by a single player in a World Cup finals, was not a one man show though.
1990 - Didn't score, missed an important spot kick in a shootout with Yugoslavia, went out with a bit of a wimper in the final, Argentina had one shot on goal.
1994 - Less said the better.
As for Messi:
2006 - World Cup debut aged 18. Just back from injury, scored against Serbia, played well against Holland and Mexico, Pekerman was crucified for not playing him against Germany and for taking Riquelme off.
2010 - Player of the group stages, didn't score, but had a hand in pretty much all their goals with four or five assists but Argentina were eventually taken apart by Germany in the Quarter Finals.
2014 - Helped Argentina to their first World Cup Final in 24 years. Won the Golden Ball (abeit controversially). Dragged his side to the Quarter Finals. Argentina's attack were dire and had no shots on goal in the final.
I'd say Messi has one more Word Cup in him, possibly even two depending how he adapts himself. Getting Argentina to another final and/or producing in the Copa America will take him right in line with Maradona IMO. At Club level there's a huge gap between what he's achieved and what Maradona did, that can't be called into question.
BTW, just for shits and giggles - The only two players to ever win the Golden Ball at the FIFA U-20 World Cup and FIFA World Cup? Diego Maradona and Lionel Messi.
Meh, he went missing for large swathes from the quarter finals onwards. And anyway, it's all well and good 'looking threatening', but at the end of the day, he had chances to put his team ahead but didn't take them.
I don't care for the Maradona comparisons. They're a mug's game as far as I'm concerned. Different players, different styles, different eras.
So, yes - the comparison for me is with Messi's own standards. He falls short if the expectations are that he shall emphatically put his stamp on the tournament, playing like a so-called GOAT. He didn't do that - which is disappointing. What Robben or Rodriguez do is irrelevant. They aren't in Messi's league, brutally put. The expectations are on a different level there - as they should be, in my opinion.
I was looking for 45-page threads like Ronaldo at the world cup, Muller at the world cup or Robben at world cup. If Messi is so bad, just wonder quality of mere mortals like Muller.
You're absolutely right. But I'm not concerned with this idea that Messi has to do this or that in order to make it to some "tier" which only exists as long as we want it to exist. I'm concerned with Messi's own performance in the tournament, given his own standards - not those of anyone else. And he came up short for me, looked a bit pale, out of sorts, call it what you will. As the tournament progressed I hoped more and more that he would finally emerge in full pomp - and he didn't. Which was disappointing.
If he had been anyone else his tournament would've been a very satisfactory one. But he isn't anyone else - if he was, I wouldn't have taken an interest in how he fared to begin with.
You do realize he missed some months this season due to injuries? and it wasn't a one time deal, it was stretched out through the whole season. Physicaly he is not fit, certainly nowhere near 100%, which is evident by his off the ball movement and amount of distance covered each match, which is pitiful ever since he was back from his last injury and in this World Cup aswell. Also his father is being sued for tax evasion. Some guy close to him died. Mentaly he is also not doing the best.
Mind you im not trying to defend him, but we talk about expectations now, how could we seriously have expected the old Messi? I certainly didn't, I knew he is not in his best form and unfit, I didn't even expect Argentina to go past the quarter finals if even that. He was actually better than I thought based on everything.
But yeah.. see this is why World Cup is useless to determine who is better, how can it not be if its every 4 years? .. Just imagine if World cup was in 2012, how things would be different..
Apart from the group stage no one can say Messi was good. No matter what his fans say. Anyone who watched the tournament would tell you there were a few better than him and he probably wasn't the best in his team.
Ironically he actually had two chances to put himself in an untouchable level, but he completely flopped them and should be rightfully called up on it.
It's weird because I made a post on here about how Messi had truly stepped up last week before the quarter final but since then he went hiding.
Ironically he actually had two chances to put himself in an untouchable level, but he completely flopped them and should be rightfully called up on it.
It's weird because I made a post on here about how Messi had truly stepped up last week before the quarter final but since then he went hiding.
Yeah, there might be all sorts of reasons for it. That's a different debate, though. He showed in glimpses what he's capable of. In those glimpses he - actually - looks very much like his old self. Which makes his...state...all the more puzzling.
Anyway, hopefully he can get some rest, be managed sensibly next season and come back in full pomp. The underlying worry here is obviously that he's burnt out - beyond repair, so to speak.
Don't talk shite. He was his sides best player in against Switzerland and against Belgium tied with Higuain in the only game where he showed up. Anyway you can't talk about his 'fans' like there's kind of bias when there's a clear bias from the majority of people who wanted him to fail, yourself included.
I actually thought he had a decent game in the final until about the hour mark, much the same as against Holland. Not anywhere near his best, but then he's never been near his best the whole tournament and obviously has some physical problems.
But to say he completely flopped two big opportunities like it's as simple as him going out and taking the opposition on himself is just nonsense.
Incidentally do you think the German's are at all bothered that their World Cup win is a mere afterthought to the massive wankathon over Messi not winning the World Cup? it's dominating everywhere.
.....
BTW, just for shits and giggles - The only two players to ever win the Golden Ball at the FIFA U-20 World Cup and FIFA World Cup? Diego Maradona and Lionel Messi.
for the love of football, do you really believe in what you're writing or it is just plain simple statistics science?
Maradona 1986 vs Messi 2014?
ok, they both won the prize
no comment
you even quoted the "shits and giggles" part......you prob the geezer who thinks Diego a CM.
Well we will have to agree to disagree I think the defence is what have got Argentina to the final. From after the second round.
The truth is he had two big chances and missed them in the biggest match of his career so far. They weren't easy but they were opportunities you'd expect him to atleast produce a top save instead he shanked both completely.
I don't expect him to take on Germany himself but when the opportunity comes especially two like that I hope he rises to the occasion.
for the love of football, do you really believe in what you're writing or it is just plain simple statistics science?
Maradona 1986 vs Messi 2014?
ok, they both won the prize
no comment
... Exactly. What's your problem?
Bit of both wasn't it? Messi got them to the QF's, the defence got them to the final. Argentina had a non-existent attack otherwise. Losing Di Maria was costly in the end, think he'd have given Howedes and Hummels a good going over on that right hand side if he were available. Palacio and Higuain had the two real clear cut chances, missed the target by miles. Perhaps they ought to drop Aguero and Higuain in future for Lavezzi and Di Maria.