Pathetic performance by him vs the dutch. Disappeared after half time. He's not been the best player at this tournament let alone comparing this to some all time great tournaments by others. Its a shame really but this was his stage again and he failed to live up to his billing as the greatest of all time. Unfortunately lads, when talking of players of this category the standards are really high, and performances that he's shelled out simply don't cut it.
Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
- Start date
Nonsense.
+1. Can't remember 1 time when Messi did not had at least 2 dutch players on him. Holland was afraid to attack, very afraid to commit men forward, because they were afraid that Messi will hit them on the counter. Laughable to say that Messi did not have any impact on the game.
This article says it all really
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/wo...nes-SIX-bid-stop-Lionel-Messi-semi-final.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/wo...nes-SIX-bid-stop-Lionel-Messi-semi-final.html
Messi's WC was to an extent underwhelming for me, but props to him for delivering when it mattered. I'd say that his overall level of play was significantly higher in 2010, but then it begs the question why has his WC 2010 campain been widely labeled "underwhelming", "a failure", "really bad" and generally speaking used as a stick to beat him with....
Without Messi's goals in the groups they would've finished with two points and not got through.
how's that?
That was great stuff by him.
And obviously he was clearly better robben yesterday who was actually terrible.
Messi did alright, but he's clearly nowhere near the player he used to be. He ambles around the pitch not wanting the ball as much, not making himself available, not really getting into a proper sprint and often, and this is insane for him, losing possession due to bad decision making. And the incredible part is that even despite all of that he has to be one of well in the running for player of the tournament. That just goes to see the level we've seen him at over the years. If I have guess as to why the drastic drop off, I'd say he's either been badly affected by one of his injuries or it's a phase he's going through due to an injury hit last year and pure burn out. I do hope he returns that player he used to be. It's just weird to see messi lose possession the way he is right now. Maybe well see him turn it on in the final more like he did prior to the last game and a half.
He's had a very good tournament. Are you going to say robben has been average this tournament? Because last night he was pretty pointless.
Also, I'd like to which of those players matched his level of performances at club level.
So is Messi sick or injured?, i feel its not normal for a player to walk so much of a game. On the other hand he had a personal marker on all times and every time he touched the ball 4 dutchmen appeared from nowhere to mark him. Lets hope on the final we get a glance of the old Messi.
I don't think this tournament should be his legacy. His club form from 08-13 should be his legacy. A phenomenal goal scoring rate that may never be topped, and the most complete player you could ask for. His engine was incredible in that time, he scored multiple goals a game at will, assisted whenever he pleased, and won everything in club football. He isn't having a good tournament in the grand scheme of things, and even if Argentina win the whole thing, we should look back and say he is the best ever because of his club form in that period, and hopefully in the future.
There is only so much one man can do for his team, Messi has done more than enough for Argentina and it also doesn't help that their midfield is non existent with creativity which means Messi has to run a lot more to find space to try a dribble or make a through ball as he has been man marked out of the game.
He has conditioning problems. He said himself after the Belgium game: “My legs felt like they weighed a hundred kilos.” And he certainly looks like it after 60 minutes or so. I refuse to believe it's a physical decline per se. But in the past year he has missed over 100 days due to injury, has been rushed back several times, didn't do a proper preseason training and to top it all off Gerardo Martino proved to have antiquated training methods according to various reports and player interviews (Isaac Cuenca) after his departure which bemoaned a lack of intensity in training. That surely can throw a player off at that level. Add the weather conditions in Brazil and you get this version of Messi. Which for me is still the player of the tournament.
Statistically (OPTA) Messi has created the most chances (21) in the tournament, had the most successful take-ons (39, second best is Robben with 29), has scored 4 goals and given 1 assist, has 4 official MOTM awards, scored a pressure penalty in the semi-final and is playing in the final while being the tightest marked player in the tournament. Sure, not exactly Maradona 1986 so far but why can't he just win it while having a "normal" world class tournament? Winning a World Cup in Brazil against Germany in the final would be a huge achievement no matter whether he doesn't score or assist next game. It's not as if he'd be a passenger like Arbeloa in a World Cup winning team. He's a very essential part.
Not directing the last bit to you by the way, just in general after reading the last few pages.
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I believe di Maria's absence has had a massive impact on Messi's performance, as it has allowed teams to focus on closing him down. di Maria provided an alternate point of concern for opponents, freeing up space for Messi.
I don’t think he has really played that well at all in the games I’ve seen during the tournament. Credit to him for the goals, as he has dragged Argentina through with them in the group stage, but his overall game for me hasn’t been all that great. It doesn’t help when you see him just ambling about off the ball, and only seems interested when he actually has the ball.
Sure he has more markers than other players, but that is nothing new for him and he has performed in the past under those conditions. Saying that the setting has been created for him to steal the show in the final and if he steps up there, no one will remember the average games in the lead up.
Sure he has more markers than other players, but that is nothing new for him and he has performed in the past under those conditions. Saying that the setting has been created for him to steal the show in the final and if he steps up there, no one will remember the average games in the lead up.
He's always done it, which is why he'll still be playing into his late 30's, and other players (Suarez,Ronaldo,Bale) ect will tail off when they begin their 30's, he conserves energy fantastically, he's always done it, he wanders around... gets the ball... them BOOM, he's off on one of his little bursts which often concludes in a goal/assist/chance. But it's been harder as at the WC every team he has come up against has marked him with 3/4 men, which isn't the same for any other player in the world
Poor Cal, how would you cope? And no, you surely don't have a preoccupation with Messi
I agree with the bit about him having a "normal" world class tournament. His achievements and performance levels at club level have been at such an absurd level, he doesn't even need a maradona 86 type tournament. Besides, that requires a player to be at his peak and things to come together right. For messi, that's happened with Barcelona already.
But at the same time the bolded bit is sad.
His performances have not reflected his status as (for many) the best player in the world. He has been reasonably good and frequently anonymous, and while he has scored a couple of important goals, there's not a single match that he dominated. He hasn't been decidedly poor, but I don't think anyone can be taken seriously if they claim that he has had a good WC so far. He has not come close to what would be expected of the best player in the world.
Sorry to hijack a bit but wanted to comment on Martino. The reports on lack of trainning and such may have been greatly exagerated and misinterpreted, specially by some sectors of the local press who were against Martino from day 1. Cuenca talked about Martino's lack of 'positional trainning compared to Guardiola', not so much physical conditioning, and it makes sense since Martino has a vertical, simpler style of game as opposed to Guardiola's more horizontal, possession and intricate systems. Other players in the squad (Mascherano, Fabregas, Alba, etc.) have mentioned trainning intensity was as good as always.
Once Martino left those sectors of local press started having a field day with him and suddenly he was guilty of everything that went wrong and the players had done nothing wrong, mostly because they get their insider info from players themselves so they never blame them.
I'll say in his defense he only lost 2 games against big rivals: Atletico in CL, and Madrid in Copa final (with sub goalkeeper and defense, and both teams finalists of CL). He lost liga in the last game and copa in the final. He won every other big game, including 2x ManCity, 2x Madrid in liga and more I don't remember. All this with Messi missing for 3 months, Neymar missing 2+ months, Alba missing 3+ months, Valdés missing 3+ months, Alves missing 2+ months, Iniesta and Piqué in their worst season, Busquets with pubalgia, Puyol virtually retired due to knee problems, no defense replacements, etc. The man was never recognized any kind of merit like, for example, when Mourinho beat City he was considered a genius, when Martino did it twice it was just another day in the office.
If physical trainning was so bad I wonder why neither Alexis nor Neymar, nor some others, show any hint of lack of conditioning.
Regarding Messi, he's been walking for the last 2-3 seasons and I'd say it gradually gets worse. That said, this season he only scored 3 less goals than Ronaldo (league top scorer) while missing 3 months due to injury and shooting 50 times less. He has better numbers in 2014 year than Ronaldo (goals+assists). He was also Barcelona's top assist (69). It's obvious he moves less and has lost explosiveness and maybe top speed, but he still manages to put up impressive numbers, goals and passes. Bit of a mystery, but I'm not sure conditioning has anything to do with it. New trainer Luis Enrique is a conditioning fanatic (marathon, triathlon competitor) so I guess we'll find out this season if that is the problem.
I said his late winners, were the goals Nigeria late at all?
(not just you) but some of you should read before replying.
Considering I tipped Argentina to progress against the Dutch (check the first page of the match thread if you want), I'm coping rather well if my winnings.
I've said it before, I'm a United fan more than I'm a football fan.Your such a hater
You used to hate Henry as well because he was Ruud's rival
Btw, this isn't something new for Messi, bar the first two seasons under Guardiola he's always ambled about the pitch. Yesterday he just looked lazy, but tosay he's on the decline is madness. He was one ofthe three players touted for player of the tournament before last night, one so so game and the fickle fans are out saying he's done? Sadly he's a victim of his own super human form
You're not a fan in any way, shape or form - you backed Barca to beat Man Utd in the CL final.
I'd like him to win it now just is he can get the 'he's never won a World Cup so he's shit' brigade off his back.
He is nowhere near fully fit, has been double and treble marked every game and still got them to the quaters with 4 goals and one assist. He has had a significant tournament without being anywhere near his best.
IF he can provide one great moment in the final and Argentina win the game that is more than anyone can ask of him
@louvega That is an informative post and provides some perspective, cheers. Obviously the Spanish football press isn't the most reliable. However the rumours flying around were that the likes of Busquets and Pedro even hired personal trainers due to Martino's training regime and that there were disagreements between Tito's old physical staff which was still present and Martino's own staff which supposedly didn't make use of modern training methods. Those rumours were very persistent and coming from more reputable sources than your daily gossip magazines MD and Sport (in this case El Pais if I'm not mistaken) and with Cuenca's recent statements (not only about positional play, he said this: "It was a very strange season. There were times during the season that trainings weren’t intense") it all seemed to make some sort of sense.
I agree about Messi's walking tendencies even before Martino. But that was mostly the defensive job and pressing he started to neglect. Which I could somewhat comprehend. The more Xavi's domination and influence started to fade the bigger Messi's role to lead the team and thereby his ego have gotten. To the point that he is now requiring teammates to revolve around his game rather than being another (great) part of a unit. But apart from that he was still ... well, explosive, fast, dynamic, inventive. Even at the beginning of last season under Martino. Watch this:
Right now he just looks tired after about 60 minutes and needs to take long breaks before coming alive again for a bit of action. That simply looks like poor conditioning. Valid question of course why Alexis doesn't suffer from the same problem if it is indeed solely down to Martino's training regime. I don't have a clue.
I agree about Messi's walking tendencies even before Martino. But that was mostly the defensive job and pressing he started to neglect. Which I could somewhat comprehend. The more Xavi's domination and influence started to fade the bigger Messi's role to lead the team and thereby his ego have gotten. To the point that he is now requiring teammates to revolve around his game rather than being another (great) part of a unit. But apart from that he was still ... well, explosive, fast, dynamic, inventive. Even at the beginning of last season under Martino. Watch this:
Right now he just looks tired after about 60 minutes and needs to take long breaks before coming alive again for a bit of action. That simply looks like poor conditioning. Valid question of course why Alexis doesn't suffer from the same problem if it is indeed solely down to Martino's training regime. I don't have a clue.
Meanwhile, anything to do with Messi or the matches he's in, you're in there rooting for the opponent to win. No obsession at all
BTW, a reminder
Maradona led Napoli to two titles.
Pele is pele
Eusebio, muller scored at an even more amazing rate for a longer time.
Cryuff in his ajax days...deary me, all these blokes had amazing club careers. What distinguishes them from messi is that they also had amazing world cups. He hasn't had one.
Nope, robbens been really good and he's not playing for his place amongst football histories all time greats. Didn't say messi's been average through the tournament, just that he hasn't been anything special. Which is true however you look at it. Messi fans can cry, wince, draw up arguments but what can't be denied is that he hasn't lit this thing up. Hasn't been any better than James Rodriguez, Robben or muller. 1 assist in 3 knockout games, 0 goals in that period. Didn't have a shot at goal in the semis.
If Messi had this World Cup in 1970 when you people couldn't see 90 minute matches and would get highlights of him having 3 game winning goals, and then the run to setup the game winner in the first knockout on a beyond ordinary team.....far more so than the 86 team, or any of Peles, or Zidanes, or Cryuffs......yeah it's insane how much you have to do nowadays. Every single game, even with 3,4,5 or even 6 man defences on you....you have to score or do stuff for most of the game even if you do score.
@Cait Sith You make great points, but I still don't fully trust anything said regarding Martino and his training methods, specially with conflicting testimonies depending on the player asked. The conditioning factor is simply not unanimous for all the squad, just for a select few. Also, some writers in Mundo Deportivo and Sport have articles in El Pais, La Vanguardia and other serious papers, and they also had axes to grind with Martino, specially El Pais writer Lu Martín with whom Martino had a strong argument at a press conference. It just seems like a very convenient excuse to clear the players from any responsability and blame everything to the outsider who just left. Local press is very dangerous, remember they made Van Gaal's life impossible at Barcelona. But it could be a conditioning issue, yes. I don't agree with Messi being tired after 60 minutes, it simply is not true in his Barcelona games this season. Playing in Brazil may be what makes him (and many others) tired so soon though, for example, yesterday he sprinted at minute 118 to give a great cross that a team mate failed to score.
I think there's a big factor in his 'decline' and it's the fact that he knows he is always in the starting eleven, no matter what he does. He is always on and nobody questions him or his efforts. Guardiola liberated him of any defensive duties but he still did some work, now he doesn't even bother, not even a few meters to cut a passing line. More money? New contract. New players? He has to give his approval, etc. Too much power but no questioning. This can't be good in the long run, and Messi has been a professional player for ten years now. He needs to be forced to compete with his own teammates for a spot in the starting team, he needs to be asked to run as everybody else, and needs to be benched when he is in poor form, something that has not happened in the last 7 years or more.
One thing to keep in mind: this season Barcelona was a smashing machine during the first half of the season and the decline and bad results only came once Messi came back from injury in january or so. I don't know why, but the rest of the team was doing perfectly fine without him. Did physical training change suddenly after 6 months? I have a hard time believing that, but it could be.
I think there's a big factor in his 'decline' and it's the fact that he knows he is always in the starting eleven, no matter what he does. He is always on and nobody questions him or his efforts. Guardiola liberated him of any defensive duties but he still did some work, now he doesn't even bother, not even a few meters to cut a passing line. More money? New contract. New players? He has to give his approval, etc. Too much power but no questioning. This can't be good in the long run, and Messi has been a professional player for ten years now. He needs to be forced to compete with his own teammates for a spot in the starting team, he needs to be asked to run as everybody else, and needs to be benched when he is in poor form, something that has not happened in the last 7 years or more.
One thing to keep in mind: this season Barcelona was a smashing machine during the first half of the season and the decline and bad results only came once Messi came back from injury in january or so. I don't know why, but the rest of the team was doing perfectly fine without him. Did physical training change suddenly after 6 months? I have a hard time believing that, but it could be.
Despite the pressure and expectations on Messis shoulders and the level of attention he has gotten from opposition defenses, almost every goal argentina has scored in the group stages and in the knockouts can be traced to a key moment of brilliance from him. And now Argentina is at the WC final in Brazil. This after years of the naysayers insisting he do something big for Argentina, unconvinced by his historic levels of performances at club level. Remarkable.
Judging by some of the comments on here, it unfortunately seems like some of you think professional football is far easier than it actually is. It isn't - certainly not at a level as competitive as the world cup, certainly not for a player who is under a lot of pressure and who is constantly surrounded.
Judging by some of the comments on here, it unfortunately seems like some of you think professional football is far easier than it actually is. It isn't - certainly not at a level as competitive as the world cup, certainly not for a player who is under a lot of pressure and who is constantly surrounded.
Wrong. Messi has scored over 90 goals in a calendar year. He's broken all sorts of records at club level. And he's been a supremely creative player. He's won world player of the year 4 times. He was the heart beat of the club side hailed as the greatest ever. His consistency since the age of around 21 when he got over his injury issues on a week in week out basis is plain freakish. And he's only 27!
For me it's not as simple as ticking the club box, ticking the World Cup box, ticking the cl box. And saying "well that's the difference." It's also about the level of performance and the extent of domination. And messi has dominated to an insane extent. Pretty much everyone including saf beloved messi in the very highest tier of greatest players ever. And I repeat, all this, at the age of 27.
I don't think it's that. It's the standards he's set. He's performed like an absolute freak over the years. And were all used to it.
I wonder whether anyone will look back at this Argentina side and call it mediocre or compare it favourably to Argentina in '86. I still maintain that this is a good Argentina team and better than what Maradona played with. The strengths are actually very similar to that team in '86 - a robust defence, the key holding midfielder (Batista/Mascherano) and a talented and complimentary attacking midfielder (Burruchaga/Di Maria). It's just unfortunate that Higuain and Aguero didn't show up.
Both teams were set up to give each #10 as much of the ball as possible and in essence provide the platform for each to be a one man team, but Messi never has and never will be that. Yes he needs to see a lot of the ball to be on top of his game but when he receives it he's always looking for short bursts and quick one-twos - he's not someone who dictates the tempo and controls the game. With no-one to play these quick one-twos with the tactic of giving him the ball at every possible chance is just silly because his options then become very limited.
Maradona was completely different, he was never about the end product and he was someone that would shape attacks, control the tempo and be that one man team. That alone doesn't make him a better player but it makes him infinitely more suited to the role both he and Messi have played.
Ultimately the most unfortunate thing is we'll likely never see Messi at his very best at a World Cup.
Both teams were set up to give each #10 as much of the ball as possible and in essence provide the platform for each to be a one man team, but Messi never has and never will be that. Yes he needs to see a lot of the ball to be on top of his game but when he receives it he's always looking for short bursts and quick one-twos - he's not someone who dictates the tempo and controls the game. With no-one to play these quick one-twos with the tactic of giving him the ball at every possible chance is just silly because his options then become very limited.
Maradona was completely different, he was never about the end product and he was someone that would shape attacks, control the tempo and be that one man team. That alone doesn't make him a better player but it makes him infinitely more suited to the role both he and Messi have played.
Ultimately the most unfortunate thing is we'll likely never see Messi at his very best at a World Cup.
Being a fan does not mean being irrational with one's money.
If you want this poor Argentina side to win the World Cup over this very good German side so one player can get a bit of prestige out of it, you're not a football fan in my book. You're a star fecker.
Or Argentinian, obviously. But that ones alright.
Or Argentinian, obviously. But that ones alright.
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