Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

[RedCafeFan]

I would like to ask some people who doubt Messi so much, why can't you be objective for once? I really don't understand it..

In 2010 WC Messi was not at his peak yet, but close... he played amazingly (apart from Germany match), lead the argentinian team completely, had amazing dribbles and near misses, alot of chances for teammates, he basically did it all himself. And everyone said... Performance doesn't matter, he had a poor world cup, he scored 0 goals and Argentina was knocked out in the quarter finals, how can he be better than Maradona jeez..

In 2014 WC he scored 4 goals so far, close to being the top scorer of the whole competition, this poor Argentina team is in the finals thanks to him ( he won most matches singlehandedly apart from the last two ) and people are saying its not that great of a world cup for him, sure he scored 4 goals, sure Argentina is in the finals, but his performances were mostly not so great in some matches, they were better in 2010.

Nothing he does is good enough for you, even if his performances were all sublime, he scored a hat trick every match and Argentina would pummel every opponent to lift the trophy... you would still find a way to critique him.. he didn't lift the trophy that well.. what a poor world cup...

Seriously people, get a grip.

We are talking about a player that came to this world cup after his worst season in many years, he was injured several times, he lacks fitness ( clearly evident in the latter parts of the matches ) and is perhaps at 80% of his full capacity. He is also mostly getting very heavily marked ( tho he could have better off the ball movement sometimes, probably lack of fitness that is the problem for that ) and teams pretty much set up against him, they mostly all play very defensive and deep only because of Messi, nobody else.

Yet (these statistics are before last match ) Messi has created the most chances (21) and completed the most dribbles (39) in the 2014 World Cup. He also scored 4 goals and lead Argentina to the finals.. this poor Argentina team, no doubt they would not be here without him.

And yet you still find a way to pummel at him.. why don't you just appreciate him while you can and be objective with him... because when he is gone ur going to miss a player like him, I assure you.

 

[DM07]

I don't understand how Messi can't already be a top 3 of all time. The arguments against him here are silly. Trust me, I am one of the biggest Ronaldo fanboi here and really hope Messi doesn't win the WC.

People say Cryuff and Beckenbaur had great world cups so they are better. Well Cryuff's Netherland and Beckenbaur's Germany were among the greatest teams ever in the WC. Put Messi in Hungary '54, Brazil '70, Netherlands or Germany '74 , Brazil '82, France '98 or Spain '10, he would look every bit as good as your Peles and Cryuffs. The guy has finished in top 3 for the Ballon D'or for 7 straight years. That is ridiculous consistency. I am pretty sure he will make it 8 this year. Messi's Barca is right up there with Cryuff's Ajax and De Stephano's Madrid as the greatest club side ever. He has scored a ridiculous number of goals which rivals great goal scorers like Pele and Muller as well as a huge number of assists and creative play to rival the greatest playmakers of yesteryear. Along with this he has won 3 champions league, 5 la ligas, and four straight years as CL top scorer plus the la liga golden boot a few times as well. I agree this WC hasn't been great by his standard but if they win it, it'll be remembered as Messi's WC just as 1998 is remebered as Zidane's.

 

[Mockney]

He's definitely in the best 3 of all time for me. But considering Pele & Maradona are a shoe in for the other two spots by default, it's plausible to see how someone else could place another there, depending on what they value. Di Stefano for example.

 

[Spoony]

The Original Ronaldo reached those heights for a couple of seasons.

 

[DM07]

For me Di Stefano is someone who could make the top 3 instead of Maradona. But my opinion is rubbish because I havent seen much of either. Just that looking at their careers Di Stefano seems more consistent and a single tournament from Maradona has made him a top 3 player rather than a top 10. player.

 

[Pink Moon]

I don't understand how Messi can't already be a top 3 of all time. The arguments against him here are silly. Trust me, I am one of the biggest Ronaldo fanboi here and really hope Messi doesn't win the WC.

People say Cryuff and Beckenbaur had great world cups so they are better. Well Cryuff's Netherland and Beckenbaur's Germany were among the greatest teams ever in the WC. Put Messi in Hungary '54, Brazil '70, Netherlands or Germany '74 , Brazil '82, France '98 or Spain '10, he would look every bit as good as your Peles and Cryuffs. The guy has finished in top 3 for the Ballon D'or for 7 straight years. That is ridiculous consistency. I am pretty sure he will make it 8 this year. Messi's Barca is right up there with Cryuff's Ajax and De Stephano's Madrid as the greatest club side ever. He has scored a ridiculous number of goals which rivals great goal scorers like Pele and Muller as well as a huge number of assists and creative play to rival the greatest playmakers of yesteryear. Along with this he has won 3 champions league, 5 la ligas, and four straight years as CL top scorer plus the la liga golden boot a few times as well. I agree this WC hasn't been great by his standard but if they win it, it'll be remembered as Messi's WC just as 1998 is remebered as Zidane's.

Good post. Except the not wanting Messi to win the WC! I know you touched on the Ballon d'Or's but don't forget he won 4 consecutively. Another great feat.

Everybody goes on about Zidane and 1998 but he was even less effective than Messi has been this year before the final. If Messi turns up in the final and they win it, I don't see how anyone can deny he's top 3 of all time. He's already the best ever IMO.

 

[Mockney]

The Original Ronaldo reached those heights for a couple of seasons.

The only thing he was reaching for a couple of seasons ago was seconds.

Everybody goes on about Zidane and 1998 but he was even less effective than Messi has been this year before the final. If Messi turns up in the final and they win it, I don't see how anyone can deny he's top 3 of all time. He's already the best ever IMO.

But Zidane wasn't put in that bracket in 1998. He was put there by some in and around 2006. Where, tbf, he did do as much as Messi to get France to the final.

He also fecked it up for them. But I wouldn't put him in the top 3 anyway.

 

[Spoony]

The only thing he was reaching for a couple of seasons ago was seconds.



But Zidane wasn't put in that bracket in 1998. He was put there by some in and around 2006. Where, tbf, he did do as much as Messi to get France to the final.

He also fecked it up for them. But I wouldn't put him in the top 3 anyway.

The new Pele they said. He was all that, to be fair. The Brazilian and Messi are the only players I've seen that could be mentioned in the same breath as Maradona (and Pele...) Shame he was past his best at 23.

 

[NoLogo]

The only thing he was reaching for a couple of seasons ago was seconds.

Ouch!

 

[Srpiniata]

If you want this poor Argentina side to win the World Cup over this very good German side so one player can get a bit of prestige out of it, you're not a football fan in my book. You're a star fecker.

Or Argentinian, obviously. But that ones alright.

Because Germany have been such a powerfull and dominant side this world cup. They have been every bit as dominant as Argentina scraping victory after victory, just because the portuguese speakers collapse when they hear german doesnt mean they have been "a very good" side.

 

[Mockney]

Because Germany have been such a powerfull and dominant side this world cup.

Do a degree, yes.

They have been every bit as dominant as Argentina scraping victory after victory

Not really.

just because the portuguese speakers collapse when they hear german doesnt mean they have been "a very good" side.

It helps.

 

[Raees]

Very pretty performance, but it wasn't effective. For me Messi to enter that top 3 bracket, he has to demonstrate he can be 'effective' in a game like this final coming up.. He has a good bottom level i.e. his passing, touch, ability to glide past players in midfield is consistent in every game... his finishing too, if he gets a chance. But scoring out of nothing, I still think as the old tussles with Chelsea showed.. against well-organised sides, he struggles a tad to break them down.

 

[sammyvine]

Very pretty performance, but it wasn't effective. For me Messi to enter that top 3 bracket, he has to demonstrate he can be 'effective' in a game like this final coming up.. He has a good bottom level i.e. his passing, touch, ability to glide past players in midfield is consistent in every game... his finishing too, if he gets a chance. But scoring out of nothing, I still think as the old tussles with Chelsea showed.. against well-organised sides, he struggles a tad to break them down.

Which player playing an organised defensive team will not struggle to break them down?

Also he has done too much in his career to not be top 5. Nearly all the great players, Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradonna, Cruyff all agree so

 

[Raees]

Which player playing an organised defensive team will not struggle to break them down?

Also he has done too much in his career to not be top 5. Nearly all the great players, Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradonna, Cruyff all agree so

He deserves to be in that company, no doubt... its about just cementing it beyond debate.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Very pretty performance, but it wasn't effective. For me Messi to enter that top 3 bracket, he has to demonstrate he can be 'effective' in a game like this final coming up.. He has a good bottom level i.e. his passing, touch, ability to glide past players in midfield is consistent in every game... his finishing too, if he gets a chance. But scoring out of nothing, I still think as the old tussles with Chelsea showed.. against well-organised sides, he struggles a tad to break them down.

why does he have to do it in "a game like this final"? He's starred in two champion league final wins, scoring in each. He breaks records all the time. He's been the star in getting Argentina to the final. This obsession with messi having to ace every single thing as if his other rivals for the "greatest" did so, is silly.

 

[Brwned]

interesting. every time I see people discussing about Maradona and his days in Napoli, italian league is always mentioned as the ultimate test of player ability and the strongest european league, but now you say that the champions of that league can't be competetive in Europe. maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't make any sense.

The best league in Europe is not necessarily the league that contains the team best suited to win the Champions League. Sacchi's Milan were the kings of Europe but weren't the same dominant force in Serie A and if you go back a little further you can see that Liverpool were the kings of Europe but didn't necessarily play in the best league. Quite simply the best team in a league competition isn't always the best team in a cup competition - it's a completely different challenge. Winning the big games against the best teams in the league isn't what wins you league titles, it's consistently beating the "small" teams. Whereas of course the European Cup is all about beating the European elite. The Italian league was ultra-competitive and it's a tremendous achievement that Napoli (and Verona) won titles in that time, but in knockout games against the elite European teams they didn't have the quality to compete against a team with Hugo Sánchez, Butragueno, Sanchis, Camacho, Gordillo, Michel, Juanito etc. No-one ever said Napoli were an elite European team - that's what made their two league titles and two 2nd places finishes in 4 years such a remarkable achievement.

maradona played for barcelona

¿Por qué siempre hacer de abogado del diablo en esta discusión? Qué te parece que el Barcelona era un gran equipo cuando Maradona estaba allí?

When Maradona went to Barcelona they hadn't been in the European Cup for almost a decade and their only quality players were Schuster, Victor and Migueli. They were lightyears behind the Juventus and Liverpool teams over the early 80s.

messi was never able to pass the ball to higuain and lavezzi
that's why sabella subbed them for palacio -he recieved a great pass from messi- and maxi -he recieved a great pass from messi

and i wasnt comparing messi to xavi, i ment to say he was trying to play like xavi, that's why i said "role"

I understand what you were saying about Xavi but I think that overlooks the vast majority of what Xavi does. Xavi covers more ground than everyone else on the pitch, constantly providing passing angles for the defence, constantly finding pockets of space in behind the forwards, always looking to provide an easy pass for a team-mate and always looking to move the ball on to a team-mate in a better position, and of course you've got his defensive play on top of that. What Messi is doing is occasionally dropping deep, picking the ball up off Mascherano and playing the ball forwards. That's about 10% of what Xavi does. That's all I was saying. Messi is doing reasonably well in the role he's been forced to play but I don't think he's anywhere near 100% and I don't think his performances in the last two games deserve a great deal of credit.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Very pretty performance, but it wasn't effective. For me Messi to enter that top 3 bracket, he has to demonstrate he can be 'effective' in a game like this final coming up.. He has a good bottom level i.e. his passing, touch, ability to glide past players in midfield is consistent in every game... his finishing too, if he gets a chance. But scoring out of nothing, I still think as the old tussles with Chelsea showed.. against well-organised sides, he struggles a tad to break them down.

I don't think there will ever be a football player who won't struggle a tad to break down well organised buses parked infront of goal. He can't always break systems down. Like with the barca team hailed as the greatest ever, you can't do it everytime. That's true of all sportsmen, of all sports teams and just life in general.

 

[barros]

Because Germany have been such a powerfull and dominant side this world cup. They have been every bit as dominant as Argentina scraping victory after victory, just because the portuguese speakers collapse when they hear german doesnt mean they have been "a very good" side.

I heard the German manager is trying to convince the players that Argentina really speaks Portuguese.

 

[Bole Top]

Quite simply the best team in a league competition isn't always the best team in a cup competition - it's a completely different challenge. Winning the big games against the best teams in the league isn't what wins you league titles, it's consistently beating the "small" teams. Whereas of course the European Cup is all about beating the European elite. The Italian league was ultra-competitive and it's a tremendous achievement that Napoli (and Verona) won titles in that time, but in knockout games against the elite European teams they didn't have the quality to compete against a team with Hugo Sánchez, Butragueno, Sanchis, Camacho, Gordillo, Michel, Juanito etc. No-one ever said Napoli were an elite European team - that's what made their two league titles and two 2nd places finishes in 4 years such a remarkable achievement.

I understand that and I think it's fair. but Napoli, champions of Italy at that time, were also eliminated by Spartak in the second round and keep in mind that in those two seasons PSV and Red Star were champions of Europe, so upsets were possible. also, Napoli were record breakers in transfer market, so we aren't really talking about some skint village from Bulgaria. the best player in the history of the game has never got past the second round of champions league and maybe it's just me, but I've NEVER heard anyone even mentioning that in this discussions, while every fecking page on this topic has "needs wc title to remove any doubt" (from Messi, ofc). so, we have two players from which one has performed miracles at international stage but never did anything in champions league, and other has done it in champions league but can't do it in world cup. what I find unfair is an opinion that Maradona can be in top 3 of all time without ever being close to winning the champions league, but Messi "needs to remove doubt" even though he at least reached the final. it's bullshit. he's already there and there's no need for cementing anything.

 

[Jaytay]

Messi is one of the greatest already, can't believe people think he needs a World Cup to cement this. He is better than Cruyff, Zidane, he has surpassed Maradona and Pele. How can people put so much weight on the World Cup, it's not even the best tournament competition, I put more weight on the champions league which is a much better competition with better and tougher football. His medals and importance to Barcelona should tell you he is one of the greatest. Di Stefano didn't feature much in the World Cup but he is considered one of the greatest Argentine players.

 

[Brwned]

Like I said I think Maradona winning the UEFA Cup - which was of course a much more prestigious event 25 years ago - is enough success on the European stage in the same way Messi reaching the WC final is enough also. A year ago the idea of this Argentina team reaching the final was sniggered at by many so when the dust settles it will be seen for the huge success that it is. Along with that Messi will be recognised for being the driving force in getting them to the semis and forcing every single team they played against to park the bus and nullify their own attacking strengths, including Holland and many people's tip for player of the tournament.

There will always be people who doubt Messi's claim to greatness because he is up against

1. A player who won 2 1/2 World Cups, had an absurd goal record and was the star of the first World Cup on colour TV
2. A player who dominated the World Cup like no-one will again and carried a small team to league triumph in the toughest league in perhaps decades
3. A player who won the first five European Cups as the crown jewel in the side
4. A player who revolutionised attacking football, won three European Cups in a row and created a role without a set position in which he influenced the game from all areas on the pitch
5. A player who created a unique role in defence because of his talent alone and who again won three EC's in a row

People need to stop getting offended at the suggestion that he is not in the top three or is not the best ever or whatever. Sometimes it is intended as a slight on Messi because of some weird fanboy nonsense but sometimes it is also just recognition of the fact that there were otherworldly players in previous decades too. It is more a sign of respect to past players who are so easily overlooked rather than an attempt to criticise Messi.

 

[sammyvine]

I understand that and I think it's fair. but Napoli, champions of Italy at that time, were also eliminated by Spartak in the second round and keep in mind that in those two seasons PSV and Red Star were champions of Europe, so upsets were possible. also, Napoli were record breakers in transfer market, so we aren't really talking about some skint village from Bulgaria. the best player in the history of the game has never got past the second round of champions league and maybe it's just me, but I've NEVER heard anyone even mentioning that in this discussions, while every fecking page on this topic has "needs wc title to remove any doubt" (from Messi, ofc). so, we have two players from which one has performed miracles at international stage but never did anything in champions league, and other has done it in champions league but can't do it in world cup. what I find unfair is an opinion that Maradona can be in top 3 of all time without ever being close to winning the champions league, but Messi "needs to remove doubt" even though he at least reached the final. it's bullshit. he's already there and there's no need for cementing anything.

Well said

 

[sammyvine]

Like I said I think Maradona winning the UEFA Cup - which was of course a much more prestigious event 25 years ago - is enough success on the European stage in the same way Messi reaching the WC final is enough also. A year ago the idea of this Argentina team reaching the final was sniggered at by many so when the dust settles it will be seen for the huge success that it is. Along with that Messi will be recognised for being the driving force in getting them to the semis and forcing every single team they played against to park the bus and nullify their own attacking strengths, including Holland and many people's tip for player of the tournament.

There will always be people who doubt Messi's claim to greatness because he is up against

1. A player who won 2 1/2 World Cups, had an absurd goal record and was the star of the first World Cup on colour TV
2. A player who dominated the World Cup like no-one will again and carried a small team to league triumph in the toughest league in perhaps decades
3. A player who won the first five European Cups as the crown jewel in the side
4. A player who revolutionised attacking football, won three European Cups in a row and created a role without a set position in which he influenced the game from all areas on the pitch
5. A player who created a unique role in defence because of his talent alone and who again won three EC's in a row

People need to stop getting offended at the suggestion that he is not in the top three or is not the best ever or whatever. Sometimes it is intended as a slight on Messo because of some weird fanboy nonsense but sometimes it is also just recognition of the fact that there were otherworldly players in previous decades too. It is more a sign of respect to past players who are so easily overlooked rather than an attempt to criticise Messi.

So your point is inorder for Messi to,be great he needs to win a,world cup?

 

[Brwned]

Messi is one of the greatest already, can't believe people think he needs a World Cup to cement this. He is better than Cruyff, Zidane, he has surpassed Maradona and Pele. How can people put so much weight on the World Cup, it's not even the best tournament competition, I put more weight on the champions league which is a much better competition with better and tougher football. His medals and importance to Barcelona should tell you he is one of the greatest. Di Stefano didn't feature much in the World Cup but he is considered one of the greatest Argentine players.

The fact that Di Stefano's unmatched success at club level and particularly on the European stage still doesn't even see him rank in many people's top three reinforces the significance of success on the international stage, don't you think? If success at the club level was all that counted then he'd be the undisputed #1.

 

[Jaytay]

Well said

Amen, Ronaldo de Lima has also never won a Champions League and consider him the best player I have ever seen.

 

[sammyvine]

Amen, Ronaldo de Lima has also never won a Champions League and consider him the best player I have ever seen.

Its a team,game
I dont understand why certain acomplishements are so important

 

[barros]

Its a team,game
I dont understand why certain acomplishements are so important

Damn Maradona.

 

[Jaytay]

The fact that Di Stefano's unmatched success at club level and particularly on the European stage still doesn't even see him rank in many people's top three reinforces the significance of success on the international stage, don't you think? If success at the club level was all that counted then he'd be the undisputed #1.

How can an 7/8 game tournament be considered a better barometer to determine a players greatness. Surely being not only consistent but fantastic for a period of 7 years in the league and Champions League in which you compete with best teams puts you up there.

 

[Brwned]

So your point is inorder for Messi to,be great he needs to win a,world cup?

I'm not sure whether you're joking or not but I'll reply anyway. If Messi were to retire today he'd be considered the greatest player of all time by many people here. If he were to win the World Cup he'll be considered the greatest player of all time by significantly more. That's as far as it goes. People talk about this as if there's one answer to the question and that it's only a case of proving their answer is the right one. There is no right answer. For years opinions were split between Pelé and Maradona because they were very different players who won very different things and people value the various achievements and qualities differently. It's entirely subjective and as much as people want to go on and on and on about it on here, that will always be the case. There are some objective measures that need to be fulfilled before the majority of people will even entertain the suggestion of another player being added to the debate. Messi has done that and that's all we can say. The rest of it is down to the playing style you prefer, the significance you place on the various achievements, the emotional attachment you have to the player and a whole load of other subjective things.

For me, Di Stéfano is king because he captured my imagination in a way other modern players haven't - which ultimately is what sport is about, for me, and it's a wholly irrational thing - and he has the credentials to back it up. I think people can make arguments for Pelé, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer or Di Stéfano and have sound reasoning behind it, and what elevates them to a level above the others is the irrational and emotional aspects. It's a personal thing. I don't really care much for this incessant need to have an "undisputed GOAT".

 

[RooneyLegend]

Like I said I think Maradona winning the UEFA Cup - which was of course a much more prestigious event 25 years ago - is enough success on the European stage in the same way Messi reaching the WC final is enough also. A year ago the idea of this Argentina team reaching the final was sniggered at by many so when the dust settles it will be seen for the huge success that it is. Along with that Messi will be recognised for being the driving force in getting them to the semis and forcing every single team they played against to park the bus and nullify their own attacking strengths, including Holland and many people's tip for player of the tournament.

There will always be people who doubt Messi's claim to greatness because he is up against

1. A player who won 2 1/2 World Cups, had an absurd goal record and was the star of the first World Cup on colour TV
2. A player who dominated the World Cup like no-one will again and carried a small team to league triumph in the toughest league in perhaps decades
3. A player who won the first five European Cups as the crown jewel in the side
4. A player who revolutionised attacking football, won three European Cups in a row and created a role without a set position in which he influenced the game from all areas on the pitch
5. A player who created a unique role in defence because of his talent alone and who again won three EC's in a row

People need to stop getting offended at the suggestion that he is not in the top three or is not the best ever or whatever. Sometimes it is intended as a slight on Messo because of some weird fanboy nonsense but sometimes it is also just recognition of the fact that there were otherworldly players in previous decades too. It is more a sign of respect to past players who are so easily overlooked rather than an attempt to criticise Messi.

Wonderful post, best I've seen since joining the forum.

 

[Brwned]

How can an 7/8 game tournament be considered a better barometer to determine a players greatness. Surely being not only consistent but fantastic for a period of 7 years in the league and Champions League in which you compete with best teams puts you up there.

It's not a better barometer. That's what I hate about all this discussion - everyone takes any comment that doesn't support their view as an argument against their player. Everyone's on the defensive. It's strange. All I was saying was that if club level success as the only thing that mattered then Di Stéfano easily tops the lot. Evidently international success counts for something as well - it's not necessarily more important, but it's important. For some people it is more important and there are valid reasons to talk about the World Cup as the peak of football. That's neither here nor there though.

 

[Arruda]

@Brwned (because of your point n.º 2).

I usually trust your opinion on these matters, hence, can you counter my argument that the "outlandishness" of Napoli's Calcio wins are given some sort of revisionist overstatement? Not extremely, but sometimes it comes across as a miracle of unmatchable historical impact, which sounds a bit too much to me.

I know little more than what I can gather from looking at the league table and squads of the era but:

--- Wasn't Napoli a strong investor by that time? I see that it was a massive climb on the table from pre-Maradona years, but didn't they strengthen their squad with considerably decent players in other sectors as well?
--- Top teams seemed to lose a whole lot of points. Napoli only won half of their games in their first title. Whilst this is a testament to the competitiveness of the league, it also suggest to me that the difference from the traditional super-powers of the time to the middle-of-the-pack and bottom teams wasn't very high. In other words, it was up for grabs by a number of teams.
--- Sampdoria. Weren't they comparable to Napoli in terms of strength? Didn't they also win a title when Calcio was the toughest league around, the first of their unremarkable history? Who was their Maradona, if it was that near-impossible to accomplish without a God like him on the squad?

All this gives me the impression that Maradona, the best player in the world, tipped Napoli over the edge, something which tend to happens with the best players in the world. It seems more realistic than the romanticized version that it was such a unique thing in football history.

All this has no bearing to me on whether he should be regarded as GOAT or not. I barely watched him play, and remember very little, so am just one more of the youtube clips crowd. I was never one to seek an opinion on that matter, for which there is no universal truth to me. I just enjoy myths, and trying to put them into context.

 

[TheShedEnd]

This obsession with him having to win the World Cup is pathetic.

Pele played in the greatest Brazilian team of all time, Maradona played in a very good Argentinian one, and anyone who even thinks he 'single handedly' won trophies for Argentina and Napoli is probably under the age of 25 and grown up hearing the same old bullshit to the point they actually believe it.

At Club level, Messi is probably in a league of his own. Looks a level above his team mates, who are World Cup winners by the way, broken a silly number of scoring records, won numerous team trophies and individually, he DOES lay claim to being the best player of all time and excelled in arguably the greatest team of all time. He's not judged solely on what he offers the team statistically but what he offers to the team.

At International level it's completely different. Had Messi chosen Spain he'd be a World Cup winner right now and the same spastics slagging him off would be waxing lyrical about him. As he's not, he apparently needs to win the tournament on his own... no mention of the fact it's a fecking team sport.

Like I said earlier, 20 years down the line, there will be a new kid on the block, he'll be compared to Messi, Maradona and Pele, and we will all try and make Messi out to be some sort of demi-god who could do no wrong.

I hope Messi does help Argentina win it on Sunday, seeing the number of cry babies on here start making up excuses as to why he's still not in the fabled Maradona/Pele bracket will be amusing.

 

[TheShedEnd]

@Brwned (because of your point n.º 2).

I usually trust your opinion on these matters, hence, can you counter my argument that the "outlandishness" of Napoli's Calcio wins are given some sort of revisionist overstatement? Not extremely, but sometimes it comes across as a miracle of unmatchable historical impact, which sounds a bit too much to me.

I know little more than what I can gather from looking at the league table and squads of the era but:

--- Wasn't Napoli a strong investor by that time? I see that it was a massive climb on the table from pre-Maradona years, but didn't they strengthen their squad with considerably decent players in other sectors as well?
--- Top teams seemed to lose a whole lot of points. Napoli only won half of their games in their first title. Whilst this is a testament to the competitiveness of the league, it also suggest to me that the difference from the traditional super-powers of the time to the middle-of-the-pack and bottom teams wasn't very high. In other words, it was up for grabs by a number of teams.
--- Sampdoria. Weren't they comparable to Napoli in terms of strength? Didn't they also win a title when Calcio was the toughest league around, the first of their unremarkable history? Who was their Maradona, if it was that near-impossible to accomplish without a God like him on the squad?

All this gives me the impression that Maradona, the best player in the world, tipped Napoli over the edge, something which tend to happens with the best players in the world. It seems more realistic than the romanticized version that it was such a unique thing in football history.

All this has no bearing to me on whether he should be regarded as GOAT or not. I barely watched him play, and remember very little, so am just one more of the youtube clips crowd. I was never one to seek an opinion on that matter, for which there is no universal truth to me. I just enjoy myths, and trying to put them into context.

Indeed, and Napoli were fronted by the MaGiCa front line of Maradona, Giordano and Careca. There's no doubt Maradona added the extra bit of magic to that side, but that was a given, special player do that to teams, and Maradona wasn't the first or the last.

 

[TheShedEnd]

Messi has created the most chances (21) and completed the most dribbles (39) in the 2014 World Cup.

.... but he's passed it because he doesn't run 12km every game.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Like I said I think Maradona winning the UEFA Cup - which was of course a much more prestigious event 25 years ago - is enough success on the European stage in the same way Messi reaching the WC final is enough also. A year ago the idea of this Argentina team reaching the final was sniggered at by many so when the dust settles it will be seen for the huge success that it is. Along with that Messi will be recognised for being the driving force in getting them to the semis and forcing every single team they played against to park the bus and nullify their own attacking strengths, including Holland and many people's tip for player of the tournament.

There will always be people who doubt Messi's claim to greatness because he is up against

1. A player who won 2 1/2 World Cups, had an absurd goal record and was the star of the first World Cup on colour TV
2. A player who dominated the World Cup like no-one will again and carried a small team to league triumph in the toughest league in perhaps decades
3. A player who won the first five European Cups as the crown jewel in the side
4. A player who revolutionised attacking football, won three European Cups in a row and created a role without a set position in which he influenced the game from all areas on the pitch
5. A player who created a unique role in defence because of his talent alone and who again won three EC's in a row

People need to stop getting offended at the suggestion that he is not in the top three or is not the best ever or whatever. Sometimes it is intended as a slight on Messi because of some weird fanboy nonsense but sometimes it is also just recognition of the fact that there were otherworldly players in previous decades too. It is more a sign of respect to past players who are so easily overlooked rather than an attempt to criticise Messi.

i see, messi is against al that

but péle is not against maradona and maradona is not against pele

and distefano is not against pele or maradona or cruyff

according to you, then messi must;

1) winn 2 and a half world cups
2) bring napoli to win 2 scudettos
3) win another world cup with a bad team
4) revolutionize football
5) win the first five champions leagues

meanwhile, all the records he broke from tenths others players are not enough

it doesnt matter that neither pele, nor maradona or distefano or cruyff hasnt beat those records

is messi that has to do what the rest of the players did

come on!

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Interesting discussion. I had a thread last year(or 2 years ago), where I felt Messi may have peaked and started to regress.

I do think some people have unrealistic expectations of him.
I think he has had a good World Cup overall, but obviously if Argentina win the WC and Messi has a good/great performance, then it'll help his legacy a lot.

He has lost a bit of pace and explosiveness I feel which made him so devastating when he picked up the ball from a deeper position and ran at defenders. You could say teams mark him with 2-4 players now more than before too. I think he conserves his energy more nowadays too, but it'll definitely be interesting to see how he performs in the final.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Messi has created the most chances (21) and completed the most dribbles (39) in the 2014 World Cup.

.... but he's passed it because he doesn't run 12km every game.

Can you post the website where you got those stats from?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's not a better barometer. That's what I hate about all this discussion - everyone takes any comment that doesn't support their view as an argument against their player. Everyone's on the defensive. It's strange. All I was saying was that if club level success as the only thing that mattered then Di Stéfano easily tops the lot. Evidently international success counts for something as well - it's not necessarily more important, but it's important. For some people it is more important and there are valid reasons to talk about the World Cup as the peak of football. That's neither here nor there though.

Success is overrated when judging individuals. What matters is whether Di Stefano out-performed messi at club level.

 

[TheShedEnd]

Funny, not only is he compared to Maradona but i've now seen plenty compare him to HIMSELF. Some of the excuses people are rolling out to try and shit on what he is doing is hilarious.

Not the same player my arse. First goal he scored back from injury in January was pretty much all explosive pace and cute pass into the net. The Barcelona team in general bar Sanchez look knackered. Martino did a job on them.

Can you post the website where you got those stats from?

http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9378115/WhoScored-s-Team-Of-The-World-Cup