McTominay (Out) | announced - signed for Napoli

[Teja]

Quite clearly a pseudo "box to box" midfielder on a shit team. He's not going to contribute anything to general play but can be useful for scrappy teams as box threat from midfield. Difficult to value that though because the rest of the time he's not scoring he's mostly a net negative. I mean the below is just pathetic. He's not even useful as a squad player for us, he's basically a good "chuck of the dice" late in chaotic games, but if we want to elevate as a team/club then our #1 option for getting another goal later in games shouldn't be "let's turn this into chaos and see if Scott can bag one".

Cherry picked stats - why would you pick 3 measures of the same thing (Fwd Passes, Fwd Pass %, Key Passes, Prog Passes). He's good at several things and we all know what they are from watching him. Puts himself about, good in the air, tackles well, decent ball carrier if there's space and the game is stretched, box crasher, scores goals. You don't look to him for forward passing or creativity.

Of course United should expect more. Having Hojlund as a sub will get you most of these things and more. Doesn't mean we sell him on the cheap.

 

[Santos J]

So Napoli are signing Billy Gilmour now...

They were always signing him, it wasn't one or the other.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Cherry picked stats - why would you pick 3 measures of the same thing (Fwd Passes, Fwd Pass %, Key Passes, Prog Passes). He's good at several things and we all know what they are from watching him. Puts himself about, good in the air, tackles well, decent ball carrier if there's space and the game is stretched, box crasher, scores goals. You don't look to him for forward passing or creativity.

Of course United should expect more. Having Hojlund as a sub will get you most of these things and more. Doesn't mean we sell him on the cheap.

He quite literally doesn’t “put himself about”. Just look at how shit his defensive actions are. And those stats aren’t cherry picked, they are what the site assumes is all of the most important aspects of a midfielder.

Thanks for giving us the FBref green bar porn that basically just says he scores/shoots more than majority of midfielders though.

 

[LDUred]

He quite literally doesn’t “put himself about”. Just look at how shit his defensive actions are. And those stats aren’t cherry picked, they are what the site assumes is all of the most important aspects of a midfielder.

Thanks for giving us the FBref green bar porn that basically just says he scores/shoots more than majority of midfielders though.

This. McTom as a 'get stuck in' midfielder is one of the biggest myths in football. Lee Dixon in the Fulham game was going on about the same thing - that SMT is energetic, busting a gut, 'putting in a shift' etc. It's basically because he has the physical attributes of a number 6.

He's a number 8 who's biggest strength is making late runs but, of course, he's not nearly good enough in the build up for a top four side.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

This. McTom as a 'get stuck in' midfielder is one of the biggest myths in football. Lee Dixon in the Fulham game was going on about the same thing - that SMT is energetic, busting a gut, 'putting in a shift' etc. It's basically because he has the physical attributes of a number 6.

He's a number 8 who's biggest strength is making late runs but, of course, he's not nearly good enough in the build up for a top four side.

Yeah I mean he got stuck in decently 4 or 5 years ago. He's pretty useless now defensively apart from winning headers. There's countless clips of him sort of just jogging back last season after play had passed him by easily

 

[Insanity]

The stat attack this summer has been crazy. Never seen anything like this on here before. Every page there are stupid fecking graphics. Even for players we have watched for nearly a decade. It's madness.

Are there new user friendly stat sites that folks have discovered or is there another reason for this?

 

[Glorio]

Cherry picked stats - why would you pick 3 measures of the same thing (Fwd Passes, Fwd Pass %, Key Passes, Prog Passes). He's good at several things and we all know what they are from watching him. Puts himself about, good in the air, tackles well, decent ball carrier if there's space and the game is stretched, box crasher, scores goals. You don't look to him for forward passing or creativity.

Of course United should expect more. Having Hojlund as a sub will get you most of these things and more. Doesn't mean we sell him on the cheap.

We need to snap this player up quick! Elite

 

[Teja]

He quite literally doesn’t “put himself about”. Just look at how shit his defensive actions are. And those stats aren’t cherry picked, they are what the site assumes is all of the most important aspects of a midfielder.

Thanks for giving us the FBref green bar porn that basically just says he scores/shoots more than majority of midfielders though.

Did you look through the list at all? I'm happy to respond to objections. Blocks, Challenges lost, aerials won, % of dribblers tackled, all solid. There's some nuance in how you use metrics, if you evaluate McTominay on metrics where you expect KdB and Bruno to do well, it's obvious he'll look bad. This is further complicated by the tactical situations in which we use McTominay and how we use him. He starts at #10 but the instructions are to look for him in the box, not to run play through him and use him as a creative outlet. If you're at 8th - 10th percentile of touches across the whole pitch, you're not going to magically have 80th percentile progressive passing stats.

"The site" thought these metrics are the gold standard for midfielders is a shit excuse. Scrub through the data, put in the work and build a narrative yourself.

 

[Ish]

Quite clearly a pseudo "box to box" midfielder on a shit team. He's not going to contribute anything to general play but can be useful for scrappy teams as box threat from midfield. Difficult to value that though because the rest of the time he's not scoring he's mostly a net negative. I mean the below is just pathetic. He's not even useful as a squad player for us, he's basically a good "chuck of the dice" late in chaotic games, but if we want to elevate as a team/club then our #1 option for getting another goal later in games shouldn't be "let's turn this into chaos and see if Scott can bag one".

Damn, is that stats chart real?

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[December_16]

Pay up and he’s yours! Interest mounts to nought if they’re unwilling or unable to pay.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Damn, is that stats chart real?

Yes

Just for fun here's his comparison to Gallagher (who many compared him with as worthy of commanding a similar fee last year and this year) and then Bruno (just to show that our actual #10 STILL DOES MORE DEFENSIVELY AND WINS MORE DUELS)

(For reference these are all percentiles, and it's compared to other midfielders)

Definitions of each category are below:

Duels won, %​

The percentage of duels won by a midfielder.

Defensive Actions, per 90​

Sum of tackles, interceptions and ground duels won; normalized per 90 minutes.

Progressive Carries, per 90​

Runs with the ball that significantly advance the team's position; normalized per 90 minutes.

Forward Passes, per 90​

The number of passes attempted by a midfielder, excluding backwards and sideways passes; normalized per 90 minutes.

Forward Pass, %​

Pass completion (completed/attempted), excluding backwards and sideways passes.

Key Passes, per 90​

Open-play passes that directly lead to a goal-scoring opportunity; normalized per 90 minutes.

Progressive Passes, per 90​

Completed passes that help the team significantly advance towards the opponent's goal; normalized per 90 minutes.

 

[VP89]

Oh shut up Dharmesh you transfer slut

 

[RDCR07]

Oh shut up Dharmesh you transfer slut

It’s amazing how shit he is yet acts like he is super ITK.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Oh shut up Dharmesh you transfer slut

This guys trying to rival Romano.

 

[In Rainbows]

How is there still that myth that he busts a gut? It's quite obvious he doesn't when you actually pay attention to him. His best defensive actions come on set pieces, and when he's generally in the box. That part doesn't require a lot of running or tackling technique. It's quite congested and it suits his physicality.

 

[Ish]

Yes

Just for fun here's his comparison to Gallagher (who many compared him with as worthy of commanding a similar fee last year and this year) and then Bruno (just to show that our actual #10 STILL DOES MORE DEFENSIVELY AND WINS MORE DUELS)

(For reference these are all percentiles, and it's compared to other midfielders)

Definitions of each category are below:

Duels won, %​

The percentage of duels won by a midfielder.

Defensive Actions, per 90​

Sum of tackles, interceptions and ground duels won; normalized per 90 minutes.

Progressive Carries, per 90​

Runs with the ball that significantly advance the team's position; normalized per 90 minutes.

Forward Passes, per 90​

The number of passes attempted by a midfielder, excluding backwards and sideways passes; normalized per 90 minutes.

Forward Pass, %​

Pass completion (completed/attempted), excluding backwards and sideways passes.

Key Passes, per 90​

Open-play passes that directly lead to a goal-scoring opportunity; normalized per 90 minutes.

Progressive Passes, per 90​

Completed passes that help the team significantly advance towards the opponent's goal; normalized per 90 minutes.

Honestly, forget stats, we’ve watched him enough to (sort of) know all of the above. I said last year, his best position in the squad should’ve been sub striker (we only had one fit striker in Hojlund) who you throw into the box when we’re chasing a goal. At best, he’s a ‘10’ because he lacks a lot of basics you expect from a midfielder.

 

[Sandikan]

In a summer where the likes of Berge and Skipp are going for 20-25m, it's unbelievable we can't ship McTom for 25-30m

 

[Rolaholic]

In a summer where the likes of Berge and Skipp are going for 20-25m, it's unbelievable we can't ship McTom for 25-30m

We're the only club that rates him at that range I'm afraid

 

[Alemar]

In a summer where the likes of Berge and Skipp are going for 20-25m, it's unbelievable we can't ship McTom for 25-30m

That’s probably because footballing world rates Berge and Skipp higher than him. Probably not without reason

 

[croadyman]

We should accept that.....if they agree to loan us Osimhen for the season too.

See him ending up at Chelsea which is annoying, however apparently on mental wages and we are trying to change our structure

 

[Footyislife]

He quite literally doesn’t “put himself about”. Just look at how shit his defensive actions are. And those stats aren’t cherry picked, they are what the site assumes is all of the most important aspects of a midfielder.

Thanks for giving us the FBref green bar porn that basically just says he scores/shoots more than majority of midfielders though.

I get what your are trying to say, but there are many CM roles and Fbref doesn't distinguish them.

You're criticizing a roaming CM who's role is to make late runs as a goal scoring threat isn't in the right position defensively? Only way he could do that if he's the Flash. You could argue that he simply doesn't offer enough link up play to justify playing large minutes, but then again with a properly built squad he won't play as a starting 8 and instead is a dynamic CM threat for those games where we just can't build up play and need to play more direct to score.

Also the idea that he's bad defensively is just no supported by the stats. He's extremely active in the defensive penalty area with headers/clearances, and elite in not letting anyone past him.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

I get what your are trying to say, but there are many CM roles and Fbref doesn't distinguish them.

You're criticizing a roaming CM who's role is to make late runs as a goal scoring threat isn't in the right position defensively? Only way he could do that if he's the Flash. You could argue that he simply doesn't offer enough link up play to justify playing large minutes, but then again with a properly built squad he won't play as a starting 8 and instead is a dynamic CM threat for those games where we just can't build up play and need to play more direct to score.

Also the idea that he's bad defensively is just no supported by the stats. He's extremely active in the defensive penalty area with headers/clearances, and elite in not letting anyone past him.

Defensive attributes also relate to how good his positioning is on the pitch which could possibly kill opponent attacks a lot earlier than they could fully materialize. McTominay is total opposite of that as he is always out of position.

We have seen it for 6 years now. He is not going to magically become something now.

 

[Footyislife]

Defensive attributes also relate to how good his positioning is on the pitch which could possibly kill opponent attacks a lot earlier than they could fully materialize. McTominay is total opposite of that as he is always out of position.

We have seen it for 6 years now. He is not going to magically become something now

Yes, he's only "out of position" cause he's literally in the position Ten Hags expects and not the one you do... Can't make late runs in the box and then magically teleport back to play defense.

With McFred the issue was he was just not suited to play in a double pivot. Defensively he's not agile enough to cover the gaps Fred would leave when trying to press. And offensively he just doesn't have the skill set to build up play which is why we looked so bad.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I get what your are trying to say, but there are many CM roles and Fbref doesn't distinguish them.

You're criticizing a roaming CM who's role is to make late runs as a goal scoring threat isn't in the right position defensively? Only way he could do that if he's the Flash. You could argue that he simply doesn't offer enough link up play to justify playing large minutes, but then again with a properly built squad he won't play as a starting 8 and instead is a dynamic CM threat for those games where we just can't build up play and need to play more direct to score.

Also the idea that he's bad defensively is just no supported by the stats. He's extremely active in the defensive penalty area with headers/clearances, and elite in not letting anyone past him.

In a properly built squad, we should be aiming for better midfielders and goalscorers in place of McTominay, which is the whole point of the criticism especially because he is of a value asset to us now. He's not worth keeping short or long term both for what he does on the field and financially because his sale will give us potentially much better options.

As for the bolded, that's the crux of his contributions, in both penalty boxes but nowhere to be seen in between. No one can deny he's most effective in both boxes, the issue is that what he does best is not good enough for us based on what I said above.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Yes, he's only "out of position" cause he's literally in the position Ten Hags expects and not the one you do... Can't make late runs in the box and then magically teleport back to play defense.

With McFred the issue was he was just not suited to play in a double pivot. Defensively he's not agile enough to cover the gaps Fred would leave when trying to press. And offensively he just doesn't have the skill set to build up play which is why we looked so bad.

IMO we don’t need a player like him who is a ghost throughout the game but becomes active before running into the box. Contributes nothing as a midfield player and if our attackers start scoring goals then we wouldnt need those runs from the midfield. I would advocate for a far better allround midfielder who can contribute to build up.

 

[Footyislife]

IMO we don’t need a player like him who is a ghost throughout the game but becomes active before running into the box. Contributes nothing as a midfield player and if our attackers start scoring goals then we would need those runs from the midfield. I would advocate for a far better allround midfielder who can contribute to build up.

Agreed, that's why we have Mainoo now.

He's very valuable mismatch as a squad player. Most EPL teams are countering the high press the top sides are playing with more mobile/less physical CBs and stretching the pitch vertically which leaves gaps in midfield.

Which is where McTominay with his strength, pace, height, forward runs often finds himself great chances to score. Having players who can offer a different type of threat when a game isn't going to plan is priceless as we saw last year.

 

[Longlivekeano]

I think he will be good as a false 9/targetman. Can make late runs to score goals, useful for headers and scraps in set pieces. Something like a better Weghorst. Can also be very useful as a CB/ but he is def not a top class midfielder

Passing, dribbling, dictating tempo and tackling simply not in his game.

 

[honirelandboy]

I think he will be good as a false 9/targetman. Can make late runs to score goals, useful for headers and scraps in set pieces. Something like a better Weghorst. Can also be very useful as a CB/ but he is def not a top class midfielder

Passing, dribbling, dictating tempo and tackling simply not in his game.

Great post, sums him up.

Be fine for a mid table club looking for a goal in the last 15 minutes or to start in midfield for a bottom half club.

 

[Hammondo]

Cherry picked stats - why would you pick 3 measures of the same thing (Fwd Passes, Fwd Pass %, Key Passes, Prog Passes). He's good at several things and we all know what they are from watching him. Puts himself about, good in the air, tackles well, decent ball carrier if there's space and the game is stretched, box crasher, scores goals. You don't look to him for forward passing or creativity.

Of course United should expect more. Having Hojlund as a sub will get you most of these things and more. Doesn't mean we sell him on the cheap.

Most of that isn't what teams look for in a cm though.

 

[Plant0x84]

This guys trying to rival Romano.

Harsh, at least Fab has actual true information. Dharmesh tweets are literally words without meaning.

 

[NZT-One]

The stat attack this summer has been crazy. Never seen anything like this on here before. Every page there are stupid fecking graphics. Even for players we have watched for nearly a decade. It's madness.

Are there new user friendly stat sites that folks have discovered or is there another reason for this?

Go home Grandpa. Its just stats. Every fan can decide on which level of depth he feels alright - some will stay in shallow waters, only counting goals and points and yellow and red cards. Other fans go deeper.

...This is further complicated by the tactical situations in which we use McTominay and how we use him. He starts at #10 but the instructions are to look for him in the box, not to run play through him and use him as a creative outlet.

Yes, he's only "out of position" cause he's literally in the position Ten Hags expects and not the one you do... Can't make late runs in the box and then magically teleport back to play defense.

You guys miss something - if you want to excuse his shortcomings with "the instructions" (and obviously they have an effect on individual stats) you also have to remind yourself that his "great goal return" and "attacking contribution" is also based on that.

We've seen the guy for years now - we have tried him as DM, tried him as CM - there was no time where he established himself in one position. During that time he played CB for Scotland. While playing further forward for them now. So apparently, they see the same conundrum. McTominay is a very limited footballer. One that had a good season goal wise and therefor with a high stock that we should capitalize on.

Honestly, forget stats, we’ve watched him enough to (sort of) know all of the above. I said last year, his best position in the squad should’ve been sub striker (we only had one fit striker in Hojlund) who you throw into the box when we’re chasing a goal. At best, he’s a ‘10’ because he lacks a lot of basics you expect from a midfielder.

I'd rather call him a rather uninspiring striker or 2nd striker.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Even if he goes to Fulham for such fee, he will be just a bench player. Thats his level and why Fulham or anybody is not willing to pay too much.

Also watch him slowly disappear over a couple of years. Cairney, Smith Rowe, Pereira, Lukic are all superior footballers and I am sure there will be more they will add soon after.

We should just take 20+ 5 in add ons, if thats on the table and run. You can buy dozen replacements directly from the championship right away. Obviously this money will cover partly Ugarte deal.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Monger]

I agree with club not rushing to get rid of scott on the cheap. I think he offers more to the squad than most.
Low salary, no moaning, good for a goal off the bench, brings physicality and by all account well respected by players and coaches.
I'd far rather get rid of Eriksen as i see him offering very little this season even from the bench and he is on a significant salary.

Selling Eriksen on the cheap makes far more sense.

 

[Rolaholic]

So Napoli are wrapping up the Lukaku deal which should mean that Osimhen should 100% be sold before the deadline...

They'll have fresh cash on hand in short order so hopefully they can find the suitor for him soon and Conte can finally get his other man

 

[kaku06]

I bet the cheap cnuts don’t fork out anything other than loan for mctominay. They can splash €45m on that 31yr old donkey Lukaku but nothing to United for Mctom.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

I agree with club not rushing to get rid of scott on the cheap. I think he offers more to the squad than most.
Low salary, no moaning, good for a goal off the bench, brings physicality and by all account well respected by players and coaches.
I'd far rather get rid of Eriksen as i see him offering very little this season even from the bench and he is on a significant salary.

Selling Eriksen on the cheap makes far more sense.

But selling Eriksen won't generate much money whether it's 'on the cheap' or not, as the max we'll get for him is pretty miminal given his age, 1 year on his contract, and on the outskirts of the squad. We'll pretty much give him away if he leaves, just to save on the wages.

McTominay is one of the few dispensable players that we can actually get decent money for. The others are the likes of Sancho, Antony and Casemiro, but there doesn't seem to be many suitors for those.

So while I'd also be happy, in theory, to keep McTominay as a useful squad player, and offload the likes of Sancho and Antony instead, he's one of the very few dispensable ones we seem capable of selling - albeit maybe at a lower fee than we'd have wanted. So we may well have to sell him at the £20-25m range rather than the £25-30m one, if we do need at least one more decent sale before the end of the window.

 

[Markolan]

Di Marzio just announced on his TV show that Napoli today offered €25m for McTominay, they think MUFC player is better than Gilmour so probably they'll try to sign Scott first. Soon the tweet..

EDIT:

 

[-Supreme-]

Di Marzio just announced on his TV show that Napoli today offered €25m for McTominay, they think MUFC player is better than Gilmour so probably they'll try to sign Scott first. Soon the tweet..

EDIT:

Euros? So that’s £21m, was expecting more considering we have rejected £20m from Fulham.