[Dan_F]

It's situational.

Not all angles are equal. The worse the angle, the more likely it is that you should let them shoot. If you are going to block, sometimes it should be a late block when you're more sure they're already committed to shooting and can't bail out. You also should consider the attacking player and if they're likely to have the necessary skill, talent and awareness to dummy the shot and cut back in.

From what I recall, Dalot was in a much better position to score than Gakpo, but I'd have to see it again, and he was much less likely to pull off the cutback onto his right foot, VVD timed his move perfectly when he felt Dalot was committed to shooting.

It's a good point though that our other defenders should have been more ready for Gakpo cutting back onto his right, they were reactive instead of proactive.

Mate, they are making these decisions in split seconds. This isn’t a 1v1 where the defender has time to think about who the player is and which way to show him.

Gakpo shoots from there and De Ligt gets the block in, everyone is praising him. I’ve seen Gakpo use his left plenty to shoot in that position previously.

 

[Dominos]

Mate, they are making these decisions in split seconds. This isn’t a 1v1 where the defender has time to think about who the player is and which way to show him.

Gakpo shoots from there and De Ligt gets the block in, everyone is praising him. I’ve seen Gakpo use his left plenty to shoot in that position previously.

That's what footballers are paid to do, make split second decisions on a football pitch. The best players make a higher % of correct decisions than players who aren't as good.

 

[NewGlory]

Mate, they are making these decisions in split seconds. This isn’t a 1v1 where the defender has time to think about who the player is and which way to show him.

Gakpo shoots from there and De Ligt gets the block in, everyone is praising him. I’ve seen Gakpo use his left plenty to shoot in that position previously.

100% It was a brilliant play by Gakpo, from start to finish. Hard to blame anybody. Sometimes attack is just that good and there's nothing anybody can do about it

 

[Dominos]

I... What?

You can stay on your feet and tackle or block. In fact in most cases thats what you should do. Sliding in is rarely needed and carries a lot more risk

All he needs to do is try to block the ball across while staying on his feet, we had a good defensive line and if he gets the ball across because he didnt slide tackle its fine - yes we saw one bad outcome of diving in like that in getting done by the skill but it could have been just as bad if he didnt reach the ball and took the man out giving away a penalty. He doesnt need to do it and if we concede in that situation because Gakpo is able to put the ball across to a Liverpool player to tap in, other United players have had the chance to deal with it and failed. Its not all on him.

By diving in he took himself out of the game and made it easy

Yes that's a fair point, a more non-commital block attempt is an option.

But I've just watched it back, and I'd go back to the point I always make about pace. A quicker centre back would have been in a slightly better position to block the potential left footed shot/cross and therefore wouldn't have resorted to a desperate lunge to feel like he could get a successful block in.

 

[Dan_F]

That's what footballers are paid to do, make split second decisions on a football pitch. The best players make a higher % of correct decisions than players who aren't as good.

Yes and they’re not going to get it right every time but it doesn’t mean it was a bad decision.

Garnacho scores that goal and I can guarantee not a single person on this forum mentions bad defending, it would be about Garnacho’s quality.

 

[sherrinford]

The criticism for the first goal is quite harsh as he had been put in a disadvantaged position by Ugarte, who should have stayed with Gakpo but abandoned him in favour of trying to move into a more familiar area.

De Ligt is then just desperately trying to recover. Defenders can be easily embarrassed in those circumstances.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Mate, they are making these decisions in split seconds. This isn’t a 1v1 where the defender has time to think about who the player is and which way to show him.

Gakpo shoots from there and De Ligt gets the block in, everyone is praising him. I’ve seen Gakpo use his left plenty to shoot in that position previously.

"That's his job" - Roy Keane

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

He's decent defender when on his game, but he hasn't lived up the the hype from teenage days at Ajax.

He's accumulated a lot of transfers fees!

He reminds of Eric Dier at times. He's another one who regressed quite young.

 

[arthurka]

From what I've seen of him, I'd have to agree. Very poor defending for their first. Once he committed, he was out of the game.

That was just diabolical defending. Gakpo had no shot or pass on for his left foot. Just pressure the player and let him fire his left foot directly into the side netting. Still fuming after seeing this again it's terrible defending. The penalty was just unlucky.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes and they’re not going to get it right every time but it doesn’t mean it was a bad decision.

Garnacho scores that goal and I can guarantee not a single person on this forum mentions bad defending, it would be about Garnacho’s quality.

Because this a United forum and he isnt scoring against us

We will focus on our players not the opposition.

 

[Dan_F]

Because this a United forum and he isnt scoring against us

We will focus on our players not the opposition.

That’s not how you should analyse football really but I’ll leave you to it. Not every goal needs to lead to some kind of blame on a defender.

It was a great bit of play from Gakpo unfortunately and I hope De Ligt continues to try and block shots.

 

[Ekeke]

That’s not how you should analyse football really but I’ll leave you to it. Not every goal needs to lead to some kind of blame on a defender.

It was a great bit of play from Gakpo unfortunately and I hope De Ligt continues to try and block shots.

Ah you're lost. You thought this was a professional analyst football forum without any bias

This is a Manchester United forum, where everyone is concerned with Manchester United

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

That’s not how you should analyse football really but I’ll leave you to it. Not every goal needs to lead to some kind of blame on a defender.

It was a great bit of play from Gakpo unfortunately and I hope De Ligt continues to try and block shots.

It's a funny one really cause VVD completely committed himself to a desperate lunging slide to block a possible Dalot left footed shot, fortunately for VVD, Dalot doesn't quite have the attacking instincts of Gakpo.

 

[Dan_F]

It's a funny one really cause VVD completely committed himself to a desperate lunging slide to block a possible Dalot left footed shot, fortunately for VVD, Dalot doesn't quite have the attacking instincts of Gakpo.

Yep. I said it in a post further up when someone tried to say that the likes of VVD don’t dive in

Ah you're lost. You thought this was a professional analyst football forum without any bias

This is a Manchester United forum, where everyone is concerned with Manchester United

Like I said, I’ll leave you to it.

 

[criticalanalysis]

It's a funny one really cause VVD completely committed himself to a desperate lunging slide to block a possible Dalot left footed shot, fortunately for VVD, Dalot doesn't quite have the attacking instincts of Gakpo.

The subtle difference is that Dalot was definitely going to shoot due to his momentum and it being a pretty opportune moment/angle i.e closer to the 6 yard box IIRC. Gakpo didn't really have the momentum or angle.

They are not the same opportunities. De Ligt sold himself and it's not the first time he's done it with us. I recall he did that against Southampton earlier in the season.

One of his qualities is that he's bit of a fighter and is willing to throw himself where it hurts but he needs more guile than just lunging in.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Big shame as his first 65 mins were so so good. Was so aggressive in the duels and didn’t give them a sniff.

He then lost it a bit after the goal and the harsh pen. Had to come off.

 

[bb8]

What do you mean? He's played well this season. You prefer our other CB's over years gone by? Rojo, Bailly, Lindelof?

He's the 4th highest paid CB in the Premier League at the moment (and Maguire is 5th). If you're comparing him to Lindelof you've lost the plot. He's not been horrible (though he was pretty bad today), but needs to be far better to live up to his contract.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The subtle difference is that Dalot was definitely going to shoot due to his momentum and it being a pretty opportune moment/angle i.e closer to the 6 yard box IIRC.

I was actually screaming for Dalot to dummy, seemed blindingly obvious VVD was going all in for a lunging tackle.

 

[VP89]

He's the 4th highest paid CB in the Premier League at the moment (and Maguire is 5th). If you're comparing him to Lindelof you've lost the plot. He's not been horrible (though he was pretty bad today), but needs to be far better to live up to his contract.

He's a very good defender and generally capable of solid performances week in week out. He's been pretty much a 7/10 player all season for us which is very good given the instability weve had, and given it's his first season. He's easily worth the outlay.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

I wish he could do some strength training and put on some muscle.

He seems a bit soft as a defender.

Good enough as a squad player for sure- but im unsure how happy he would be if he was sitting on the bench like a lindelof whilst 3 CB's maybe playing ahead of him in the future.

 

[kafta]

He has one awful trait for a CB, and that is clumsiness. He makes the occasional rash decision, like that hand yesterday. He has some very good qualities too, but if he cant sort out those mistakes, im not sure what his future at united will be.

 

[Quinzaine]

I think he's the elephant in the room right now. He's been mediocre since he's joined. Slow in and out of possession, uninventive and often sloppy passer, can be very rash in his tackling and his defensive positioning is questionable. This isn't reactionary, I've been puzzled for weeks when I've gone online and seen projected United XI's for next year and he's one of 4/5 in the current squad who make the cut. If he's regularly starting for us next year and it's not injury related then something's gone very wrong.

Type of player you want to like because he does give his all every game and has come with a good reputation having played for Bayern & Juve but the reality is he's not as good as Maguire which is alarming given what we paid for him.

 

[RedIan]

Made a couple of errors yesterdayy that both lead to goals. He dived in at Gapo instead of showing him inside. Then the hand ball. However i still see him as a better player than Maguire.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I mean, you only have to go up a few posts to see discussion on this specific quote?

No, just low on general for how many passes/touches the players get.
Tackles are not that prevalent in football, even with high pressing teams.
Traps are usually set to force turnovers via mistakes rather than tackles, which tend to be made defensively as a last option.

Why is it low though? You've said something but your reason doesn't make sense.
It's been very constant throughout modern football i.e. last decade there's no difference despite how much football has changed in that period.

De Ligt was ok vs Pool, as mentioned previously as an RCB he's exposed and got exposed because of his issues with mobility but the handball was just super unlucky, though it was a penalty.

 

[Champ]

I mean, you only have to go up a few posts to see discussion on this specific quote?

Why is it low though? You've said something but your reason doesn't make sense.
It's been very constant throughout modern football i.e. last decade there's no difference despite how much football has changed in that period.

De Ligt was ok vs Pool, as mentioned previously as an RCB he's exposed and got exposed because of his issues with mobility but the handball was just super unlucky, though it was a penalty.

There was a prime example of why people don't need to tackle all the time and it was from De Ligt for Gakpos goal.
Whilst yes it wasn't a tackle as such, but had De Ligt stood up and not gone to ground then he would have had control of the situation.
Same rules apply for a tackle, once youv e commited yourself to a tackle, you have to win it, otherwise more times than not you are out of the game at that point.
This is the reason why tackles are not more prominent in the game, they have a lower percentage chance of gaining the desired outcome, whereas showing an attacker the outside lane, or into an already covered channel is more effective at a) keeping the opponents nullified, and b) eventually winning the ball via a mistake.
It really is basic coaching really. Use your body, and only commit if it's a last option or the chance to win the ball is very high.

 

[bb8]

He's a very good defender and generally capable of solid performances week in week out. He's been pretty much a 7/10 player all season for us which is very good given the instability weve had, and given it's his first season. He's easily worth the outlay.

He's "easily worth it"? Sounds like you think he's worth even more then. Given he's already the fourth highest paid CB in the Premier League, you must think he's the best CB in the league or something?

 

[poleglass red]

He did okay, some nice robust tackling in 1st half. His problem was though he made 2 mistakes which led to both of their goals, that's what happens when you play the top teams, mistakes get punished. To be fair to him, I don't think that's his best position, he needs to play the middle of a back 3, unfortunately we can't play Maguire there, so De ligt gets shifted out wide. Yoro's cameo yesterday was excellent, his pace is perfect for that role. Maybe we see him play there for a run of games and let Maguire and De Ligt fight it out over the central role. I think De Light wins that battle, but in fairness Maguire did well yesterday.

 

[tomaldinho1]

There was a prime example of why people don't need to tackle all the time and it was from De Ligt for Gakpos goal.
Whilst yes it wasn't a tackle as such, but had De Ligt stood up and not gone to ground then he would have had control of the situation.
Same rules apply for a tackle, once youv e commited yourself to a tackle, you have to win it, otherwise more times than not you are out of the game at that point.
This is the reason why tackles are not more prominent in the game, they have a lower percentage chance of gaining the desired outcome, whereas showing an attacker the outside lane, or into an already covered channel is more effective at a) keeping the opponents nullified, and b) eventually winning the ball via a mistake.
It really is basic coaching really. Use your body, and only commit if it's a last option or the chance to win the ball is very high.

The irony being that was an example, with hindsight, where he should have tackled is not lost on me. You write like you have done an online course or something - you can't apply general rules of defending i.e. shepherding a striker in a channel to that situation. Everyone over the age of ten who plays football gets the general idea of not committing and standing players up etc. That is last gasp recovery defending from De Light, he has 2 options - try and block an anticipated shot or go for the ball and risk the penalty.

Players get done all the time in those situations because the reality is the attacker holds all the power, you can go on youtube and find loads of clips of 2 or 3 defenders all getting done in the same moment because you aren't thinking 'I shouldn't commit here' when they are meters from your goal, you're either trying to block their shot or trying to win the ball and risk giving a penalty away. My issue with this specific case is De Ligt knows Gakpo super well and, as many fans have pointed out, playing a right footed LW means should you find yourself in that situation (which is bad no matter what) you have to prevent him getting it onto his right foot. This is coached at semi professional level, there's no way players at this level aren't getting all this info on their opponents pre game and in preparation (even ignoring he knows him).

 

[VP89]

He's "easily worth it"? Sounds like you think he's worth even more then. Given he's already the fourth highest paid CB in the Premier League, you must think he's the best CB in the league or something?

No I don't think he's worth more. I think it's not really a question that he's worth what we pay.

It's his first year and the system around him was ripped up and changed. I don't think many CBs can operate better than he did under those circumstances. In fact I am struggling to think of one outside of say VVD.

Take Gabriel, when he joined Arsenal he was bang average for a long time and often too clumsy. Now he's a key cog in a settled system.

 

[Rapsel]

I wish he could do some strength training and put on some muscle.

He seems a bit soft as a defender.

Good enough as a squad player for sure- but im unsure how happy he would be if he was sitting on the bench like a lindelof whilst 3 CB's maybe playing ahead of him in the future.

Funny. Ajax supporters are convinced he bulked up too much at Juventus which made him a lesser defender than he was at Ajax.

 

[The Hilton]

I think a lot of the criticism on here has been over the top.

He isn't to blame for the first goal, he made a last ditch lunge to try to prevent Gakpo from scoring from the exact same position Martinez had scored 7 minutes earlier, but the mistakes happened earlier when Mazraoui and to a lesser extent Ugarte left a gaping hole on our right making the ball through to Gakpo simple.

For the second, he's a bit unlucky as well as clumsy, as he's throwing himself to his right to try to get something on the cross, and his arm is in a somewhat natural position given what he's trying to do. Unfortunately he doesn't read the header and gets his hand in the way, stonewall penalty.

The much more fair criticism I think is that, after those two incidents, he went to pieces a little bit, the pressure seemed to get to him and he went from assured and confident to panicky.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

He's the 4th highest paid CB in the Premier League at the moment (and Maguire is 5th). If you're comparing him to Lindelof you've lost the plot. He's not been horrible (though he was pretty bad today), but needs to be far better to live up to his contract.

This is the key detail that the "he's been okay" crowd appear to be missing.

 

[Sandikan]

It's good having 2 aerial beasts for set pieces, but we all know you really want to only play 1 as the central guy.
He's been decent, bar for the goals yesterday!

 

[Kostov]

He committed stupidly for the goal, and that destroyed his game. Luckily we didn't lose but it has happened to the best of defenders.

 

[Champ]

The irony being that was an example, with hindsight, where he should have tackled is not lost on me. You write like you have done an online course or something - you can't apply general rules of defending i.e. shepherding a striker in a channel to that situation. Everyone over the age of ten who plays football gets the general idea of not committing and standing players up etc. That is last gasp recovery defending from De Light, he has 2 options - try and block an anticipated shot or go for the ball and risk the penalty.

Players get done all the time in those situations because the reality is the attacker holds all the power, you can go on youtube and find loads of clips of 2 or 3 defenders all getting done in the same moment because you aren't thinking 'I shouldn't commit here' when they are meters from your goal, you're either trying to block their shot or trying to win the ball and risk giving a penalty away. My issue with this specific case is De Ligt knows Gakpo super well and, as many fans have pointed out, playing a right footed LW means should you find yourself in that situation (which is bad no matter what) you have to prevent him getting it onto his right foot. This is coached at semi professional level, there's no way players at this level aren't getting all this info on their opponents pre game and in preparation (even ignoring he knows him).

Had De Ligt stood up and not dived in that goal doesn't happen, it's quite simple and basic defending.
He made the wrong decision, defenders are taught to stay on their feet as much as possible, and yes this is from a course, it's from a licensed coaching course, from professional coaches, for professional coaches!

It's simple basic rules of defending, stay on your feet, only hit the deck as a last option, De Ligt in that moment didn't have to dive in at all, it was a mistake and was picked up after the game by nearly every ex professional analysing the game.
And yes, of course you'll see videos of similar incidents, they are also mistakes made by the defending players, doesn't mean it's right because other people made the same errors!
You'll also see many many more incidents of defenders standing their ground and intercepting the ball in similar situations without pro actively tackling! In fact you'll see that in the very same game yesterday....

 

[groovyalbert]

He's top drawer but has lapses in games which cost us. He's a bit like the Pogba of CBs.

 

[didz]

I didn't feel him diving across was a bad decision at all. I may need to watch it again but it looked like he covered the outside while his team mate (Licha?) covered the inside with the dive behind him. Gakpo had exactly one angle to score and he made it. It happens.

Gotta be more aware for the penalty though. Everyone knows you just can't have your arm up like that, nevermind at Anfield.

 

[Maluco]

He is quality, and still young enough to be coached. He has bags of experience at the very top level and has come into an absolute mess. He deserves time. He will go on to be a very valuable player for us.

 

[groovyalbert]

On a side note, with him and Onana here we now have more players from the Ajax 16/17 Europa League team than were playing for us at the time.

 

[Marwood]

He's the 4th highest paid CB in the Premier League at the moment (and Maguire is 5th). If you're comparing him to Lindelof you've lost the plot. He's not been horrible (though he was pretty bad today), but needs to be far better to live up to his contract.

Read the post I was referring to. Sarcastically thanking ETH for his signing.

My point was his signing is a considerable step up from the previous decades attempts at getting a CB.

Talking as if we've been lumbered with another dud when we haven't. He's a good player.

I think posters sometimes look back on Rio, Vidic, Pallister etc and think they never got done, never made a bad decision. Far from it.