A good number of our fans truly have awful takes on football
Deary me....
Deary me....
4
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 31
- Clean sheets
- 9
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 4
Zirkzee aside, I thought our Summer business for once ended up very good. Can see De Ligt, Yoro and Ugarte as starters for very a good United side.
Which is what people struggle to get their head around when we're so shit, they assume the signings have made us worse.
What has made us worse is opposition being more clinical (compared to last season when we let them have 30 shots every game), making moronic decisions/mistakes (eg Bruno, Martinez, Onana) at key times in games, being even more wasteful with a chronic lack of goals, and lack of legs being even more apparent in the system.
At one point not so long ago Onana had the most clean sheets in the league. De Ligt, Mazraoui, Yoro and Ugarte will all be decent to good signings for us when it all settles down and we get better players around them.
For a 40m-45m outlay and more than 200k in wages you want a top defender not someone who is "just okay" or "can be a solid player". The wages he is on are obscene and would be in the top bracket for central defenders in the world, and yet we have this big club journeyman who is only "not top of our issues"
This has been a general problem with our recruitment. In our state we are not able to attract top top talent and for some reason instead of filling those positions with highly touted young prospects simply go for big club rejects, who then fail to really impress and deadwood a season or two down the line.
Yoro is a good start towards that but I rather we went for another young prospect at a higher fees and decent wages than a player whose limitations we already know. There isn't one area where he really excels. Doesn't have pace, isn't very good on the ball, doesn't have immaculate positioning, isn't top class in the air...'Decent' is his middle name when we should have gone for someone more than decent.
Do you guys see him as a regular starter in a top PL team?
Absolutely, think he’d slot right in at Chelsea or Liverpool.
Not sure I can say the same with any confidence about any other player in our squad right now.
I wonder why Juve and Bayern let this genius go.
We know the Juve story don’t we? They didn’t want him gone but he forced their hand.
As for Bayern, well they also let Gravenberch go, and he’s currently playing for the best side in the country.
Think we also know plenty of top players have been let go by clubs, not even considering the obvious ones (KDB, Ödegaard, Cole Palmer, Salah), even our latest tormentor Isak was thrown by the wayside from Dortmund.
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He is not a top player, though. He is someone who was over-hyped at 18 years old and didn't go on fulfill his potential. Like I mentioned in the previous post, he doesn't have any stand out qualities but is on top player wages. Somehow Juve and Bayern were able to get rid of him while recouping some of the money they invested in him. However, looks like he will be ETH's parting gift to us that we get to keep for a long time.
Let's hope we can get a better player to play LCB in the summer, Yoro develops as a central CB and he is happy to be a squad player, as that is his limit.
Couldn’t disagree more, he’s been by far our best CB this season and can hold his head high, whereas players like Martinez, who’ve previously been hyped as amongst the best, have failed catastrophically.
He’d comfortably slot in at CB for any big side.
Hmm, I think De Ligt has looked like what his career to this point suggests he is: someone who is part of the rotation at a top team, but primarily a back up to the stellar starters.
If you're at your very best as a side and you're CL-challenging level, you're happy with De Ligt coming off the bench, but he's not likely to be your starter. I also don't think he's the type that takes mediocre up to special. He's sort of just there, middling and decent, not outstanding or able to give you the MotM performances of the elite CB's. A steady 6ish out of 10 with the odd 5 or 7 sprinkled in.
You can see why he comes in, and you can also see why clubs aren't particularly bothered about letting him go.
The question I've had with him ever since he left Ajax is whether he can be an elite defender and realise his once touted promise. To that end, I don't see it with him, but it's OK enough to see if he can get there for a few years whilst we work towards sorting ourselves out, I guess.
If we're ever back to being a perennial feature in the CL and a genuine PL challenger, I don't expect to see De Ligt being a starter from whatever pool of CB's have got us there in the first place, unless he's capable of a massive step up in quality that his career to date hasn't suggested is on the cards, but we'll see.
If you're at your very best as a side and you're CL-challenging level, you're happy with De Ligt coming off the bench, but he's not likely to be your starter. I also don't think he's the type that takes mediocre up to special. He's sort of just there, middling and decent, not outstanding or able to give you the MotM performances of the elite CB's. A steady 6ish out of 10 with the odd 5 or 7 sprinkled in.
You can see why he comes in, and you can also see why clubs aren't particularly bothered about letting him go.
The question I've had with him ever since he left Ajax is whether he can be an elite defender and realise his once touted promise. To that end, I don't see it with him, but it's OK enough to see if he can get there for a few years whilst we work towards sorting ourselves out, I guess.
If we're ever back to being a perennial feature in the CL and a genuine PL challenger, I don't expect to see De Ligt being a starter from whatever pool of CB's have got us there in the first place, unless he's capable of a massive step up in quality that his career to date hasn't suggested is on the cards, but we'll see.
Exactly.
I don't know what Martinez being not up to the standard has do with him. When you pay a player 200k+, you expect them to be excellent, not better than your shit x,y, or z.
He "comfortably" doesn't, that's why he keeps getting moved on.
He comfortably won leagues in Holland, Italy and Germany as a starting CB and was named in the Bundesliga team of the year when he won it, so yes, he comfortably does.
I brought up Martinez because he’s a settled player who’s been here for 3 years now and who has previously been touted as one of the best around, however this season, in the clusterfeck surrounding him, he has catastrophically failed. De Ligt on the other hand, at a new club, even in this clusterfeck has managed to still look like a good CB.
”Keeps”… happened once (Juve wanted him to stay).
Happened once to Isak, Ödegaard, KDB, Gravenberch, Salah, Palmer etc etc etc. It means less than nothing, feck me, Cantona got moved on continuously man, even by Leeds
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Agreed
They keep winning the league and they think, you know what, we are going to move our established CB on. Coool!He comfortably won leagues in Holland, Italy and Germany as a starting CB and was named in the Bundesliga team of the year when he won it, so yes, he comfortably does.
I brought up Martinez because he’s a settled player who’s been here for 3 years now and who has previously been touted as one of the best around, however this season, in the clusterfeck surrounding him, he has catastrophically failed. De Ligt on the other hand, at a new club, even in this clusterfeck has managed to still look like a good CB.
”Keeps”… happened once (Juve wanted him to stay).
Happened once to Isak, Ödegaard, KDB, Gravenberch, Salah, Palmer etc etc etc. It means less than nothing, feck me, Cantona got moved on continuously man, even by Leeds
Like Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, the laughing smiley is the last refuge of a stupid post on Redcafe.
KDB, Salah, Palmer - these players had not established themselves at Chelsea and City. They moved to lesser clubs, established themselves and then moved to bigger clubs to contribute in their success. Isak came from a smaller club. Granvenberch's move to Bayern never worked out and his time under Klopp wasn't rosy either. We don't know yet whether it is just a purple patch under Slot or has he finally fulfilled his potential.
Very poor examples and a pretty embarrassing post.
You don’t laugh at Leeds for moving on Eric? O….. k
And why do you keep saying “they”? Are you continuing to pretend that Juve wanted rid, despite us knowing that absolutely wasn’t the case?
Good talk, buddy.
Yep, considering just how shocking just about everyone else have been (barring 1 or 2 exceptions), it’s odd that people are picking MDL to criticise. Also, with Evans, Lindelof and Maguire all probably leaving, we need the depth at the back anyway.
Yep. Same with Mazraoui, by the way. If we manage to repeat that kind of summer transfer window a few years in a row, and maybe do some clever business in January, we could get back to the top 4 quite fast I think. Trouble is, it might be more difficult to find forwards of a similar quality to Ugarte, De Ligt, and Mazraoui at the right price.
It is not criticism when I exactly knew what we are getting with him. It's frustration that we have once again invested big in a player who doesn't help move the needle by much.
Forget de Ligt, if we sign a player for 45m+5m and on 220k/week - what do you expect? A depth option or a player who can be a starter and a long term solution to the position?
I think hes been OK for his first season but I think he's not better than Harry in a 3.
Wage is a bit high but honestly, in a year when someone like Kilman also cost more than we paid (what, £38m or so we paid for MDL?) for him, I don’t think it’s bad business at all. And there’s no way of knowing for sure if MDL will just end up being depth option or a starter going forward. That’s probably where you and I differ around his role.
Honestly, for the price and wage I’d expect a good starting CB, and I’m absolutely convinced that he and Yoro will be part of our future back line, especially if we keep playing 3 CBs.
How often do you see Van Dijk tackle? A tackle cant always be prevented ofcourse, but good central defenders van minimize the amount of situations where they need a tackle as a last resort to save a tight situation.. You can prevents needing a lot of tackles with proper positioning...
Same as goalkeepers and saves where they need large dive and stretch themselves completely.. vd Sar has done that a lot less than other keepers of way lower quality.. Ofcourse there are always scenario's where a keeper needs to strech himself to get the ball from a corner, but with good positioning good keepers minimize the amount of times they need it..
Tackles arent unimportant, but they are more important for lower quality central defenders than for higher quality central defenders.
So we are now measuring players by two of the greatness PL ever? To buy VD would cost you north of 100m? Let's not do that....
He looks good to me you can see his qualities even in a brand new system with a bunch of hopeless players around him.
Nar, just different types of defenders.
Puyol was brilliant, Vidic, Terry, Ramos, Desailly, Kompany… all top class defenders, all loved a tackle.
Many of the great partnerships have a mix of the Rio/Van Dijk type and a combative CB to complement them.
I didn't say he was ok or just solid. I think he's a good player and nowhere near the top of the list of shit.
I think this is a very fair assessment.
This guy is one of the few bright spots in a pool of crap. Our best CB comfortably.
He's been good overall, those saying he needs to be outstanding it's an unnecessary demand and expectation. If a defender is going largely unnoticed it's not necessarily a massive problem and likely indicative of them doing their job amicably.
Martinez is standing out like a sore thumb because he's not doing his job and likely needs replacing in summer. The contrast between an underperforming Martinez and De Ligt is night and day in this example. As said if Amorim goes with Maz, De Ligt and Yoro in central defence I think the overall defensive performance improves.
Martinez is standing out like a sore thumb because he's not doing his job and likely needs replacing in summer. The contrast between an underperforming Martinez and De Ligt is night and day in this example. As said if Amorim goes with Maz, De Ligt and Yoro in central defence I think the overall defensive performance improves.
As with every performance thread, United have so many fires all over the pitch, it makes individual analysis very difficult.
But I have been happy with him so far.
But I have been happy with him so far.
He's been meh.
Yeah I think if we have to move towards bedding Yoro in as the RCB and De Ligt established in the middle if we're ever gonna get out of this slump. Mazraoui is our best bet for now as LCB but needs looked at as a priority with someone in the Branthwaite mould but better on the ball.
I like Maguire but we can't play he and De Ligt together in a back 3 if we want to move away from being shit. He needs to be let go and we need a speedy and mobile replacement in for him.
He is not been outstanding but he isn't a problem, fitness and form permitting you would hope to naturally phase him out as his contract expires with Yoro or another stepping into his role. He is not a problem that needs addressing now or in the next two or three windows, Steady Eddie!
I am sure Kilman is not even on half the wages de Ligt is on. The overall cost to club per year when taking in account the amortization and wages for de Ligt would be much much higher than Kilman. It was bad business we needed a legitimate starter with Varane leaving and 'Aggy, Evans and Lindelof coming to end of their stay here. The worst part is that in a two man defense (which was the idea when we bought) he didn't pair up well with any of our current CB's due to his lack of pace. His ability on the ball is no better than Maguire either. The same limitations are too evident in a 3 at the back system too.
Let me put it this way, he is not a problem but he is not a solution either. We may be preempted and replaced Lindelof with a slightly better player.
World class defenders over the past 20 years have been mentioned throughout the MDL discussions. How can you expect to have World class players when we are firmly established as a europa league level team? I agree, MDL has his limitations but he's the best we can hope for at this moment. Coupled with exciting talents like Yoro, this is our only hope of kicking on and hopefully in a few seasons, with the backing of the manager and a hell of a lot of good fortune, we can stabilise, develop good club standards and grow once more.
As for the wages we pay these "level 2" players, we all agree the club are awful when it comes to fees and salaries. That's thanks to our global popularity and agents knowing how to play our club during negotiations.
I used to think as Manchester United we could just throw money at it and click our fingers and we would be back. We are going to have to do it the long, hard way.
It gives me confidence seeing teams like Villa and how they have developed over the last 3 years. In Europe, teams like Atalanta and Leverkuesen also look like they know what they are doing with season after season of growing. The thing with United is, if they somehow can find a similar path over the next couple of seasons, their ceiling of growth is higher than all these clubs.
As for the wages we pay these "level 2" players, we all agree the club are awful when it comes to fees and salaries. That's thanks to our global popularity and agents knowing how to play our club during negotiations.
I used to think as Manchester United we could just throw money at it and click our fingers and we would be back. We are going to have to do it the long, hard way.
It gives me confidence seeing teams like Villa and how they have developed over the last 3 years. In Europe, teams like Atalanta and Leverkuesen also look like they know what they are doing with season after season of growing. The thing with United is, if they somehow can find a similar path over the next couple of seasons, their ceiling of growth is higher than all these clubs.
He is a much, much better player than lindelof ffs.
Maguire and De Ligt have been our best CB this season. They are doing fine. They can't do anything when you have another LCB who refused to jump or mark an attacker in 6 yards box. Also, have a GK that prone to blunders. Last but not least, playing with midfielders where their legs are long gone.