Mats Hummels

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Two years? That would include most of the 2011/2012 season, the one, when he was overall Dortmund´s best player, because he was actually the only player who played on top level the whole season, showing very good consistency. You could count the number of glaring mistakes on one hand in over 40 games.

You wanna know, why no such questions were asked last season? Because everyone who followed his career up to this point knew what was happening: He had an off season, especially in the league meaning he performed far under his normal level. The four seasons prior to that ranged from good (2008/2009;2009/2010) to great (2010/2011) to amazing (the above mentioned one).

If he would have generally bad positioning, a player with only average speed as him would normally need to resort to a lot of (tactical) fouls to cover up the positioning, right? Problem is, that he is probably the top level CB with the least amounts of fouls, yellow and red cards. In fact, until the last league game vs. Gladbach, when he needed to try a risk tackle because his teammates screwed up, he was never sent off by the referee in his career. Hell, he did not even receive a ban because of bookings before.

Nobody can tell me, that you can become such a high rated CB (be it by fan opinion, the press or experts), if you have bad positioning and be so fair at the same time.

It would also not explain, why his performance in this season at club level was absolutely fine so far. He had one bad half vs. Frankfurt, when he was rightfully subbed off at half time, but otherwise his season is rock solid. He is even the CB with the best tackling stat of the whole league. If he would be so error prone as suggested he would not even start, because they have a class CB, the Greek International Sokratis, on the bench.

But be free to correct me on this and show me lets say five scenes of this season, when he displayed bad positioning. Should be easy, given that he played over 1000 minutes so far for Dortmund and seemingly has mistakes in most of his games.

I meant 2012/2013, and I'll talk about this season later on. Even in his best season, Hummels still made positional mistakes - that is to be expected because he was still maturing. Away from that, when it has come to the massive games in European fixtures, he's made some catastrophic mistakes. He had about two good games in Euro 2012 and then turned to mediocre vs. Italy. He's a player than can be naive and has shown his naive side frequently since Borussia Dortmund last won the league.
I see "tactical fouling" as an irrelevant factor in this debate. This is a poor point IMO because Hummels' mistakes often lead him too far astray to actually make any tactical fouls, so that point doesn't make sense when you look at it this way. See this, for example:


In Europe, Hummels has been an utter disaster. Just before I go on, I wasn't really criticising him for this season because it's early on, but if you want me to dig out an example - I'll also post examples last season - then look at the first video below. Hummels leaves his man - for the first goal. At one point, he was next to him, but then he loses focus and Schmelzer has to go out and attack the ball. In the second video, Hummels isn't quick enough to block the cross and Benzema scores - if you want, you can say he's partially responsible. For the second goal, he doesn't connect well to clear away the cross... and again, Real Madrid scores. In the same match, he made a couple of errors in the first half, one of which led to Ozil with a one-on-one. And in the Champions League final, he was a disaster. Most of Bayern Munich's attacks came down his side. There are more positional calamities I can post, but I don't want to spend my time cutting clips just to prove a point.




In your third last paragraph, you say that he couldn't have become such a talked about centre-back if he had bad positioning. Just to clarify, I did not say Hummels is mediocre, but what I did allude to is his poor positioning these days. You can become a highly rated centre-back, but still have positional errors. I also don't like how you're telling me to show you the positional errors he's made this season, which I didn't really argue. If you want it that way, I can give you torrents and if you don't let your bias dictate the outcome, then you will see that he's also made some poor errors this season.​
Hummels is a very good centre-back, but at the moment, he is nowhere near the best or Europe's elite list. His fall has been abrupt and he looks off the pace, but that does not mean he's average, or whatever. It means that he's not the finished product.​
 
Hummels is a very good centre-back, but at the moment, he is nowhere near the best or Europe's elite list. His fall has been abrupt and he looks off the pace, but that does not mean he's average, or whatever. It means that he's not the finished product.​
I'm not Hummels' biggest fan either, but that list is incredibly short right now. A few centerbacks live on reputation of former glory but are also incredibly inconsitent and error-prone for a while, a few young players haven't played at the top level long enough to judge them like Varane for example. Quality centerbacks are rare, very rare, these days. And with all the pressing going on, centerbacks need to be so much more than just good defenders, especially if they play in a team with a high defensive line, then you can't really compare them with more traditional centerbacks anyway. Just look how the highly praised Juventus backline looked like incompetent schoolboys against Bayern, not because they faced a worldclass striker, but because a hard working forward didn't stop harassing them.

I don't really disagree with your points in general, but you're very very harsh on Hummels and exaggerate in a few points, especially if we compare him to all the other centerbacks in his age group out there and accept the fact, that centerbacks in high defensive lines will always make more positional mistakes because they need to cover so much more space.
 
I read that Bild article, seems like there are a lot of leaps in it. I don't see Rosell going in for Hummels, too similar to Piqué plus I don't see them spending €35 million on any defender atm

They really should, though. Given that they're willing to fork out €35m+ every season on luxury attacking players, and the defence is still as under-strength as ever.
 
They really should, though. Given that they're willing to fork out €35m+ every season on luxury attacking players, and the defence is still as under-strength as ever.

If they were going to spend that much, they should've done it for Silva, back in 2012 - they balked, he walked to PSG who also were willing to pay his enormous wages. Marquinhos was a player that would've ticked all the right boxes but he too was lost out due to PSG paying through the nose.

Now that Tata is in, I suspect they will move for a South American player but a lot will depend on how Puyol does between now & the winter break. If he holds up well, they won't move for anyone...if not, it'll be cheaper options. But as Balu pointed out already, how many world class & young CBs are out there that would fit in alongside Piqué? Much less be available

But there aren't any luxury attacking players who aren't key members of the squad, this isn't the capital club. Neymar, Alexis & Cesc all play and play a lot.
 
To be honest MoneyMay, those examples of Hummel's poor positioning weren't very good. The first one was a slip up which cost them a goal yes (nothing to do with positioning), but you can't blame him for not intercepting the ball for the next, that's Subotic's fault for not tracking him back ; the second goal wasn't cleared yes, but weren't the Right back at fault too for not covering the cross back in and the other defenders for just standing around dumbfounded when the ball came in? He could be blamed for not trying harder against Bayern's first, but for the next at 88 minutes he was tracking Robben back, thought Pizczek(?) could tackle Ribery but was found wanting as Franck had turned him and slipped it to Robben. By that time Hummels was too stretched to tackle him.

Like Sphaero said, his 2011-12 season was amazing, and to me it established him as one of the elite now. Who could you honestly say is better than him right now? Badstuber? Thiago Silva? Kompany? He's probably top 5 in the world right now, and that's as elite as it gets.
 
To be honest MoneyMay, those examples of Hummel's poor positioning weren't very good. The first one was a slip up which cost them a goal yes (nothing to do with positioning), but you can't blame him for not intercepting the ball for the next, that's Subotic's fault for not tracking him back ; the second goal wasn't cleared yes, but weren't the Right back at fault too for not covering the cross back in and the other defenders for just standing around dumbfounded when the ball came in? He could be blamed for not trying harder against Bayern's first, but for the next at 88 minutes he was tracking Robben back, thought Pizczek(?) could tackle Ribery but was found wanting as Franck had turned him and slipped it to Robben. By that time Hummels was too stretched to tackle him.

Like Sphaero said, his 2011-12 season was amazing, and to me it established him as one of the elite now. Who could you honestly say is better than him right now? Badstuber? Thiago Silva? Kompany? He's probably top 5 in the world right now, and that's as elite as it gets.
No idea who's top 5, but I think Silva is the only standout centerback right now. Everyone else makes too many mistakes, isn't really suited to different styles or good enough to be worth changing the tactics and built a strong defense around him. The strangest thing is, not even Italian centerbacks are really strong and can be considered elite. It's just a lack of quality at the moment and all that pressing and quick transition football means that all of them get exposed regularly.
 
Vidic
Hummels
Ramos
Silva
Kompany

In no particular order
 
No idea who's top 5, but I think Silva is the only standout centerback right now. Everyone else makes too many mistakes, isn't really suited to different styles or good enough to be worth changing the tactics and built a strong defense around him. The strangest thing is, not even Italian centerbacks are really strong and can be considered elite. It's just a lack of quality at the moment and all that pressing and quick transition football means that all of them get exposed regularly.


I used to think Chiellini was, and perhaps he still is. But you're right: there is a surprising lack of world class CBs at the moment.
 
His father, his agent and Michael Zorc, Dortmund's director of football, have denied the rumours. Didn't make sense anyway. Can't see Dortmund selling anyone bar Gündogan, if he doesn't sign a new contract.
 
I don't think they would want to sell either, especially since there is no need to rush with Hummels. But who knows what promises they made when he extended his contract.
 
Vidic
Hummels
Ramos
Silva
Kompany

In no particular order

Would probably agree with that. Hummels' positioning lets him down sometimes but his anticipation is great and his ability with the ball make him an asset for any of the top clubs in Europe.

What about Dante or Boateng? Both are pretty good too imo.
 
It only shows the paucity of top centre halves if Ramos gets a look in in a top 5.
 
Ramos is an idiot but has incredible recovery pace so often makes up for mistakes and doesn't get sent off as much anymore.
 
Ridiculous how people still rate Ramos that high.
 
To be honest MoneyMay, those examples of Hummel's poor positioning weren't very good. The first one was a slip up which cost them a goal yes (nothing to do with positioning), but you can't blame him for not intercepting the ball for the next, that's Subotic's fault for not tracking him back ; the second goal wasn't cleared yes, but weren't the Right back at fault too for not covering the cross back in and the other defenders for just standing around dumbfounded when the ball came in? He could be blamed for not trying harder against Bayern's first, but for the next at 88 minutes he was tracking Robben back, thought Pizczek(?) could tackle Ribery but was found wanting as Franck had turned him and slipped it to Robben. By that time Hummels was too stretched to tackle him.

Like Sphaero said, his 2011-12 season was amazing, and to me it established him as one of the elite now. Who could you honestly say is better than him right now? Badstuber? Thiago Silva? Kompany? He's probably top 5 in the world right now, and that's as elite as it gets.

I disagree completely with that. Those mistakes that I've shown you are clear as day (sorry for the cliché). And in the final, he was awful. Like I said, Bayern Munich should have scored earlier. And just because he was world class in 11/12 doesn't mean he's in the elite bracket. It's like saying Nani is world class because he's had two great seasons. I think he's one of the best, but he's not had the consistency to match his talent. Re elite bracket: funny you mention Badstuber because, before his season ended last season, he was the most in form centre-back in the league. Right now, it's too early to say he's in the elite bracket. He's still made positional mistakes this season... And I rate him highly, but that doesn't stop me from criticising his weaknesses. I think he'll finish the season off much better than last, but he's escaped criticism for too long.
 
I disagree completely with that. Those mistakes that I've shown you are clear as day (sorry for the cliché).

I´m not going to try to find excuses for Hummels´ last season, because it was simply not a good one (my problem with your initial post was the time frame of 2 years), but it does not change the fact that some scenes by you were poor ones. Blaming Hummels for not intercepting the fast cross to Benzema midway is simply nitpicking. If he clears that, it is a world class action, but it does not make it a mistake that he could not reach that. If I count such scenes as mistakes, then I can find a long list for every defender in the world, including Thiago Silva, the current stand out CB on the planet.

I actually agree that one strong season does not make a CB world class, but it also works both ways. One poor season does not show general weaknesses. There were no problems what so ever with Hummels´ positioning the four seasons prior to the last one and I still stand by my opinion that Hummels has stabilized in this season defensively (he is not as efficient offensively as in 2011/2012, yet). He and Schmelzer were overall our best defenders so far in this season.

The only scene from this season you showed was the goal by Higuain. This scene was explained by Klopp and the players afterwards. Schmelzer was responsible for marking Higuain the whole game at set pieces and crosses, while Hummels defended either space or against a Napoli defender. This was at best a misunderstanding between the two, originating from the former, which was understandable given the fact that they were understaffed in the box then, because Subotic just came back running into the box from treatment (later than necessary which led to Klopp´s outburst and rightful ban). The real mistake in the scene was allowing the cross to be taken that way, though.


Last but not least, if you truly think that Hummels escapes criticism, you simply don´t follow the German media enough or at all.
 
Thiago Silva is the only genuinely world class centre back around and i'll add Kompany to that list too though he is injured too often. The rest like Balu said all have weaknesses, there are not that many top quality defenders around nowadays. Ramos has always hidden behind his amazing physical gifts for me, I don't think he is a great natural defender.
 
As for top 5, the likes of Hummels and Dante have made a few errors and but I think I'd still have Dante. Not sure about Hummels on current form. Vidic's shaky start to the season also puts him out for the moment.

Currently I'd name 4 - Silva easily number 1, then Kompany, Benatia and Dante.

Benatia has conceded 1 goal in 7 Serie A games and has been outstanding, carrying his last season's form to this one.
 
I'm not Hummels' biggest fan either, but that list is incredibly short right now. A few centerbacks live on reputation of former glory but are also incredibly inconsitent and error-prone for a while, a few young players haven't played at the top level long enough to judge them like Varane for example. Quality centerbacks are rare, very rare, these days. And with all the pressing going on, centerbacks need to be so much more than just good defenders, especially if they play in a team with a high defensive line, then you can't really compare them with more traditional centerbacks anyway. Just look how the highly praised Juventus backline looked like incompetent schoolboys against Bayern, not because they faced a worldclass striker, but because a hard working forward didn't stop harassing them.

I don't really disagree with your points in general, but you're very very harsh on Hummels and exaggerate in a few points, especially if we compare him to all the other centerbacks in his age group out there and accept the fact, that centerbacks in high defensive lines will always make more positional mistakes because they need to cover so much more space.

I agree with your sentiments regarding the changing role for centre backs, so do you think it's really possible for them to be as effective as they were back in the day? Should the goal posts for measuring how good they are be changed?
 
As for top 5, the likes of Hummels and Dante have made a few errors and but I think I'd still have Dante. Not sure about Hummels on current form. Vidic's shaky start to the season also puts him out for the moment.

Currently I'd name 4 - Silva easily number 1, then Kompany, Benatia and Dante.

Benatia has conceded 1 goal in 7 Serie A games and has been outstanding, carrying his last season's form to this one.

Really? a few good games with Roma and he's in the top 4 CBs in the world.
 
Barzagli, Bonucci, Chiellini... these 3 are world class on their day.
Agreed and it's been that way since Conte took over.

So it's not actually about ability? Looking good, because the system you play in protects you way more than other centerbacks and because the style of football in the league doesn't expose your weakness as much, is enough to be called worldclass?

I agree with your sentiments regarding the changing role for centre backs, so do you think it's really possible for them to be as effective as they were back in the day? Should the goal posts for measuring how good they are be changed?
I don't think you can really change that in people's minds, unless teams in England start to play with high defensive lines and intense pressing as well and see how the role of the defenders need to change for that. Though, I still believe it's a weak bunch of centerbacks right now, which makes it all look even worse than it should be.
 
Kompany is a good player but he makes hell off a lot of mistakes for a world class centre back.
 
So it's not actually about ability? Looking good, because the system you play in protects you way more than other centerbacks and because the style of football in the league doesn't expose your weakness as much, is enough to be called worldclass?


I don't think you can really change that in people's minds, unless teams in England start to play with high defensive lines and intense pressing as well and see how the role of the defenders need to change for that. Though, I still believe it's a weak bunch of centerbacks right now, which makes it all look even worse than it should be.

Don't misinterpret or misread what I said to suit an agenda, that's just juvenile. I said they have been world class since Conte took over. That's very different to saying player x is world class. Also, where did I say it's about - or not about - ability? Now, to answer your question, it clearly is about ability. You need three very good centre-backs to play in a three-man back-line. Why has it worked well for them? Obviously because the roles suit them. Barzagli and Bonucci were inconsistent until the change in system. And it's not actually because it protects them more, that's a straw man argument. Making many tackles and interceptions debunks this myth. Take a look here.
 
You're saying they are worldclass for more than 2 years now, but they aren't worldclass players? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. And yes, Barzagli and Bonucci were inconsistent, before Conte took over, that basically proves my point. They play their roles brilliantly but they aren't elite centerbacks right now.
 
You're saying they are worldclass for more than 2 years now, but they aren't worldclass players? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. And yes, Barzagli and Bonucci were inconsistent, before Conte took over, that basically proves my point. They play their roles brilliantly but they aren't elite centerbacks right now.

No. It does make sense. I think I made the point earlier, that you can have a world class season, or two, but it doesn't mean you're world class. I think some Manchester United fans will say this about Nani. Since Conte took over, they have been world class, as in they've consistently displayed performances that fit the world class criteria (if you want to call it that). By default, you could probably only argue over Chiellini being a world class player. I was trying to make a link with Conte's system and how that's benefited them, as were you, but you downplayed their performances, as though they don't get "stuck in". I also didn't mention them being in the "elite bracket"... But it looks like we won't be agreeing at all on this subject.
 
Maybe it was a poor choice of words by me, but it's just weird to name them as consistently playing on worldclass level. I've seen around 20 games of Juve since Conte took over and not once have I seen them play on a comparable level to what Hummels showed consistently in both title winning seasons for Dortmund. Add to that some really underwhelming performances by that Juve defense in the CL and it's obvious that you're nitpicking on Hummels and treating him ridiculously harsh.
 
Kompany is a good player but he makes hell off a lot of mistakes for a world class centre back.


Does he? His mere presence improves the defence. He is the best defender in the league for me.
 
In my knowledge Barzagli has been Juve's best Cb over last two seasons.

In last season, without a shadow of the doubt. I would say that Bonucci has been better than Chiellini too.

Haven't watched Juve this season so don't know about this season. But always found it interesting when people claim that Chiellini is Juve's best defender or he's a world class.
 
As for top 5, the likes of Hummels and Dante have made a few errors and but I think I'd still have Dante. Not sure about Hummels on current form. Vidic's shaky start to the season also puts him out for the moment.

Currently I'd name 4 - Silva easily number 1, then Kompany, Benatia and Dante.

Benatia has conceded 1 goal in 7 Serie A games and has been outstanding, carrying his last season's form to this one.

Well, then by the same logic Sturridge, Ramsey are world class players. And Michu was world class in the beginning of last season.

Benatia is doint well, no doubt about that, but early to say that he is one of the best only after 2 good months.
 
Benatia has been impressive for two years not two months.
 
Honestly don't see how people can say Benatia, Chiellini and Barzagli are better than Ramos. All have their faults, Ramos does a lot more positive stuff.
 
Just looked at Ramos's record. 113 caps in a side that has won two Euros and a World Cup, first choice defender in a side that concedes very few goals.
 
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