Mats Hummels

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FCBarca said:
So you don't consider them trophies, gotchya. You want to use your own subjective criteria for what constitutes success to make your own argument - you don't need me then

Plus, I'm thinking Thiago is going to lap Cesc sooner than later
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:wenger:

Are you really trying to imply that winning Supercups and such can make for a successful season? Last year you were trying to convince us that Barcelona had a better year than Madrid because they won 3 trophies compared to Madrid's 1. It's nonsense, you have to look at the trophies - league and European Cup are major trophies, domestic cups (FA Cup, Copa del Rey etc.) are also important but not quite the same level, all the Supercup and particularly UEFA Supercup and domestic supercups aren't really that important (CWC is different but it's still not quite at the same level as CL or league).

He said they didn't improve you straightaway, you posted a picture of Xavi with lots of trophies, I told you they had nothing to do with them and now you're trying to say you had a great season because you won Supercups. You probably still live in a world where you had a better season than Madrid who beat you to the league title quite comfortably last year. :wenger: I know you can't win major trophies every year, no one does, but at least have the decency not to try to spin your season around so it looks like it was a successful one - you lost both major trophies, it's far from success. We won the FA Cup and Charity Shield in 2004, it was a poor season because we were far behind in the league and lost to Porto in CL.

What's with Barca's fans obssession with trophy numbers anyway? Including one trophy for two straight seasons because it helps improving the record. I got a friend who supports Barca and he keeps telling me they won 8 or 9 trophies in a year when I don't even realise there are that many trophies going around. Football's based on two major competitions - league and Champions League - and one big competition that's domestic cup, all the other trophies are just an extension of possible success you may have in any of these. If you're a big club and you fail to win any of the big prizes (league or CL), you can't really claim to have a successful season with a straight face. A good one, perhaps a decent one in terms of developing a team but ultimately success measure comes down to winning one of the two major trophies.
 
Well on the one hand they will obviously not be happy with giving away a great talent for a rather cheap fee and strengthening their biggest national rival substantially in the process (though the latter was not forseeable at that time). But on the other side they probably got Badstuber in return (unless their coach (van Gaal?!) would've played with two 20 year olds as CBs one of them probably would have been forced to leave anyway), which evens things out a lot.
 
Sarni said:
:wenger:

Are you really trying to imply that winning Supercups and such can make for a successful season?
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Scoreboard, simple as. If not that alone, quality of play, no one plays like them


Sarni said:
Last year you were trying to convince us that Barcelona had a better year than Madrid because they won 3 trophies compared to Madrid's 1.
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Again, success is ultimately judged on hardware and even objectively, the neutral would've been able to count the number of times RM were gifted points throughout the season. Knowing just a little about Spain would shed plenty of light on how upstart Catalans couldn't be allowed to continue their hegemony. Rivals were saying it all last season and it has also carried into this season. Nevermind that controversy is synonymous with Mou at every stop he's had as a manager, not a coincidence.


Sarni said:
It's nonsense, you have to look at the trophies - league and European Cup are major trophies, domestic cups (FA Cup, Copa del Rey etc.) are also important but not quite the same level, all the Supercup and particularly UEFA Supercup and domestic supercups aren't really that important (CWC is different but it's still not quite at the same level as CL or league).
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Interesting because I find it nonsense that you dismiss success that cannot be disputed, that remains in the recordbooks. Sounds like it's you who needs to come to grip with reality


Sarni said:
He said they didn't improve you straightaway, you posted a picture of Xavi with lots of trophies, I told you they had nothing to do with them and now you're trying to say you had a great season because you won Supercups.
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Nevermind that this is a Hummels thread but I started by saying that while Rosell is a cheat/snake, he never overpays for talent. The rest is one tangential deflection after another. You're welcome to continue


Sarni said:
What's with Barca's fans obssession with trophy numbers anyway?
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I'm sure there are support groups out there for this sort of envy
 
FCBarca said:
Again, success is ultimately judged on hardware and even objectively, the neutral would've been able to count the number of times RM were gifted points throughout the season. Knowing just a little about Spain would shed plenty of light on how upstart Catalans couldn't be allowed to continue their hegemony. Rivals were saying it all last season and it has also carried into this season. Nevermind that controversy is synonymous with Mou at every stop he's had as a manager, not a coincidence.
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All right, so now it's Madrid being gifted a trophy. Can't you just accept they might have been better over the course of 38 games?

Interesting because I find it nonsense that you dismiss success that cannot be disputed, that remains in the recordbooks. Sounds like it's you who needs to come to grip with reality
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So if you win La Liga this season and Atletico finish with Supercup they've already won, you will both have equally successful seasons? It's not nonsense at all to say that winning Supercups alone can't make for a successful season. We didn't try to say we had a successful season last year because we managed to win Charity Shield. City fans won't be happy with this season either even though they won Charity Shield. Real Madrid fans will be rightly pissed with this season if they don't win CL (league is already over) and look at them - they won the Supercup and will likely won Copa del Rey, shouldn't they be happy because it's two trophies and Barca will also win two at best?

It's not mere numbers. That's why teams sacrifice League Cup to pursue other trophies - not every trophy is equal. It's weird because I'm pretty sure Barcelona players were disappointed with last season having lost both major trophies yet you struggle to admit that it was a disappointing season in terms of trophy return.

I'm sure there are support groups out there for this sort of envy
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:lol:

You're very successful without the need to count Supercups to make it look better. I'm sure Chelsea and Madrid were dying of envy when they saw you lift Spanish Supercup and UEFA Supercup last season, what kind of consolation could possibly European Cup or league title offer?

You had a little slump in terms of trophies return last year, it's over now and you could well win the double this season. There's no need to come up with all the Supercups to make it sound as if you bettered a season of a team that won the league or CL. You didn't.
 
I got a photo with Rossell from the Cordoba game, from the little buffet you have over there in the VIP section. We're basically friends.
 
kouroux said:
It doesn't matter who was the president, it still was an over priced buy.Barcelona aren't immune from over paying just like any other club
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To be fair he did say that their frugal transfer policy has only been in place since Rossell became president.
 
Sarni said:
All right, so now it's Madrid being gifted a trophy. Can't you just accept they might have been better over the course of 38 games?
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Welcome to the Sarni derailment show...The evidence of those gifted points all season are out there, including the fact that in 6 meetings between the pair last season, Barcelona lost once. Perhaps it's you who can't accept who was better between the two



Sarni said:
So if you win La Liga this season and Atletico finish with Supercup they've already won, you will both have equally successful seasons? It's not nonsense at all to say that winning Supercups alone can't make for a successful season.
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Quote where I said a Supercup alone makes a successful season, in logic we refer to this as a conclusion based on a fallacy. You're attempting to deduce things I haven't claimed because you're unhappy with the opinion I maintain


Sarni said:
Real Madrid fans will be rightly pissed with this season if they don't win CL (league is already over) and look at them - they won the Supercup and will likely won Copa del Rey, shouldn't they be happy because it's two trophies and Barca will also win two at best?
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I imagine Merengue fans will be rightly pissed for a variety of reasons which date back to more than a year ago but will Mou's 3 year tenure at RM be remembered for 1 La Liga title, 1 CDR (They still have to win the Final) and a Supercup? While during that same time, Barcelona won more titles AND at least 1 CL trophy? I'd say they will be rightly pissed but this is the Barcelona era and nothing short of permanently dethroning the Catalans will make the capital faithful happy - my opinion, of course, which is what you asked


Sarni said:
It's not mere numbers. That's why teams sacrifice League Cup to pursue other trophies - not every trophy is equal. It's weird because I'm pretty sure Barcelona players were disappointed with last season having lost both major trophies yet you struggle to admit that it was a disappointing season in terms of trophy return.
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Of course there was disappointment. The difference is, they go into EVERY competition with the purpose of winning, there are no lesser cups for them as evidenced by their haul


Sarni said:
You're very successful without the need to count Supercups to make it look better.
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I'm modestly successful but that's due largely to hard work, while on the other hand I don't have anything to do with Barcelona being successful, personally, anymore than any of us do with the teams we support. When people look back on this era, they'll remember the style of play, the stars of the team and the trophies.
 
kouroux said:
It doesn't matter who was the president, it still was an over priced buy.Barcelona aren't immune from over paying just like any other club
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It does matter if my argument was based on Rosell, you're merely creating a new argument which I hadn't weighed in on
 
Sarni said:
I got a photo with Rossell from the Cordoba game, from the little buffet you have over there in the VIP section. We're basically friends.
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You should've told him what a douche he is, I'm sure he understands enough English to have understood
 
FCBarca's having a shocker, unlike him really. My Madrid supporting mate showed me some fancy tables suggesting you would have barely had a considerable lead if it weren't for bad refereeing decision this season. Which obviously is clutching at straws as you deserve the title this year and they did so last year.

Sarni is 100% right, taking that into our perspective 1 league title > Charity Shield, Carling Cup, UEFA Supercup. Winning the Supercup only means you won the UCL, which is the actual and ultimate achievement. Not one-off game where top teams tend to be not even at their best fitness-wise and sometimes rotating players because of the league.

I'd maybe understand you a little bit more, FCBarca, if you were a fan of some minor side striving for any silverware but not a supporter of the team that have won pretty much everything there was to be won in recent years.

I'd even say PL title > Carling Cup, FA Cup, Charity Shield, Supercup.

EDIT: Also the pic of Xavi with all those shiny trophies that have feck all to do with the said signings. Don't quite get it.
 
:lol: Supercups

Are Barcelona fans really this scouse about counting trophies?

Who gives a feck about shite like that?

Woooooooooooo the Charity Shield!
players-celebrate-at-ewood-.ashx
 
Sarni has completely owned FCBarca here.

Remember when we beat Pompey in the Charity Shield on penalties and no one in the team except for Tevez celebrated. It was just a case of job done.
 
FCBarca said:
Welcome to the Sarni derailment show...The evidence of those gifted points all season are out there, including the fact that in 6 meetings between the pair last season, Barcelona lost once. Perhaps it's you who can't accept who was better between the two
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So what if you only lost once? It was the most important of all these games, instead of cutting the gap down to a point you ended up 7 points behind. This season Real beat you in the league, cup and Supercup already and you only beat them in the first leg of Supercup which wasn't really important since you ended up losing the tie anyway, are they a better team than you this season?

They won the league by a fair margin and beat you fair and square in the decisive game, accept it and accept that they had a better season than you instead of doing your best to deny it. You've got your title back anyway.

Quote where I said a Supercup alone makes a successful season, in logic we refer to this as a conclusion based on a fallacy. You're attempting to deduce things I haven't claimed because you're unhappy with the opinion I maintain
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Well, you responded to that claim with an irrelevant picture of trophies they didn't win with your team, then tried to say that you had a good season because you won 4 trophies, 3 of which were basically Supercups and one was the least important of major trophies.

I imagine Merengue fans will be rightly pissed for a variety of reasons which date back to more than a year ago but will Mou's 3 year tenure at RM be remembered for 1 La Liga title, 1 CDR (They still have to win the Final) and a Supercup? While during that same time, Barcelona won more titles AND at least 1 CL trophy? I'd say they will be rightly pissed but this is the Barcelona era and nothing short of permanently dethroning the Catalans will make the capital faithful happy - my opinion, of course, which is what you asked
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But they've won the Supercup this season and beat you three times, surely they're having a much better season than you!


Of course there was disappointment. The difference is, they go into EVERY competition with the purpose of winning, there are no lesser cups for them as evidenced by their haul
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You're seriously deluded if yoy think they value Supercups as much as league or CL and don't see it as a lesser cup. They win them because they are usually better than the opposition by some margin but I don't think there's a single player at Barca who feels that winning Supercup can make up for losing the league.


I'm modestly successful but that's due largely to hard work, while on the other hand I don't have anything to do with Barcelona being successful, personally, anymore than any of us do with the teams we support. When people look back on this era, they'll remember the style of play, the stars of the team and the trophies.
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They'll remember all the league titles and two (so far) Champions League trophies, I don't think anyone will look at 2011-12 season and think 'oh God, look, they won three Supercups and beat Madrid three times'. Can you even recall who won all the Supercups in 2003 or 2005? I can't, I remember who won league, CL and UEFA Cup very well though.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Sarni has completely owned FCBarca here.

Remember when we beat Pompey in the Charity Shield on penalties and no one in the team except for Tevez celebrated. It was just a case of job done.
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That's because it's hard to value a trophy that is won over one game played in a friedly atmosphere. It might be slightly different when you play your arch-rivals but then again I didn't really care all that much when we beat City last year and I sure as hell don't think it made up for conceding the league to them. Same as I don't think City fans will try to claim their superiority over us if they finish this season with the FA Cup and Community Shield that they've already won.
 
Sarni said:
So what if you only lost once? It was the most important of all these games, instead of cutting the gap down to a point you ended up 7 points behind.
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Your question to me was to acknowledge RM were superior to Barcelona, they played 6 times last season and RM won once - in a league game, not during a cup final or semifinal of another cup competition. And yet your conclusion is that only the one win in a league match matters? Logic doesn't support that position


Sarni said:
Well, you responded to that claim with an irrelevant picture of trophies they didn't win with your team, then tried to say that you had a good season because you won 4 trophies, 3 of which were basically Supercups and one was the least important of major trophies.
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I responded to the implication that these players didn't help the club or that they weren't winning despite their addition. I say, trophy case and I maintain that whether you attach significance to the number or not


Sarni said:
But they've won the Supercup this season and beat you three times, surely they're having a much better season than you!
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Perhaps unbeknownst to you, you've successfully gone on to yet another tangent. Starting to see a pattern here.

They've so far played 4 times this season, RM have won twice and won the Supercup. One of those wins was without Tito and during a poor run of form the team and the Supercup was arguably lost on one error from Valdes - neither are compelling arguments that RM are superior, for now - nevermind the gap at the top of the League table as well.

There could conceivably still be 4 more encounters before the end of August, I'll reserve judgement to assess after the season and cups are played out. I'm not a fortune teller


Sarni said:
You're seriously deluded if yoy think they value Supercups as much as league or CL and don't see it as a lesser cup. They win them because they are usually better than the opposition by some margin but I don't think there's a single player at Barca who feels that winning Supercup can make up for losing the league.
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You're seriously refusing to accept what is a reality. Barcelona play every cup competition to win it, even if United or some Premiership clubs take the FA or Carling cups less seriously. You don't have to approve of it but it's a reality. The players say it, the coaches say it and the fans know it. Why persist in assuming you know how the club I support approaches cup competitions - that sounds more like you're deluding yourself


Sarni said:
They'll remember all the league titles and two (so far) Champions League trophies, I don't think anyone will look at 2011-12 season and think 'oh God, look, they won three Supercups and beat Madrid three times'. Can you even recall who won all the Supercups in 2003 or 2005? I can't, I remember who won league, CL and UEFA Cup very well though.
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They'll see Xavi or Messi in front of the updated photo I posted earlier along with seeing the number of trophies won. But mostly, they'll remember how special they were on the pitch. I remember what Barcelona wins because they always play with style, whether it's a Supercup, Copa Del Rey Cup, Club World Cup or Champions League Cup - that's part of the beauty of this team and there have been some intense matches during that time

I get it, you're agenda is that only what you deem worthy of success is the metric to use in assessing a team's wins. Still say it sounds like you've got trophy envy ;)
 
Suedesi said:
Other than Piqué and Dani Alves, I struggle to think of a transfer that's really improved the first team. Go on give me some names
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Yet another tangent.

When most of your talent is developed in your own cantera, you don't need to have as many transfers. This isn't the capital club that build from galacticos.

Pinto, Keita, Villa, Mascherano, Maxwell, Zlatan, Afellay, Adriano, Cesc, Alexis and Jordi Alba all have helped the 1st team at one point or another.

Then there are the cantera kids over the same period of time of Busquets, Pedro, Jeffren, Cuenca, Tello, Thiago & Bartra
 
FCBarca said:
Your question to me was to acknowledge RM were superior to Barcelona, they played 6 times last season and RM won once - in a league game, not during a cup final or semifinal of another cup competition. And yet your conclusion is that only the one win in a league match matters? Logic doesn't support that position
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As I said, you played them six times already this season. You won 3-2 in the Supercup, drew 2-2 at Camp Nou in the league, drew 1-1 ar Bernabeu in the cup and lost 2-1 at Bernabeu twice - in Supercup and league and 3-1 at Camp Nou in the cup. You're doing yourself no favour with this argument really.

I responded to the implication that these players didn't help the club or that they weren't winning despite their addition. I say, trophy case and I maintain that whether you attach significance to the number or not
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No, trophy haul doesn't support your argument at all - you won both league and CL the season before Sanchez and Fabregas signed, you won neither the season after. Three Supercups and Copa del Rey won't outweigh it at all.

Perhaps unbeknownst to you, you've successfully gone on to yet another tangent. Starting to see a pattern here.
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Like feck I did.

They've so far played 4 times this season, RM have won twice and won the Supercup. One of those wins was without Tito and during a poor run of form the team and the Supercup was arguably lost on one error from Valdes - neither are compelling arguments that RM are superior, for now - nevermind the gap at the top of the League table as well.
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At least have the decency to count games right. You've played them twice in the cup, twice in the league and twice in the Supercup. You seem to have removed Copa del Rey tie from your memory somehow, it's done - they beat you.

There could conceivably still be 4 more encounters before the end of August, I'll reserve judgement to assess after the season and cups are played out. I'm not a fortune teller
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Yeah, and if you don't draw them in CL and neither of you wins it, this season will be basically the exact reverse of the last one - Barca win the league while Madrid win Supercup and Copa del Rey after beating Barca in both. Like feck you're going to say that they had a better season then.

You're seriously refusing to accept what is a reality. Barcelona play every cup competition to win it, even if United or some Premiership clubs take the FA or Carling cups less seriously. You don't have to approve of it but it's a reality. The players say it, the coaches say it and the fans know it. Why persist in assuming you know how the club I support approaches cup competitions - that sounds more like you're deluding yourself
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This is getting ridiculous. Of course you play to win it, you don't put the same level of importance to Supercup and league or CL though. No one goes out on the pitch to deliberately lose the game FFS, obviously you will be less excited about winning a Supercup than Champions League or the title, understandably so.

They'll see Xavi or Messi in front of the updated photo I posted earlier along with seeing the number of trophies won. But mostly, they'll remember how special they were on the pitch. I remember what Barcelona wins because they always play with style, whether it's a Supercup, Copa Del Rey Cup, Club World Cup or Champions League Cup - that's part of the beauty of this team and there have been some intense matches during that time

I get it, you're agenda is that only what you deem worthy of success is the metric to use in assessing a team's wins. Still say it sounds like you've got trophy envy ;)
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Oh come on, no one is questioning that this Barca side is one of the best ever. It's a fact, no one can even argue with that.

No one is envious of Supercups and such though. No one really looks at Atletico now and say 'feck me, I'd like to be in their shoes, they won the UEFA Supercup'. 2 Champions League and 4 league titles in 5 years, now that is something.
 
And your double standards are really ridiculous. You won't admit that Madrid were better than you last season in spite of finishing ahead of you comfortably in the league because they only beat you once in 6 games, but at the same time you're happy to admit that you've had a better season this year even though you're in the EXACT same position they were in last term - comfortably ahead in the league but beaten in other competition, with 1 win in 6 games.

Surely you got to admit being wrong here?
 
Sarni said:
And your double standards are really ridiculous. You won't admit that Madrid were better than you last season in spite of finishing ahead of you comfortably in the league because they only beat you once in 6 games, but at the same time you're happy to admit that you've had a better season this year even though you're in the EXACT same position they were in last term - comfortably ahead in the league but beaten in other competition, with 1 win in 6 games.

Surely you got to admit being wrong here?
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He won't because he is blinkered to the extreme.
 
I'm so confused as to why the Hummels thread is a wall of Barcelona and cups that 'don't matter'.
 
It all started with FCBarca saying they need Hummels so they could win the Supercup next year.
 
FCBarca said:
Yeah, I think Barcelona would've jumped on Silva had Qatari money not entered into the fray. I've read the player likes the club which isn't the same as Dortmund wanting/needing to sell but still think Hummels would be hard to pry away when it's not clear if he's ideally suited to pair with Piqué anyway
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Yours or theirs?
 
Silva was heavily linked with Real Madrid and I believe he had a picture in a real madrid shirt when he was younger. Madrid didnt come through with the money City did though. Madrid also signed a bunch of other players that summer, some playing the same positions as him so possibly they chose other players over him. But he was still far more likely a Madrid player than a Barcelona one
 
Is it possible that you're confusing David Silva with Thiago Silva?
 
According to Bild, Barcelona has signed - or agreed to sign - Hummels for €35m. He certainly fits in with the current philosophy of having two centre-backs act as play makers, but his defending is inconsistent. He makes awful a lot of positional mistakes in most games he plays, and that's been happening for 2 years now. Only question that has rightfully been raised is lack of pace. Nonetheless (if true), I think he'll succeed, he has the best passing skill-set out of every centre-back in the world.
 
MoneyMay said:
According to Bild, Barcelona has signed - or agreed to sign - Hummels for €35m. He certainly fits in with the current philosophy of having two centre-backs act as play makers, but his defending is inconsistent. He makes awful a lot of positional mistakes in most games he plays, and that's been happening for 2 years now. Only question that has rightfully been raised is lack of pace. Nonetheless (if true), I think he'll succeed, he has the best passing skill-set out of every centre-back in the world.
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Two years? That would include most of the 2011/2012 season, the one, when he was overall Dortmund´s best player, because he was actually the only player who played on top level the whole season, showing very good consistency. You could count the number of glaring mistakes on one hand in over 40 games.

You wanna know, why no such questions were asked last season? Because everyone who followed his career up to this point knew what was happening: He had an off season, especially in the league meaning he performed far under his normal level. The four seasons prior to that ranged from good (2008/2009;2009/2010) to great (2010/2011) to amazing (the above mentioned one).

If he would have generally bad positioning, a player with only average speed as him would normally need to resort to a lot of (tactical) fouls to cover up the positioning, right? Problem is, that he is probably the top level CB with the least amounts of fouls, yellow and red cards. In fact, until the last league game vs. Gladbach, when he needed to try a risk tackle because his teammates screwed up, he was never sent off by the referee in his career. Hell, he did not even receive a ban because of bookings before.

Nobody can tell me, that you can become such a high rated CB (be it by fan opinion, the press or experts), if you have bad positioning and be so fair at the same time.

It would also not explain, why his performance in this season at club level was absolutely fine so far. He had one bad half vs. Frankfurt, when he was rightfully subbed off at half time, but otherwise his season is rock solid. He is even the CB with the best tackling stat of the whole league. If he would be so error prone as suggested he would not even start, because they have a class CB, the Greek International Sokratis, on the bench.

But be free to correct me on this and show me lets say five scenes of this season, when he displayed bad positioning. Should be easy, given that he played over 1000 minutes so far for Dortmund and seemingly has mistakes in most of his games.
 
I read that Bild article, seems like there are a lot of leaps in it. I don't see Rosell going in for Hummels, too similar to Piqué plus I don't see them spending €35 million on any defender atm
 
Sphaero said:
Two years? That would include most of the 2011/2012 season, the one, when he was overall Dortmund´s best player, because he was actually the only player who played on top level the whole season, showing very good consistency. You could count the number of glaring mistakes on one hand in over 40 games.

You wanna know, why no such questions were asked last season? Because everyone who followed his career up to this point knew what was happening: He had an off season, especially in the league meaning he performed far under his normal level. The four seasons prior to that ranged from good (2008/2009;2009/2010) to great (2010/2011) to amazing (the above mentioned one).

If he would have generally bad positioning, a player with only average speed as him would normally need to resort to a lot of (tactical) fouls to cover up the positioning, right? Problem is, that he is probably the top level CB with the least amounts of fouls, yellow and red cards. In fact, until the last league game vs. Gladbach, when he needed to try a risk tackle because his teammates screwed up, he was never sent off by the referee in his career. Hell, he did not even receive a ban because of bookings before.

Nobody can tell me, that you can become such a high rated CB (be it by fan opinion, the press or experts), if you have bad positioning and be so fair at the same time.

It would also not explain, why his performance in this season at club level was absolutely fine so far. He had one bad half vs. Frankfurt, when he was rightfully subbed off at half time, but otherwise his season is rock solid. He is even the CB with the best tackling stat of the whole league. If he would be so error prone as suggested he would not even start, because they have a class CB, the Greek International Sokratis, on the bench.

But be free to correct me on this and show me lets say five scenes of this season, when he displayed bad positioning. Should be easy, given that he played over 1000 minutes so far for Dortmund and seemingly has mistakes in most of his games.
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He has a tendency to go up the pitch to contribute to attacks and then saunter back, also he has those lapses in concentration. He was REALLY poor against Real last season in Dortmund. The rest of what you say I agree with. He is a great defender technically and a great passer of the ball. I think Pique needs a partner who is a bit quicker personally, Thiago Silva would have been perfect.
 
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