I was referring to Bruno in that scenario not Mount. I’ve literally said “if we want to play with 4 midfielders we are better off shunting Mount out wide instead of Bruno”
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I was referring to Bruno in that scenario not Mount. I’ve literally said “if we want to play with 4 midfielders we are better off shunting Mount out wide instead of Bruno”
I posted this after the friendly vs Real just over a week ago and mostly got criticism.
I'm not saying he won't improve necessarily, but ten Hag needs to work some of his magic on him because he looks a bit lacking in confidence and intensity. He's getting lost too often. Looks a way off improving the squad at all.
fecking hell, you're so boringSurprised you're in any other thread than the Rasmus Højlund one crying about his fee
My dear boy, I am anything but boring!
And Mount is a very questionable signing. Was clear from the off.
Questionable, maybe, but it's not unclear what he brings. What's questionable is how Ten Hag's priority from last year was Frenkie de Jong, and then decided to go for Mount this year which means he's gone in another direction than what he originally planned. I don't think we're going to control matches with Mount and Bruno other than the ability to regain possession quicker due to their pressing. I think there's going to be a fair amount of games where we're not winning the midfield battle.
Miss aside, I don’t even think he’s playing poorly or anything. But early signs (and what I was afraid of) are that a pairing of him and Bruno in front of Case is a bit too chaotic. You can feel even in these preseason games a bit of a disconnect between Case and those two, and it puts a ton of pressure on the former to be elite both on and off the ball. It’s why I thought Erik was making a mistake prioritizing a player like Mount as his main target for midfield, because you could easily see a situation later in the year where Mount is benched for Amrabat in big games to help us connect play a bit more.
Right now watching us feels a bit chaotic even when it comes off. And I’m not sure we have the solution in the squad at the moment since we don’t have a good enough inverted full back to help ease some of the build up burden off Case
Right now watching us feels a bit chaotic even when it comes off. And I’m not sure we have the solution in the squad at the moment since we don’t have a good enough inverted full back to help ease some of the build up burden off Case
Its a concern that Chelsea were happy for him to leave, that in itself should set alarm bells ringing, but for now, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.
I seem to remember you slating me all summer when I was railing against the possibility of signing him…
He's playing same role Fred was playing during that run were Eriksen was injured. What he needs to bring more is key offensive action. He's doing the defensive side very well and its not his job to drop deep and dictate play. All of City, arsenal, and the likes commit five players forward.
That role falls to the likes of Martinez and Shaw this season.
That role falls to the likes of Martinez and Shaw this season.
The lingard (when he was good) comparison is a pretty good one actually
I think ETH initially had visions of instilling a possession based system and trying to compete with that but has since decided to try and instead implement an ultra countering side to try and combat the possession heavy trend in football.
If it works, he’ll be seen as a genius who has offered a viable alternative to the boring (imo) trend of possession football, and if it fails, well, he’ll probably be on his way.
The thing is… either way, I don’t really see the need for Mount.
But hopefully ETH has a proper plan for him.
I must have watched a different game with so many people claiming we didn't control the match.
Knives out already, great bunch of fans. Give him time ffs, as if the past has not showed that time and time before. only mistake was taking no.7
Apologies I misread!
I thought he had a good match, finding his feet in the role. He scores that fluffed chance every other time, so not worried about that. I think he'll get better and better throughout the season.
He's a good player, I just think our midfield is going to get bullied with him and Bruno in it. Hopefully works out better than I expect.
Not every game will Amrabat be played in. It'll mostly be where we need more control. I'm still not convinced that we have mounts role sorted in the team.
Maybe what ETH has in mind is to play Martinez and Caisemiro in a two man pivot with full backs being wide but that's likely not going to be effective against all opposition. That's where a dlp with a good passing range will help
Today has just proven how little the average football fan actually understands the sport they supposedly love.
Yeah so happy that they were offering him new contracts till June ..
He refused to sign a contract. What else are they supposed to do other than keep him and watch him walk for a free next season when they needed to get square with FFP?
I can totally understand the reservations about this system, but I don't really understand the criticism of the player. I think we can look to the Betis game as a template for how Ten Hag wants us to play, and Fred playing high up was key to that.
The first highlight is his cross for the offside goal, he was just behind Weghorst for this cross, for Antony's goal he was the only player in the box alongside Weghorst, he was the furthest forward for Antony's chipped miss, and generally speaking he was ahead of Bruno.
Whether that's the right shape or not is debatable, but it seems clear enough that Fred was not the ideal player to occupy that role. He allowed us to suffocate the opposition when in possession and pull apart the opposition when on it, and most of that was by doing the "invisible" work that's being attributed to Mount now. When things got a bit more visible, he was liable to give away dangerous passes in dangerous areas and he was always likely to miss his shots.
The idea that he was primarily a defensive player alongside Casemiro just isn't true, he more often played in an advanced role in the second half of the season as Ten Hag started to move towards this shape. He was even praised for runs in behind by the manager, after the Barcelona game:
Ten Hag said:
And that game against Barcelona was one of the ones where we pushed Bruno out wide. It was clear in the second half of the season that we didn't want to play with two holding midfielders and Bruno in front as the #10. We wanted Casemiro to hold with two advanced midfielders. Seemingly to press the opposition better and to be more of a danger in transition. Fred did some parts of that really well and some parts really poorly. It's an unconventional role so I wouldn't hold that against Fred so much. It's the kind of role Mount has a much better skillset for.
If you think that Bruno suffered today then we must've been watching a different game. He played a lot of great passes and he always benefits from having runners around him.
Were they though? I thought he'd refused to sign a new contract and so was reluctantly put up for sale.
I predicted this earlier on in Mount's transfer thread, we are going to be playing a 3-4-3 with Licha, Casemiro, Bruno and Mount in a midfield box when on the ball. The build up issues people are demanding from Mount are going to come from Martinez/Shaw, I just think we need AWB's athleticism more than we need whatever Dalot is thought to offer in that back three because you need players with physicality to play such a demanding role if we are to contain attackers until we regain our shape.
Yeah. We gained more control in 2nd half with Bruno in more withdrawn Eriksen's role, and Mount in Bruno's position. So far this pre-seasons, it seems like Mount is not replacing Eriksen. Hmm..
I won't make any conclusive judgements on him after preseason, but what you can see is he definitely adds more than Eriksen in terms of pressing and a physical presence. Lets see how he improves his understanding with his teammates and his game on the ball, once the season is fully underway.
i’ve been willing him to fail since him and onana made a death pact to choose the wrong shirt numbers.
My thoughts as well. We lose the progression through the middle that Eriksen gives us for more mobility. However, at the moment the trade off for me is not showing, let alone for a 50 mil signing. Does also make you wonder that in the role he is playing would Amraabat have been a better buy for that role. Jury is still out.
Yes I think the perfect player for that right back role is one we don't have yet. Someone tidier than awb and more athletic than Dalot. I think there are scenarios were you can commit one more player forward and its going to be majorly the right back. I still think it's only a matter of time till ETH upgrade the options there.
As for Mount he's the guy who kick starts the press and one who would be expected to get into advance positions with his movement and get goals and assist. He has all the qualities for this role and I expect him to succeed.
I was laughed at for comparing Mount to Jessie Lingard. Now look,you see with your own eyes how he plays exactly the same way. He will work hard, press, play neat touches, but will go disappearing for large periods of the game. For 70 million that's not good enough. We paid for a luxury squad player who simply carries out a role, rather than brings out anything exceptional to the game that would help bring the team up to a higher level
Poch wanted to keep him.
Agreed, I think if Hoijlund works out then RB and RCB or a RB/RCB player like Pavard is next on line. Hell if Moyes does us a favour we could do that this summer, which will likely result in Martinez becoming our DLP permanently even if its from a libero role where alternates between CB and CM.
People are being harsh on Mount, they are expecting a Modric whereas his role is tailored from a high presser with the talent and technique to get into the box and score/create goals. This is the role Sabitzer and Fred had last term. He is not a central midfield orchestrator like Scholes. If we find Casemiro isolated in transition then it's likely that its Shaw/Martinez/Dalot/AWB who haven't supported him.
This is how ETH teams have always operated. Remember the role Daley Blind had under ETH? No reason why Shaw or Martinez can't perform such a role. Now if West Ham can get going and take Maguire and McTominay off our hands I think we will have the budget to get another RB/CB in.
Lots of posters seem to have posts prepared pregame whatever happens.
I like Mount, he's versatile and works hard. I'm not sure about ETH trying to make him into his Frenkie though. Personally I always thought he played his best football in the Bruno role, where he can also play much better out wide, and scored the most goals.
When he was good? I must have missed that.
I think they wanted him to stay but his mind was made.
Never convinced me as a midfielder. His best performances have become as part of the front 3. We’ll see him RW&LW for the most part with Amrabat in CM I feel.
They're being harsh on Mount because he's been Southgate favourite. They don't value/understand what Mounts brings tactically. Its no surprise all his managers love him. He scores/assist yet works like a water carrier. He's no Xavi but that's not his job very funny people think they understand the tactical side of the game more than ETH. Many people want a deep lying playmaker next to Case not realizing that will limit the number of players committing forward. Commiting five players forward is quite normal now going back to Conte 3-4-3 which often became a 3-2-5 with the wing backs pushing forward. Klopp 4-3-3 becomes a 2-3-5 with the full backs pushing forward. Last season pep set up with a 3-2-5 with the advanced 8s pushing forward and Stones in midfield. And we saw something similar with Martinez today moving to midfield and the 8s pushing forward.
I think they'll start to appreciate Mount when he gets a few G/A added to the pressing and link up game he brings.
The mistake many are making with regards to Mount is that they are have a vision of what they feel the CM Ten Hag wants should be and then judging Mount based on that. Truth is, Mount is a water carrier in midfield. A player who can offer physical presence, ball carrying and the occasional goal or assist. He won't be the orchestrator many think he will be (that role is being given to Martinez and Shaw) and it will take a while for his role to become fully refined to the extent that we the spectators can see exactly what he does on the pitch.
It also explains why Ten Hag wants Amrabat but not a priority. Amrabat could be the backup plan if the Mount plan proves unable to work in some matches.
It also explains why Ten Hag wants Amrabat but not a priority. Amrabat could be the backup plan if the Mount plan proves unable to work in some matches.
I agree with your comment. However, two points:
1. I don't think many people are actually criticising Mount. Vast majority question the role he's playing and his impact on the team. Maybe it's bad wording, but in the essence the concern is what he actually brings to the team.
2. Interesting thread about Fred, but he also uses to drop deep to pair with Casemiro and moved the ball horizontally. I'd argue Mount has been much closer to van de Beek than Fred actually, occupying very high positions, making channel runns but not really involved in the buildup.
On Bruno - just because he's effective in deeper areas doesn't justify moving him away from the goal. He is our second best attacking player, the whole idea of pushing him deeper makes no sense to me.
So many people here are wildly impatient, jumping to conclusions about Mount and our midfield before we've even kicked off a competitive game.
What'll likely be our starting 11 hasn't yet had a consistent run of decent minutes together during a pretty disjointed pre-season and you're already writing Mount and our midfield balance off!? Give your heads a wobble. It takes time on the training ground and on the pitch for a new midfield to settle in, learn to work together and find that balance. Seems to me that Mount is already a significant upgrade on Fred and McTominay, and for a player who is apparently admired amongst former managers for his tactical intelligence and flexibility, it seems overly pessimistic to assume Ten hag can't work with him and the others to get them playing together how he wants.
What'll likely be our starting 11 hasn't yet had a consistent run of decent minutes together during a pretty disjointed pre-season and you're already writing Mount and our midfield balance off!? Give your heads a wobble. It takes time on the training ground and on the pitch for a new midfield to settle in, learn to work together and find that balance. Seems to me that Mount is already a significant upgrade on Fred and McTominay, and for a player who is apparently admired amongst former managers for his tactical intelligence and flexibility, it seems overly pessimistic to assume Ten hag can't work with him and the others to get them playing together how he wants.
Number 2 seems deliberate at this stage. It seems ETH is not too interested in him in the build up so maybe if we're expecting lots of contributions in those phases then we are going to be disapointed.
Whether that will prove to be a working formula, we'll have to see. I was slightly dubious of it myself but he's obviously got a lot of faith that Martinez, Shaw and Casimero can handle the buildup.
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