The club via their investigation debunked that recording in their Statement
I think we’re meant to stick to performance talk on here though.
Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
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I think we’re meant to stick to performance talk on here though.
Can you guys link me to thread I should have posted in, instead of this one? Can't seem to find it. Ta.
Read the statement again. Here is the key part:
“Based on the evidence available to us, we have concluded that the material posted online did not provide a full picture and that Mason did not commit the offences in respect of which he was originally charged.”
But please, try to keep discussion on here to his performances
Cool, where's the debunking part exactly? I see a statement without any reasoning or evidence to support it.
Obviously this is just going to go in circles again but it's galling people just lap this stuff up because they want a footballer to play for their team.
A truly pathetic state of affairs.
seems to be a bit of confusion
This thread is the general crap related to his situation
his loan performance thread is actually in the performance threads forym
No, the one in the performances forum is for his on field performance
Seems pretty clear to me. They have access to more information than the public. Since when did statements have to provide reasoning and evidence, like a procedural crime drama?
Was interesting that Crafton didn't try to downplay this point during an interview in the last day or so. How you choose to receive that statement is obviously heavily influenced by where you stand but it's pretty cynical to assume that there's a big cover up with United fully involved...
Their extra info was talking to the parents.
One of you Mods has shifted posts from the Performance thread to here, which is a good idea in theory, but makes everything a bit confusing (blame Pogue!) ! Especially since not all the off topic posts have been shifted from the Performance thread
I think some kind of title change here would also be a good idea since the 2 threads have similar titles
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The club aren't in a position to debunk anything.
They have zero investigative expertise, they have zero expertise in sexual violence, they by their own admission had limited access to evidence, they weren't able to actually put forward any evidence they did have and they are the party who stood to gain most from Greenwood's return other than Greenwood himself.
Nobody has any reason to give the club the benefit of the doubt on this matter or place trust in their opinion. Especially as they have an obvious vested interest in Greenwood retaining value as an asset.
I mean absent anyone else speaking up, what would you expect the employer to do if they genuinely believe the tapes didn't tell the whole story? Just write off the 100m asset and move on to appease the masses? No business does that.
There has been very little of substance that has come out about the investigation actually being handled with any expertise.
When you hear a recording of Greenwood literally threatening to rape her then you would imagine you'd need some form of substance before just happily saying it's been debunked.
Unless you just didn't really care that is.
Yes, that's what it looks like:
United's "investigation" amounted to getting Greenwood's own version of events and his girlfriend's version via her mother. They did not have access to any actual evidence (like the full audio).
Shhh, he thinks he’s successfully masking his true feelings behind a logical facade. Don’t ruin it.
The same could be said of any and every opinion right? well no.... not really. Some are actually a bit more in the know, United being part of the select group. Won't stop random posters assuming they know more, but its probably something that they should accept though.
In fact, maybe I'm mistaken, somebody please point me to where it's stated that the investigation only involves what you say and nothing else, as I've seen it posted a few times now.... Its actually news to me as I'd have thought you'd need something pretty compelling to take the stance they have. The leakers and the media would also love to dig a bit and expose that wouldn't they? Honestly, it seems pretty baseless, but who knows? Nobody on here, clearly....
It’s really disheartening to know that there are people who genuinely believe the club came across any kind of info that exonerated Mason in any way shape or form. The club with a recent record of conducting itself perfectly across the board in relation to all on and off field matters. Do me a favour.
United have access to information that other parties don't. They also have a massive vested financial interested in Mason Greenwood that others don't.
Nobody has any reason to trust Manchester United on this issue. The fact that you also have no reason to trust any other random opinion is irrelevant. Because nobody is claiming those random opinions prove anything, whereas the poster I responded to was trying to claim the club's statement debunked the claims against Greenwood.
That's between you and the poster, but you made claims regarding United and their statement, and that's what I challenged. Crafton asked the question earlier and I'm paraphrasing "Do you think there is a football club that would have handled it differently or better?"
I know the hate or dislike of united is literally overflowing on this forum but for what it's worth, being incompetent or badly run in some areas does not make you dishonest, deceitful, evil, shady.... these are feelings and judgements that posters are projecting onto the club, and it's a shame.
Believe the club and take what they say at face value? Or believe random internet posters who have very strong, feelings? Or I could believe neither I guess but I'm not quite at the point where I'm so cynically out of love with my club that I believe they would knowingly cover this all up after just being exposed by The Athletic?
Anyway, before any potential pile on..... I've heard and seen what's out there, don't condone any of it and I'm not a DV apologist (as that seems to be the assumption when you question certain narratives).
Changed title to clarify
Exactly. Botched it. Should have had 4rd party investigate and report back on it
Even that is overstating it. They asked Greenwood for his version, and got it. They asked her mother for her/their version, didn't get it. They gave Greenwood's version to her mother, asking if she/they had anything to add, and were declined.
I'd suggest just believing your ears when hearing a recording of a man agressively threatening to rape a woman unless you are provided with anything remotely containing any substance that would explain why it was acceptable.
I didn't make any claims regarding the club or whether other clubs would have handled it better.
I just pointed out the fact that they have zero expertise in this area, the fact that they had very limited access to evidence, the fact that they were unable to produce the evidence they did have and the fact that they are not in any way shape or form a disinterested party in this matter. All of that is incontrovertible.
Which most reasonable people would conclude means they aren't in a position where there opinion on this matter needs to be trusted in the slightest.
The club (or more specifically, the handful of people with oversight on this matter) don't need to be dishonest or deceitful to have terrible opinions or judgment on the issue of sexual assault and violence, as many people and organisations do. And given they appeared to misjudge the public reaction to their plans to reinstate Greenwood, we have particular reason to question their judgment on this matter.
Following your point to it's logical conclusion:
Assume that there couldn't possibly be an explanation for why it isn't what it sounded like (in and outside of my frame of reference) even though United have categorically stated that there is? I could also do the thing and claim it's proof of repeated rape and abuse as per my suspicions, stating it as factual... and then double down when I get challenged?
Could do but there's enough posters doing that already...
I believe I'm a reasonable person, specifically because I try to avoid ill thought out conclusions, assumptions, guesses and believing that my views are infallible.... but you do.
I can categorically state that there is a giraffe walking about on the moon right now, but if I don’t show you it, how can you believe me? The hiding behind “the club did their investigation” stance is embarrassing, I’m confident I could go through every posters history and find times where they questioned the club on something, but they choose to believe them this time? The club found feck all that exonerates Greenwood from that audio, or it would have leaked by now what that evidence was.
If you were that reasonable you'd be able to respond to posts without that snide tone.
No point responding, happy to ignore you.
I have done alot of reading into the Greenwood situation and I personally think he should be given a chance to redeem himself if he's still capable as a footballer.
I'm new to the forum so haven't read the post history in this thread. Is the general opinion that most fans don't want him to be given another chance? Or is there a split?
I've spoken about this in length with my boys and I've warmed to the idea of him returning in recent weeks. I was previously very opposed to the idea but having taken in other perspectives and read some counter arguments in relation to the allegations and the truth behind them - I'm not quite so certain that he's as guilty as once portrayed.
I'm mindful of the length of this post so don't want to go into too much detail on why I've suddenly became more open to his return. I'll gladly expand on my views though if anyone is interested to hear them.
Sometimes I think with situations like this that people can be more concerned about how others view them for their opinion and this results in them going with the more politically correct view to look better on the surface. As someone with a daughter this certainly influenced my views when the story was initially leaked. And I think for me I was allowing emotions to cloud logic because I felt it reflected badly on me to be open minded on the case.
I'm new to the forum so haven't read the post history in this thread. Is the general opinion that most fans don't want him to be given another chance? Or is there a split?
I've spoken about this in length with my boys and I've warmed to the idea of him returning in recent weeks. I was previously very opposed to the idea but having taken in other perspectives and read some counter arguments in relation to the allegations and the truth behind them - I'm not quite so certain that he's as guilty as once portrayed.
I'm mindful of the length of this post so don't want to go into too much detail on why I've suddenly became more open to his return. I'll gladly expand on my views though if anyone is interested to hear them.
Sometimes I think with situations like this that people can be more concerned about how others view them for their opinion and this results in them going with the more politically correct view to look better on the surface. As someone with a daughter this certainly influenced my views when the story was initially leaked. And I think for me I was allowing emotions to cloud logic because I felt it reflected badly on me to be open minded on the case.
You could claim that or you could claim what we factually know, that he agressively threatened to rape her. That's not getting into the images.
That is enough for me unless something came out which explained why it is acceptable. Those things are limited (roleplay and maybe a couple of other things) and it would be totally shocking that neither Utd or Greenwood leaked them considering the value in it for them both.
Thinking that what we know he did is excusable based on a vague statement from Arnold where he specifically said they had to rely on 3rd party cooperation and had very limited evidence is strange. Stinks of being desperate for Greenwood to be innocent or not grasping how terrible the recording alone actually is.
Nice one - hopefully all clear now
It's not acceptable/excusable, numpties that think that are pond scum. Nevertheless, it isn't proof (for either investigation) of any of the charges. If you can't accept this then I don't know what else to say.... and let's be clear, I have no problem with people feeling a way towards Greenwood. But things aren't black and white and it's quite obvious that there's shitloads we don't know.
I keep seeing people post that if there was anything it would have been leaked.... why? The alleged victims request for anonymity (prob just wants to move) get's brought up and brushed aside often... we don't know what it could be so we don't know the reasons or potential issues... so why even state it as certainty?
If he is as bad as some of you believe, I hope that someone in that group of people can help to bring a compelling case against him so that we can move past all the feeling. With the things that we have seen and heard and some compelling testimony from... someone?
Let's see what happens eh? Personally, I hope that you are wrong though, and that United are being truthful, and that the people in question get to move on with their lives with nothing like this happening in the future.
You believe that there is no possibility of a reason (in or outside your frame of reference).
You also discount the CPS investigation.
Just to be clear, am I correct? On another note, you say I am "muddying the waters" ........ I would say the waters are already muddy, I'm just pointing it out....
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You have a terrible habbit of muddying the waters.
Mason Greenwood violently threatened to rape a woman. It's disgusting and inexcusible but there would be maybe 1 or 2 possible things that could provide context which changes that (mainly if it was consensual roleplay).
This has not even been insinuated and the investigation that you're clinging onto openly relied on 3rd party testimony, very little evidence and was overseen by a man with no experience with such matters who absolutely has a vested interest.
As such he is scum as anyone who threatens to rape someone is. If it does magically come out that it was all consensual roleplay it would change my view on that but I am working with what I know factually. Sadly this didn't go to court due to him breaching his bail conditions.
I think United (here, Arnold in consultation with Joel and Avi) are looking at this from a strictly football perspective. They wanted to bring him back but made a last minute u-turn because of the leak to Crafton and instead of having that disrupt the beginning of the season decided to loan him out with the very specific, nuanced language of "...It has therefore been mutually agreed that it would be most appropriate for him to do so away from Old Trafford, and we will now work with Mason to achieve that outcome". This was written in such a way that they could bring him back at a later date without having anyone criticize them for saying anything misleading prior to his loan departure. If the intent was to loan him with the 100% guarantee that he would never play for United again, the language would've been far more definitive so as to assuage his detractors from further disrupting the beginning of the season. This was of course before Antony and Sancho said hold my beer.
I don't have the stomach to listen to the audio myself, but was it a threat only or were there hitting/DV sounds in there as well.
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Sounds about right - one might say.
What I've heard is that Arnold (or someone representing United, rather) approached the mother and got some kind of statement from her.
Of course, that "statement" may very well have been: "We have nothing to add to what Greenwood has already said".
Which...yeah. Let's just say it should mean something to those who happily claim that Greenwood has been "cleared" by an "internal investigation"... or whatever it is they claim.
The "investigation" is bollocks to the degree you'd expect - is my personal opinion.
Nothing reasonable about being a Lingard fanboy. I'm afraid your judgement cannot be trusted much based on that.
There's /s there as well.
The only thing you're avoiding is the truth staring you in the face as well as the very telling reaction of Greenwood and his side on the ensuing 2 years of this scandal. Compare to Antony, and I can buy his innocence, unless he's some kind of a psychopath who is happy to lie Trump-style.
I have absolutely no problem with people who think that what Greenwood did was abhorrent, that he would have been found guilty, but also believe he should be given a second chance and hope things turn out good for him in the end. It’s the people that are almost acting as if there was no crime that I can’t stand.
Last part first: Of course we don't know. We can only speculate, and perhaps we shouldn't do so, but human nature is what it is.
With regard to the media, they - clearly - don't have access to anything beyond what was posted initially (the audio).
As for whether United would actually need something "pretty compelling" to take the stance they've taken, well:
(This is my take on it):
United haven't heard the full audio. They have talked to Greenwood and have gotten a reasonable (from their perspective) explanation for what was posted at the time from him. They have also tried to get a confirmation of his version from his girlfriend. She has not been willing to provide such a confirmation, but her mother has - in some shape or form - provided something of the sort on behalf of her daughter. Possibly just by stating - to United's representative - that she doesn't contradict Greenwood's explanation (for the audio that was posted).
If this is more or less accurate, it doesn't amount to anything near "compelling" in a legal sense. But it does give United what they need to release the statement we all read. They choose to believe Greenwood and his claims are backed up (after a fashion, but sufficiently so) by the "alleged victim".
United's original plan was - probably - to use this "investigation" and its "findings" to simply reinstate Greenwood as a squad member. But then...
What has made you not so certain that he's as guilty as portrayed?
Your last paragraph is a load of nonsense, it has to be said. I'm pretty sure everyone here condemning beating up and threatening to rape someone is doing it because it's a horrible thing to do, rather than to look good and feel better about themselves.
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