Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player

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I was thinking this same thing.
For someone who the majority wanted out from OT, this thread continues to grow by the day.

I think the slow mode causes this. Threads usually ebb and flow naturally and when the conversation/arguments dry up they drop off the front page and get forgotten about until something interesting happens and they get bumped. When all the conversations/arguments are happening really slooooooooowly, the thread never drops off. It’s gonna be a permanent feature, right at the top of the front page. Like a shite that won’t flush.
 
Yes. I agree with you. In fact, just reading what you have said has dawned upon me, that the whole investigation conducted by United did not realize a logical outcome. By contrast, rightly or wrongly Man City did away with Benjamin Mendy, and Mendy himself will take the club to court for loss of earnings. But their process was definite but logical. City just wanted rid of the player and just move on.

United have not really done either. They have to tried to stand by him but also United also tried to placate other stakeholders. As the Athletic said "tried to do the right thing." I think United would have been well served to conduct their investigation and conclude before May and then hold meetings with external charities such as Women's Aid and tell them within the legal boundaries, these are our genuine findings, what do you think? What advice can you give us?

That could happen in a relatively open manner. It does matter if that gets reported. It would have been a positive thing to do. We are left in a corridor of uncertainty. Who knows, the club changes hands, what happens then?

I actually think manutds investigation was tainted from the start. They have too much conflict of interest to have their findings be seen as neutral. They should have had something like 1 or 2 external firms look at all the evidence in the case and give their recommendation. They then would act based on that.

An opinion from an external third party would hold more weight than an internal investigation by manutd, no matter what the result was. It would also be easier to act upon. Furthermore, when we acted, we should have been quick and decisive...make the decision, explain the decision, be firm and stand by it.

Instead, we did the complete opposite of all that...we took forever to do this internal investigation that would never be accepted because of the bias and conflict of interest....then we tried to bring the player back in secret, with no explanations given for the evidence people saw. What happened to the tv interview ideas...etc. Even the staff inside the club just got told to begin the reintegration process without any explanation given to them. The whole thing was such a mess, they could not have handled worse.

This is like having a workmate be charged as a serial killer or something... evidence is found at his home etc...and then a few months down the road, you hear your company planning for his first day back. Its absolutely mind blowing how anyone thought this plan would work. I dont think they even bothered to run this idea by any managers in the company

The way we do things at manutd is soo bad and now we know how big a job sir alex was doing. He was the structure....not because he couldn't fit into one but because the glazers couldn't be bothered to set up a world class structure in the first place.
 
I watched the 2nd half and I think he had a good half hour on the pitch and seems to be first sub generally.

He shows signs of his directness, shooting and willing to take someone on but is clearly off the mark with fitness still and doesn't know his team mates so he won't slot in seamlessly.
Also Getafe plays really shit football for a Spanish team so it’s mostly difficult for their forwards to get the ball.
 
Gows Greenwood doing at getafe? Is he playing?
It looks like he got on the field yesterday vs Sociedad for good 20 minutes. Anyone saw how he did? From youtube I see he had at least one shot on target. :)
Saw the game for him and he was quite decent considering he is coming back after long. He is very rusty and lacks strength, but I can see his minutes increasing as the talent is still there.
 
If he ever plays for the club again it will be a dark day that shows we have no moral compass.
 
I think the slow mode causes this. Threads usually ebb and flow naturally and when the conversation/arguments dry up they drop off the front page and get forgotten about until something interesting happens and they get bumped. When all the conversations/arguments are happening really slooooooooowly, the thread never drops off. It’s gonna be a permanent feature, right at the top of the front page. Like a shite that won’t flush.

Excellent description I must say.
 
If he ever plays for the club again it will be a dark day that shows we have no moral compass.
Feck Morals, lets concentrate more on redemption, education and reintegration. Its so easy to throw people on the dirt heap these days. Whats wrong with allowing a second chance in life if people have changed or want to change?
 
I had a long discussion on this with my nieces who were visiting me recently. This whole Greenwood sage is really a reflection of the world we are living in. Believing in absolutes, black & white opinions. All without nuances.

This simplistic condemnation is a kind of 'self-defence' mechanism.

In the book, The Fiction of Evil by Professor Peter Brian Barry, he said “We tend to demonise people who we regard as morally unjust or vicious or corrupt because we really want to create distance between them and ourselves. The more we can describe them in monstrous terms . . . the more confident we can be that we’re not like that.

In a black-and-white world, we don’t just need our villains to be purely evil; we also need our heroes to be flawless too.

We need to grow up and develop some self-awareness.
Sorry, but this makes no sense in this context. No one asking him to be flawless. That's not the bar being set.

Would you be comfortable of your nieces to have a relationship with him (provided they are both appropriate ages)? I would imagine the answer would be no (maybe not, I don't know you personally), but for arguments sake if you didn't, you wouldn't need to "grow up and develop some self-awareness".
 
Feck Morals, lets concentrate more on redemption, education and reintegration. Its so easy to throw people on the dirt heap these days. Whats wrong with allowing a second chance in life if people have changed or want to change?
Agreed.

Also regarding morals we are on thin grounds generally with people or footballers for that matter. You have women flying to arab countries to get shit upon them for money and players left right and centre go and represent questionable Saudi regimes that is known to abuse women rights. So I'm also more in the giving a second chance camp.
 
I had a long discussion on this with my nieces who were visiting me recently. This whole Greenwood sage is really a reflection of the world we are living in. Believing in absolutes, black & white opinions. All without nuances.

This simplistic condemnation is a kind of 'self-defence' mechanism.

In the book, The Fiction of Evil by Professor Peter Brian Barry, he said “We tend to demonise people who we regard as morally unjust or vicious or corrupt because we really want to create distance between them and ourselves. The more we can describe them in monstrous terms . . . the more confident we can be that we’re not like that.

In a black-and-white world, we don’t just need our villains to be purely evil; we also need our heroes to be flawless too.

We need to grow up and develop some self-awareness.

Superb post and spot on.
 
Sorry, but this makes no sense in this context. No one asking him to be flawless. That's not the bar being set.

Would you be comfortable of your nieces to have a relationship with him (provided they are both appropriate ages)? I would imagine the answer would be no (maybe not, I don't know you personally), but for arguments sake if you didn't, you wouldn't need to "grow up and develop some self-awareness".

maybe the quote doesn’t fit the Greenwood scenario perfectly, but it’s still a very apt reflection on our society.

As for Greenwood, we all heard the tape and saw the images and I think we all expected him to go to prison or at the very least be convicted. However, he hasn’t been convicted of any crime. Maybe that’s a flaw in our justice system, but if we can’t rely on the justice system then what are we supposed to do?

Is it right that we as fans and the club as an employer have to make a decision that the courts aren’t prepared to?

Is the young woman involved the only one allowed to move on with her life because the case will never see trial?
 
Feck Morals, lets concentrate more on redemption, education and reintegration. Its so easy to throw people on the dirt heap these days. Whats wrong with allowing a second chance in life if people have changed or want to change?

Has he asked the fans for a second chance? It looks to me he hasn't even acknowledged he was in the wrong? But who cares as long as he's good at football right?
 
maybe the quote doesn’t fit the Greenwood scenario perfectly, but it’s still a very apt reflection on our society.

As for Greenwood, we all heard the tape and saw the images and I think we all expected him to go to prison or at the very least be convicted. However, he hasn’t been convicted of any crime. Maybe that’s a flaw in our justice system, but if we can’t rely on the justice system then what are we supposed to do?

Is it right that we as fans and the club as an employer have to make a decision that the courts aren’t prepared to?

Is the young woman involved the only one allowed to move on with her life because the case will never see trial?

Look at the evidence and make a decision, like everyone does every single day.

Rio Ferdinand might understandably be a bit unhappy with John Terry, because he racially abused his brother, even though Terry was found not guilty. Suarez wasn't even charged, yet many people believe Evra. Most non-City fans think they're dodgy, even though no crimes have been proven in a court of law. We just had a World Cup in Qatar, and it's widely accepted that this happened because of bribery and corruption. That's illegal!

An extremely iconic piece of United history is the Cantona kung fu kick. That was a crime. He wasn't charged, but technically he could have been. He is therefore treated as innocent by the state, yet no one doubts that he did it. We saw it, it's on video! We don't need to rely on the justice system, because we have eyes.
 
maybe the quote doesn’t fit the Greenwood scenario perfectly, but it’s still a very apt reflection on our society.

As for Greenwood, we all heard the tape and saw the images and I think we all expected him to go to prison or at the very least be convicted. However, he hasn’t been convicted of any crime. Maybe that’s a flaw in our justice system, but if we can’t rely on the justice system then what are we supposed to do?

Is it right that we as fans and the club as an employer have to make a decision that the courts aren’t prepared to?

Is the young woman involved the only one allowed to move on with her life because the case will never see trial?
The justice system isn't infallible so I'm not sure why it tracks that you're not allowed an opinion, because it didn't go to trial.

Everyone is entitled to make their own opinion on it, but they have to truthfully answer the question I posed with would they be comfortable with someone like a daughter being in a relationship with him now - with all the information available to you now. If the answer is yes, then fair enough. As someone who's about to have a daughter, it's a hard no for me, purely for the possibility he could be a risk.
 
Has he asked the fans for a second chance? It looks to me he hasn't even acknowledged he was in the wrong? But who cares as long as he's good at football right?
Bingo. He's not in prison and people are insistent that his partner is totally happy, so there's the "redemption" if people would like to believe that. No return to United really required.
 
If in the right system, he will be a transformational, world class player imo.

This level of world class finishing doesn't happen often, particularly among teenagers capable of doing it effortlessly on one of the biggest club stages in world football.

That’s brutal to watch what could have been, I like the intelligence he shows to not just whack it in the distant corner all the time.

Completely takes the keeper out by shooting near post
 
Look at the evidence and make a decision, like everyone does every single day.

Rio Ferdinand might understandably be a bit unhappy with John Terry, because he racially abused his brother, even though Terry was found not guilty. Suarez wasn't even charged, yet many people believe Evra. Most non-City fans think they're dodgy, even though no crimes have been proven in a court of law. We just had a World Cup in Qatar, and it's widely accepted that this happened because of bribery and corruption. That's illegal!

An extremely iconic piece of United history is the Cantona kung fu kick. That was a crime. He wasn't charged, but technically he could have been. He is therefore treated as innocent by the state, yet no one doubts that he did it. We saw it, it's on video! We don't need to rely on the justice system, because we have eyes.
I agree with your general points, but Cantona was charged with assault, pleaded guilty, and was sentenced to 120 hours of community service, as well as getting a lengthy ban from football.
 
I agree with your general points, but Cantona was charged with assault, pleaded guilty, and was sentenced to 120 hours of community service, as well as getting a lengthy ban from football.

You're right, thanks, I completely misremembered that.
 
Obviously not if they're convicted.

Regarding Greenwood: I think he's probably guilty based on the audio and images. However, we don't actually know this.

I have had jury duty before. I can't go into detail about the case for legal reasons but all I can say is that things are not necessarily what they seem from the outside.

We have a legal system for a reason. Otherwise witches would still be burnt at the stake.
I understand your point, of course, but the facts of this case are clear, uncontested and without apparent mitigation. To have MG back would be to actively look the other way, which I think many would find uncomfortable. My sister had the crap kicked out of her by her intimate partner. Like most abusers, he terrified her out of providing evidence for the case and the cops dropped it - a bit like this case. Speaking personally, the idea of playing football with someone like that would not be appealing to me at all. The idea that he’s walking around a free man, most likely doing it to other women, is infuriating.

Also, given we have a women’s team, perhaps we should be sending a message that we don’t hire people who abuse women.
So while I agree he would improve the team, I think there is a standard of basic behaviour that everyone needs to meet. Beating up and threatening women would fail to meet that standard, for me, even if the victim were subsequently dissuaded from testifying, as is the case here. Such a shame. He’s a fabulous player.
 
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If he ever plays for the club again it will be a dark day that shows we have no moral compass.

his victim has forgiven him and chosed to move forward with him and their child.

Look at the evidence and make a decision, like everyone does every single day.

Rio Ferdinand might understandably be a bit unhappy with John Terry, because he racially abused his brother, even though Terry was found not guilty. Suarez wasn't even charged, yet many people believe Evra. Most non-City fans think they're dodgy, even though no crimes have been proven in a court of law. We just had a World Cup in Qatar, and it's widely accepted that this happened because of bribery and corruption. That's illegal!

An extremely iconic piece of United history is the Cantona kung fu kick. That was a crime. He wasn't charged, but technically he could have been. He is therefore treated as innocent by the state, yet no one doubts that he did it. We saw it, it's on video! We don't need to rely on the justice system, because we have eyes.

Err yes he did. The FA set up an independent panel to investigate and they found Suarez guilty of using racist remark toward Evra thats why he got banned (based on the independent panel recommendantion), even Liverpool have finally admitted their fooly that they sent Evra formal apology few years ago.
 
his victim has forgiven him and chosed to move forward with him and their child.



Err yes he did. The FA set up an independent panel to investigate and they found Suarez guilty of using racist remark toward Evra thats why he got banned (based on the independent panel recommendantion), even Liverpool have finally admitted their fooly that they sent Evra formal apology few years ago.

He was cleared and found innocent in a court of law. Evra Suarez never went to court. The entire point of the post is to highlight the fallibility of stating that because a court didn’t find someone guilty, it means everyone has to treat them as innocent.
 
No, it says absolutely nothing to that. No matter how many times and how many posters repeat it. Honestly, it's come to the point where this can only be wumming, wilful ignorance or DV apologism.

For me it means he apologized, she accepted his apology, and that he has treated her well since all the problems started. She could have left him, gotten a lot of money from him to not testify, and moved on. If that had happened, I would have a different view. I've said this before, most young adults deserve a second chance after really poor behavior and mistakes.
 
So we're just going to assume that's the case here with zero evidence?

Again the point is pretty clear. People keep repeating that her forgiving him means he should be absolved, but that’s not how the world works, on two counts.

The first (which has been posted again and again in this thread yet it’s often ignored) is that partners who suffer domestic violence often return to their abuser, so it’s a lot more complicated than stating “everything’s rosy with them now because she’s with him”

The second is if I stabbed someone, and they forgave me, it doesn’t mean that everyone else has to act as if the act never happened.
 
You know that usually the victims get physically and mentaly manipulated and controlled right?
How do you know this is the case with her now, are you her counselor or something? For all we know she just might not want to see the father of her baby go to prison. If the victim is willing to give him second chance, why shouldnt we? we are nobody to their relationship anyway.

He was cleared and found innocent in a court of law. Evra Suarez never went to court. The entire point of the post is to highlight the fallibility of stating that because a court didn’t find someone guilty, it means everyone has to treat them as innocent.

who is "he" that youre talking about? Greenwood case has never gone to court. Also Evra - Suarez was football related accident, the court had nothing to do with it, otherwise we might be seeing tackle being trialed as a form of battery next.
 
Has he asked the fans for a second chance? It looks to me he hasn't even acknowledged he was in the wrong? But who cares as long as he's good at football right?

He's publicly stated he wants a fresh start and to resume his career.

He's not been found guilty of anything at all legally.

The victim has forgiven him, the victims family have forgiven him.

If it was a footballing decision he'd be playing for us, not loaned out to a poor Spanish team
 
Err yes he did. The FA set up an independent panel to investigate and they found Suarez guilty of using racist remark toward Evra thats why he got banned (based on the independent panel recommendantion), even Liverpool have finally admitted their fooly that they sent Evra formal apology few years ago.

That's not a court lof law, and if we want to draw parallells to the legal system it's closer to a civil case than a criminal one. Apologies are completely irrelevant, as long as you've not been found guilty you are presumed innocent by the state no matter what you admit to.

If we solely go by the justice system, then we cannot say that Suarez racially abused Evra.
 
How do you know this is the case with her now, are you her counselor or something? For all we know she just might not want to see the father of her baby go to prison. If the victim is willing to give him second chance, why shouldnt we? we are nobody to their relationship anyway.



who is "he" that youre talking about? Greenwood case has never gone to court. Also Evra - Suarez was football related accident, the court had nothing to do with it, otherwise we might be seeing tackle being trialed as a form of battery next.

John Terry. And no, racially abusing someone is a court matter, Evra could have gone to the legs authorities. Which again leads credence to NotThatSoph’s argument.

Your tackle point is asinine, Duncan Ferguson went to jail because he headbutted a player on the pitch. Just because it happened during a football game doesn’t mean the courts can’t do anything
 
Very true.

It's also much easier to distance yourselves when you don't know the person, or know the nuance. Yet we all have friends and family members who have done bad things yet we forgive and/or forget, because we empathise with the complex mix of circumstances that led to them doing those things.

It gets more difficult the worse the action, and the more distant the connection. In my job, one of the patients I have worked with the past few years is a convicted killer. Yet knowing his history and the circumstances, I know that he is isn't an evil person. He's a damaged individual who was in a near impossible situation, sought help but didn't receive any, and ended up making a decision that has cost him his freedom for decades, first prison, then forensic wards, and now he's still in the psychiatric system despite his criminal sentence expiring. He's genuinely one of the kindest patients I have worked with. I can't explain the circumstances for obvious reasons because they're fairly unique to his case, but what's sad is that some people are so black and white in their thinking they won't stop to consider what possible circumstances I'm alluding to because X simply = Y. On the flip side, there's a few staff, and plenty of "regular" citizens, who have respectable jobs and public image, and yet when you get to know them it's obvious they are narcissistic, manipulative and abusive and cause pain and turmoil wherever they go. I'd trust the convicted killer I work with, with my life, I wouldn't trust some of the staff with my car keys.
No, you cut them from your life.
 
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I had a long discussion on this with my nieces who were visiting me recently. This whole Greenwood sage is really a reflection of the world we are living in. Believing in absolutes, black & white opinions. All without nuances.

This simplistic condemnation is a kind of 'self-defence' mechanism.

In the book, The Fiction of Evil by Professor Peter Brian Barry, he said “We tend to demonise people who we regard as morally unjust or vicious or corrupt because we really want to create distance between them and ourselves. The more we can describe them in monstrous terms . . . the more confident we can be that we’re not like that.

In a black-and-white world, we don’t just need our villains to be purely evil; we also need our heroes to be flawless too.

We need to grow up and develop some self-awareness.
This is excellent.
 
Again the point is pretty clear. People keep repeating that her forgiving him means he should be absolved, but that’s not how the world works, on two counts.

The first (which has been posted again and again in this thread yet it’s often ignored) is that partners who suffer domestic violence often return to their abuser, so it’s a lot more complicated than stating “everything’s rosy with them now because she’s with him”

The second is if I stabbed someone, and they forgave me, it doesn’t mean that everyone else has to act as if the act never happened.
Which scenario do you think works out best for her? 1. Greenwood is sold to a foreign club, she has to move away from her family and friends whilst forever feeling the wrath and being gaslighted by the online vermin or 2. Greenwood plays for utd again, she can start to live in peace putting the situation behind her with hope Greenwood has matured into a better person and raise a family, with the freedom to contact the police and report him if it ever comes close to happening again?


I saw this yesterday and it infuriated me, if he leaves then she will be gaslighted forever by horrible cnuts. The best thing we can do is support her choices rather than see it as her being manipulated, so she can start to live a normal life without the prospect of being heavily targeted online.
 
How did he play yesterday?

He came on in the 68th minute after his side went down 4-2. Was involved in their goal to make it 4-3, made a promising run down the right wing, and got a curling shot off near FT, which the oppo keeper mishandled but managed to cover up. Based on his two appearances so far, he's probably ready for a bigger role beyond the usual 60th minute sub appearance.
 
John Terry. And no, racially abusing someone is a court matter, Evra could have gone to the legs authorities. Which again leads credence to NotThatSoph’s argument.

Your tackle point is asinine, Duncan Ferguson went to jail because he headbutted a player on the pitch. Just because it happened during a football game doesn’t mean the courts can’t do anything

yeah because headbutting player is part of the game, eh? good thing Evra didnt push to the court considering how useless the british court was when they tried John Terry.
 
Which scenario do you think works out best for her? 1. Greenwood is sold to a foreign club, she has to move away from her family and friends whilst forever feeling the wrath and being gaslighted by the online vermin or 2. Greenwood plays for utd again, she can start to live in peace putting the situation behind her with hope Greenwood has matured into a better person and raise a family, with the freedom to contact the police and report him if it ever comes close to happening again?


I saw this yesterday and it infuriated me, if he leaves then she will be gaslighted forever by horrible cnuts. The best thing we can do is support her choices rather than see it as her being manipulated, so she can live a normal life without the prospect of being heavily targeted online.

fOcKGQm.png

I don’t care if he does or doesn’t play for your club again. What I do care about is people making arguments that both perpetuates a culture that leads to abusers being emboldened. There’s a long history of abusers with talent having rabid support, especially online. Which that picture you posted is a prime example of
 
Which scenario do you think works out best for her? 1. Greenwood is sold to a foreign club, she has to move away from her family and friends whilst forever feeling the wrath and being gaslighted by the online vermin or 2. Greenwood plays for utd again, she can start to live in peace putting the situation behind her with hope Greenwood has matured into a better person and raise a family, with the freedom to contact the police and report him if it ever comes close to happening again?


I saw this yesterday and it infuriated me, if he leaves then she will be gaslighted forever by horrible cnuts. The best thing we can do is support her choices rather than see it as her being manipulated, so she can live a normal life without the prospect of being heavily targeted online.
Can you take down the image that identifies her, please?
 
yeah because headbutting player is part of the game, eh? good thing Evra didnt push to the court considering how useless the british court was when they tried John Terry.

and racially abusing a player is?! What even is your point there?
 
For me it means he apologized, she accepted his apology, and that he has treated her well since all the problems started.
This is impossible to know, and a dangerous conclusion to draw, given the alarming rate of domestic violence recidivism and reoccurrence.

And that is after accounting for the fact that many abusers who successfully stop abusing go through a lengthy process of therapy and acceptance of responsibility/accountability for their actions, the latter of which seems lacking in what we know about this situation, unfortunately.
 
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