Martial | Di Marzio thinks he will stay

People talking about swap deals like Dybala and Dembélé are deluding themselves.

Martial wants out, they don’t. Juve and Barca are more well placed to compete at this moment than us, what incentive if at all do they have to benefit us by giving a great player of theirs in return?

It’ll be straight cash in the region of £50-60m due to his contract situation and we better hope we spend that money wisely and win something big in the near future.

Griezmann has a release clause of £100m :angel:

Martial will get us a good penny if he leaves, he is a talented young player and those are a premium in this market. We also have a 1 year extension option so he is basically on a 2 year contract.

Ousmane Dembele wanted out of Dortmund and had 4 years left on his contract. He went for £120m. I think that Martial can get £70-80m based on that.
 
Not because they were proven players. You are just confirming my point, SAF adapted his approach to the players' personalities Scholes and Fletcher weren't players that would respond well to a hairdryer, so they never got one. SAF knew his players and knew how he needed to talk to them, what would make them tick and what wouldn't.

That’s fair tbh. I guess that’s true
 
He should be loaned. The club have to protect their long term interests and I'll hedge it on Martial outlasting Mourinho.

Not a bad idea either, but he needs to extend for that to be relevant. Else he'll just leave for less later on.
 
We’ll regret selling him and all those backing Mourinho will look pretty silly in a few years. Martial has not been good enough that’s clear, he needs to work harder but it’s obvious that he is struggling with the motivation because the manager just doesn’t really have faith in him, he never has and it’s always been apparent despite starting a lot of games.

Why will anyone look silly? No one is denying his potential. If he doesn't have the balls to stay around here and fight for it, and a lot points to that, then that's on him.

Annoyingly, we're never gonna hear the end of it, whatever happens. If he stays and is shit - 'Jose ruined him'. If he stays and he's good - 'managed to overcome the evil Jose and we told you so', even though everyone knows about the potential. If he leaves and is shit - 'Jose ruined him'. If he leaves and is good - 'managed to escape and we told you so'.
 
There are multiple incidents in his book and said by someone else. Notably where they drew the palace game where cantona had kungfu kicked the fan and Fergie came in the dressing room and blasted everyone except cantona. Even pallister said Eric rarely got the brunt. As did Giggs



Lukaku has already scored 100 PL goals not playing for a top club till this season and is only older than Kane fowler rooney shearer and Owen in terms of youngest to reach the milestone. While he isn’t the best he is certainly a proven goalscorer. Proven implies scoring a lot of goals for the teams they played. In the PL he is definitely a proven scorer
The example you gave shows he favoured cantona, yes, but didn't marginalise the young players. In fact apart from cantona everyone got the same treatment.

Also you suggest Lukaku is a good pl striker but "not the best." i agree - but that doesn't mean he's proven at the elite level.
 
We have to activate the additional year and send him out on loan to a top-ish club where he will be guaranteed to start. I don't think Mourinho will stay after the next season. The next manager can take a decision on Martial, we should not sell talented players on the basis that the current manager has no idea how to use the said player.
 
The example you gave shows he favoured cantona, yes, but didn't marginalise the young players. In fact apart from cantona everyone got the same treatment.

Also you suggest Lukaku is a good pl striker but "not the best." i agree - but that doesn't mean he's proven at the elite level.

Never said proven at the elite level. Just said proven players. Lukaku has proven he can be banked to score about 20 or thereabouts in the PL

He hasn’t marginalised anyone either. Martial started the next few games in the PL including vs spurs and Chelsea
 
If you are a proven player, you get more slack. Ferguson famously used to give slack to Eric cantona but used to thrash the likes of Giggs sharpe and Beckham for small mistakes that they do.
.

Ferguson man management skills was brilliant. He knew same approach with everyone wouldn't work and that's how it should be. Coach should know that.

Rooney:
"His man-management without a doubt [was his biggest strength]," Rooney added. "As a manager he was the best. He knew how to speak to players, how to get a reaction.
So many times at half-time I had played well and others in the dressing room hadn't but he'd come for me. He knew there'd be a shouting match but it'd get a reaction from me.
"If he did it to another player - for example Nani - he knew he'd lose the player but he just knew the right thing to do. He'd tell me to stop dribbling, aiming it at Nani!
"He's the only manager that could leave someone out and make them feel good about it. He was incredible. He knew how to get a reaction."

Bruce on how Cantona was treated:
In another story, Bruce recalled a particular civic reception at Manchester Town Hall, which was attended by all of the players dressed in the official club suit; all except for Eric Cantona. He turned up wearing flip-flops, ripped jeans, and a long, multi-coloured coat. Ferguson always ruled with an iron fist when it came to the behaviour and appearance of his players and on that particular night, the team believed that Cantona should be heavily fined and it fell down to Bruce to inform him of their opinion:

So I sidled over. “Boss, the lads aren’t happy with Eric’s appearance”. Fergie’s on the red wine. He puts down his glass, looks over at Eric. “Tell them from me, Steve,” he says, “that if they can play like him next year, they can all come as fecking Joseph”.

Know your players and how to treat them to get best out of them.
 
Remember when he started out as a number 9 and had a good first season, then he got shifted to the left. Changed his shirt number then shifted to the right. I would want to leave if I was him too.

Why play for an ultra defensive manager when you don’t have too.
 
Griezmann has a release clause of £100m :angel:

Martial will get us a good penny if he leaves, he is a talented young player and those are a premium in this market. We also have a 1 year extension option so he is basically on a 2 year contract.

Ousmane Dembele wanted out of Dortmund and had 4 years left on his contract. He went for £120m. I think that Martial can get £70-80m based on that.
Dembele came off a great season for Dortmund with 4 years left on his contract and even then pulled the no show at training to get away, Barca also had to pay more given the ludicrous sum they received from the Neymar sale, as evidenced by the Coutinho's transfer later on.

Martial doesn't feature in the manager plan, will come off a season in which he finished on the bench and not make the French WC squad, has 2 years left on his contract. We'd do well to recoup the money we've paid for him (around 60m Euro) because let's be honest here, Mourinho won't be making a big fuss about keeping him and the club has very little leverage. It'll be De Gea 2015 all over again, dragging all summer only to accept a piss poor offer (Navas+ 15m) before being saved by Madrid's incompetence, except this time there wont be a fax machine involved.

Morata went to Chelsea for 60m after playing an important part in Madrid's double. I don't expect Martial to fetch more.
 
If he doesn't have the balls to stay around here and fight for it, and a lot points to that, then that's on him.

Tell me, if you are suffocating at your workplace, feeling underappreciated, not getting on well with management, and the prospect of things getting better isn't exactly on the horizon, are you going to stick it out or jump ship when an offer with similar renumeration from an equal/better company come in?

People forget this is just a job for them. Their dream is to play football and make it at one of the great clubs, It doesn't have to be Man Utd, which Martial had no affiliation to prior to joining. Why is he being labelled a coward for doing essentially what any rational person would in their professional career? It's childish and pathetic.
 
Tell me, if you are suffocating at your workplace, feeling underappreciated, not getting on well with management, and the prospect of things getting better isn't exactly on the horizon, are you going to stick it out or jump ship when an offer with similar renumeration from an equal/better company come in?

People forget this is just a job for them. Their dream is to play football and make it at one of the great clubs, It doesn't have to be Man Utd, which Martial had no affiliation to prior to joining. Why is he being labelled a coward for doing essentially what any rational person would in their professional career? It's childish and pathetic.

This isn't just a normal job though is it?

If I was at an incredible company, getting paid £65k a week even though I'm barely out of uni, with the best resources to improve and 75 thousand people looking through the window willing me to do well and cheering me when I do, I'd probably fight for that promotion, yeah, even though that 60 year old bloke came in and got the big project I was working on that I wasn't ready for anyway, and some other high flyer came in before that and demanded they have my cupboard in the lunch room, and those feckers gave it to him.
 
Dembele came off a great season for Dortmund with 4 years left on his contract and even then pulled the no show at training to get away, Barca also had to pay more given the ludicrous sum they received from the Neymar sale, as evidenced by the Coutinho's transfer later on.

Martial doesn't feature in the manager plan, will come off a season in which he finished on the bench and not make the French WC squad, has 2 years left on his contract. We'd do well to recoup the money we've paid for him (around 60m Euro) because let's be honest here, Mourinho won't be making a big fuss about keeping him and the club has very little leverage. It'll be De Gea 2015 all over again, dragging all summer only to accept a piss poor offer (Navas+ 15m) before being saved by Madrid's incompetence, except this time there wont be a fax machine involved.

Morata went to Chelsea for 60m after playing an important part in Madrid's double. I don't expect Martial to fetch more.

- No show at training should reduce Dembele's price

- PSG paid through the roof for Neymar and Mbappe, despite not selling a player for a massive fee. That's how the transfer market is now, player prices have gone up 20%+

- Martial does feature in the manager's plan, but Martial wants more involvement

- Your assertion that we'll do well to get £50m for Martial is frankly ludicrous, players like John Stones went for £50m, Drinkwater for £35m, etc.
 
Dont know if I'd be against it or not. Left side is cluttered for us.

As much as I’d like Martial to stay he’s not exactly been brilliant. I thought a young Nani looked a better player. I’d swap him for Bale at this stage just because our needs are greater elsewhere. Think if Bale produces anywhere near the level of the last time he played in England premiership, we would have the best player in the premiership (in one of our weakest positions Rw). Where as I’m struggling to see which one of Martial or Rashford is better on the left.
 
This isn't just a normal job though is it? Stupid comparison.

If I was at an incredible company, getting paid £65k a week, with the best resources to improve and 75 thousand people looking through the window willing me to do well and cheering me when I do, I'd probably fight for that promotion, yeah.
g
There's nothing stupid about it, you are just refusing to see the obvious because you are biased. You'd be leaving the 65k a week in front of 75 thousand people to 65k a week and 90 thousand people at another incredible company with just as rich history. As for best resources? Doubtful. You don't get on with management in the first place.

Start thinking rationally instead of throwing childish insults. Players are human and they have the same personal motivations, emotions and failings just as we are. Was Pogba a coward for not sticking it out with Fergie and moved to Italy?
 
We have to activate the additional year and send him out on loan to a top-ish club where he will be guaranteed to start. I don't think Mourinho will stay after the next season. The next manager can take a decision on Martial, we should not sell talented players on the basis that the current manager has no idea how to use the said player.

I'm not a Martial fan, but I do agree with this.
If Jose does leave in a year, then Martial will still be available to the next manager.
I think this would be a win-win situation.
 
- No show at training should reduce Dembele's price.

It showed how valued he was by his club that even at the incredible offer he'd have to burn all bridges in order to move. The same I doubt will apply to Martial.

- PSG paid through the roof for Neymar and Mbappe, despite not selling a player for a massive fee. That's how the transfer market is now, player prices have gone up 20%+

Neymar had a release clause which was the only way to prize him from Barca, and Mbappe was the hottest commodity on a market already inflated from that transfer. As I said, look to the same window and Morata went for 60m, Lacazette for 50m. They would be more the ballpark given Martial's situation with the club.

- Martial does feature in the manager's plan, but Martial wants more involvement

He is as of the moment third choice for the left wing spot behind Sanchez and Rashford. That's a poor position to be in in a plan.

- Your assertion that we'll do well to get £50m for Martial is frankly ludicrous, players like John Stones went for £50m, Drinkwater for £35m, etc.

To English clubs. We sell very poorly out of EPL and the contract situation doesn't favour us to play hardball. I of course hope he'd stay but I don't expect us to squeeze more than 50-60m for him out of the buyer, be it Bayern, Juve, Barca should we sell him. Time will tell.
 
Martial is wanted by Bayern, Juventus and who knows who else. Why would he accept to go out on loan?

He wouldn't be stepping down by leaving United. Equally big clubs willing to offer him as much or more money will be fighting for him.

It is very simple: either United wants to make him a centerpiece of their team going forward, or he has other options which at the very least are no worse than his current situation at United
 
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McTominay has played well when given the chance. No teenager in England could step in and play CM against Liverpool and end up on the winning side. It’s not like Jose is saying he is the next Carrick every week. He is part of the squad.

He's played well on occasion but that doesn't change the fact that he's a limited player. The idea that only he could have played well and won against Liverpool is laughable as well.

Fellaini isn’t going to be starting every week either. He will have been a squad player.

A lot of people who work in football highly rate Rashford. It’s just you who has decided to throw him in there.

It's evident that Mourinho rates Fellaini highly and wants him to be an important player here, which he should never be. He should have been moved on a long time ago.

As for Rashford, we'll never agree on him. You think he's the future, I think he's limited and overhyped. We'll never convince each other otherwise.
 
It's like that stat of the Lukaku/Martial link-up producing a record amount of goals for us, more than any other partnership in Utd's PL era was it?

Why aren't they BOTH starting most games??
 
I'm not a Martial fan, but I do agree with this.
If Jose does leave in a year, then Martial will still be available to the next manager.
I think this would be a win-win situation.
Yes it is a win-win scenario. But all this is hypothetical, the loan club has to be a top-ish club and they should play him all matches like Batshuayi does at Dortmund. But I don't think MOurinho would be willing to loan him, coz if Martial tears it up at a new club as a loan player, he'd look silly.
 
As @Dante rightly pointed out, the Chelsea side Mourinho built (that we toppled in Moscow) was a team that could manage itself. There was a grit, a personality throughout the team that meant they were capable of winning anything. It takes an incredible manager to assemble something like that, those qualities certainly weren't there when he arrived, but they survived him.

I don't actually believe Mourinho thinks Martial is the problem, I think he knows the problem is the balance of the team, the "only 11 players" issue Mourinho talks about. Martial's been an unfortunate victim of failings elsewhere. I'm not saying Martial couldn't do more, or that it's been entirely outside his ability to influence, but I don't think he's the problem, and I don't think Mourinho is a poor manager so I'm sure he sees the all positive things Martial contributes. The issue isn't necessarily what Mourinho expects from individual positions, it's what he feels he needs (first, before what he wants) from his team, and if the fullbacks are lacking, then he needs wingers or midfielders who cover those discrepancies.

Sidenote: You don't turn down the chance to swap Sanchez for Mkhitaryan. Sanchez is a quality player with a similar mentality to those in that great Chelsea team. Let's not have this discussion that Mourinho signed Sanchez to take Martial's place in the team, because that wouldn't have been the motivating factor. Much as I liked him, Mkhitaryan had lost it mentally, his form was atrocious, and even though Mourinho had persevered with him, he didn't seem to be able to generate either the moments of magic, or the intensity to contribute in other ways. He seemed to have lost all belief. It was a good move, any of us would have made it.​

If we are able to sort out our defence and midfield, I believe we will see Martial starting more, and contributing more. He's not a winger, and he's not a striker, he's somewhere in between. That's why he looked so good in a 343, he had a wingback and a center forward, and he could play between the lines.

We need center backs who can be trusted to be left with a striker, midfielders who will track runners on the break, and fullbacks who are decent defenders whilst being effective on the overlap.

If we could get a really good left back this summer, and a leader at center back... we'd have a different team, and all of a sudden, the strain on our other resources won't be such an issue.

Very balanced post there mate. Agree with you and wish more people could see the bigger picture, rather than looking shove the blame around.
 
Multiple reliable reporters have now said he wants out/is unhappy. It's not a rumor anymore. He's gone IMO. Sucks.
 
We have. Under one manager. A manager who put the team before individuals, who sold Stam, Beckham, RvN because they had lost the team ethic, players who were in their prime and went on to be successful elsewhere but were deemed surplus to Utd. Yet I don't remember fans wanting him sacked for letting them go. It is bizarre that fans see letting Martial go as a sin, yet we've let much more successfull stars go in the past, and moved on and kept winning.

The manager that you speak of had already proven himself by then. Took a sleeping giant and made them Champions over and over again.

Jose has done nothing to merit that as of now. We are 2nd, but a mile away from the first place. We lost to Sevilla at home in the most pathetic way possible. All he has done is achieve the bare minimum.

I was a firm supporter of Jose when he arrived, but things have not gone as well as I expected. A team which has Pogba, Lukaku, Sanchez, Mata, Martial and Rashford struggles to put together any attack. We always seem to depend on individual moments to score, rather than being well coached.

On the other side, our bitter rivals have gone to the CL semis, scoring record amount of goals, with a midfield that would most likely not even make it into our squad. So on one side, a sqaud is overachieving and on the other, it is vastly underachieving.
 
It’s going to be another Mourinho transfer mistake to add to the list. Sanchez was Mourinhos biggest mistake in my opinion.
 
From his perspective, I think a move to Bayern would be the most sensible one.
 
You're comparing apples with oranges pal. All of the players you mentioned were in their late 20s, and Fergie thought they had passed their peak.

Past their peak? They went on to win league titles with other top teams.

If you want to ask what Fergie would have done with Martial, you need to look at his record with young players. Did he sell Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Beckham or Rooney when they were young, and replace them with more established players to speed up the transition process? Of course not. He built the teams and waited for the rewards to come.

Yes, Ronaldo was sold when he just 24 years old. And did he buy established players? Yes, Berbatov (27 when he joined) and RVP (29 when he joined) being prime examples.

The reason fans see selling Martial as wrong is because he clearly has so much potential and hasn't fulfilled that potential with us. His body language has been rubbish lately but the talent is clearly there, and we don't want him to come back to haunt us - like two of Mourinho's high-profile recent sales are haunting Chelsea.

Which two are you refering to? KDB and Salah? KDB demanded more playing time, so was sold because Jose couldn't give it to him (he asked him to be patient but KDB said no). As for Salah, he was sold by Chelsea in August, 2016. Jose was sacked by Chelsea in December, 2015. Jose didn't sell Salah.

One more thing: When Fergie sold Hughes, Ince and Kanchelskis in '95 there were murders in the press and a telephone fan poll of United fans suggested he should go. The reaction was far more hysterical back than the recent outcry over Martial, and Fergie had won two league titles. It was only his relentless success which meant he avoided scrutiny for the later sales of Beckham, Stam etc.

And Jose has been relentlessly successful too, he's won the Prem 3 times, the Champions League twice, Europa League twice, FA Cup, League Cup 3 times, La Liga title, Copa Del Rey, Supercopa de Espana, Serie A title, Supercoppa Italiana, Coppa Italia, Primeira title, Portuguese Super Cup. He is the only manager in history to win every domestic title, cup, super cup and league cup in four European leagues.

But hey, Martial is more important right?
 
So if no one can shine under Mourinho, how the hell has he won more than almost any other manager out there?

Ok - to be clear - our Mourihno - not the Special version of Mourinho that other teams had.

Tell me - has Martial or anyone that plays for United markedly improved in the last 2 years?
 
The manager that you speak of had already proven himself by then. Took a sleeping giant and made them Champions over and over again.

See my comment above, Jose is a multiple league and Cup winner across 4 European Leagues. Jose has proven himself long before joining us. He's won the Prem 3 times. Fun fact, Jose also holds the record for most home wins a season (2005/6), and most away wins in a season (2004/5). Are you really saying he hasn't proved himself?

Jose has done nothing to merit that as of now. We are 2nd, but a mile away from the first place. We lost to Sevilla at home in the most pathetic way possible. All he has done is achieve the bare minimum.

True, we are a mile away off City. But that's ignoring the fact City are having a potentially record breaking season. To beat them, we'd have to have an even more record season! So we are not happy because we've not had a record breaking season?

I was a firm supporter of Jose when he arrived, but things have not gone as well as I expected. A team which has Pogba, Lukaku, Sanchez, Mata, Martial and Rashford struggles to put together any attack. We always seem to depend on individual moments to score, rather than being well coached.

We're averaging 2 goals a game. Not bad considering we 'struggle' to put an attack together.

On the other side, our bitter rivals have gone to the CL semis, scoring record amount of goals, with a midfield that would most likely not even make it into our squad. So on one side, a sqaud is overachieving and on the other, it is vastly underachieving.

Liverpool have scored more goals. Great, and where are they in the league? You don't get more points if you score more goals, so what are you saying, you'll take goals over points? Baffling, absolutely baffling.
 
Mourinho is long past his best.

Let's look at semi-recent shall we, say past 6 years?

2011/12 season - Won La Liga with Real Madrid (record breaking season, most points, most goals, most away wins, highest goal difference)
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Real Madrid (second year in row got the semi-finals)

2012/13 season - Won Supercopa de Espana with Real Madrid
- 2nd in La Liga
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Real Madrid (third year in a row he had reached the semi-finals)

2013/14 season - 3rd in the Premier League with Chelsea (4 points off first)
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Chelsea (fourth year in a row he had reached the semi-finals)

2014/15 season - Won Premier League with Chelsea (8 points clear, first league title for Chelsea since 2010)
- Won League Cup
- Last 16 of Champions League

2015/16 season - Sacked by Chelsea in December

2016/17 season - Won Europa League with Utd
- Won League Cup
- 6th in the Premier League

2017/18 season as of today - 2nd in Premier League (scored more points and more goals than previous season and let in less goals than previous season)
- Last 16 of Champions League
- Semi-final of FA Cup

That seems to be consistent winning football in the top two leagues in the world as far as I can tell.
 
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I think Martial is considerably better than Rashford. He's a better dribbler, he has better control of the ball and he's a better finisher as well.

His ceiling is much higher.

Not so sure as I think Rashford is quicker up top (brain) than Martial who’s off the ball runs are poor and he almost always receives the ball on a standing start suggests to me he’s a bit one dimensional in his thought.
 
Let's look at semi-recent shall we, say past 6 years?

2011/12 season - Won La Liga with Real Madrid (record breaking season, most points, most goals, most away wins, highest goal difference)
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Real Madrid (second year in row got the semi-finals)

2012/13 season - Won Supercopa de Espana with Real Madrid
- 2nd in La Liga
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Real Madrid (third year in a row he had reached the semi-finals)

2013/14 season - 3rd in the Premier League with Chelsea (4 points off first)
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Chelsea (fourth year in a row he had reached the semi-finals)

2014/15 season - Won Premier League with Chelsea (8 points clear, first league title for Chelsea since 2010)
- Won League Cup
- Last 16 of Champions League

2015/16 season - Sacked by Chelsea in December

2016/17 season - Won Europa League with Utd
- Won League Cup
- 6th in the Premier League

2017/18 season as of today - 2nd in Premier League (scored more points and more goals than previous season and let in less goals than previous season)
- Last 16 of Champions League
- Semi-final of FA Cup

That seems to be consistent winning football in the top two leagues in the world as far as I can tell.

Magnificent reply to be fair.
 
If only he had better body language when we don’t have the ball. I think Mourinho doesn’t fancy him because many times he looks like he is trying to be Mr. cool and can’t be bothered too much about defending from the front. Meanwhile, Lingard and others with much less talent just run from one place to another trying to look busy and recover the ball.
 
The example you gave shows he favoured cantona, yes, but didn't marginalise the young players. In fact apart from cantona everyone got the same treatment.

Also you suggest Lukaku is a good pl striker but "not the best." i agree - but that doesn't mean he's proven at the elite level.

Wrong on the marginalising young players!
Giggs was another one who he would pick out in the dressing room in front of everyone telling him he wasn't playing good enough.
 
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Let's look at semi-recent shall we, say past 6 years?

2011/12 season - Won La Liga with Real Madrid (record breaking season, most points, most goals, most away wins, highest goal difference)
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Real Madrid (second year in row got the semi-finals)

2012/13 season - Won Supercopa de Espana with Real Madrid
- 2nd in La Liga
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Real Madrid (third year in a row he had reached the semi-finals)

2013/14 season - 3rd in the Premier League with Chelsea (4 points off first)
- Semi-final of the Champions League with Chelsea (fourth year in a row he had reached the semi-finals)

2014/15 season - Won Premier League with Chelsea (8 points clear, first league title for Chelsea since 2010)
- Won League Cup
- Last 16 of Champions League

2015/16 season - Sacked by Chelsea in December

2016/17 season - Won Europa League with Utd
- Won League Cup
- 6th in the Premier League

2017/18 season as of today - 2nd in Premier League (scored more points and more goals than previous season and let in less goals than previous season)
- Last 16 of Champions League
- Semi-final of FA Cup

That seems to be consistent winning football in the top two leagues in the world as far as I can tell.
Good post. However, do a comparison with 2002-2010 and you'll see what I mean ;)