So past 6 seasons: 0 CLs, bottled 4 semifinals in CL. 1 LaLiga in a 2 horse race, being one of the biggest spenders. At the end colossal meltdown, players riot, left. After hiring Zizu, Real Madrid are owning CL; 2CL cups in the semis in third year. Light years ahead of Mou times. Then Chelsea stint: 1 PL, next season 3-4 points above relegation zone. Players riot, sacked. The very next season, Conte walks the league with the team that was left in ruins by Jose. United times: 1 EL which guarantees just participation in CL. Sixth in the league. Inability to manage both EL and the Prem. Fecked up top 4, concentrated on Asecond rate european trophy. Second season out of title race before New Year for two sessons in a row, total feck up in the first knock out round in CL against a team that lost its major players in previous seasons managed by a rookie manager. Having brought 7 players, spent 300+ million quid. Tranfers wise: Bailly inconsistent, Lindelof shaky, Pogba far from Juve form, Matic exhausted, Ibra gone, Mkhi a colossal failure, Sanchez far from Arsenal form and having worse stats than Martial.
Martial | Di Marzio thinks he will stay
- Thread starter Hellboy
- Start date
There are no certainties, pal only that the upside is too big to ignore and yes there's that possibility that he wouldn't do well for us but he'd so well elsewhere. But why does this have to be the case? Is our system too hard for players like him or are there underlying issues that need to be looked into?
Remember there was that notion that De Bruyne was not putting in the effort, was weakminded, lazy, etc and indeed if there was any truth in all that claim, the question stands that where there underlying issues that needed to be dealt or the player innately lacked the will power, the drive and effort to become successful at the club?
What I'm saying in essence is that there are questions we need to ask and there could be a way out of this situation if the gaffer would be willing to not put his ego first before all else but I doubt he'd ever bend.
Bottled 4 semi-finals? Pep, who seems to be the standard against which people hold these days, lost 3 semi-finals between 2013-2016. Is he a bottler too then? He only reached the last 16 last year and the quarter finals this year with the supposedly elite City in the CL. So he's bottled it even more?
The other big spender being Barcelona. So your point is what?
Just like our fickle fans, the fickle Real fans are actually calling for Zizu to be sacked because they are 15 points behind Barca in the league. You realise that right? Despite him apparently owning the CL, and despite him being a big spender.
Jose is an arse for concentrating on a second rate European trophy? You mean the trophy that got us back in the CL? What an arse for winning us that eh, how dare he
Rather have not won it at all.Evrey other Prem team was out of the title run by New years too. Shame on us for City having a record breaking season eh. How dare we not have a better record breaking season.
You mean that rubbish team that the mighty Bayern only just beat 2-1? Seville can't be that bad if Bayern only won 2-1. Why on earth should they have been a walk over? They qualified for the last 16, you're not crap if you qualify for the last 16.
Ibra gone. So it was Jose's fault Ibra got major ligament damage? It's Jose's fault Ibra is 36 years old? Was Ibra playing regular football this year?
Mkhi a colossal failure? We swapped him for Sanchez, seems like damn good business to me.
You're a weak fan if not winning every trophy, every year means the manager should be sacked. You also don't understand football if you think a win should be nailed on, history has shown that not to be the case. And that's why the game is so great. Anyone can win on any given day. If you can't handle that, you can't handle football.
How many major CL games did Fergie bottle? Amazing he lasted as long as he did.
'Bottled'
'Bottled'
Regarding the bolded, Lukaku says hi
Even De Gea would have left if things went according to plan and the fax machine didn't 'save' us. At the end of the day players cater for themselves first before they look at the interests of the club.
Whenever Martial gets the opportunity he never stops to deliver on the metrics that count the most. Jose has got his preferences and that's not a bad thing only that we don't have to claim that the determining factor as to who plays and who doesn't is fair to all.
Here is an example of the ridiculous mentality amongst press, pundits, and fans these days. According to Chris Sutton,
Man Utd boss Jose Mourinho is responsible for Man City Premier League title win: https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...rdiola-Premier-League-Paul-Pogba-Chris-Sutton
Really? Jose was at fault for all the other teams letting City beat them? I didn't know Jose managed all the other teams as well as Utd.
Man Utd boss Jose Mourinho is responsible for Man City Premier League title win: https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...rdiola-Premier-League-Paul-Pogba-Chris-Sutton
Really? Jose was at fault for all the other teams letting City beat them? I didn't know Jose managed all the other teams as well as Utd.
Chris Sutton is a moron and on that basis, would be right at home here. However, I don't believe that he believes anything that he says as a pundit.
A large number of posters here, however...
Pep is a bottler in CL. However he is fantastic in league campaigns. Mou is not. Zizu is terrific in CL, Mou is not. Sevilla lost to Bayern just by 1 goal, is it a matter of pride now? Winning EL is nothing compared to CL and it is a second rate European trophy, fact. So Mou is a bottler in CL, just like Pool are in bottlers in the Prem. To sum up Mous time at United: total feck up in the Prem by being out of title race before new year in both seasons. Won a second rate European trophy and fecked up against a team under a rookie manager. You can check the stats of Sevilla in La Liga this season and see how mighty they are for yourself. 36 year old Ibra was bought by Mou. Most expensive player in the world at tbe time was bought by Mou, Lindelof and Bailly were bought by Mou, Mkhi and Sanchez were bought by Mou too and they are yet to replicate their form.that they had in their previous clubs. That is enough from me, as we are going circles. 300+million quid spent, 7 players bought, still no cohesion, De Gea is still by far our best and most important player.Bottled 4 semi-finals? Pep, who seems to be the standard against which people hold these days, lost 3 semi-finals between 2013-2016. Is he a bottler too then? He only reached the last 16 last year and the quarter finals this year with the supposedly elite City in the CL. So he's bottled it even more?
The other big spender being Barcelona. So your point is what?
Just like our fickle fans, the fickle Real fans are actually calling for Zizu to be sacked because they are 15 points behind Barca in the league. You realise that right? Despite him apparently owning the CL, and despite him being a big spender.
Jose is an arse for concentrating on a second rate European trophy? You mean the trophy that got us back in the CL? What an arse for winning us that eh, how dare he
Evrey other Prem team was out of the title run by New years too. Shame on us for City having a record breaking season eh. How dare we not have a better record breaking season.
You mean that rubbish team that the mighty Bayern only just beat 2-1? Seville can't be that bad if Bayern only won 2-1. Why on earth should they have been a walk over? They qualified for the last 16, you're not crap if you qualify for the last 16.
Ibra gone. So it was Jose's fault Ibra got major ligament damage? It's Jose's fault Ibra is 36 years old? Was Ibra playing regular football this year?
Mkhi a colossal failure? We swapped him for Sanchez, seems like damn good business to me.
You're a weak fan if not winning every trophy, every year means the manager should be sacked. You also don't understand football if you think a win should be nailed on, history has shown that not to be the case. And that's why the game is so great. Anyone can win on any given day. If you can't handle that, you can't handle football.
Sanchez wasn't 'bought'. Carry on.
Jose’s sign he wants him to stay?
The manager has always wanted him to stay, but wants him as a squad player and rotational option. Martial wants to be a key part of the team rather than a periphery figure.
How many major CL games did Fergie bottle? Amazing he lasted as long as he did.
'Bottled'
Bias is very strong for SAF. You remember losing to Barca twice in the final. Or against Bayern and Real in the semi finals. Granted both times we were completely robbed. But SAF has lost a lot of matches that Utd should have won. Missed out on so many trophies. But was good enough to win the PL.
Nowadays people would most definitely be wanting him sacked by today's impatient culture. Ever since after 09/10 Utd played very standard boring football. And I was spoilt by SAF winning all the time ever since I first followed Utd. So I'm just patient enough to see if Mourinho does anything better next year, he'll have no more excuses then. Just really don't want us sacking a manager every year. We are better than that.
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I'll be very very sad if Martial leaves. It's very clear he's an amazing player. it's like that stupid Di Maria problem.
What has this discussion got to do with Martial? the trend lately is any and every thread is in some or other way related to 'Jose Bashing'. I understand the manager needs to be discussed when a certain departure of a young talent is being talked about. But this is getting ridiculous.
Yeah. I read a Jose quote he expects Martial to stay. Wouldn’t be surprised if much of this is just typical media blowing some contract negotiations out of proportion.
As for peripheral figure...this goes back to the summer for me. Jose wants a certain type of width that our fullbacks don’t provide. If we had gotten in a player like say Perisic or this summer a couple good fullbacks it will probably lead to Martial getting more time. His lack of time is I think more about the team balance than anything (obv Lukaku being the main striker )
Check how my conversation with this poster started. Then ask this poster a question that you asked me. Ciao.
I definitely see your point, but looking at his longstanding interest in Bale, doesn't that show he is capable of using wide forwards in his attack? Bale doesn't really play like your typical winger anymore and he isn't a playmaker either. If he has an issue with those kind of players, why would he be looking at Bale? I suppose I should mention Ronaldo too, who he managed to use pretty well at Real. I don't think Mou only has two types of wide player he's willing to use.
There was a point in the winter where Martial started 6 or 7 games in a row. We have seen already, that if you are not in the manager's plan then you are frozen out.
Darmian, Blind, Shaw get a game every few months. They are obviously being sold if we get a good offer.
I think you are right with Martial's tactical problems, he is a very unique player that you have to adapt the team around.
Jose would be absolutely crazy to get rid of Martial. I feel like he would excel with a counter attacking team that employs the high press. I would love him at Liverpool, but no way in hell that's happening. His pace and intelligent runs is probably why such high caliber teams are linked with him (Barcelona & Juventus). If sold, imo I believe he will become another Salah/KDB situation.
What makes you think he wants Bale? He's already stated that we won't be signing any attacking players. I suppose if Martial leaves we might be in for someone.
I don't really buy that managers can be past it. If anything, he should be better with more experience.
Van Gaal, Wenger and several others are a prime example which show that managers can be past it.
Bring back Sir Alex and I'd wager he'd get an extra 10% out of our current squad. There are a lot of older successful managers around. Any manager can become stale, it doesn't mean they're past it...
Bro I'm all in the "Mourinho should leave" camp without going into too much detail.
There is no way he will change his philosophy and there is no he is leaving anyway so this is why I am saying that Martial being transfered could be the best possible solution for all parties. We gain nothing by playing him part time and he gains nothing from being benched regularly
We aren't saying that all old managers become "past it" as they age. But some certainly do. SAF continuously updated himself.
I'm guessing that's more because of a loss of motivation, rather than ability. Not being able to motivate the players for example. Mourinho should be more motivated than ever, being up against Pep and the club which got rid of him. Especially this season given what City are doing.
fecking criminal if we let him go. Massive talent.
If we play attacking football you get the best out of him. His goal/assist to minutes ratio is up there with the best.
If we play attacking football you get the best out of him. His goal/assist to minutes ratio is up there with the best.
I think he has not been the best today with his dribbles but some very very nice passing, still imo he has been better than Sanchez... Very different players though but nevertheless.
There's a really good player in him. Not everything he does comes off but he gives us much better balance. He commits defenders and the players have an understanding with him. Better player than Sanchez for me.
Of course he wasn't at his best. Professional performance like the rest of the team.
Yes indeed. I hope he does not leave.
Bale can offer genuine width and go on the outside. He is way closer to a winger than Martial is. Ronaldo is a player you make concessions for and have players cover for him defensively because he is that good. Even now, Benzema sacrifices himself a lot for Ronaldo. We cannot expect that sort of treatment for Martial. If he was Neymar or Ronaldo it’s a different story, and you’d just build a team around him.
We? Are you using 2 accounts or sharing 1 brain?
Sir Alex at Utd and Mou at Utd are incomparable. Wenger is past it. Also,I said can be past it. Never said all are past it. Now please show me an old manager these days who had a prolonged blip at the top level and was then able to reinvent himself and become successful at the very top agsin. Sir Alex retired at the top and is never coming back. He also managed one club for 26 years, can't compare him to anyone.
I hope he stays because he is truly a top class talent.
However, I can understand why he would maybe look towards an exit. Think about it, he was signed for massive money and instantly made an impact.
Then, he gets his number changed (no big deal to us ordinary folk, but a big deal for the player I bet), he gets less game time, in and out of form.
Then when having his best ever season, we go and sign Sanchez and instantly without hesitation give Sanchez his position. Sanchez has hardly been in form and bar the Bourmeouth start, Martial just cannot get a kick for us.
I genuinely think he is a bit baffled by 1: his treatment and 2: how our set up does not suit attacking players.
It's a big issue for Jose, as he does not seem to get the best out of any of our flair players at the moment. If 1 big player goes, what message does that send to the rest?
Another issue for me is, if he stays will we actually get the best out of him anyway? Cos I'm sure Sanchez will be straight back in the team for the Spurs FA cup game, leaving Martial benched yet again.
I'd go as far as saying we are currently wasting his talent, and he's not the only utd player I could say this for which is a concern.....
However, I can understand why he would maybe look towards an exit. Think about it, he was signed for massive money and instantly made an impact.
Then, he gets his number changed (no big deal to us ordinary folk, but a big deal for the player I bet), he gets less game time, in and out of form.
Then when having his best ever season, we go and sign Sanchez and instantly without hesitation give Sanchez his position. Sanchez has hardly been in form and bar the Bourmeouth start, Martial just cannot get a kick for us.
I genuinely think he is a bit baffled by 1: his treatment and 2: how our set up does not suit attacking players.
It's a big issue for Jose, as he does not seem to get the best out of any of our flair players at the moment. If 1 big player goes, what message does that send to the rest?
Another issue for me is, if he stays will we actually get the best out of him anyway? Cos I'm sure Sanchez will be straight back in the team for the Spurs FA cup game, leaving Martial benched yet again.
I'd go as far as saying we are currently wasting his talent, and he's not the only utd player I could say this for which is a concern.....
This.Good post. However, do a comparison with 2002-2010 and you'll see what I mean
Mourinho's league and CL record, the success he should really be judged on, is heavily concentrated in the first half of his managerial career (2002-10).
In the second half of his career (2010-18) he's won two league titles and not reached a single CL final. And that's with Real Madrid (one of the two wealthiest clubs in Spain), Chelsea (one of the three wealthiest clubs in England and CL winners 12 months before he arrived) and United (another of the three wealthiest clubs in England).
We can all agree that the first half of his managerial career was incredible but the second half has been average, given the clubs he's managed. A bit like Wenger and Brian Clough, it seems he's gone from being an amazing manager to merely a decent one during the latter part of his career.
Obviously if he stays another year with us, I hope he turns it round, like Fergie did after a much shorter fallow period, but I think he'll need to reinvent himself and his approach to do it.
Based purely on his attitude on the pitch, it seems Martial isn't the easiest character to work with and he does things which must drive the manager mad, like not tracking back or playing batshit-crazy passes like the one which almost cost a goal last night. I was reading a French article posted on the Caf which said he isn't the sharpest tool in the box, and that definitely comes through in his play.
But I agree he's been treated badly. He was the star man in his first season, one of the few who shone in that dismal team, and Mourinho rewarded him by taking his number off him. It's not a big deal for us but if you're building a brand for yourself, as he was, that would certainly have been annoying.
Mourinho also pushed him out to the left wing, even though he'd played striker a lot in his first year, then started dropping him from the team. First Ibra and then Lukaku have been Mourinho's main men and never dropped, even when they've had stinkers.
Now Sanchez has taken his role on the left wing as well. If I was Martial, I'd certainly feel a little peeved.
Spot on.
Heynckes could be the only one, you have late bloomers like Sarri and then you have most older manager working for national teams aka football's retirement home.