Martial | Di Marzio thinks he will stay

[davidmichael]

An example of good man management by Jose would be to play BOTH Martial AND Rashford tonight against Bournemouth and say to them “you want to start every game and be first choice in your positions, go out and show me why you should be and cement that position” and then it’s on them to perform.

If both were the best players on pitch tonight then dropped for Lukaku and Sanchez for the semi final and we then lost and both Lukaku and Sanchez were awful yet again then that’s on Jose and it simply adds to the case against Jose being in charge and the board need to make a decision on whether Jose is the best man for OUR job, I’m now in the camp of Jose isn’t and someone else with modern ideas and long term visions (Pocchettino, Tuchel, Luis Enrique, Allegri) whilst being able to integrate youth should be brought in as the fact we’re often talking about getting rid of two thirds of the squad says something about management and the way we’re set up tactically.

 

[worldinmotion66]

I wouldn't blame him in the slightest if he wanted to leave, he's been totally mismanaged by Jose over the last two years and he's seen Sanchez come in and have chance after chance with less output.

I think he'll leave and we will massively regret it. It's obvious that we have an abundance of attacking talent that isn't being properly utilised. We need to have martial playing closer to the opposition goal.

 

[Canagel]

It would be a huge mistake to let him go.
His goal involvement rate is up there with the best players in the league Only Salah, Aguero, Sterling and Kane have a better goal involvement rate in the PL. Nobody in our team comes close to his levels of productivity. 9 goals and 5 assists in only 16 starts is very impressive for someone who hasn't started more than 2 games in a row this season. If he had be given the minutes Lukaku has had I'm sure Martial would be on at least 20 goals if not more this season. http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-a-crossroads-in-his-manchester-united-career

 

[Janson]

I would be inclined to agree with you but is anyone going to shine playing for Mourinho. I am no big fan of Martial and I think he needs a manager that will get him playing in a system that suits him. There is a player in there that can be amazing but IMO he will never be seen with Jose as manager - so for that reason he has a right to reject any new deal.

I am not sure any of the players are overjoyed at the current state of affairs

So if no one can shine under Mourinho, how the hell has he won more than almost any other manager out there?

 

[JohnnyKills]

It's all good if you cannot be arsed about the possibility of loosing Martial but consider the following points:

Ask any Chelsea fan today and they'll tell you that they could have done with a KDB in their team right now but we were sold the fable that the boy's character was questionable. That viewpoint for many was questionable because the lad was not given a fair chance for compete for a shirt and I remember that game vs Hull City iirc when I thought to myself, 'this boy is a star in the making'. It was on the back of the gaffer's response after that game that he reportedly decided that he'd be better off elsewhere perhaps. It begs the question, was Jose's mind made up from the onset?

KDB in the city team is a walking machine that never stops going. Seems to be a little fatigued now though.

You don't seem to realize that a similar scenario is playing out where we glorify short-termism over and above what the future holds. Martial has got time on his side and is on an upward trajectory whilst Sanchez is approaching the end of his 'shelf life' sadly. Now there is every possibility that Sanchez wouldn't hit the heights that we have imagined that he would (God forbid, however it's always safer to plan for the worst case scenario).

Its not like both of them cannot start in the same side or they cannot both fight for a place at the very least.

Some players get a nod irrespective of their form whilst some others will be left out at the slightest opportunity. Tell me, where's the competition? If both players were fighting for a place, that would be more fair and imo, would bring out the best in both players but when one player knows or feels that he's just there pending when the manager gets the opportunity to let him go, it'd be hard to give his unreserved commitment. From the word go, Jose's body language has not really helped to shake off the feeling that maybe he's second choice. I'm talking particularly about him being stripped off his shirt for one who it was clear wouldn't be in the team for much longer.

Now the way bright attackers are being priced in the market is another factor that makes this whole saga all the more sad.

Let's say no to short-termism.

Completely agree.

I guess the Chelsea fans are more forgiving of the KDB/Salah mistakes because they had very little success before Mourinho arrived and he's something of a messiah for them. Mate at work who supports Chelsea says he'd get rid of Conte and take Mourinho back now. I'm sure many of them think that getting rid of KDB and Salah, and bringing in proven players like Fabregas, was worth it because they won the league in 2015 - only the fifth time they've ever won it.

But at United we've been privileged enough to witness dozens of trophies over the last 30 years, so we can afford to be more long-term in our outlook. Personally I'm not particularly bothered about winning the league or CL over the next couple of years; it's more important to put proper foundations in place, like we did in the early years under Ferguson when we brought in a lot of young players who could grow.

Players like Sanchez and Perisic might take us to the league title next year, but players like Martial and Rashford have the potential to give us a whole era of success.

 

[kouroux]

If we have ever made a mistake in the transfer market before, should we go ahead and make another mistake? Loosing better players in the past is not justification that we can loose one of our brightest prospects and feel okay with that.

You're talking about it it's a sure thing that it's a 100% guarantee mistake without even entertaining it could also be the best thing for both parties. Personally I think it was a mistake to get Sanchez if it wasn't to play him on the right and if it was to impact Martial but now the situation is what it is, Sanchez ain't gonna get benched and Martial will never be happy being on the bench, therefore the best solution is for him to leave. Specially when he'll probably miss out on the World Cup squad after being involved in the latest squads.

 

[wolvored]

Now we have Sanchez on the left and for some reason Martial and Rashford have looked poor on the right, Mourinho will probably bring in a left footed attacker or right winger. This will mean at least one will probably be sold as he wont keep them both happy on the bench. Martial would probably be the best bet to leave as this would sit better with the board than Rashford going. (kid from the reserves etc)

 

[Red_toad]

It would be a huge mistake to let him go.
His goal involvement rate is up there with the best players in the league Only Salah, Aguero, Sterling and Kane have a better goal involvement rate in the PL. Nobody in our team comes close to his levels of productivity. 9 goals and 5 assists in only 16 starts is very impressive for someone who hasn't started more than 2 games in a row this season. If he had be given the minutes Lukaku has had I'm sure Martial would be on at least 20 goals if not more this season. http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-a-crossroads-in-his-manchester-united-career

So you completely disregard all his appearances? Unless he started but count all his goals and assists from the bench . This feckin thread is shocking. Lads in contract negotiations, media love to hype it up and the Caf lap it up and charge off with their agendas to suit...

 

[Thisistheone]

You’re contradicting yourself. You say Mourinho is spending too much on transfers to be 2nd in the league.

Then you point out how City spent most and are 1st place, United 2nd...

Get off Bayern nuts too - the league is garbage and Pep got them no better than a 90 year old Heynckes (so much for you talking about out dated managers).

If they want Martial they can have him - he’s lazy, no confidence, and refuses to learn a new language - good luck in Germany LOL

"good luck in Germany LOL"? - Why is that funny?

No contradiction, I was pointing out how spending usually shows where teams end up but in the case of Liverpool and Spurs, especially Spurs, they have spent a fraction of the money we have to be 3 points behind while playing a more modern brand of football. Does that reflect well on Jose? At least Pep is miles ahead.

In Liverpool's case, they're playing far better football than us, are in a CL semi-final and looking a good bet to kick on even more next season. Their manager has made very good buys and improved a lot of players to a large degree. Can you say that about our manager?

Bayern are in a league they dominate, no doubt, but they're amazingly well run from top to bottom, continually one of the best sides in Europe nearly always getting to the latter stages of the CL and possibly winning it again this season.

Heynckes is an exception, like Fergie was. You have great managers who defy time but often its the other way around and managers fail to keep up with the game at the very highest level. Wenger, Van Gaal, Capello, Lippi, Sacchi, Benitez, & perhaps Mourinho, you'd not have any of these back at the biggest sides around today, great as they once were.

Look, Martial could go to Bayern or Juve and flop. Or he could go there and fulfill his potential. My point was that its a worry we're selling off young talented players deemed good enough for sides who are already better than us, who play a more cohesive attacking game.

 

[Canagel]

So you completely disregard all his appearances? Unless he started but count all his goals and assists from the bench . This feckin thread is shocking. Lads in contract negotiations, media love to hype it up and the Caf lap it up and charge off with their agendas to suit...

It doesn't matter. The point stands. He has the least minutes of all our attackers whether starting or from the bench and is more productive than anyone else with less minutes.

 

[Ish]

Swap deal with Barca for Dembele Their style and where they play mean they'd both be better fits at our clubs, IMO. Hehehe, one can hope.

Joking aside, I don't want Martial sold but things isn't currently working for him or Jose. So you wouldn't blame either party if they were to move on, but I think it would be a massive mistake, unless we managed to get another (of similar or greater) quality player (who can play on the right) in return.

@El Jefe good post.

 

[Lentwood]

It's all good if you cannot be arsed about the possibility of loosing Martial but consider the following points:

Ask any Chelsea fan today and they'll tell you that they could have done with a KDB in their team right now but we were sold the fable that the boy's character was questionable. That viewpoint for many was questionable because the lad was not given a fair chance for compete for a shirt and I remember that game vs Hull City iirc when I thought to myself, 'this boy is a star in the making'. It was on the back of the gaffer's response after that game that he reportedly decided that he'd be better off elsewhere perhaps. It begs the question, was Jose's mind made up from the onset?

KDB in the city team is a walking machine that never stops going. Seems to be a little fatigued now though.

You don't seem to realize that a similar scenario is playing out where we glorify short-termism over and above what the future holds. Martial has got time on his side and is on an upward trajectory whilst Sanchez is approaching the end of his 'shelf life' sadly. Now there is every possibility that Sanchez wouldn't hit the heights that we have imagined that he would (God forbid, however it's always safer to plan for the worst case scenario).

Its not like both of them cannot start in the same side or they cannot both fight for a place at the very least.

Some players get a nod irrespective of their form whilst some others will be left out at the slightest opportunity. Tell me, where's the competition? If both players were fighting for a place, that would be more fair and imo, would bring out the best in both players but when one player knows or feels that he's just there pending when the manager gets the opportunity to let him go, it'd be hard to give his unreserved commitment. From the word go, Jose's body language has not really helped to shake off the feeling that maybe he's second choice. I'm talking particularly about him being stripped off his shirt for one who it was clear wouldn't be in the team for much longer.

Now the way bright attackers are being priced in the market is another factor that makes this whole saga all the more sad.

Let's say no to short-termism.

The difference at Chelsea was that these players didn't get much of a chance because the team were winning titles and they had genuine top-quality players ahead of them in the team.

I'm not accepting that Martial hasn't had chances. I'm also not saying that Martial hasn't played well at times. What I am saying is that when I watch Martial, I don't see a lad who would die for the shirt. That's not just based on body-language, which can be misleading, it's based on his actions on the pitch.

Let me get to the crux of the issue. Manchester City have dropped points in 5 games this season. Three draws, two defeats. It will be difficult for them to maintain that level of performance again next season, however, we do expect them to go big in the market again. I would expect they will win 30 games next year minimum.

When Jose talks about consistency, this is what he is referring to. We have to be relentless. We can't have players putting in a good game here and there followed by an average one. Great players are 7/10 even on an off-day. Players like Willian and Perisic might have fewer 9/10 games than Martial, but they very rarely drop below a 7/10. The likes of Martial are 8 or 9/10 on a good day but also throw in their fair share of absolute horrorshows. This will continue to cost us and is one of the reasons Jose doesn't trust him

 

[Water Melon]

The difference at Chelsea was that these players didn't get much of a chance because the team were winning titles and they had genuine top-quality players ahead of them in the team.

I'm not accepting that Martial hasn't had chances. I'm also not saying that Martial hasn't played well at times. What I am saying is that when I watch Martial, I don't see a lad who would die for the shirt. That's not just based on body-language, which can be misleading, it's based on his actions on the pitch.

Let me get to the crux of the issue. Manchester City have dropped points in 5 games this season. Three draws, two defeats. It will be difficult for them to maintain that level of performance again next season, however, we do expect them to go big in the market again. I would expect they will win 30 games next year minimum.

When Jose talks about consistency, this is what he is referring to. We have to be relentless. We can't have players putting in a good game here and there followed by an average one. Great players are 7/10 even on an off-day. Players like Willian and Perisic might have fewer 9/10 games than Martial, but they very rarely drop below a 7/10. The likes of Martial are 8 or 9/10 on a good day but also throw in their fair share of absolute horrorshows. This will continue to cost us and is one of the reasons Jose doesn't trust him

How many players are there in the City team who would die for their shirts? In Madrid team? If it is not Martial's body language, then how do you see that?
As for Willian and Perisic they do have tons of blips in their games as well. How old is Martial and what is the age of Perisic? Also, it is quite natural for players to be able to produce better performances in systems and tactics that suit their style. It is also a number one priority for a top manager to get maximum out of players that he has at his disposal and to build on that further with future transfers. So far, I have not seen anything to suggest that Mou is putting in any 7/10 performances. Last year he achieved the minimum goal, which is qualifying for the CL. This season he is competing against the likes of Spurs, Pool, Chelsea and Arse, not against the very best teams in Europe. We are witnessing how far off we are from being Champions in the Prem and challenging for CL. Time for Mou to show that he is still up to it, bragging about the past does not cut it. His most recent past is mainly about spectacular feck ups which he never mentions either. If you want to compare player for player, then lets compare manager for manager and buck for buck that these managers spend (players bought and sold). If you do this, then Sevilla's rookie manager is currently millions miles ahead of Mou. Context is important, and if two seasons and hundreds of millions spent are anything to go by, then I have not seen Mou really challenging neither for the Prem or CL.

 

[Red_toad]

It doesn't matter. The point stands. He has the least minutes of all our attackers whether starting or from the bench and is more productive than anyone else with less minutes.

Only doesn’t matter in your perspective. Plus he’s had a lot more minutes than Sanchez, something else you’ve failed to factor into your contribution.

 

[Jig1234]

 

[Adisa]

Mourinho better win big trophies because when he doesn't, there's nothing left.

 

[JPRouve]

Have a look at Bleacher Report, it will cheer you up.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Barca supposedly intrested with a £60mil bid.

 

[BluesJr]

We’ll regret selling him and all those backing Mourinho will look pretty silly in a few years. Martial has not been good enough that’s clear, he needs to work harder but it’s obvious that he is struggling with the motivation because the manager just doesn’t really have faith in him, he never has and it’s always been apparent despite starting a lot of games.

This is such a weird time to be a fan, things look ok on paper but none of it is feeling right somehow, and I can’t see what good will come of selling our most talented players when we are nowhere near the top. Yes, we will replace them if they go but there’s absolutely no guarantees we’ll be any better off.

 

[giorno]

Straight swap with Bale incoming

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

The hotel dwelling boreasaurus strikes again with his inability to recognize or nurture young talent. We will have a team with an average age of 30 next season. This Dean guy probably know nothing.

 

[Santoryo]

Who is this guy?

 

[redpatron]

Barca supposedly intrested with a £60mil bid.

Take him, I think I will finally jump on having griezmann to united bandwagon.

 

[breakout67]

Martial out, Dybala/Griezmann in and I won't give a single feck. Martial has no affiliation to the club, he doesn't support United and isn't an academy player, you can't expect him to stay beyond 4-5 years.

The talk of his 'potential' is premature because modern players are rarely one club men. Chances are he will win everything and move clubs for a new challenge, or we will still be stuck in limbo like we are now and he will move to a better team.

Players like Rashford, Lingard and Pogba have a good chance of staying their whole careers. Hopefully Chong and Gomes do the same.

 

[El Jefe]

It’s quite obvious why lukaku was given more. He is a proven scorer who started very well and went off boil for a few games. Lukaku is someone who has proven for multiple seasons at different clubs he can score. Same with Sanchez. Guys like martial and Rashford are not in that category yet so not given that bit of leeway.

Rashford wasn’t preferred over martial at all. Martial started most matches in November and December on the contrary.

It was more than just a few games Lukaku was out of form. 4 goals in 20 appearances despite playing the full 90 minutes in 17 of those games. Not only did Jose not rotate or sub him, he bizarrely praised Lukaku in many of these games saying his centre forward didn't need to score and that he was ok with his performances.

My point is Lukaku and now Sanchez haven't been given a little bit of leeway, its immunity at this stage, they can do no wrong in Jose's eyes. I accept him being tougher on the less unproven players but what Jose is doing is clear favouritism.

Last season it was Ibra and now Lukaku and Sanchez. The writing is on the wall for Martial despite the horseshit Jose comes out with to claim otherwise.

 

[JK-27]

Completely agree.

I guess the Chelsea fans are more forgiving of the KDB/Salah mistakes because they had very little success before Mourinho arrived and he's something of a messiah for them. Mate at work who supports Chelsea says he'd get rid of Conte and take Mourinho back now. I'm sure many of them think that getting rid of KDB and Salah, and bringing in proven players like Fabregas, was worth it because they won the league in 2015 - only the fifth time they've ever won it.

But at United we've been privileged enough to witness dozens of trophies over the last 30 years, so we can afford to be more long-term in our outlook. Personally I'm not particularly bothered about winning the league or CL over the next couple of years; it's more important to put proper foundations in place, like we did in the early years under Ferguson when we brought in a lot of young players who could grow.

Players like Sanchez and Perisic might take us to the league title next year, but players like Martial and Rashford have the potential to give us a whole era of success.

We have. Under one manager. A manager who put the team before individuals, who sold Stam, Beckham, RvN because they had lost the team ethic, players who were in their prime and went on to be successful elsewhere but were deemed surplus to Utd. Yet I don't remember fans wanting him sacked for letting them go. It is bizarre that fans see letting Martial go as a sin, yet we've let much more successfull stars go in the past, and moved on and kept winning.

We’ll regret selling him and all those backing Mourinho will look pretty silly in a few years. Martial has not been good enough that’s clear, he needs to work harder but it’s obvious that he is struggling with the motivation because the manager just doesn’t really have faith in him, he never has and it’s always been apparent despite starting a lot of games.

This is such a weird time to be a fan, things look ok on paper but none of it is feeling right somehow, and I can’t see what good will come of selling our most talented players when we are nowhere near the top. Yes, we will replace them if they go but there’s absolutely no guarantees we’ll be any better off.

Predict the future can we? Did we regret selling Stam, Beckham, RvN, Nani...the list goes on.

The hotel dwelling boreasaurus strikes again with his inability to recognize or nurture young talent. We will have a team with an average age of 30 next season.

Everyone throws out the Jose can't nuture young talent line. Forgetting the fact it was Jose who signed that young talent to begin with. Look at some of the Prem's best players and they are all players signed by Jose at some stage (KDB, Salah, Hazard, Matic [signed him, let him go but brought him back], Lukaku). He seems to regularly find the talent to begin with. And if he's so crap a manager why did Lukaku want to work with him again, he was nailed on to join Chelsea (the 2017 Prem winners) before Jose called.

This board is full of fickle fans who can't think beyond the last game.

 

[El Jefe]

Swap deal with Barca for Dembele Their style and where they play mean they'd both be better fits at our clubs, IMO. Hehehe, one can hope.

Joking aside, I don't want Martial sold but things isn't currently working for him or Jose. So you wouldn't blame either party if they were to move on, but I think it would be a massive mistake, unless we managed to get another (of similar or greater) quality player (who can play on the right) in return.

@El Jefe good post.

I feel like this is the only deal that would not make me criticise Jose. It benefits both parties and will solve our right wing problems once and for all. We'd probably have to add cash to the deal though.

 

[Ish]

I feel like this is the only deal that would not make me criticise Jose. It benefits both parties and will solve our right wing problems once and for all. We'd probably have to add cash to the deal though.

Dembele has spent most of the season injured etc. so it's probably unfair of me to say this, but I do think Martial (if he ever came close to fulfilling his potential) would be a better fit for them, especially ever since Neymar left.

Dembele seems a bit more direct, and he plays on the right, which would both suit us to a tee. As you mention, would be a better fit for all parties. But I don't see it as an option, not after Barca spent what, 140m to get Dembele?

The other option is obviously trying to deal with Juve and get someone like Dybala or Costa in return. One thing's for sure, we need to get a RW, whatever happens to Martial. Swap deals aren't very common, so I'm going to refrain from daydreaming now.

 

[Camilo]

I am struggling to see why we have not played both Sanchez and Martial together - Sanchez behind Lukaku and Martial on the left. Sanchez has almost everything to succeed there. At least we can try and see how it pans out.

Sanchez anyway likes to come in the middle of pitch, and martial can stay on the left wing. Yes, martial likes to cut inside every time, and is not ideal to hold the width in the left wing but the combination cannot be any worse than what we are fielding now.

I agree. I'm not saying it would solve all our problems - those are clearly deeper than personnel - but it would make sense on paper. Sanchez seems to want to play deep anyway, so let him. He's seemingly trying to do what Silva does at City, which is fine if you're reletively central, but not fine if you're meant to be giving a little width.

I don't think Martial is a world beater, but he's a talent nonetheless and should be managed better. Jose will have a shot at the league next year for sure, but marginalising players like Martial (and possibly getting rid of) can't help us long term. In 2 years time Sanchez and Matic could well be on the scrap heap..

 

[JohnnyKills]

We have. Under one manager. A manager who put the team before individuals, who sold Stam, Beckham, RvN because they had lost the team ethic, players who were in their prime and went on to be successful elsewhere but were deemed surplus to Utd. Yet I don't remember fans wanting him sacked for letting them go. It is bizarre that fans see letting Martial go as a sin, yet we've let much more successfull stars go in the past, and moved on and kept winning..

You're comparing apples with oranges pal. All of the players you mentioned were in their late 20s, and Fergie thought they had passed their peak.

If you want to ask what Fergie would have done with Martial, you need to look at his record with young players. Did he sell Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Beckham or Rooney when they were young, and replace them with more established players to speed up the transition process? Of course not. He built the teams and waited for the rewards to come.

The reason fans see selling Martial as wrong is because he clearly has so much potential and hasn't fulfilled that potential with us. His body language has been rubbish lately but the talent is clearly there, and we don't want him to come back to haunt us - like two of Mourinho's high-profile recent sales are haunting Chelsea.

Also, if you want to sell all the players who have lost the team ethic, you'd have to get rid of Pogba and Rashford as well as Martial. Would you rather get rid of three of the most talented young players in the world, or a manager whose track record suggests he'll be gone within a couple of years?

One more thing: When Fergie sold Hughes, Ince and Kanchelskis in '95 there were murders in the press and a telephone fan poll of United fans suggested he should go. The reaction was far more hysterical back than the recent outcry over Martial, and Fergie had won two league titles. It was only his relentless success which meant he avoided scrutiny for the later sales of Beckham, Stam etc.

 

[prath92]

It was more than just a few games Lukaku was out of form. 4 goals in 20 appearances despite playing the full 90 minutes in 17 of those games. Not only did Jose not rotate or sub him, he bizarrely praised Lukaku in many of these games saying his centre forward didn't need to score and that he was ok with his performances.

My point is Lukaku and now Sanchez haven't been given a little bit of leeway, its immunity at this stage, they can do no wrong in Jose's eyes. I accept him being tougher on the less unproven players but what Jose is doing is clear favouritism.

Last season it was Ibra and now Lukaku and Sanchez. The writing is on the wall for Martial despite the horseshit Jose comes out with to claim otherwise.

Many of those games he played really well without a goal or an assist. Like the spurs and arsenal games off the top of my head he wasn’t on the scoresheet but he was very good those games and perhaps unlucky not to get an assist or a goal (he did get one vs spurs in fairness). He was key in all 3 goals vs arsenal with link up play.

If you are a proven player, you get more slack. Ferguson famously used to give slack to Eric cantona but used to thrash the likes of Giggs sharpe and Beckham for small mistakes that they do.

You can call that favouritism or whatever you like but you earn that. You earn that with your past performances. Lukaku with his record at Everton wba and Belgium and Sanchez with his record at Barcelona and arsenal. Martial also had a lot on his plate, what with his personal life being a mess which clearly affected his play.

 

[JohnnyKills]

If you are a proven player, you get more slack. Ferguson famously used to give slack to Eric cantona but used to thrash the likes of Giggs sharpe and Beckham for small mistakes that they do.

Where've you got this from? Where you in the dressing room back then? If not you can't have read it in the press, because Fergie never criticised the players. He may have let Cantona get away with dress code infractions etc, but Cantona was our best player, and by all accounts he treated the rest of the squad the same.

Also, Lukaku is hardly a proven player at the elite level. 'Proven' implies that he regularly scores against the best teams and has played for a top team over a long period, which isn't the case. You can't compare him with Cantona!

 

[JPRouve]

Many of those games he played really well without a goal or an assist. Like the spurs and arsenal games off the top of my head he wasn’t on the scoresheet but he was very good those games and perhaps unlucky not to get an assist or a goal (he did get one vs spurs in fairness). He was key in all 3 goals vs arsenal with link up play.

If you are a proven player, you get more slack. Ferguson famously used to give slack to Eric cantona but used to thrash the likes of Giggs sharpe and Beckham for small mistakes that they do.

You can call that favouritism or whatever you like but you earn that. You earn that with your past performances. Lukaku with his record at Everton wba and Belgium and Sanchez with his record at Barcelona and arsenal. Martial also had a lot on his plate, what with his personal life being a mess which clearly affected his play.

Your example is not great, the reason Cantona wasn't thrashed wasn't because he was a proven player but because Cantona didn't respond well to it, Cantona was an extremely difficult character and thrashing generally ended up with him telling you do one or completely shutting down.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

People talking about swap deals like Dybala and Dembélé are deluding themselves.

Martial wants out, they don’t. Juve and Barca are more well placed to compete at this moment than us, what incentive if at all do they have to benefit us by giving a great player of theirs in return?

It’ll be straight cash in the region of £50-60m due to his contract situation and we better hope we spend that money wisely and win something big in the near future.

 

[Boycott]

He should be loaned. The club have to protect their long term interests and I'll hedge it on Martial outlasting Mourinho.

 

[prath92]

Where've you got this from? Where you in the dressing room back then? If not you can't have read it in the press, because Fergie never criticised the players. He may have let Cantona get away with dress code infractions etc, but Cantona was our best player, and by all accounts he treated the rest of the squad the same.

Also, Lukaku is hardly a proven player at the elite level. 'Proven' implies that he regularly scores against the best teams and has played for a top team over a long period, which isn't the case.

There are multiple incidents in his book and said by someone else. Notably where they drew the palace game where cantona had kungfu kicked the fan and Fergie came in the dressing room and blasted everyone except cantona. Even pallister said Eric rarely got the brunt. As did Giggs

Eric got away with murder – he never got the hairdryer. We’d go to a black-tie do, my tie wouldn’t be straight or Nicky Butt’s top button undone and the gaffer would rip into us. The next minute Eric would walk in with a white linen suit and red trainers and he would turn to us and say, Look at that – that’s style!

Lukaku has already scored 100 PL goals not playing for a top club till this season and is only older than Kane fowler rooney shearer and Owen in terms of youngest to reach the milestone. While he isn’t the best he is certainly a proven goalscorer. Proven implies scoring a lot of goals for the teams they played. In the PL he is definitely a proven scorer

 

[prath92]

Your example is not great, the reason Cantona wasn't thrashed wasn't because he was a proven player but because Cantona didn't respond well to it, Cantona was an extremely difficult character and thrashing generally ended up with him telling you do one or completely shutting down.

Fergie did that to many. Cantona was just an example. Scholes fletcher are other examples of players who supposedly never got the hairdryer.

 

[redpatron]

He should be loaned. The club have to protect their long term interests and I'll hedge it on Martial outlasting Mourinho.

You don’t loan a player on a 1 plus 1 option contract unless he’s worth nothing or there’s zero buyers. There’s going to suitors for martial. Worse case scenario he goes on loan, tears his acl. He spends his last year rehabbing here on and he walks away on a free.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

As @Dante rightly pointed out, the Chelsea side Mourinho built (that we toppled in Moscow) was a team that could manage itself. There was a grit, a personality throughout the team that meant they were capable of winning anything. It takes an incredible manager to assemble something like that, those qualities certainly weren't there when he arrived, but they survived him.

I don't actually believe Mourinho thinks Martial is the problem, I think he knows the problem is the balance of the team, the "only 11 players" issue Mourinho talks about. Martial's been an unfortunate victim of failings elsewhere. I'm not saying Martial couldn't do more, or that it's been entirely outside his ability to influence, but I don't think he's the problem, and I don't think Mourinho is a poor manager so I'm sure he sees the all positive things Martial contributes. The issue isn't necessarily what Mourinho expects from individual positions, it's what he feels he needs (first, before what he wants) from his team, and if the fullbacks are lacking, then he needs wingers or midfielders who cover those discrepancies.

Sidenote: You don't turn down the chance to swap Sanchez for Mkhitaryan. Sanchez is a quality player with a similar mentality to those in that great Chelsea team. Let's not have this discussion that Mourinho signed Sanchez to take Martial's place in the team, because that wouldn't have been the motivating factor. Much as I liked him, Mkhitaryan had lost it mentally, his form was atrocious, and even though Mourinho had persevered with him, he didn't seem to be able to generate either the moments of magic, or the intensity to contribute in other ways. He seemed to have lost all belief. It was a good move, any of us would have made it.​

If we are able to sort out our defence and midfield, I believe we will see Martial starting more, and contributing more. He's not a winger, and he's not a striker, he's somewhere in between. That's why he looked so good in a 343, he had a wingback and a center forward, and he could play between the lines.

We need center backs who can be trusted to be left with a striker, midfielders who will track runners on the break, and fullbacks who are decent defenders whilst being effective on the overlap.

If we could get a really good left back this summer, and a leader at center back... we'd have a different team, and all of a sudden, the strain on our other resources won't be such an issue.

 

[JPRouve]

Fergie did that to many. Cantona was just an example. Scholes fletcher are other examples of players who supposedly never got the hairdryer.

Not because they were proven players. You are just confirming my point, SAF adapted his approach to the players' personalities Scholes and Fletcher weren't players that would respond well to a hairdryer, so they never got one. SAF knew his players and knew how he needed to talk to them, what would make them tick and what wouldn't.