Salah did look shocking at Chelsea there's no doubt, but I just don't feel like Jose fills attacking players with any confidence.
Martial | Di Marzio thinks he will stay
- Thread starter Hellboy
- Start date
To be fair I'm with you on that some days. I like to be old school and think players today can be too soft. Give me another Roy Keane any day. Give them a bollocking. Let them man up and sort themselves out. But it doesn't seem to be like that as much anymore. Players like an arm around the shoulder. At the very highest level they want to be coached. To learn new things. The way Pep & Klopp have clearly coached their players and improved them.
Thats why I used the word 'Could' and not would. I'm assuming if the staff at Bayern, Juventus and Barca think Martial will benefit more in their system, then its hardly a stretch to claim he could thrive under a more fluid team/manager.
Yeah but can you seriously tell me we play attractive, free flowing attacking football? Do we play with a cohesive, well coached attacking style? The answer is no.
Because they spend less than us. Spurs far far less.
We've spent far more to be 1 point ahead of them, while playing less attractive football. And both pool and Spurs might end up winning a cup each this season & finish above us. Lets hope not but its possible.
Good post.
Martial has his issues - his workrate doesn't compare with the likes of Sanchez and Rashford. When the ball is on the other wing he's rarely busting a gut to get into a goalscoring position, and he doesn't put much effort into tracking back when he loses the ball.
But I don't remember too many of us complaining about Martial's workrate in his first season here. Granted there were bigger issues at the time, but he didn't cut the sullen figure he does now. When he scored a last-minute winner against Everton, then ran to the crowd, he certainly look moody or disinterested.
Pogba looks just as disinterested as Martial and even Rashford didn't look particularly up for it on Sunday, so the issues go far beyond one player. Against City it was easy to forget about the problems in the camp, because it was a big game and a huge audience for the players, but there was a clear lack of energy on Sunday and that went far beyond Martial.
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Yeah mate 20 odd years of SAF I feel completely distorted people's views on how things are done at a top level nowadays, that's why you can see such a backlash on here when you just don't simply blame the players across the whole board to vindicate manager's shortcomings. There's always a middle ground somewhere in between two contrasting positions, but when people are ripping into majority of players for being poor, that rings a bell and it is difficult to evaluate someone on an individual basis objectively.
What does spending have to do with anything? The quality of players at disposal is vastly similar. Pogba was never worth 90m even in his Juvenuts days. Unfair to punish Mourinho for not making him look like one.
As far as I see, Liverpool United and Spurs have similar quality talent (Liverpool with a weaker centre back/GK situation). Mourinho is ahead of both. He can't do that by being reactive all season.
Not a fan of his or Jose, truth be told.
If one has to go , who would it be?
Spending has a lot to do with it because transfer fees and wages more often than not determine where a team finishes in the table. We've spend far more than pool and especially Spurs to be 1 point ahead right now but potentially finishing behind them and playing far less attractive football.
Have you seen how much enjoyment Liverpool fans are getting from their team compared to us?
Pogba? Mourinho is the one who wanted him and paid the 90m for him. Meanwhile Klopp has a bag of players half as talented in midfield, who cost nowhere near, and has them playing with far more fight and style. Thats coaching.
He's not been reactive all season. We started off on fire, matching City stride for stride, putting 4 past teams. Then Anfield came and we parked the bus and to be quite frank, its all been a bit shit since then. City away was a fluke. They battered us first half and go in 4-0 up at half time any other day.
I don't disagree with you. I think it also is about players who have good on pitch chemistry, which.... is proably much of the same
I think that when you hire a manager, you hire him because of what he has done in the game, and should let him chose the players.
I wish that Martial did well, i rate him, but i'll trust the manager to know what he needs to get us back to the top.
We can't change manager every 2nd year, that won't do us any good, but i think Mourinho needs to get things right this summer.
Transfer fees have nothing to do with it in my opinion, because Mourinho doesn't control how much we buy a single player for.
I am looking more at the quality of players Mourinho has at his disposal at the start of the season versus Klopp and Poch. Poch actually had a better back 5, a better midfield and a better striker. I don't think it has much to do with playing style that Dembele, Alderwierald, Vertonghan and Kane are beasts of the game.
And yet after changing the spine of the team and bedding in his new signings in a short time, Jose brought us 2nd and they are 4th.
My point is if we were so reactive we wouldn't be 2nd. A reactive manager doesn't take a side finished 5th in the league, win 2 cups in his debut year and then jump 5 places in progress to 2nd the following year whilst improving a points tally by double digits.
A big part of our spending you seem intent on criticising is actually Paul Pogba who has offered little to our progress when compared to more consistent performers such as Matic, Young or Lingard. Just adding this point to live up to my tag line.
If transfer fees have nothing to do with it, why are the biggest spenders 1st? And the 2nd biggest spenders currently 2nd?
Almost every season of the PL the teams who finish top 4 are the ones with the biggest spend on transfers and wages. It's the same in other leagues as well.
PSG & City went from being average teams to top class teams because they spend way more than others. Chelsea as well when Roman came in.
So Spurs having a similar level of player to us by spending a fraction of the money is kind of a big deal. It reflects well on them and badly on us.
We've improved no doubt. But not by that much imo. Our style of play is still dour at times and the attacking players lack chemistry.
Players are simple animals - like the rest of us - If I like my boss and understand the vision - am clear in my targets and what I need to do , and can see progress , then I am motivated and I will do my best. I dont get bothered about what goes on in the exec level. Players take their motivation from their direct manager and coaching. JM is not what he was in 2004.
Hopefully JM - Martial (although I think he is a lazt bollox) has it in him - just needs to be squeezed out of him
United as a squad were far behind most the top sides in the league. We had Daeley Blind at cb, Schneiderlin and Schweinstiger in midfield, Rooney in the mix and no established striker whilst Depay was obviously not ready or good enough to be out wide for us. If Jose walked into a United side that was reflective of the stature of the club and on similar levels of quality to their rivals, and STILL spent the 240m or whatever it was, then yes I'd agree. We should be better than we are now.
But the fact remains he didn't. He needed to spend what he did just to make us relevant again. Our team needed serious surgery just to make us relevant again let alone win any titles. We are this season roughly where City were last season under Pep, which is about what I'd expect from Jose.
They spent on another level. Not comparable to the levels Mourinho has spent whatsoever. Obviously if you spend shit loads to a stupid level then it will affect your standings but Jose hasn't done anywhere near that level of spending.
agreed. Spurs scouting and acquisitions are way better compared to ours going back a few years. But that has nothing to do with Mourinho.
Our points tally says otherwise. I don't give two shits about playing style right now because top 4 is virtually won and there's nothing left to play for outside the FA Cup. More importantly though, Jose needs to fix our midfield and full back situation which can only really be done in the summer. Il judge him on playing style plus points tally after that. Right now he's considerably improved our results and that's all I care about for a 2nd season under him.
On the flipside if we had signed Perisic, Martial most likely wouldn't have played the minutes he did at the start of the season or scored the goals he did so less people would care. Even now there are a bunch of people claiming Martial has been one of our worst players this season.
Completely agree with the bolded sections and I think this is the reality of where we are, and you sum it up well.
We are indeed where City were last year and with investment in the areas you mention and god forbid, a little positivity I think we can improve again next season.
Nobody here had that opinion before the season started.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/whi...he-2017-2018-season-manchester-united.432075/
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His Real Madrid scored 121 league goals in a season. that's an insane amount, Ronaldo got around 60 goals in total that season I believe. Just how many would they have gotten with a manage who gave them confidence?
Nobody thought Vertonghan, Alderwierald, Dembele, Kane or Delli Ali would get into our XI?
Or Hazard, Wilian, Alonso, Azculapeta, Kante?
Or Mane, Coutinho, Firminho?
Not even going to bother with City.
Honestly Liverpool is the only side that I can safely say had less players we'd have taken into our squad at the start of the season.
He tracks back pretty well considering he isn't a left back. I have no idea how he was one of the league's most productive players till the half way point if he made no runs and had no movement. He can work on that for sure but that's how it is with all young talents. A well run team shouldn't need it's young stars to be perfect/without flaws to be a fluid attacking machine. That should normally come from the base/foundations.
I don't know why you bring up Chelsea when the quote I responded to is about Liverpool and Spurs.
Cherrypicking their top players who would make our starting XI doesn't paint the whole picture about the overall quality of players at disposal.
Liverpool's goalkeeper, defense and midfield was seen as a tier below Utd.
Alderweireld barely played this season, I don't see anyone being thrilled about Dembele.
Not sure about the squad strength in comparision, it might be close. That would raise the question how they managed to assemble that team paying so little compared to Utd.
Agree, we needed a massive rebuild. But Klopp needed a big rebuild too. He's brought in Karius, Van Dijk, Robertson, Trent from the academy, Ox, Mane & Salah. To play in a brilliant attacking style, while also seemingly more solid at the back. It looks right, everyone knows what their style is.
So to go back to the original point about Martial, this is why I'm worried about selling him. Can we not get more out of the attacking players we have now? If all the best sides are playing a similar way, except for us, is that not a worry?
Fair play to you. You're a more patient fan than myself. If he fixes those issues and has us playing some brilliant attacking football I'll hold my hands up and apologise. I'd love to be wrong.
Really? Let's take a look at some. None of the below says United had a massively higher quality side to their rivals. I read most as 2nd strongest on paper with little between the likes of Chelsea and Spurs.
I've addressed Liverpool having a weak back 5. Not sure how Alderwierald missing this season is relevant given we were looking at the start of the season opinions?
I'm also not trying to cherry pick the others. The examples show the quality of the players at Conte, Poch and Peps disposal was not materially different to Jose. Even if we are ranked as 2nd strongest on paper, Spurs and Chelsea certainly weren't far off. So yeah, Mourinho had about the similar levels of quality to work with this season and currently stands only behind a side that was unanimously seen to be stronger.
Ps sorry am not discussing martial directly. But the idea that Joses style and reactive approach is stunting him is a myth imo.
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Work rate is not just about tracking back. I was talking about attacking work rate. His off the ball runs and work rate is not there and when he plays he is also part of the problem when we dont look cohesive.
Crikey, what feckin confidence does a Manchester United player need besides coming in at home against a team that's not won in 31 games?
On the flip side you have a team that's not won in 31 games coming to Old Trafford...how shot must their confidence be? Not enough for them to bend over. Feckin Rodriguez tried to dribble past our entire defense and almost succeeded. Yet our players are what, butt hurt because the manager benched them?
The excuses for our players is getting ridiculous. You may hate Mourinho and that's fine, but you don't have to go over the top with the players in the other direction. They can both be at fault here!
On the flip side you have a team that's not won in 31 games coming to Old Trafford...how shot must their confidence be? Not enough for them to bend over. Feckin Rodriguez tried to dribble past our entire defense and almost succeeded. Yet our players are what, butt hurt because the manager benched them?
The excuses for our players is getting ridiculous. You may hate Mourinho and that's fine, but you don't have to go over the top with the players in the other direction. They can both be at fault here!
One fault requires us to change half the team costing probably half a billion while the other one requires probably 50 million or so for sacking and hiring another manager. Which one is more doable?Crikey, what feckin confidence does a Manchester United player need besides coming in at home against a team that's not won in 31 games?
On the flip side you have a team that's not won in 31 games coming to Old Trafford...how shot must their confidence be? Not enough for them to bend over. Feckin Rodriguez tried to dribble past our entire defense and almost succeeded. Yet our players are what, butt hurt because the manager benched them?
The excuses for our players is getting ridiculous. You may hate Mourinho and that's fine, but you don't have to go over the top with the players in the other direction. They can both be at fault here!
Half a billion is hyperbole. But let's settle on what other clubs of comparable ambition will spend. I think anything less than 200 million is to be expected whether we sack the manager or not. That's because this squad is not up to it . And a new manager will find the same.
We need a compromise - don't sack the manager and sell/replace some of the players. Then let's reevaluate
Are you saying any new Manager won't make any changes and won't want his own players purchasing by the club? The team is unbalanced, there are some fairly big issues preventing us being a really good team once again. We've a few nailed on starters who will need easing out of the team probably by next season. Club will be spending big regardless.
I see many a sack Jose post, but the question would be then what? Only a complete dreamer would think that any new manager will come in and turn this side into a fluid attacking unit and the other major issue would be a lack of genuine winning coaches out there who'd be available.
I really hope Martial signs a new contract as it's just ridiculous on here, so many insights that are based on nothing, other than pure speculation and a supposed understanding of how someone nobody knows on here feels.
You believe the squad that LvG assembled was of Champions League winning quality?
If we sold Martial, it'd cost at most £20m net.
If we sacked Mourinho, we'd have to start the rebuild again from square one. That's exactly the mistake we made when hiring LvG. His philosophy was a complete u-turn from Fergie and Moyes. To compund it, we performed another complete u-turn in hiring Mourinho.
But we've made our bed with Mourinho now. If we don't see it through, the club will struggle to recover for the next 5+ years.
We have to complete this project as it is now. Luckily, the best man to do it is already here. Changing philosophical direction again would be the worst possible move for the club, and nobody else is as masterful with this philosophy as Mourinho.
If the story in the OP is true, the only person you can be angry with is Martial. He was first choice earlier in the season but didn't show enough to dissuade Mourinho from buying Sanchez. Martial should have taken his chance when he had it. Instead, he's seemingly rejected our offer and turned his back on United. I'd have no respect for him as a turncoat.
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All season I've been hearing about how City are ahead of us because they outspent us, now when asked about why we're so close to Liverpool and Tottenham despite outspending them I'm reading that transfer fees have nothing to do with it
Maybe. But on the flip side i really dont think mou is a long term guy here anyways. It hasn't been his way to stay anywhere a long time. Not too confident we will change him, or the players would really respond to him year after year anyways. If that is the case we could be looking at a new manager after next season regardless. If that is the case then it is almost a balancing act to accomplish something next season without sacrificing our younger players. If we sell martial and pogba for two older players that are more mou's "style", where does that leave us the year after? Think we have to balance the desire to see a title next year without sabotaging our whole future in order to get a grind it out type season for short term success. Guess it really depends on if people have faith in mou to stay here for an extended period of time or not
And as for martial, it really seems like he just isn't mou's fancy. Dude was just player of month and had 3 goals in 3 games before sanchez came in. Martial worked hard to get back into the fold and did all this "competing" people want him to do. His reward, a new january signing in the position him and rashford were playing well in resulting in both getting shafted opportunity wise. Oh and that new signing, yeah he gets thrown right in the squad regardless of how poor he is playing and how little he is doing in that position. So for me i don't blame Martial for wanting to leave. If the manager doesn't want to play you pretty much impossible to change his mind.
pretty accurate to be fair.
He doesn't need to be here long term. He's a squad builder. The Chelsea team he left in 2007 was good enough to manage itself all the way to a penalty shoot-out in the CL final against the best United team in years. Mourinho created that side and Avram Grant just hitched on for the ride.
Jose knows how to assemble a team that has the character to motivate each other. Granted, age can sometimes be a secondary thought, but at United Mourinho hasn't shown himself to discard young players willy nilly. The personalities we've sold have mostly been the weak/uncommitted ones. The youth we've persevered with have been the strong-willed and dedicated ones. It's up to Martial to prove he's in the latter category.
Jose knows winners. Fergie was similar. Both managers scouted a player's personality as much as his talent. If this rejection is true, it doesn't look as though LvG did quite as much due diligence.
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I think, even if Jose leaves within the next couple of years, he will have left a good squad behind anyway.
Good points.
Ironically, the players that Mourinho brought are a better fit for LVG than they are for Mourinho.
Eh? You sure you're replying to me? I agree about his workrate, I see him as a player who's missing a lot of basic stuff, much like Sterling was during his first season at City.
But going forward, and from having a general idea of what type of character he is, I don't think he can adapt to an old-school, no-nonsense, virile coach like Mourinho. He is very much a modern footballer, a bit of a bitch. More showmanship than substance. The only way you'd maximize his potential is to cajole him. I am not a big fan of that approach, but I am lucid enough to understand that is how it works nowadays.
When you see how highly limited players like McTominay, Fellaini, Young and Rashford are rated by Mourinho then that is definitely a worry.
I'm not really sure that I like the idea of a squad built to his measurements really. Especially not when we might sell top talents like Martial to get there.
It's all good if you cannot be arsed about the possibility of loosing Martial but consider the following points:
Ask any Chelsea fan today and they'll tell you that they could have done with a KDB in their team right now but we were sold the fable that the boy's character was questionable. That viewpoint for many was questionable because the lad was not given a fair chance for compete for a shirt and I remember that game vs Hull City iirc when I thought to myself, 'this boy is a star in the making'. It was on the back of the gaffer's response after that game that he reportedly decided that he'd be better off elsewhere perhaps. It begs the question, was Jose's mind made up from the onset?
KDB in the city team is a walking machine that never stops going. Seems to be a little fatigued now though.
You don't seem to realize that a similar scenario is playing out where we glorify short-termism over and above what the future holds. Martial has got time on his side and is on an upward trajectory whilst Sanchez is approaching the end of his 'shelf life' sadly. Now there is every possibility that Sanchez wouldn't hit the heights that we have imagined that he would (God forbid, however it's always safer to plan for the worst case scenario).
Its not like both of them cannot start in the same side or they cannot both fight for a place at the very least.
Some players get a nod irrespective of their form whilst some others will be left out at the slightest opportunity. Tell me, where's the competition? If both players were fighting for a place, that would be more fair and imo, would bring out the best in both players but when one player knows or feels that he's just there pending when the manager gets the opportunity to let him go, it'd be hard to give his unreserved commitment. From the word go, Jose's body language has not really helped to shake off the feeling that maybe he's second choice. I'm talking particularly about him being stripped off his shirt for one who it was clear wouldn't be in the team for much longer.
Now the way bright attackers are being priced in the market is another factor that makes this whole saga all the more sad.
Let's say no to short-termism.
Not every manager out there needs a whole new team. There are managers out there who can improve the set of players we have. We are going to buy 3-4 players this window. A new manager can select the ones he needs. Poch and Klopp didn't bring a whole team in and improved players already present at their respective clubs. Chelsea after Mourinho's first stint kept on changing managers and are the most successful english team.
Under Mourinho the best we can hope for is soul sucking football maybe resulting in a title. I just can't stand the football. It is so bad that I have actually just stopped watching it after watching United continuously since 2003. More than winning I want a more attacking style. Under Mourinho we are never going to get that.
Let me clarify, you continued to watch during the Moyes season and the LVG seasons yet decided to stop watching with Jose in charge?