Martial | Di Marzio thinks he will stay

He has a number of faults, but he's shown more potential than Depay. Also, he has played under 2 managers who both haven't understood how to use him properly, and still been productive. Under Jose, he was just beginning to hit his stride, when he was unfairly moved to the right and benched for Sanchez.

Sadly, I think we came too soon for him. He should have joined a club like Spurs or stayed at Monaco to develop his skills and then joined a top club if he felt he deserved to be a starter at 22. I daresay even with Sanchez, he would get significant game-time, but he wants to be a nailed on starter.

Martial is way better than Depay. But I can't agree with the bold.

Martial has played under 3 managers, Jardim, LVG and Mourinho. All 3 are tactically astute managers, and two of them are very good with youth. To say that these managers haven't understood how to use him properly is massively arrogant/ignorant in my opinion.

All 3 managers have a history of getting the best out of players. Jardim showed with Monaco that he knows how to create the right environment for players. LVG and Mourinho have a long history of using unfancied squads and getting a tune out of them.

I think that the most sensible answer is that Martial is just a very unique player. Playing him in the team brings about a lot of tactical problems that need to be solved. He isn't the right physical profile for a lone striker, so the team requires a big man next to him. He isn't a proficient playmaker, so the team requires a playmaker in the team. He isn't a proficient wide player, so the team requires a fullback to provide width for two players worth.

He's too talented not to play, but he's also a very difficult player to fit into the team.
 
Martial is way better than Depay. But I can't agree with the bold.

Martial has played under 3 managers, Jardim, LVG and Mourinho. All 3 are tactically astute managers, and two of them are very good with youth. To say that these managers haven't understood how to use him properly is massively arrogant/ignorant in my opinion.

All 3 managers have a history of getting the best out of players. Jardim showed with Monaco that he knows how to create the right environment for players. LVG and Mourinho have a long history of using unfancied squads and getting a tune out of them.

I think that the most sensible answer is that Martial is just a very unique player. Playing him in the team brings about a lot of tactical problems that need to be solved. He isn't the right physical profile for a lone striker, so the team requires a big man next to him. He isn't a proficient playmaker, so the team requires a playmaker in the team. He isn't a proficient wide player, so the team requires a fullback to provide width for two players worth.

He's too talented not to play, but he's also a very difficult player to fit into the team.

This is part of the problem. He has undeniable natural talent in terms of dribbling and ball control but he is an awkward player positionally. He has to fit inbetween everything and it affects the team as a whole.

If he is Ronaldo or Neymar it is easier to make concessions for him and build the team around him. He probably will never reach those levels though.
 
Obviously someone who was banned... no worries.

It's amazing to me that the people who question Martial are in such a minority that we get confused for each other!
They're not so much a minority as there are a few very vocal people who actively seemingly despise Martial - making it clear they do so at nearly every opportunity: NikSab, Number1, Jaybomb are the three worst for this. The latter two are banned and NikSab had about 10 posts in 3 minutes in one match thread going on about how shit Martial is.
 
Obviously someone who was banned... no worries.

It's amazing to me that the people who question Martial are in such a minority that we get confused for each other!

It's not rare to question Martial. I have some doubts if he will ever be a truly world-class player, a lot of people do. To put him on the same level as someone like Depay is pretty rare and ridiculous, though.
 
80M would get you pogba, Alexis sanchez joins us for mkhitaryan (which let's asume he's 30m)

Nobody would pay 80M for a sulking 21 years old who hasn't even made it yet. Potentials are just potentials until they're materialized.

Barcelona paid almost 150million euros for Ousmane Dembele after he had scored 6 league goals for Dortmund. Please don't underestimate how much stupid money these mega rich clubs are willing to part with for potential
 
Ah I see. That would definitely be difficult yep, though maybe we could stretch it if we thought he could genuinely end up a world class player in the future (which he has the talent to be).

Will be interesting to see what happens with him this summer. Like you said, wouldn't be surprised if this was just tactics from his team and he signs the new contract soon enough.

Times have reported that Martial wants to stay but looking for more first team chances. So looks like both club and player are leaking their side of the stories.
 
Barcelona paid almost 150million euros for Ousmane Dembele after he had scored 6 league goals for Dortmund. Please don't underestimate how much stupid money these mega rich clubs are willing to part with for potential
Dembele had a lot longer on his contract (he had only been at Dortmund for a year). Coutinho, van Dijk had five years on their contracts too hence why they went for so much. Martial has 1 year (2 if/when the option is activated) so won't go for anywhere near as much.
 
I don’t think you can count any of them as being undisputed star player/starter, at least not yet, most likely not ever. It’s fine, modern football has become increasingly more cutthroat and we can’t afford to give youngsters time like we used to, but let’s not pretend that since Rooney and Ronaldo, we’ve been successful in developing any outfield player into stars, and if you count De Gea as established which imho we should, since he was starter for Atletico for a while and already won the Europa League when he came to us, then no young player at all.

I’m not blaming Jose for his preference of working with established players (by his own admission, 27 and above), but saying Martial has no balls for wanting out from a coach who throughout his career has had no success to speak of on moulding young attacking talents and isn’t trusting him to play is nonsensical.

They're not stars yet, but the point was that we've given young players opportunities. It's even more of a point when they're less talented, because it proves you need some guts to get picked. There should be no reason why he can't be better than the other options on the right. It's not like there's much competition there. But he mustn't be doing enough to get picked there regularly and we've seen he hasn't done enough when he has been. I'd like him to get more chances obviously, but also be taking them with two hands.
People can complain about Sanchez til the cows come home, but at the end of the day we've got a great payer, something we were drastically short of, who can deliver best in their favoured position and who puts a shift in even when we aren't playing well. I wouldn't mind trying Sanchez on the right more once he's settled in, but he needs to get that confidence with us first, which he is doing judging by the City game.
 
Dembele had a lot longer on his contract (he had only been at Dortmund for a year). Coutinho, van Dijk had five years on their contracts too hence why they went for so much. Martial has 1 year (2 if/when the option is activated) so won't go for anywhere near as much.

I actually don't think there's a huge difference between 2-5 years for transfer value. A club will wait 1 year for a player but no club will wait more than that - things change way too quickly in football. Same for the player.

He just won't go for as much because we sell our players after destroying them. Anhilating their character, highlighting anything and everything bad about them in big and bold then sell them as damaged goods.
 
Barcelona paid almost 150million euros for Ousmane Dembele after he had scored 6 league goals for Dortmund. Please don't underestimate how much stupid money these mega rich clubs are willing to part with for potential

Dembele was signed because of his potential and demanded a high fee for what he could become.

The thing with Martial is that he's spent 3 years at a top club already and look where he is. Dropped from the France team too, often not even making the squad. This stuff brings the price down, because it lessens the likelihood of him ever becoming a top class player.

The 3 years have exposed issues that many didn't know existed until he was tested at the top level. We took on that risk by signing him as a relatively unproven player, hence the transfer agreement containing many clauses. We've likely paid nowhere near the max fee because he hasn't achieved certain targets.
 
If we lose Martial for Griezmann, will the fans take that?
We have to pay double or even triple for that to happen tho.

Otherwise in terms of fit Griezmann predominantly plays on the right so he'll be a better fit for the team.
 
He is 22 years old. Why do people all of a sudden expect 20-23 year olds to play with the effectiveness of players entering their prime?

As by the time they're 27 people are writing them off and wanting them replaced as they're almost 30, when they need to retire.
 
We have to pay double or even triple for that to happen tho.

Otherwise in terms of fit Griezmann predominantly plays on the right so he'll be a better fit for the team.

Griezmann predominantly plays in the middle and before that mainly played on the left. Also he isn't really good on the right.
 
If we lose Martial for Griezmann, will the fans take that?

France proves that both Griezmann and Pogba can't play in the same team with the required level of balance. I lost interest in Griezmann at all tbh. More problems will occur and we'll be forced to set one of Sanchez, Pogba or Griezmann on the bench. If you want a right winger, go get someone, instead of buying a SS and pushing him there.
 
Griezmann predominantly plays in the middle and before that mainly played on the left. Also he isn't really good on the right.
He's a second striker not a winger of course but has played both sides and looks much more fluent than Martial there.

We'd definitely need 2 good attacking full backs to stretch up the wings. Neither Martial or Griezmann will do that on constant basis.
 
Exactly and he should put himself first in such a scenario. Whether anyone dislikes Martial or not - one thing is for sure, he has the tools to be a great player if everything falls in place for him and the first thing he needs is guaranteed game time. He's not going to get that getting minutes here and there, with a manager who doesn't really have his back (proven by the fact that even when he was in great form during January - bought a replacement in his position and also had another big signing in his other possible position at 9). Therefore he is well within his rights to put himself first and I don't get how that makes him a pussy.

Was KDB a pussy for leaving Chelsea? Martial wants to be a great player and as long as he doesn't take an easy option like an Arsenal.. then he should get some respect for wanting to develop his career. Guys like Robben, Ronaldo at 22 would not have wanted to languish on the bench during those key years of development. Martial is producing similar numbers to a Sane .. why should he accept being a bench player and compromise his development whilst someone like Sane is first team left winger at a title winning club?
I agree with the Sánchez purchase even if it costs the club United. Sánchez is too good of a player to not get at the cost of a Mkhitaryan so the transfer made sense. It's unfortunate for Martial, with a different manager it wouldn't matter because he'd play striker instead of on the left or Sánchez perhaps played behind the striker which is something I'd like to see at least.

If he wants to go I'd understand but he'd also have to understand that the club won't let him go unless they'd get a suitable offer so I hope he doesn't do something like Payet or Mahrez.
 
Hasn't this been cleared up yet? I'm hoping it's 100% bullshite...
 
Hasn't this been cleared up yet? I'm hoping it's 100% bullshite...

Contract negotiations, so enjoy the hype and over reactions on the Caf, as the media know there are fans who just live for this kind of thing. Personally find it all tedious and looking forward to the next game...
 
It makes a lot of sense to sell Martial with a buy back clause and go and buy a world class right attacker, because he was a starter here when he was 19 he won't settle for back up role for long.
 
Why do people still think we can play Griezmann on the right?

I genuinely think the team looks better with Sanchez left than right. I don't like to shoe horn Martial in for the sale of conditioning potential that is still a few years away. He isn't consistent enough for me.
Has Sanchez even played on the right with Martial on the left?
 
This is obviously not good news but if it makes it possible to get Bale, then I'd definitely not mind.
Bale will be 30 at the end of next season and is always injured (in a league far less phyically intense than the Prem). He's not a good bet long-term.
 
It makes a lot of sense to sell Martial with a buy back clause and go and buy a world class right attacker, because he was a starter here when he was 19 he won't settle for back up role for long.
Yeah the buy-back is key. Juventus were happy to allow a buy-back clause for Morata, no reason why they wouldn't do it for Martial.
 
Yeah the buy-back is key. Juventus were happy to allow a buy-back clause for Morata, no reason why they wouldn't do it for Martial.

There is a very obvious reason, it's the fee. They got him for 20m€ and that's without even mentioning the fact that Morata is a Real Madrid homegrown player and was happy to have the option to go back.
 
Yeah the buy-back is key. Juventus were happy to allow a buy-back clause for Morata, no reason why they wouldn't do it for Martial.
Why does a buy back even matter. If he proves himself then you can just buy him back for a gazillion pounds, the way you did with Pogba. If you sell him at 22 and he signs a 5 year contract then by the time he's 26 you'll be ideally placed to buy him if he turns out as good as everyone thinks he will. Don't think Utd's money is going to run out in 4-5 years.
 
Why do people still think we can play Griezmann on the right?


Has Sanchez even played on the right with Martial on the left?

Yes I recall him operating from the right at the very beginning but it just wasn't suiting him.
 
There is a very obvious reason, it's the fee. They got him for 20m€ and that's without even mentioning the fact that Morata is a Real Madrid homegrown player and was happy to have the option to go back.
Juventus also had Tevez and Mandzukic as striking options at the time iirc. They however were never afraid of assuring young players about game time even if the position seems stacked.

Morata however as you said most likely saw Juventus as a stepping stone into Madrid first team though. Martial has no connection to Utd prior to joining us and he'll have little to no reason to include that clause into his contract with the new club, if he believes himself to make that step into a world class player.
 
Yes I recall him operating from the right at the very beginning but it just wasn't suiting him.
If my memory serves me right, he only played there in the second half against Spurs. Nobody played well that day, so it would be wrong to use that as definite proof that he can't play there, especially considering he was fairly shite in any position initially. Now that he's seemingly found form, I'd like to see him tried there from the start at least once.
 
If my memory serves me right, he only played there in the second half against Spurs. Nobody played well that day, so it would be wrong to use that as definite proof that he can't play there, especially considering he was fairly shite in any position initially. Now that he's seemingly found form, I'd like to see him tried there from the start at least once.

Why would you want to shift him right when he's found form from the left?
 
You wanna bet on it? If he's sold tomorrow whatever the price is will be closer to 40 than to 80
if it's a non epl definitely closer to 40 than 80. I rather take the risk and take a player back from an epl squad than take the cash.
 
There is a very obvious reason, it's the fee. They got him for 20m€ and that's without even mentioning the fact that Morata is a Real Madrid homegrown player and was happy to have the option to go back.

You have to give something. Wouldn't mind lower fee, but a buy-back option (don't think the club should look at it purely financially in this case either).

Why does a buy back even matter. If he proves himself then you can just buy him back for a gazillion pounds, the way you did with Pogba. If you sell him at 22 and he signs a 5 year contract then by the time he's 26 you'll be ideally placed to buy him if he turns out as good as everyone thinks he will. Don't think Utd's money is going to run out in 4-5 years.

Eh? Because the new club could say we won't sell him? Because he can choose some other top club even if we pay gazillion pounds?
 
Why does a buy back even matter. If he proves himself then you can just buy him back for a gazillion pounds, the way you did with Pogba. If you sell him at 22 and he signs a 5 year contract then by the time he's 26 you'll be ideally placed to buy him if he turns out as good as everyone thinks he will. Don't think Utd's money is going to run out in 4-5 years.
Because that's a terrible way to do business?!
 
Why would you want to shift him right when he's found form from the left?
Trying him on the right for a match, or at least the first half of a match, wouldn't hurt. It would just be to see if he can still perform on either flank (I'm confident he can, as quite a few of his good moments have come from him drifting onto the right). If so, we'll be able to provide both Martial and Rashford with more opportunities. If not, we'll just continue with Sanchez on the left.
 
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So the conclusion is we know nothing....
Exactly. We know nothing. Yet, people jump to conclusions that Jose has a beef with him, that he's been unfairly axed etc. Sure look at this thread - 28 pages and still going strong about a rumour that he wants to go.
 
Trying him on the right for a match, or at least the first half of a match, wouldn't hurt. It would just be to see if he can still perform on either flank (I'm confident he can, as quite a few of his good moments have come from him drifting onto the right). If so, we'll be able to provide both Martial and Rashford with more opportunities. If not, we'll just continue with Sanchez on the left.

Maybe yeah. But Martial seems to have made up his mind on leaving.

I don't see us going into next season playing our most talented player outside of his preferred position. I don't think it best serves him nor the team. Martial has a better chance of cementing that right wing spot and making it his own, or fighting against Sanchez for that left wing role in training and hoping he forces his way in.
 
Times have reported that Martial wants to stay but looking for more first team chances. So looks like both club and player are leaking their side of the stories.

If this is the case, you can see it from Martial's perspective but at the same time you can see why he is not getting more games.

Sometimes managers might think that the best way to get the most out of the group is not the most obvious way.

At the weekend, in the second half against City, Lingard switching positions with Lukaku during different phases of play was really important. In a vaccum, Lingard is obviously nowhere near as good as Martial. However, with the intelligence he has and the position he takes up around other players, you can see why Mourinho started him at the Emptyhad. His running in the second half really helped bamboozle City, especially when we worked it wide.

Should Lingard be dropped because Martial wants more games? Some would say obviously because he's better. Still, from Jose's perspective, when it comes to getting the best of other players, does Lingard's movement mean more for helping to raise the overall level of the team? Martial's off the ball running is not very good. With the ball at his feet he's like a runaway train. When it comes to runs ahead of the ball though? Its arguable that Martial falls down on that. Especially relative to Lingard.

Sometimes playing the best players does not amount to creating the best team. This whole debate is very Gerrard and Lampard. At the time, despite the fact the two were great at what they did, it was obvious one of them should've been dropped to give the England midfield better balance. Just because Alexis and Martial are significantly better than our other attackers it doesn't mean they should both play. Even if Alexis did play wide right it's arguable that him and Martial playing together would condense the centre of the pitch too much, certainly neither runs the channels as well as Lingard.

If the crux of the issue is that Martial thinks, probably rightly, that he's better than most of our attacker and should therefore get more games then that's an issue. I wouldn't argue that he's not better than most of them. I'd argue that there is a logic in Jose thinking his team would be more balanced with only one of Alexis and Martial starting.
 
It makes a lot of sense to sell Martial with a buy back clause and go and buy a world class right attacker, because he was a starter here when he was 19 he won't settle for back up role for long.

That would make a lot of sense, but who should we buy? Mahrez? Malcom? Suggestions?
 
I am trying to convince myself that this is just tactic for better contract but in reality he just can't have future here . Future which he wants. Where he plays every week.
If we presume that alexis is now our first left winger, and that jose play his star players in most of games, what is left for martial?
1) left winger. Alexis is first option by far and will start most of games there. Jose tried him on no10 and right winger but after last few games i don't think so that ge will be moved from there. Rashford is there also( maybe now in front of martial). So he will play in league cup and sometimes last 10 minutes in PL. Those are minutes for some academy 18y old kid not him.
2) Striker. Lukaku plays. Every game, every minute. Again, few minor games maybe left for martial.
3) rw. He is lost there. And i think even jose does not see him there. Maybe he could try to fight for that position but there is mata, lingard, rashford so i doubt that martial would "risk" with staying and trying to fight for that position. And even then , his playing time would be reduced with sharing minutes with mata and lingard. Also, i don't see jose playing regularly with 3 strikers in team( alexis, lukaku, martial).
I will not go in "what IF" situations. What if jose decides to play with 2 strikers, injuries or something like that. I doubt that martial count on that also.

On the other hand, he can go in other (big) club and be starter in his favourite position. No brainer for him. Unfortunately. This is situation where for one position you don't have any decent player( right winger or left back) and for another position you have 3 excellent players. Just our fecking bad luck. Or bad planning....

Edit: only way how he can stay is that jose say to him that alexis will play on the right next season and he will be on the left. Does anybody see that that can happen? I don't
 
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Maybe yeah. But Martial seems to have made up his mind on leaving.

I don't see us going into next season playing our most talented player outside of his preferred position. I don't think it best serves him nor the team. Martial has a better chance of cementing that right wing spot and making it his own, or fighting against Sanchez for that left wing role in training and hoping he forces his way in.
He could change his mind in the coming weeks, depending on how they go.

We'll have to properly see Sanchez on the right before we can say that him playing on the left is better for the team.