Those figures don't look particularly accurate to me. Martial missed the most games last season through injury for example yet features nowhere on your list.
Martial agent looking for a new club for him
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Older doesn't mean more reliable especially with Martial.
And people were questioning if Martial's good form in 2020 was due to not having a crowd to give him pressure.
Also, none of your counterpoint would assume that he would be ok being rotated heavily with 2 other strikers for one position. That is my biggest concern. We could have a player sulking up, not performing when called up and can't move him on with big wage due to that later on. It's almost clear that he doesn't really have a future as a starter at united. We would definitely try to find a better/ different striker in the future even with Greenwood.
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Seriously, is there any footballer who attracts so much baseless suspicion from his own fanbase as Martial? What has he ever actually done to make you think he'll down tools? Methinks you've been overdosing on Graeme Souness's shitty takes.
You have said that I'm assuming he'll play well and that's too big an assumption to make. That assumption is based on me watching almost all of his games for United over the last year. Yet your post is based on the absolutely baseless assumption that he'll derail our season out of spite if he's dropped.
It's like you think Martial is a special case for whom experience doesn't count for anything. He's been our player of the season twice, he came to our club aged 19 and has been a starter/first substitute ever since, and you want to sell him for peanuts because you suspect his character for some reason. Why?
I was hoping they would move him on before he signed his last contract with us. Never seemed up to it for such a big club. He has his moments but they re waaaaay too far inconsistent to be counted on for anything other than a squad member at MU.
I don't see the facts, you can repeat your opinion as much as you want, but that will not make up for the facts. I'm really not interested but if you look at Greenwoods record as a main striker you will obviously find little experience but a lot of proficiency that you simply deny based on your lack of knowledge. If you loot up the stats even if Cavani played just 2 games in one of last season's weeks then your argument will fail. Rashford being bad at the position is just the way you look at it. So my suggestion is treat your own opinion as it is, as well as others, stop trying to make yourself look like the guardian of truth while calling lies to someone else's opinion only because it doesn't match yours (or the one you bought or inherited from others).
I've called out lies in this thread but not to do with any of the above, everything else is an opinion. Saying things like "in my opinion" is so redundant because if I say it or write it, it's my opinion, unless stated otherwise. I suggest you work on your comprehension skills.
Rashford spends his entire time offside when he plays up top and offers nothing in terms of hold up or link up play.
Greenwood has had a couple of good performances up top but generally has struggled with the physicality of CBs.
If there is an example of Cavani playing twice in a week, it's an exception, nothing more. It was pretty obvious last season that Ole was only willing to play him once a week generally speaking so you saying it happened once means nothing.
All I'm saying in here is that selling Martial without replacing him is stupid, would you agree?
@eltigreFalcao
Don't bother mate. The same guy that thinks "Rashford is a terrible striker", "Greenwood has shown nothing to suggest he's a good CF" and "Cavani can only play one game a week" will call you a liar and count characters in every response.
In the seasons where the CFs were backups, the stats are very comparable across. We're not pulling MM out of position when we have 3 class wingers. Martial is a better target man, but you're also giving up better movement from Greenwood or Rashford.
1 goal against Leipzig (5-0), 2 against Southampton (9-0), that leaves 4 quality goals. General play was poor too. His average caf rating was a 5.1.
Elanga as 4th choice is fine. Both Rashford and Cavani are quite experienced and even Greenwood will have had 2 senior seasons under his belt.
50m can be invested and he's on ridiculous wages for a squad player (13m/y), we might never get rid if he has another poor season and I think Greenwood and Elanga are deserving of minutes.
AWB plays much better when we're not running him into the ground because we don't have a backup (nvm the end of our title challenge if he gets injured). We could use a DM, both our goalies are average and we're gonna be paying an insane Raiola fee for Haaland in addition to 75m next year.
Don't bother mate. The same guy that thinks "Rashford is a terrible striker", "Greenwood has shown nothing to suggest he's a good CF" and "Cavani can only play one game a week" will call you a liar and count characters in every response.
He was poor when we got Zlatan (16/17), Lukaku (17/18), Cavani (20/21) in. Ighalo (19/20) was on loan from the Chinese retirement league. I don't even think Cavani was intended to be first choice, but Martial somehow can't perform when a class CF is watching him.
In the seasons where the CFs were backups, the stats are very comparable across. We're not pulling MM out of position when we have 3 class wingers. Martial is a better target man, but you're also giving up better movement from Greenwood or Rashford.
1 goal against Leipzig (5-0), 2 against Southampton (9-0), that leaves 4 quality goals. General play was poor too. His average caf rating was a 5.1.
Elanga as 4th choice is fine. Both Rashford and Cavani are quite experienced and even Greenwood will have had 2 senior seasons under his belt.
50m can be invested and he's on ridiculous wages for a squad player (13m/y), we might never get rid if he has another poor season and I think Greenwood and Elanga are deserving of minutes.
AWB plays much better when we're not running him into the ground because we don't have a backup (nvm the end of our title challenge if he gets injured). We could use a DM, both our goalies are average and we're gonna be paying an insane Raiola fee for Haaland in addition to 75m next year.
42 pages for a story I'm pretty sure is based on no substance at all. We aren't getting rid of a striker.
He was poor but not because he was a back up in 16/17. He actually aa a starter from the left and had about 4 poor games in a row and then that's when he was used from the bench. In 17/18 he had its when he was having great performances from the bench and he along with Rashford were doing a great job from the left until Sanchez displaced them. 18/19 he started the season behind Sanchez on the left and actually won his place from him.
Woah, woah, woah, don't let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt.
Don't know why you bother explaining anything on here. Their minds are already made up. Before you know it they will soon say he was never good in 19/20.
The stats I used and the players I mentioned were with regards to the CF position.
He's behind Rashford, Sancho and Greenwood for a position on the wing. If he was a 4th choice winger the decision to sell him for 50m and get rid of of his 13m/y salary is an easy one.
We clearly disagree massively on what we've seen of Rashford and Greenwood as a st then. And it would be really dumb of us to sell Martial now to raise funds for Haaland next year, especially as Haaland is likely dependent on how well we do this year. And we aren't gonna do well if we're reliant on 1 natural striker who is 35, and 2 stopgaps in possibly the most important position on the pitch.
I know Martial was not productive last season, but he's judged very differently to Greenwood. When Greenwood played up front for us last season I saw a player who contributed less than Martial to our overall play and who was eventually moved back to the right to get the most out of him. Now it seems really optimistic to make that player our 2nd choice striker in a season where we need to do well. I guess Greenwood scored 2 or 3 goals from CF last season. How are you confident that he can lead the line for approximately half a season? I am more confident that Martial can do that because I have seen him do it before.
AWB needs a back up, but not at the expense of our 2nd choice striker. And that's dependent on Dalot leaving anyway - nothing to do with Martial. If we want to buy a new midfielder we need to make space in our midfield, where we have far too many first teamers - not up front, where our depth is youth. The reason we can't sign a cm now is that our current senior options for the 3 midfield positions are (holds breath) Bruno, Pogba, Donny, McTominay, Fred, Matic, Pereira, Mata, Lingard. That's 3 senior players for each position, each probably on over £100000 pw. To get a midfielder we need to shift a couple of them. Martial has nothing to do with it.
We'd sell Martial now to get in a back up RB or DM. The point about Haaland next season was we may very well not have the ability to address our midfield and Martial's value could plummet. Reports say we're not buying without selling first and 5-10 million from selling Dalot is unlikely to get us a competent RB.
Cavani's age is irrelevant. I've already addressed his overstated injury record and his ability to play more than once a week.
Ole clearly doesn't think Greenwood is a "stop gap". He's played up top 31 times officially. Him playing out wide as much as he has was in large part to us not having quality options on the right, which is why we bought Sancho.
Rashford as CF last season: 15apps, 4G, 6A, yet you would refuse 50m for a backup striker on a ridiculous salary with the same goal contribution ratio.
We don't have "too many first teamers" in midfield. Matic is the only real DM we have and he's past it. Donny is unproven. Pogba isn't even trusted by Ole in the pivot against big teams. There's McTominay and Fred, yet that's acceptable to you for 2 pivot slots, but Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Elanga at CF is somehow sabotaging our title chances.
At the end of the day. You rate Martial to the point where you think it's likely he goes back to his 19/20 form. I think 20/21 is Martial. I also rate Greenwood and Rashford up top more highly than you do and I think Elanga is the real deal.
If anything 19/20 is the stand out example if his play and goals to game ratio. In no other season has he got close to being that productive. However I will say I don’t think we will sell him. Greenwood is not a cf, nor rashford, so we are hoping for martial to go from being on average a 1 in 3.3 games striker to the one getting 1 in 2
How do you not see that we won't sign a player for the pivot when we have Pogba, donny, matic, fred, mctominay and pereira for that position, and that selling Martial doesn't change this? How do you expect elanga to get many minutes at no9, when Greenwood had to wait more than a year for that despite being generational (and even now he is far more effective coming in off the right)? Elanga could well be the real deal, but hes the not gonna come in and be a reliable striker for a title challenge in his 1st season cos no-one ever does that. Why sacrifice greenwood and Rashford's game by selling someone who actually plays the striker role?
I'm not even saying he'll match his 2019/2020 form, I'm just making the (I thought) uncontroversial point that it's better to play players in the positions they are good in. It's also not a good idea to stack pressure on young players by demanding they become your principle goalscorers if you want them to have a successful career. It's also better to not have a really unbalanced squad with 10 first team midfielders and 1 first team striker. What part of this don't you agree with?
Let's just hope stars align and Inter will threw money at us for Martial after losing Lukaku to Chelsea and Lautario to Tottenham so we can finally end this Martial debate. Would rather we sign another Cavani type veteran cover than keep Martial honestly before going all out for Erling next year.
Pereira in the pivot and you talk about throwing away our title chances. Are you having a laugh?
Pogba isn't trusted by Ole in the pivot against strong teams, that's why he plays LW against big fish. Matic is over the hill and VDB has played 6 full games in the pivot and could flop. We have McFred, that's about 4,5 players for 2 positions. How is that being completely stacked in midfield when 3 senior players for CF is somehow the end to our title chances?
Next season, Matic will be a year older, Pogba leaves on a free and VDB could flop. If Martial has a terrible season and loses his value, don't you think it's a lot harder to refresh the midfield and go after Haaland? Both our goalkeepers are bang average, and we need a RB right now.
Greenwood made his debut against Astana sept 2019. He played the cups and had a lot of league sub apps, then went on that terrific run in June after the covid break. Elanga would play the cups, get subs and then we'll see. How is his role different than Greenwood's in 19/20? That season we had Martial, Ighalo, Rashford.
Cavani will be back this week. Do you seriously think both Cavani and Greenwood getting injured before Rashford returns in November is a bigger risk than AWB getting injured anywhere along the season and Dalot failing to be an adequate replacement?
Stop it with your strawmen. Obviously I don't want pereira starting in the pivot, but he is depth for that position. It's not a good idea to have 10 midfielders and 1 striker cos injuries happen and if we have 1 striker we are 1 injury away from our title charge basically being done. Our squad is bloated in midfield and light up top, and so we should sell midfielders, not strikers, before we buy midfielders.
Cavani will not play every week. Greenwood is more effective from the right. Rashford is more effective from the left. We can play Greenwood through the middle in less high-pressure games, and we can play Rashford through the middle as a last resort. But if we have important, high-stakes games and Cavani is not available, Martial is a better option than either. Elanga will be blooded slowly, if he is to be blooded this season.
So why would you sell a striker and play other players out of position, weakening our whole attack, so you can buy a second backup right back? I think that AWB is more likely to be able to play every game than Cavani, and if he misses a few then I trust Dalot to deputise for 10/20 games a season. At least he is a right back.
I'm beginning to worry that this conversation is broken because you can't distinguish between a wide goalscorer and a number 9. What do you think our strikers actually do?
Lukaku didn’t fecking run either
5 goals/year player, who cares
But he isn’t though. This forum is littered with stupid posts like this. Hope he plays a blinder this season, will shut up some of the muppets on here.
Talking about straw man.Haaland and Mbappe aren't classical no 9's either and why would Cavani not play every week?
If Cavani is out, we play Rashford-Greenwood-Sancho. If everyone's fit we have 3 class players for 2 positions out wide.
Dalot played five 90 minute matches in the league 2 years ago and didn't impress. If AWB does his ACL we're taking a giant risk. Why the hell do you think we're linked with a proven PL RB like Trip? For some reason you think an unproven 2nd RB is a smaller risk than playing Greenwood up top...
You can keep crying about me not understanding but I can summarize your positions just fine:
- Cavani is a crock that can't play often (both demonstrably false)
- Martial is reliable (his stats say otherwise)
- Greenwood is unreliable (30 CF apps and used by Ole with Martial available)
- Rashford can't do well up top as 3rd choice CF (even though his stats say otherwise)
If a good offer comes in for him, it's a risk to keep him. Another poor season and his value plummets, so we'll end up stuck with him and his huge contract.
Selling him is a huge risk too, as it leaves us reliant upon a 35 year old, a player that's out for months and a few young and inconsistent players.
We seem to be putting a lot of eggs in the Haaland basket for next summer, but what happens if we don't get him, Kane's gone to City and Mbappe to Real? We'd end up overpaying for another inconsistent or average striker with potential, in the Martial mould essentially. Or we take a risk on someone unproven at this level.
The lesser risk is to keep him and hope that his form improves this season.
Selling him is a huge risk too, as it leaves us reliant upon a 35 year old, a player that's out for months and a few young and inconsistent players.
We seem to be putting a lot of eggs in the Haaland basket for next summer, but what happens if we don't get him, Kane's gone to City and Mbappe to Real? We'd end up overpaying for another inconsistent or average striker with potential, in the Martial mould essentially. Or we take a risk on someone unproven at this level.
The lesser risk is to keep him and hope that his form improves this season.
Haaland and Mbappe aren't classical no 9's either and why would Cavani not play every week?
If Cavani is out, we play Rashford-Greenwood-Sancho. If everyone's fit we have 3 class players for 2 positions out wide.
Dalot played five 90 minute matches in the league 2 years ago and didn't impress. If AWB does his ACL we're taking a giant risk. Why the hell do you think we're linked with a proven PL RB like Trip? For some reason you think an unproven 2nd RB is a smaller risk than playing Greenwood up top...
You can keep crying about me not understanding but I can summarize your positions just fine:
See the tables in my previous posts.
- Cavani is a crock that can't play often (both demonstrably false)
- Martial is reliable (his stats say otherwise)
- Greenwood is unreliable (30 CF apps and used by Ole with Martial available)
- Rashford can't do well up top as 3rd choice CF (even though his stats say otherwise)
Jeez mate, it seems like you think our season is dependent on us selling Martial. Like you can't tolerate the opinion that actually he's a good player who had a bad season. What do you think will happen if we keep him that we should be so afraid of?
He's a player who's served us very well in the last 6 seasons, and I think it's kind of sad how much some fans think he's somehow the one who's dragging us down.
And 4 good players for 3 positions is never enough, not for 60 game seasons.
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I don't care that Martial is a bit better at heading and holding up the ball. You also get a static tree in return. Different players have different qualities. Both Haaland and Mbappe aren't guys you wanna give the ball with their backs to the goal either. Haaland's hold up play is bang average, actually. Do Poch or Zidane not understand what a CF is or does? If you had Messi would you not play him in his best position (up top) because he's not tall?
I personally wouldn't want Griezmann at our club given his antics in the past. Don't think it fits with our fanbase.
Oh, don't be so dramatic.
None of us can be right all the time on every players. He was player of the season twice. Great. The bar for those has been pretty low for us. And, do you see him improving? Even after his good form in 2020, he did not improve or even maintain that in 2021. If you think that he enjoys being rotated, you have not watched him so much as you claimed doing. He is not that young or not that old to say if he will improve massively or have tons of experience over others. If you don't notice btw, he is not the type of striker we need which makes claims like we should keep him for a striker position strange.
What is this baseless assumption coming that I want to sell him for peanuts from?
Signing Zlatan and Lukaku has nothing to do with Martial's form. They are CFs and Martial was LW at that point. They were not even competing for same position. It was Rashford vs Martial for LW position when Jose was manager and when Ole became manager he played them together, first by playing Rashford as CF and Martial as LW. Then from 2019-20 season, he changed positions, with Martial playing as CF and Rashford as LW.
Also he wasn't poor in 2017-18 season, he started from the bench at the start of the season and he won LW position by playing very well. Then Jose messed it up by signing Sanchez and moving Martial to RW and all over the place.
No player loves being rotated, when the player is rotated you might get few reactions from players. One is like Martial who plays well to win his position back and the other is like Lukaku who talks big when he is undisputed starter but the moment he isn't first choice by default, he will run away.
Going by their careers Martial always responded well when he had to fight for his position.
I kinda remember it differently tbh. Not that I am against being wrong on it this season.
I think we keep him another year until we can resolve the No 9 position (Mason steps up or we get another 9). He can be replaced on the left by Elanga and / or Pellistri but we need a backup 9 when Cavani is injured (and assuming Mason is still learning his trade at 9). But if we get a €50m + offer this summer, I would be ok moving him on.
Cavani not even back in training till next week so likely Martial can get 2 games under his belt this week and next
for £50m would you REALLY drive Martial to Italy yourselves, though?
It's a long-ass drive and he's a sulky bastard, what would you even talk about for like 35 hours?
I'd like the club to get £50m if it came down to me to drive him there, I'd rather just keep him
It's a long-ass drive and he's a sulky bastard, what would you even talk about for like 35 hours?
I'd like the club to get £50m if it came down to me to drive him there, I'd rather just keep him
It would be an awkward conversation! Especially since you're driving him down because you think he's crap.for £50m would you REALLY drive Martial to Italy yourselves, though?
It's a long-ass drive and he's a sulky bastard, what would you even talk about for like 35 hours?
I'd like the club to get £50m if it came down to me to drive him there, I'd rather just keep him
Has he? Fairly certain his worst two seasons were when we brought in Zlatan and Cavani respectively.
Rather than rise to the challenge like Shaw when we brought in Telles he seemed to shrink and sulk both times.
Whether Martial or Greenwood starts up top should give us an indication of the manager's intentions.
I would sell him for 50m and just write 45m into the books so I could rent a shuttle for him to drive him to Milano.for £50m would you REALLY drive Martial to Italy yourselves, though?
It's a long-ass drive and he's a sulky bastard, what would you even talk about for like 35 hours?
I'd like the club to get £50m if it came down to me to drive him there, I'd rather just keep him
Zlatan signing had nothing to do with Martial. He was LW back then, it was Rashford who used to play as CF, so everyone thought Zlatan will be stop gap for a year or 2 and Rashford will be our next CF. Martial played as LW.
I volunteer to provide that shuttle for 5m