Marcus Rashford vs Anthony Martial (2017 / 2018 Season)

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sincher said:
Just play them both.
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Just watching Rashford have a very good game playing on the right for England (albeit against poor opposition). Surely Mourinho has to try the same with Martial and Rashford on either side of Lukaku?
 
MDFC Manager said:
Just watching Rashford have a very good game playing on the right for England (albeit against poor opposition). Surely Mourinho has to try the same with Martial and Rashford on either side of Lukaku?
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I think he has been poor myself although I think he has just been coasting like the rest of the team. Hope he's subbed soon as England have qualified. Mourhino might surprise us and play Martial and Rashford either side of Lukaku to provide a pacy out let to beat Liverpool's pressing game.
 
GM K said:
I don't get this 'start both of them now' argument.

If interchanging them has contributed significantly to the way we have performed this season, why change a winning strategy?

I'm not sure Rashford or Martial are complaining at the moment. They are getting enough game time. What should players like Herrera, Blind, Darmien, Smalling, Carrick, Romero, Lingard and even Fellaini etc be saying?

The rotation idea is a brilliant one. At least, the results prove it. Rashford has also confessed that it keeps both of them hungry. Moreover, it is a massive advantage when your opponents look at your bench and see that you have at least one potential game changer waiting to come in.

I think things will evolve naturally. No need to force it. With time, I see both players starting games but the conditions for that will be obvious.
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It's simple, there are many posters who are more in love with players than with the club. Like you said, those discussions would merit attention if the club was struggling for creativity and goals. As long as the club is playing well, I honestly don't give a feck who starts or who doesn't. Some part of me thinks Martial should play more but then again the balance is good right now so who cares.
 
kouroux said:
It's simple, there are many posters who are more in love with players than with the club. Like you said, those discussions would merit attention if the club was struggling for creativity and goals. As long as the club is playing well, I honestly don't give a feck who starts or who doesn't. Some part of me thinks Martial should play more but then again the balance is good right now so who cares.
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The reality is I would be incredibly surprised if there is even one of those.

The forum is for micro-analysis. People can say close the forum because we are winning, and then as soon as we are not, it will be uproar. Two simple extremes. And I also saw people moan when we won games under Van Gaal as we were only winning them 1-0. Perhaps we should have kept quiet? A large part of the reason we have been doing better than just 1-0 is because Martial has been coming off the bench to turn the 1-0s into 4-0s with goals and assists.

And developing no affinity to the players of your club is a ridiculous notion in any case.
 
Rozay said:
The reality is I would be incredibly surprised if there is even one of those.

The forum is for micro-analysis. People can say close the forum because we are winning, and then as soon as we are not, it will be uproar. Two simple extremes. And I also saw people moan when we won games under Van Gaal as we were only winning them 1-0. Perhaps we should have kept quiet? A large part of the reason we have been doing better than just 1-0 is because Martial has been coming off the bench to turn the 1-0s into 4-0s with goals and assists.

And developing no affinity to the players of your club is a ridiculous notion in any case.
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You clearly don't remember the Kagawa cult then I suppose. It's happened before on the caf, people blinded by their love (or hatred) for some players that they forget the essential of what has brought us all on this site. I kid you not, there are people who are weirdos like that.
 
kouroux said:
You clearly don't remember the Kagawa cult then I suppose. It's happened before on the caf, people blinded by their love (or hatred) for some players that they forget the essential of what has brought us all on this site. I kid you not, there are people who are weirdos like that.
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I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those guys just wanted Kagawa to start as they thought it would benefit the team. Not because they put the player before club. It's fairly logical.
 
OL29 said:
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those guys just wanted Kagawa to start as they thought it would benefit the team. Not because they put the player before club. It's fairly logical.
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That's the thing though, you believe something so much so make it true whereas there was no real proof of Kagawa actually making the team better other than in some flashes. There is also the reverse effect (hatred), wasn't there a caftard who said if Lukaku signed, he'd stop supporting the club or something like that ?
 
kouroux said:
That's the thing though, you believe something so much so make it true whereas there was no real proof of Kagawa actually making the team better other than in some flashes. There is also the reverse effect (hatred), wasn't there a caftard who said if Lukaku signed, he'd stop supporting the club or something like that ?
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Yeah I remember that, that's unfathomable to me I'm sure that poster's fairly embarrassed by his reaction now.
With regards to Kagawa, you may be correct and as we saw, he wasn't good enough but I'm still pretty sure that those who were crying out for him to start did so with the belief that he'd improve us, not out of loyalty to the player. Same with Martial. It happens at any club where there's vast competition for places.
 
OL29 said:
With regards to Kagawa, you may be correct and as we saw, he wasn't good enough but I'm still pretty sure that those who were crying out for him to start did so with the belief that he'd improve us, not out of loyalty to the player. Same with Martial. It happens at any club where there's vast competition for places.
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Yes but to be doing it with so much gusto during a period where we would have struggled to be any more dominant in terms of results strikes me as a bit odd.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
Yes but to be doing it with so much gusto during a period where we would have struggled to be any more dominant in terms of results strikes me as a bit odd.
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Fans will always find something to complain about. It's the nature of the sport, there's always room for improvement.
 
OL29 said:
Fans will always find something to complain about. It's the nature of the sport, there's always room for improvement.
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There's looking for improvement and there's shit like saying that a player really should leave the club for the sake of his career just because he's been on the bench a few times at the start of the season. Or telling anyone that will listen that Jose doesn't rate Martial and will look to sell him at the first opportunity he gets. @kouroux is bang on with what he said above.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
There's looking for improvement and there's shit like saying that a player really should leave the club for the sake of his career just because he's been on the bench a few times at the start of the season. Or telling anyone that will listen that Jose doesn't rate Martial and will look to sell him at the first opportunity he gets. @kouroux is bang on with what he said above.
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Well I've never met a fan who places more importance on a player than the club and I doubt many exist.
I think you're seeing things that don't exist.
 
OL29 said:
Well I've never met a fan who places more importance on a player than the club and I doubt many exist.
I think you're seeing things that don't exist.
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There are people (wouldn't call them fans) who are like that. This caf is huge so a few weirdos shouldn't be a surprise. It has happened enough to be noticed
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
So what are your thoughts on the examples I've given above then?
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I think people exaggerate to make a point, if they actually stoped supporting the club because of a player leaving then I'd agree with you but I've yet to see that happen.
 
kouroux said:
There are people (wouldn't call them fans) who are like that. This caf is huge so a few weirdos shouldn't be a surprise. It has happened enough to be noticed
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Maybe I've just missed it, it's a very weird way to support a football club!
 
Coming back to the thread. Both should and will hopefully start at some point (as long as the team benefits from it anyway). I think both at the same time, interchanging flanks could potentially wreak havoc during games.
 
kouroux said:
Coming back to the thread. Both should and will hopefully start at some point (as long as the team benefits from it anyway). I think both at the same time, interchanging flanks could potentially wreak havoc during games.
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I have a feeling they would've by now if Pogba hadn't been injured. With Pogba out, Mata plays a much bigger role then before in terms of controlling possession and adding creativity. Obviously it won't happen but vs Liverpool I feel like it'd work really well, since we'll likely play on the break anyway.
 
OL29 said:
Well I've never met a fan who places more importance on a player than the club and I doubt many exist.
I think you're seeing things that don't exist.
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Exactly. The fact is; the second Martial leaves United, nobody will care much at all. Likewise, the second a player joins us, you see sweeping changes on here defending them.
 
OL29 said:
Well I've never met a fan who places more importance on a player than the club and I doubt many exist.
I think you're seeing things that don't exist.
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I've met plenty of fans like that in person, usually when there's a nationality connection. For some of them it starts out like that but eventually they develop a stronger affinity for the club their favoured player spent most of his career at. Others just follow the player around, supporting the clubs they play at only for as long as they do.

On the Caf I think it's mostly exaggeration by those desperate for attention. Although there comes a point when you're so committed to a point of view some seem more eager to be proven right in their pessimism than for the club to succeed.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
It rather depends upon how he leaves. If people perceive that he hasn't been given a chance by Jose there will be hell to pay.
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Until the next person comes in to replace him, and then they become all that matters. The cycle has literally occurred many times. I've seen Kagawa mentioned as an example, nobody cares what he does today.
 
whatwha said:
Before anyone puts all their chips on the "keep rotating them as it seems to work" strategy, we should at least try playing both at the same time - for comparison - as it's never been tried yet...
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When you have done as well as we have, it also makes little sense to change the winning formula. Mata may not have directly contributed to as many goals as he normally does, but we play better with him in the squad.
 
Rozay said:
Until the next person comes in to replace him, and then they become all that matters. The cycle has literally occurred many times. I've seen Kagawa mentioned as an example, nobody cares what he does today.
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So why are you and others getting so worked up about the fact that Martial isn't starting every game? You were saying he should leave United about 3 games into the season! If you just view him as an employee of the club, to be used as and where deemed appropriate then why are you so bothered about the fact that he is currently sharing game-time (extremely effectively) with Rashford?
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
So why are you and others getting so worked up about the fact that Martial isn't starting every game? You were saying he should leave United about 3 games into the season! If you just view him as an employee of the club, to be used as and where deemed appropriate then why are you so bothered about the fact that he is currently sharing game-time (extremely effectively) with Rashford?
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Its surely quite possible to think that Martial is being mismanaged without supporting him over the club? You can think, if we used him more / played him and Rashford together / played him up front it would make the team better, but Mourinho isnt doing it - and then complain about that fact. You can think it would be better for him as a player if he went somewhere else and played under a manager that would use him better and get the most out of him, surely that would be an objective opinion, not a case of supporting the player over the club? As Rozay said, you might have that opinion, it might frustrate the hell out of you, in due course maybe the player leaves - Martial, Kagawa before him, whoever - and then you move on.

Of course given the size of the fanbase there will be exceptions. Im sure there are people who will become PSG fans if we sell Martial to PSG - or whoever. But my guess is most people who say we should play Martial more, or differently, or Martial is the best player we have, are saying it because in their assessment it is in the best interests of the club.
 
Adebesi said:
Its surely quite possible to think that Martial is being mismanaged without supporting him over the club? You can think, if we used him more / played him and Rashford together / played him up front it would make the team better, but Mourinho isnt doing it - and then complain about that fact. You can think it would be better for him as a player if he went somewhere else and played under a manager that would use him better and get the most out of him, surely that would be an objective opinion, not a case of supporting the player over the club? As Rozay said, you might have that opinion, it might frustrate the hell out of you, in due course maybe the player leaves - Martial, Kagawa before him, whoever - and then you move on.

Of course given the size of the fanbase there will be exceptions. Im sure there are people who will become PSG fans if we sell Martial to PSG - or whoever. But my guess is most people who say we should play Martial more, or differently, or Martial is the best player we have, are saying it because in their assessment it is in the best interests of the club.
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I don't have an issue with any of that. But when the club is doing brilliantly to be constantly banging a drum about how hard done by a player is - and often denigrating the player that is seen as taking the other's place in the starting line up - is what grates. I'm not talking about comments like 'United are doing great but I think we could be even better if Mourinho started Martial more often', I'm talking about people stating 3 games into the season that 'Martial needs to leave United for the good of his career'...how is that putting the club over the individual?
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
So why are you and others getting so worked up about the fact that Martial isn't starting every game? You were saying he should leave United about 3 games into the season! If you just view him as an employee of the club, to be used as and where deemed appropriate then why are you so bothered about the fact that he is currently sharing game-time (extremely effectively) with Rashford?
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My reasons have been clear. I am not the person who said there is an issue with people liking players more than a club. I am the one who countered it by saying it is ridiculous to suggest that fans will not develop an affinity to the clubs players.

Martial plays for us now, and as a result, I want him to fulfil what I think is an obvious potential, one that I happen to think is higher than Rashford's. As a result, if that level of talent plays for the club, naturally, I want to see it blossom. The fact that we can win football matches without him is irrelevant. We may win the PL this year without Lionel Messi. So what?

Another point the 'why change?' mob don't seem to consider is the fact that Martial is also fecking great to watch. This is a hugely important factor for fans. He is also productive, so nobody is asking for a circus clown to play with no output. For a long period in his first season, he was the sole reason that made games worth watching (apart from the fact I watch every United game regardless). He's not only better than Rashford (seeing as I'm being made to compare them again), but he's also much easier on the eye to watch.

The fact that we are winning games is not an argument, and never justification to not play your best players. Not just for United, for every team. It's actually ridiculous, thinking of it. The only sensible argument would be if you simply disagreed that Martial was amongst our best players. Then that's fair. But if you don't disagree, then the fact that we won a game or 5 with Rashford, Lingard, Mata or whoever makes little difference in my opinion. My argument is based on thinking he is our best option in his role. Not that I think our second best option is of no use.

I also think both players should play, as they are collectively our best option too.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
I don't have an issue with any of that. But when the club is doing brilliantly to be constantly banging a drum about how hard done by a player is - and often denigrating the player that is seen as taking the other's place in the starting line up - is what grates. I'm not talking about comments like 'United are doing great but I think we could be even better if Mourinho started Martial more often', I'm talking about people stating 3 games into the season that 'Martial needs to leave United for the good of his career'...how is that putting the club over the individual?
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Fair enough. For me that's probably borderline. As I said, I could see someone saying that as a statement of objective opinion - I would distinguish "Martial needs to leave United for the good of his career" with "I wish Martial would leave United and sign for a club that would play him every game." Maybe some people think the implication of the first statement makes it effectively the same as the second statement, but I dont. I think the implication of the first statement is more: "If we dont play Martial more often he is going to leave." Which, regardless of whether or not I agree with it, seems a reasonable and defensible position.
 
Rozay said:
Martial plays for us now, and as a result, I want him to fulfil what I think is an obvious potential, one that I happen to think is higher than Rashford's. As a result, if that level of talent plays for the club, naturally, I want to see it blossom. The fact that we can win football matches without him is irrelevant. We may win the PL this year without Lionel Messi. So what?
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Yes but you were writing literally a couple of games into the season! You weren't even prepared to wait to see whether he worked his way into the starting lineup. Whether you want to admit it or not Martial was disappointing last season and Mourinho was absolutely justified in starting with Rashford over him. But you were bleating about it from the off. Since then he's made plenty of appearances, started both CL games, and with a huge amount of football to come is likely to be an absolutely key member of the first team - but you talk as though he has just been ignored. There's no reason to go off at the deep end about him not being able to blossom, his form so far this season suggests that that is exactly what is happening.

Rozay said:
Another point the 'why change?' mob don't seem to consider is the fact that Martial is also fecking great to watch. This is a hugely important factor for fans. He is also productive, so nobody is asking for a circus clown to play with no output. For a long period in his first season, he was the sole reason that made games worth watching (apart from the fact I watch every United game regardless). He's not only better than Rashford (seeing as I'm being made to compare them again), but he's also much easier on the eye to watch.
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Mob? You mean fans who see the bigger picture and are very happy with how the team has started the season? I've highlighted those lines because I think that is part of the problem with how you are viewing the situation - you act like it is an affront to football to have Rashford starting in front of him, but personally I think Rashford is also brilliant to watch - I think you sorely underrate him.

Rozay said:
The fact that we are winning games is not an argument, and never justification to not play your best players. Not just for United, for every team. It's actually ridiculous, thinking of it. The only sensible argument would be if you simply disagreed that Martial was amongst our best players. Then that's fair. But if you don't disagree, then the fact that we won a game or 5 with Rashford, Lingard, Mata or whoever makes little difference in my opinion. My argument is based on thinking he is our best option in his role. Not that I think our second best option is of no use.
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Feck me, he is being played! He's not bound up in a dungeon somewhere. He has been a big part of how strong we have looked so far this season - and I know you'll disagree, but part of that could well be argued to be because of how Mourinho has managed Rashford and Martial. They have both reacted phenomenally and the stats they have racked up between them are testament to that.

Rozay said:
I also think both players should play, as they are collectively our best option too.
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Well i would love to see that too - and who's to say that we won't soon?
 
Adebesi said:
Fair enough. For me that's probably borderline. As I said, I could see someone saying that as a statement of objective opinion - I would distinguish "Martial needs to leave United for the good of his career" with "I wish Martial would leave United and sign for a club that would play him every game." Maybe some people think the implication of the first statement makes it effectively the same as the second statement, but I dont. I think the implication of the first statement is more: "If we dont play Martial more often he is going to leave." Which, regardless of whether or not I agree with it, seems a reasonable and defensible position.
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No, you are putting a spin on that statement has not been present in the posts that I'm referring to. The emphasis has been very much on the player rather than the club. You're playing devil's advocate - which is fair enough - but really you would need to read the posts/threads and make your own mind up rather than imagining what was said and why.
 
@Rusholme Ruffian I agree with you that a few games into the season (and even arguably now) is premature to be making those kinds of statements.

And Rozay,

Rozay said:
He's not only better than Rashford (seeing as I'm being made to compare them again), but he's also much easier on the eye to watch.
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I dont think anybody is making you compare them. You just seem to be quite happy to do it on your own.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
No, you are putting a spin on that statement has not been present in the posts that I'm referring to. The emphasis has been very much on the player rather than the club. You're playing devil's advocate - which is fair enough - but really you would need to read the posts/threads and make your own mind up rather than imagining what was said and why.
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Fair enough, I was actually tempted to edit my post to change that bit you bolded because I recognised it was a bit of a leap before you replied. And yes, I may have missed posts you are referring to. But still, you see the distinction between the first two statements? Even if the real intended meaning is not the third, it doesnt mean it was necessarily the second either.

Anyway Ive said my piece on this, I certainly cant be arsed to trawl through pages and pages of people whinging about Martial, so I guess Ill leave it at that.
 
Adebesi said:
Fair enough, I was actually tempted to edit my post to change that bit you bolded because I recognised it was a bit of a leap before you replied. And yes, I may have missed posts you are referring to. But still, you see the distinction between the first two statements? Even if the real intended meaning is not the third, it doesnt mean it was necessarily the second either.

Anyway Ive said my piece on this, I certainly cant be arsed to trawl through pages and pages of people whinging about Martial, so I guess Ill leave it at that.
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Yes, of course I see the distinction between the two statements - but I'm commenting on statements in the context of a myriad of wider posts, whereas you were literally just taking a bald statement and illustrating that it can be meant in various ways.
 
Akshay said:
I've met plenty of fans like that in person, usually when there's a nationality connection. For some of them it starts out like that but eventually they develop a stronger affinity for the club their favoured player spent most of his career at. Others just follow the player around, supporting the clubs they play at only for as long as they do.

On the Caf I think it's mostly exaggeration by those desperate for attention. Although there comes a point when you're so committed to a point of view some seem more eager to be proven right in their pessimism than for the club to succeed.
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Yeah I can imagine that some fans follow particular players based on nationality, these particular fans tend to be prominent on Twitter and the like.

As you say, on the Caf there tends to be a minority of stubborn individuals who are overly committed to being proven right. I can't imagine that they're that infatuated with a player that they support them over the club though.
 
Adebesi said:
@Rusholme Ruffian I agree with you that a few games into the season (and even arguably now) is premature to be making those kinds of statements.

And Rozay,


I dont think anybody is making you compare them. You just seem to be quite happy to do it on your own.
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The post questioned why I would be unhappy Rashford is playing. I think Martial is better than him, that's part of the response.
 
OL29 said:
As you say, on the Caf there tends to be a minority of stubborn individuals who are overly committed to being proven right. I can't imagine that they're that infatuated with a player that they support them over the club though.
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Have you been on much recently?! There's a sizeable minority who are unable to derive any joy from the club whilst Mourinho is in charge. This is a massive forum, with a huge range of 'types' of fan, and loads that have their pet agendas. (BTW not saying that I'm perfect myself - far from it!)
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
Have you been on much recently?! There's a sizeable minority who are unable to derive any joy from the club whilst Mourinho is in charge. This is a massive forum, with a huge range of 'types' of fan, and loads that have their pet agendas. (BTW not saying that I'm perfect myself - far from it!)
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I've seen the type of fan you talk of but to be honest, I don't think they've been that prevelant in the Martial/ Rashford threads. I do think the comparison between the 2 has become a bit poisonous on each side. There's a number of fans on each side who feel the need to belittle one to praise the other, which in turn makes the other side more defensive. As you and Rozay have both pointed out, you can prefer one as a player whilst still appreciating the other.

There's not a perfect fan amongst us, the nature of the sport is bound to polarize!
 
OL29 said:
I've seen the type of fan you talk of but to be honest, I don't think they've been that prevelant in the Martial/ Rashford threads. I do think the comparison between the 2 has become a bit poisonous on each side. There's a number of fans on each side who feel the need to belittle one to praise the other, which in turn makes the other side more defensive. As you and Rozay have both pointed out, you can prefer one as a player whilst still appreciating the other.
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I don't think I've ever said that I prefer one to the other - I think they are both brilliant in slightly different ways and I love watching them both. I don't understand the need to constantly compare or belittle one to praise the other which happens all the time, as you rightly say.
 
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