Just play them both.
Marcus Rashford vs Anthony Martial (2017 / 2018 Season)
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He obviously feels, at this point in the season, that Rashford offers some qualities that are more valuable as a starter than Martial does. I don't think that necessarily means that he rates Rashford more highly (or wants to sell Martial as one poster believes). We're still at the start of the season really, and maybe Martial will start more games in Europe - who knows?
How is it the ceiling when they're both comfortably better at a similar age?
Not sure that means a whole lot as players develop at different rates - and anyway, I'd argue that Robben was at a similar level to Martial at the same age. Rooney was amazing at 21 and arguably never got any better. I'm sure we'd all like to believe that they could be better than Bale and Robben, but they've got a long way to go...
Not sure if this is already posted.
@roonster09 It was. 
Has Martial been called up for France? If not, it might affect who starts against Lfc.
Has Martial been called up for France? If not, it might affect who starts against Lfc.
@roonster09 It was.
Has Martial been called up for France? If not, it might affect who starts against Lfc.
Don't think it will change. Last time Rashford played for England and also started against Stoke, Martial was unused sub in that game.
Hopefully this time Martial starts as he will be fresh and their RB is all over the place.
Don't think Martial would be starting against pool. Probably starts Rashford due to his defensive diligence then sub on Martial when their poor RB is tired.
Forget about Rashford. How about Martial v Hazard......
I like the way that Jose is using the two players. You have Rashford who starts and runs and runs and tires out the opposition defenders and then you have Martial who comes on late in the game and preys on the tired opposition defenders. The way Jose is using them utilises their strengths with Rashfords energy and work rate early and Martial's superior finishing better utilised later in the game. If we had another quality wide forward or winger in the squad like Lemar then we could play both and still have fresh legs for later but we don't have that player at the moment so they can't play at the same time.
Well based on that post by roonster above #245 - Jose is literally alternating their starts - especially if you look at the last 9 games. So it's not like Rashford is starting (much) more than Martial, or vice versa.
But I agree with your second point. The lack of any other serious pace/goal threat/game changer off the bench is weighing heavily in Jose's decision not to start both. Nothing quite troubles tired legs, like serious pace/dribbling.
I hear that to an extent, but it could be argued that if we had Perisic for example, there's an even higher chance that only one would start.
For me, when this point is made, you have to question the purpose of Lingard. People have a go at him, and he is defended by reminding people that his role is a substitute or squad player. Yet we keep saying how much we need a third option as if he doesn't exist.
I also think Mkhitaryan should be brought into that mix. He has pace and can play either side, and if Mata were to start as the 10, Mkhitaryan could be that man from the bench. There is a strong argument that that should be the natural order of things anyway.
I don't disagree with any of that. I think the vast majority, if not all, will agree that both Rashford and Martial have done enough to warrant starting (even if it from the right wing - they can easily interchange) ahead Mata and to a lesser extent, even Mkhi.
But as you pointed out, if it's 0-0 or if we're even trailing - it wouldn't exactly fill any of us with confidence if our awe inspiring game-changing, go to guy subs are Lingard, Mata etc. Sure, they both have their uses and are doing a decent-good job for us, but IMO, nothing is going to threaten a tired defence or make them drop 3-5 yards deeper, like a fast/powerful sub who can cause damage. So maybe that is one area of the pitch we need a desperate signing in, if that is Jose's train of thought for them both not starting, that is. But the season is still young. As the games come thick and fast, and they keep this rate of productivity up, I'm sure we'll see them both start together sooner rather than later.
Completely agree.
Was it the Everton game where we looked completely pedestrian until Lingard came on, where he made a real difference to our attacking fluency? He can do it, obviously he isnt at the same level as Rashford or Martial but its not like he is inevitably anonymous when he comes on. Plus I love the way he links up with Rashford in particular.
No. Lingard looked equally shit until Herrera came on and we managed to balance the midfield
I don't get this 'start both of them now' argument.
If interchanging them has contributed significantly to the way we have performed this season, why change a winning strategy?
I'm not sure Rashford or Martial are complaining at the moment. They are getting enough game time. What should players like Herrera, Blind, Darmien, Smalling, Carrick, Romero, Lingard and even Fellaini etc be saying?
The rotation idea is a brilliant one. At least, the results prove it. Rashford has also confessed that it keeps both of them hungry. Moreover, it is a massive advantage when your opponents look at your bench and see that you have at least one potential game changer waiting to come in.
I think things will evolve naturally. No need to force it. With time, I see both players starting games but the conditions for that will be obvious.
If interchanging them has contributed significantly to the way we have performed this season, why change a winning strategy?
I'm not sure Rashford or Martial are complaining at the moment. They are getting enough game time. What should players like Herrera, Blind, Darmien, Smalling, Carrick, Romero, Lingard and even Fellaini etc be saying?
The rotation idea is a brilliant one. At least, the results prove it. Rashford has also confessed that it keeps both of them hungry. Moreover, it is a massive advantage when your opponents look at your bench and see that you have at least one potential game changer waiting to come in.
I think things will evolve naturally. No need to force it. With time, I see both players starting games but the conditions for that will be obvious.
Well this is the point. We can't exactly just sign Willian for £50m to do the role Lingard does. Everyone wants a 'game-changer' from the bench, but game-changers at this level generally don't want to be subs. Hence the fear of many that whichever one of the two who is condemned to the role of sub will want to leave to play every week. And that doesn't include Carlisle away in November.
Exactly!
Mkhitaryan can't play as a winger. We have tried playing him out wide and he is useless. He is not an adaptable player like Lemar who could play any of the attacking positions. He is a number 10 and needs to play centrally or benched.
Somebody quick tell Barca and Real that they've been doing it wrong all these years by playing Ronaldo/Bale and Messi/Neymar both at the same time when clearly the optimal strategy is to keep rotating them to keep them hungry, fresh and having a threat from the bench.
"It works for now" is a logic that will only get you that far. Because firstly, you can't disprove that it could have worked out as good (or better) with both on the pitch. It's not been tried. Secondly, the sample is small and the opposition has been inferior. Real could win 10 games in a row without one of Ronaldo or Bale in the line up, does that make rotating them an optimal strategy? And thirdly, players with stellar performances cannot be rotated indefinitely. It's not a sustainable situation long term. It might last you till the end of this season, but questions will be asked by the players after.
This new and bizarre narrative is doing my head in. And what irritate me the most is knowing that all these straw grasping arguments and nonsense pops up because some just want to justify the managers decision and make him faultless whatever his actions and choices.
Whoever heard before that a team should keep some of their best players on the bench rather than starting them so they can come in later against tired defense? And why aren't those people even embarrassed writing down such nonsense?
Bloody hell.
United is not Barca or Real. Neither do they have the same managers. Neither are Rashford and Martial, the same as Messi/Neymar/Suarez/Bale/Ronaldo etc. Their situations are also different. So, no point trying to fit one cap for all.
No one is saying the rotation should go on forever. I'm sure Jose hasn't written it somewhere in his planning note that: "Rashford and Mrtial to be rotated for as long as I am at Old Trafford" and if he has, well, we'll see how that works out well for him.
What we do know for sure is:
- The rotation is working at the moment.
- Both players are improving.
- Both players are delivering stats better than they have done wince joining United (5 goals in 8 games plus 4 assists already for Martial and 5 goals in 9 games plus 3 assists already for Rashford).
- Both players are getting more game time than most of the others in that team.
- And if precedence as far as Jose is to be believed, then it is a matter of time before those two kids become full starters if they work hard and follow their managers instructions to the letter.
I see no reason to change a winning strategy at the moment. Jose has proven to be smart enough to know when to switch things if results are not going as planned. I think that is one of his strengths as a manager.
Whereas a lot of people that are so irate at the situation (on behalf of Martial) are people that had a prior grudge against the manager and are using it as a stick to beat him with - because given our start there is precious little else for them to use at the moment.
The ONLY thing that can justify the manager's decision is performance, results, and maintaining a happy dressing room - so far there is zero evidence against Mourinho in any of those areas.
Completely agree!What those team that play in a completely different league? It's still only early October and these two players are youngsters - why the panic?
You detected panic in my post? Where exactly?
I've repeatedly said that the current condition could be perpetuated by Mourinho till the end of the season, but after that both those players will want their situation more clarified. Is that an indication of panic?
It's an analogy buddy. I'm sure you know how these work. And it's not a far fetched one at all. All teams at the top end of their league but with fierce competition, star players with good goalscoring/assisting contribution etc.
As for the rest, I've already mentioned my opinion in the previous post.
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Before anyone puts all their chips on the "keep rotating them as it seems to work" strategy, we should at least try playing both at the same time - for comparison - as it's never been tried yet...
What a crazy idea. But but but... it works, and they keep improving, and we are winning?! What if we try them on the same line up and then Kim Jong Un presses the button? Then what?
Great post. Couldn't agree more.
Be serious. Kim Jong Un is far more likely to press the button if we dont play them both together, everything he has said and done until now points to that.
It was more a general comment than anything specifically aimed at you. There is panic all over this and various other threads, but the reality is that everyone seems happy and things are going really well. Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion as to whether Mourinho's team selection is correct, but no-one can really argue that the team is doing very well. Anything else is just conjecture.
I do know how it works my friend. My response was meant to draw your attention to the fact that football is so dynamic that something might work well for one team while something entirely different works well for another team. Will playing Rashford and Martial together consistently from the start, work at this moment? Maybe. Is the rotation working well? Yes, from all indication. So, why be in a hurry to change a winning strategy just because Barcelona and Madrid use a different strategy?
There may strong arguments for both options but the reality right now is that Jose has opted for an option that is giving us good results without compromising the quality of our football significantly. We can't fault that. If we begin to see more negative results (dropping points; one of the two youngsters wanting to leave; etc) then there can be a reason to start wondering what the heck is wrong with the manager if he does not try something else. For now, all seems well. Lets' keep enjoying those boys battle it out while bagging more goals and assists.
Ok fair enough. Fans do tend to be impatient. Personally I feel Mourinho will eventually give Martial and Rashford a few chances together. If not by choice then maybe by necessity. We're one injury/ban to Mkhi or Mata away from having to play Martial and Rashford. It'll be up to them to show enough maturity in those games to be considered ahead of their other teammates.
Generally, our options behind the striker are just brilliant at the moment. What a difference a year makes - even without any personnel changes in that departement. Love the way Martial, Miki, Lingard and Rash have improved individually and as a unit under Mourinho. Mata too, but he has always been steady.
Believe me, nothing would make me more excited than to see Lukaku up front with Martial and Rashford either side - it could be devastating, and I hope we won't have to wait too long to see it.
I'm also aware though that Mata probably brings a calmness, experience and nous to our game that we might not always notice and might not always be reflected in goals and assists - but Mourinho, for now, obviously thinks it's important, and it's hard to argue with that too much because the team is looking very good.
Good post. No insulting of United players and a fairly objective view of a team that's scored 21 goals in 6 league games so far.
I think it has more to do with trust and belief in them. Not sure if Mourinho puts the same amount of it in both of the guys. Inclined to think he's more reliant on Rashford.
I doubt he sees both of them as mature enough to start in the same game.
I would love to see them together, but I doubt there will be many opportunities to watch them line up from the first whistle.
Not sure if Jose is right to limit them to left winger only and not try one of them through the right vs a strong opposition.
Our front line looked menacing when two of them started, although Rashford was playing in the 9 spot. Want to see them each side of Romelu.
I doubt he sees both of them as mature enough to start in the same game.
I would love to see them together, but I doubt there will be many opportunities to watch them line up from the first whistle.
Not sure if Jose is right to limit them to left winger only and not try one of them through the right vs a strong opposition.
Our front line looked menacing when two of them started, although Rashford was playing in the 9 spot. Want to see them each side of Romelu.
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