Marcus Rashford (Out) | Ornstein: United want to keep, will only consider substantial bids

Rashford regularly scores against top teams. My issue with Rashford is not so much his brilliance, but the rubbishness on the market. We will spend 80m and get a player who excites us for a little while, because he is new, but when it’s said and done - his excitement probably won’t produce a better statistical output than Rashford will get this season - and definitely not what he will get in a good season.

I look at players like Luis Diaz for example. Unanimously praised by all, and I imagine people would say he’s worth 80m odd. I’d be surprised if he has more goals than Rashford this season, and for sure, Rashford back in form would blow his figures away completely.

To get rid of Rashford, I’d want a mature player who can come in and guarantee 15+ goals in the league alone. Not a prospect who will score 4 goals for the next few seasons. We need goals. I can’t see many players who I would back to do that. Some are old, and not available, like Salah, Son or there is Mbappé, Vini and Leao. Anything else will fall into the Sancho, Antony bracket of signing who might if we are lucky become top players, but often fail and flatter to deceive. We might get industry and running, but we’d get an output that isn’t good enough.

If Garnacho was 22 and looked like he could score near 20 in the league then I’d be all for getting a 6 goal younger winger to develop. But we need one forward in their absolute prime years who can be expected to deliver. And if we feel Rashford is no longer that player, fine, but then at least go and get someone who is.

A very good post and similar to how I feel. If we can get Greenwood back that gives us some leeway. If we could get Leao that would be an upgrade, if we could get someone like Mitoma I'd be okay with it too. But I'm sick and tired of the likes of Sancho and Antony signed from tier 4 leagues.

Selling Rashford gets us a lot of FFP profit, but Garnacho is nowhere near to being a 40 game starter on the LW. We should only sell if we have a good replacement lined up.
 
Sell: Rashford to PSG, Sancho back to Dorttmund, Antony (anywhere even if just on loan with us covering his wages)

Buy: Nico Williams and one of Olise/Neto

Keep: Garnacho and one of Pellistri/Diallo as backup/rotation to Williams and Olise respectively.
 
We may not get a better chance to offload him to be honest. A smart team would play the cards right and get maximum value for him. Plus any money we receive is pure profit and solves our FFP woes. We should find better, more consistent forwards and this sale could help us in achieving it.
 
I didn’t imply it’s been a poor two weeks, he’s been poor this season. I’m not going to entertain last season at all, it’s ridiculous to start trying to analyse it week by week, it’s clear that he had a good season last season and trying to deny that is ridiculous.

And if you want to swap a goalscorer for some pressing then up to you, but that doesn’t cut it for me. The reason why Liverpool’s are challenging is because they have a 30 goal forward, it’s not because they have a 7 goal forward who presses.

As I said, do what you like on the other wing. Get a winger with whatever alternative qualities you want, but leave the goalscoring one where he is. And if you feel that the goalscoring one is jot doing the job of a goalscorer well enough, then replace him if you think you can find someone who can. But replacing your wide man who is supposed to put up top level numbers with a winger who is supposed to ‘play a different way’ sounds cool, but football isn’t played a different way where you aren’t required to score goals. If we are going to score 50 a season as a team we are going nowhere. Hopefully Hojlund can become a 25 league goal striker, but that remains to be seen, and even if he does, you want a secondary goalscorer who is good for 15ish otherwise you can forget about trying to win trophies I’d say.

I’ve said many times but the problem with Rashford is not his profile, the problem is his form. This idea that it’s a problem that his first instinct isn’t to cross the ball is nonsense for me. It wouldn’t be a problem if he was scoring more goals, which he is very capable of. But we don’t need to replace him with David Beckham. We could do that if we had Salah on the other side. As it stands, Rashford is supposed to be our Salah. And if he isn’t good enough at that, then get a new Salah. The only problem is there are very few who could probably do it even as well as Rashford, let alone better. I’m not married to Rashford blindly, I’m saying he won’t be easy to improve upon.

I think every top team tries to have one of those forwards who are powerful, fast, can scare and run past defenders with and without the ball, and score 20+ goals. They usually start from wide. Even with a Harry Kane, Spurs needed a Son because it’s a different type of threat which makes them a different type of threat. Those are some of the rarest and most valuable players around. Every time we play a team in Europe first thing I check is who is that player for them, that we need to be ‘scared’ of. Usually, their version isn’t all that, so the team would need to out play us and gain territorial advantage etc. But on the continent many teams don’t have a forward like that to worry about, only the top ones because those players all rise to the top quickly due to their rarity. Rashford is the best one we can come up with at the moment, and a player capable of being in that group of elite versions of this player.

Not sure what there is to entertain/not entertain regarding last season, but for me it has very little to do with analyzing it week by week and a lot more to do with looking at the bigger picture..Prior to the World Cup he had 4 league goals, roughly a goal every 283mins. After the world cup he entered a 3 month period where he averaged a league goal every 83rd min. In those 830 minutes of Premier League football, 28% of his total minutes in the league, he scored 60% of his league goals. While the remaining goals were spread out over 2060 minutes, averaging a goal every 294 mins.

If you include all matches, he had 3 goals in the Europa League and one in the league up, so a goal every 178 mins before the world cup.

In the 3 month period after the world cup, averaging a goal every 92 mins (every 83rd min in the league). 1563 minutes of football, 17 goals. He scored 56% of his goal in a period that consisted of 36% of the minutes he played...

Followed by a period where he scored a total of 5 goals, 3 in the league (averaging a goal every 300mins or so) , in 1405 minutes.

Not sure why you're so focused on portraying this as goalscoring or not goalscoring. It's not really about swapping a goalscorer for some pressing, it's about the overall effects it has on your team, the overall contributions. Salah doesn't score his goals isolated from the rest of the team and he's also one of the most hard working players in the league, pressing as a collective and forcing mistakes is vital. It's not one or the other. Would Rooney and Ronaldo have been equally brilliant in the 06/07 season if they played with Ruud instead of Saha? You can lose individual contributions and still improve overall as a team. It's fine that his first instinct isn't to cross the ball, but he's 26 and one of the best paid players in the league, he's at a stage where you expect him to have an awareness that results in picking the right options, but more often than not he's playing for himself with his head down, passing is the second option, he lacks maturity.

None of the top teams in England have passengers in their lineups, their squads consists of hard working players. Not sure why anyone would think it's a good idea for us to keep accommodating one. We need Rashford to offer more, he can't keep dodging 50-50 duels and allow the opposition to go up for headers unchallenged, he needs to be a constant pain for the opposition and you very rarely achieve that by consistently going for the low % stuff. I think one follows the other and that you can't underestimate the importance of doing the basic stuff, especially when he's as inconsistent as he is with his goalscoring. I think he would benefit a lot from dropping his shoulders and focusing on the other parts of the game, as he's fairly one dimensional.

Ultimately i don't think it matters, because there's not going to be a single top team willing to pay the wages he's currently on.
 
Selling Rashford would be the stupidest move to make. He’s one of the few players who have top class ability and talents. That fact that we can’t get the most out of him reflects poorly on how the club is run.

If talented employees consistently underperform over a decade it’s an issue of toxic work environment.
 
Rashford himself doesn't even guarantee us 15 league goals (He only managed to score 15+ league goals in 2 seasons out of 7 full seasons).

Replacing Rashford with a mature player who can come in and guarantee 15+ goals in the league alone is considered as huge upgrade, this type of player will want to come in if we are ready to win or challenge the league, are we in that stage?

Replacing Rashford with prospect type of player is still be considered as long term upgrade because it benefits for team that is currently still in the rebuilding/developing stage. Cash in if there is good offer and use the money wisely to rebuild the team for long term alongside Garnacho, Mainoo, and Hojlund.

What Rashford has done in his 7 full seasons is completely irrelevant, as you well know. What does it matter that he didn’t score 15 goals at 18 or 19?

Rashford is obviously a 15 goal forward. By that I mean, a Rashford who does NOT score 15 goals in a season is unanimously considered to have underperformed. That will not be the case for Williams. It won’t be the case for Mitoma. It isn’t the case for Diaz. These players are clearly NOT 15 goal forwards.

Replacing Rashford with a prospect means we have no desire to win anything today, but hope to win something one day. Which is building a team on the never never. Then that prospect himself very possibly becomes that player himself and round and round we go.

To me, it’s simple. If we want a prospect, we need to find a way to get one while Rashford remains. If we feel he needs games, loan him out if we must. That player can develop, but Rashford is a player we are looking to today, not tomorrow. And if we feel that Rashford is not the player for today, then we need to replace him with another player for today. And that’s a very short list.
 
Not sure what there is to entertain/not entertain regarding last season, but for me it has very little to do with analyzing it week by week and a lot more to do with looking at the bigger picture..Prior to the World Cup he had 4 league goals, roughly a goal every 283mins. After the world cup he entered a 3 month period where he averaged a league goal every 83rd min. In those 830 minutes of Premier League football, 28% of his total minutes in the league, he scored 60% of his league goals. While the remaining goals were spread out over 2060 minutes, averaging a goal every 294 mins.

If you include all matches, he had 3 goals in the Europa League and one in the league up, so a goal every 178 mins before the world cup.

In the 3 month period after the world cup, averaging a goal every 92 mins (every 83rd min in the league). 1563 minutes of football, 17 goals. He scored 56% of his goal in a period that consisted of 36% of the minutes he played...

Followed by a period where he scored a total of 5 goals, 3 in the league (averaging a goal every 300mins or so) , in 1405 minutes.

Not sure why you're so focused on portraying this as goalscoring or not goalscoring. It's not really about swapping a goalscorer for some pressing, it's about the overall effects it has on your team, the overall contributions. Salah doesn't score his goals isolated from the rest of the team and he's also one of the most hard working players in the league, pressing as a collective and forcing mistakes is vital. It's not one or the other. Would Rooney and Ronaldo have been equally brilliant in the 06/07 season if they played with Ruud instead of Saha? You can lose individual contributions and still improve overall as a team. It's fine that his first instinct isn't to cross the ball, but he's 26 and one of the best paid players in the league, he's at a stage where you expect him to have an awareness that results in picking the right options, but more often than not he's playing for himself with his head down, passing is the second option, he lacks maturity.

None of the top teams in England have passengers in their lineups, their squads consists of hard working players. Not sure why anyone would think it's a good idea for us to keep accommodating one. We need Rashford to offer more, he can't keep dodging 50-50 duels and allow the opposition to go up for headers unchallenged, he needs to be a constant pain for the opposition and you very rarely achieve that by consistently going for the low % stuff. I think one follows the other and that you can't underestimate the importance of doing the basic stuff, especially when he's as inconsistent as he is with his goalscoring. I think he would benefit a lot from dropping his shoulders and focusing on the other parts of the game, as he's fairly one dimensional.

Ultimately i don't think it matters, because there's not going to be a single top team willing to pay the wages he's currently on.

Quite simply, if a player puts up a 30 goal season, it is ridiculous to begin criticising that they did not score the 30 goals by putting up an equal 3 in 10 consecutive months. People used to do the same thing with Pogba on here. He’s be MOTM but I’s read ‘he was great in the first half, but had a terrible 7 minutes in the second half before he picked it back up. Rashford had a good season last year.

And I’m so focused on portraying it as a goalscoring or not goalscoring issue because scoring goals is important for a football team. And if you don’t have any players who can score them then you won’t go anywhere. Rashford himself has fallen well below his goalscoring expectations this season, and as a result, we find ourselves 6th. I doubt that is due to his tackling stats.

I appreciate that football is a team game. I see scoring 20+ goals as a useful contribution to the team. My memory is a bit hazy, but this Rooney/Ronaldo in 06 you are referencing is a period where we were not being good enough to win the league. Which followed a few RVN years where we were. Now of course, we did later become good enough to win the league (and every other fecking trophy) with Rooney and Ronaldo - but that was because they started scoring 25-30+ goals for us, and not 10.
 
It's hard to argue with selling him if we can get 100M for him, the downside risk is much higher than the upside at this point, it's a ton of money, we still basically need to rebuild most of the squad and Garnacho is one of 4 players (Mainoo, Hojlund, Lisandro) you would expect to be here for the next 5+ years and is probably best off in his same position.

Same logic as selling Bruno if only because Bruno is 30 next season as opposed to 27 like Rashford. I won't be shocked if we sell them both and pocket 150-180M to rebuild like Chelsea have done, even if it means we aren't in the CL for a couple years. That could buy 4 quality players if we identify them right.
I would absolutely love to see that, would mean we are steering the ship in a new and exciting direction, ready to make very difficult but rational decisions immediately. Would come as quite an unexpected but very much welcomed change for the club.
 
The Ross Barkley clip that’s gone viral sums him up. Not interested unless he’s cutting inside and shooting. That’s his game.
 
Selling Rashford would be the stupidest move to make. He’s one of the few players who have top class ability and talents. That fact that we can’t get the most out of him reflects poorly on how the club is run.

If talented employees consistently underperform over a decade it’s an issue of toxic work environment.
Ya it’s the clubs fault he stinks the place out week after week . See Ross Barkley clip.
 
Watching Barkley walk round Rashford was very distressing, he never even tried to take the ball off him. Has he down tools for the club or just Ten Hag? What Rashford did was Undefensible and sad as it is looks like he has to move on not just for the club but for himself to have a new challenge.
Personally I don’t think he wants to play under our manager anymore. You just know if/when he leaves he’s going to smash it at his new club. :(
 
What Rashford has done in his 7 full seasons is completely irrelevant, as you well know. What does it matter that he didn’t score 15 goals at 18 or 19?

Rashford is obviously a 15 goal forward. By that I mean, a Rashford who does NOT score 15 goals in a season is unanimously considered to have underperformed. That will not be the case for Williams. It won’t be the case for Mitoma. It isn’t the case for Diaz. These players are clearly NOT 15 goal forwards.

What Rashford done in his full 7 full seasons and whether he score 15+ League goals, both matter for your argument because you called him 15+ league goals forwards. Can’t call 15 league goals forwards if he only done it in 2 full seasons out of his 7 full seasons.

I don’t believe we have the squad that is good enough or anywhere near to challenge and win the league competing with man city, hence why we should be going the route of signing prospect players like Hojlund to build the team alongside Mainoo, Hojlund and Garnacho. But if you are insisting we have the squad or we are closer to the level of competing with Man City, hence why you wanted Rashford not to be replaced by prospect player then you really surprised me with that opinion of yours.

Although, Mitoma wouldn’t be my ''prospect'' option to replace Rashford because he's 26 years and is not considered as prospect player that can be built alongside Mainoo, Hojlund and Garnacho.

Replacing Rashford with a prospect means we have no desire to win anything today, but hope to win something one day. Which is building a team on the never never. Then that prospect himself very possibly becomes that player himself and round and round we go.

To me, it’s simple. If we want a prospect, we need to find a way to get one while Rashford remains. If we feel he needs games, loan him out if we must. That player can develop, but Rashford is a player we are looking to today, not tomorrow. And if we feel that Rashford is not the player for today, then we need to replace him with another player for today. And that’s a very short list.

We tried signing all of these ''matured'' players like Pogba, Matic, Sanchez, Casemiro, Varane, and etc, while keeping the players with high wages who had been underperforming for so many seasons and we are still not winning. What you think is simple clearly has been the way how this club operated and didn't give us the outcome of winning.

We invested on prospect like Hojlund, suddenly now the investment is worthy and we have a striker for our rebuilding project. We are not going to compete with City next season by having Rashford in the team anyway, so why should we reject good offer when we can use the transfer fees and his high wages to invest for our rebuilding project and try to do different approach like investing on prospect like Hojlund rather than keep doing the Ed Woodward's way?
 
He is made for PSG.


:lol::lol:

Can just laugh at this point. No point getting angry / upset / pissed off because he'll still have a career here at Man United come next week, the month after and maybe even next year.

How Martial and this guy is still at United I will never understand.
 
Rashford has had some awful efforts in the past few years but that clip is so out of context it’s untrue.
 
Watching Barkley walk round Rashford was very distressing, he never even tried to take the ball off him. Has he down tools for the club or just Ten Hag? What Rashford did was Undefensible and sad as it is looks like he has to move on not just for the club but for himself to have a new challenge.
Personally I don’t think he wants to play under our manager anymore. You just know if/when he leaves he’s going to smash it at his new club. :(
There is no one or the other. If he’s downing tools for the manager, he’s down tools for his teammates, fans and club as well.

I’ve been absolutely convinced for a while now that he’s been consciously downing tools. Absolutely shameful for a professional footballer to be accused of that but you could pull together a 20 minute highlight reel of him this season alone of him not bothering to try or track his runner.

I actually thought he played ok on Sunday but every pro will tell you, you go from the first minute to the last and that clip of Barkley is fecking astounding to not even bother.

He seems like a pretty level headed guy too, how can he watch this stuff back and not been completely embarrassed by his ‘effort’?
 
I am 100% sure he's fallen out with everyone - bar maybe Varane.

Anyone going to Old Trafford at the weekend, watch the warm-up. Every game lately he comes out by himself, jogs around by himself - all while the other players are in little groups passing the ball around etc. He's a very isolated figure by seems.
 
I am 100% sure he's fallen out with everyone - bar maybe Varane.

Anyone going to Old Trafford at the weekend, watch the warm-up. Every game lately he comes out by himself, jogs around by himself - all while the other players are in little groups passing the ball around etc. He's a very isolated figure by seems.
He probably is missing his mate Sancho, ship them both together to PSG.
 
What Rashford done in his full 7 full seasons and whether he score 15+ League goals, both matter for your argument because you called him 15+ league goals forwards. Can’t call 15 league goals forwards if he only done it in 2 full seasons out of his 7 full seasons.

I don’t believe we have the squad that is good enough or anywhere near to challenge and win the league competing with man city, hence why we should be going the route of signing prospect players like Hojlund to build the team alongside Mainoo, Hojlund and Garnacho. But if you are insisting we have the squad or we are closer to the level of competing with Man City, hence why you wanted Rashford not to be replaced by prospect player then you really surprised me with that opinion of yours.

Although, Mitoma wouldn’t be my ''prospect'' option to replace Rashford because he's 26 years and is not considered as prospect player that can be built alongside Mainoo, Hojlund and Garnacho.



We tried signing all of these ''matured'' players like Pogba, Matic, Sanchez, Casemiro, Varane, and etc, while keeping the players with high wages who had been underperforming for so many seasons and we are still not winning. What you think is simple clearly has been the way how this club operated and didn't give us the outcome of winning.

We invested on prospect like Hojlund, suddenly now the investment is worthy and we have a striker for our rebuilding project. We are not going to compete with City next season by having Rashford in the team anyway, so why should we reject good offer when we can use the transfer fees and his high wages to invest for our rebuilding project and try to do different approach like investing on prospect like Hojlund rather than keep doing the Ed Woodward's way?

What a 26 year old player didn’t do at 19 is not relevant at all in discussing his current capabilities.

And why are we simply not going to compete with City (or Arsenal or Liverpool, people really need to stop talking as if City are the only team fighting for the title) next season? I mean, of course we won’t compete with them if we have a 6 goal forward. And yes, we signed a prospect in Hojlund, and he didn’t score a goal for an entire half season and currently, we are away from our goals. Also, a large part of the reason why we would have signed Hojlund is because we would have seen that we have a 25 year old winger who scored 30. That gives a bit of room to develop a striker.

As I said, Rashford is a 15 goal forward because a Rashford who does not score 15 goals is considered to have underperformed that season. A Mitoma, Neto, Olise, Garnacho can score 7 goals and be heralded for their form. Rashford can’t. So again, as I said - IF you decide that Rashford can’t be relied upon to get 15+ league goals in a season - then go and sign a different player who you think can. Just don’t go and replace him with a player who scores 7 in what is considered a good season.
 
Rashford has had some awful efforts in the past few years but that clip is so out of context it’s untrue.

Put context on it then.

My view of it is that he let a very dangerous player stroll by in a dangerous area of the pitch with 3 mins to go when only 1 goal ahead and Luton had their tails up for the big finish. Unacceptable as far as I'm concerned
 
Noticed it live.
not ashamed to admit I’ve hammered him. Must be said though that his second half was probably the best 45 mins he’s played in a long time. It had to be. His first half was dire (again)
He was at least building up a bit of credit in that second half …and then he went and did this. Shocking. Absolutely diabolical from him
 
Rashford has had some awful efforts in the past few years but that clip is so out of context it’s untrue.

Haha, good one. Please explain the bit we are missing and add the context in future....

I am 100% sure he's fallen out with everyone - bar maybe Varane.

Anyone going to Old Trafford at the weekend, watch the warm-up. Every game lately he comes out by himself, jogs around by himself - all while the other players are in little groups passing the ball around etc. He's a very isolated figure by seems.

Hardly surprising, he isn't a team player is he.
 
Rashford has had some awful efforts in the past few years but that clip is so out of context it’s untrue.
How is it out of context? He was moved centrally with the late subs. He’s directly in front of Barkley (their most dangerous player btw) who literally just ambles around him.

its the final stages of the game, with a narrow lead and Luton we’re throwing everything they had at us.

I’m not sure what context you can give to defend that.
 
That Barkley clip, was that super late in the game or had he just taken a knock?

Seems utterly bizarre otherwise.

It was late in the game and just after he’d switched to CF. I think he didn’t want to drop back too far to try and keep the shape, and left him once he saw Garnacho coming over to cover (his defensive instincts are definitely not a strong point and he’d no doubt have been knackered at this stage as it was shortly after he’d made a flat out 3/4 of the pitch sprint to create an overlap which should have led to us putting the game to bed if he’d been supplied!). Certainly not the major issue it’s been made into but it is definitely something I’d expect to have been covered with him in a feedback session this week as to why it was the wrong call.
 
He did the exact same against City in the last few minutes of the FA cup final, he didn't bother challenging for a ball in the middle of the pitch. That was the moment I realised that he doesn't actually care if United win or not.
If he can't be bothered in the last few minutes of an FA cup final against city rivals then what chance is there of him caring in a league game away to Luton.

He's clearly got more talent than probably all of our forward players but his attitude can be disgusting at times
 
I wouldn't be upset remotely if we moved him on.

Kvara - Hojlund - Garnacho