Marcus Rashford (Out) | Ornstein: United want to keep, will only consider substantial bids

JaffyJoe said:
There is a clear correlation of players coming here and not fulfilling their potential. Who is the last player who left this club with their reputation and standing bigger than when they arrived?

A combination of playing him injured which has taken away from his ability, not developing him well enough (Think he should have been a 9), different managers, different styles. Circus at the club. He is not devoid of blame because a player of his talent should be doing better but this is the story of everyone who has come here in the last few years. Its a bad environment for players.
Click to expand...

a 9 who won’t tackle, press or head the ball? The invisible 9. We’ve tried him there too occasionally and he’s terrible
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
That's irrelevant but to answer your question, not many. I also don't think many players should be leaving this club when their reputation and standing has grown as we should look to keep them so it's fairly moot.

I assume you are talking about the commercially focused environment we have forcing players to lose concentration on the football, the player still has a choice. He has failed the club far more than we have failed him in my opinion.
Click to expand...

How's that irrelevant? My point is that acting like this is all on Rashford and the environment he is doesn't play a part wouldn't be fair, the proof is there.

Not just that, the whole setup, it is well documented to be amateurish, beneath the standards of a club of this size, also allows for player power. It is all conducive to players not fairing well here, it does not absolve them of any blame but it paints a full picture. My takeaway is he comes up at any other top 6 club he ends up a better player than he is now. He was really good for England up until recently. No excuses at all for how bad he has been, last year he scored 30 all comps and has had a couple other 20 plus seasons for us, there is clearly a player there os the fcat we havent got that more regularly is damning on us too as well as him.
 
Ali Dia said:
a 9 who won’t tackle, press or head the ball? The invisible 9. We’ve tried him there too occasionally and he’s terrible
Click to expand...

I mean he is the player he is now, when I talk development I meant more in his younger years.
 
JaffyJoe said:
How's that irrelevant? My point is that acting like this is all on Rashford and the environment he is doesn't play a part wouldn't be fair, the proof is there.

Not just that, the whole setup, it is well documented to be amateurish, beneath the standards of a club of this size, also allows for player power. It is all conducive to players not fairing well here, it does not absolve them of any blame but it paints a full picture. My takeaway is he comes up at any other top 6 club he ends up a better player than he is now. He was really good for England up until recently. No excuses at all for how bad he has been, last year he scored 30 all comps and has had a couple other 20 plus seasons for us, there is clearly a player there os the fcat we havent got that more regularly is damning on us too as well as him.
Click to expand...

For me it's irrelevant to say what other players have/ haven't done as a bearing on what happened to Marcus as if there is one case then it suggests it's possible, for which there will be one. I agree the club could have done more and done better 100%, perhaps it was the initial wording I took issue with, we promoted him paid him 300k a week and gave him superstar status and typically he pays that back with lack of work, going out clubbing and appearing quite unprofessional at points which is why I think he has failed the club.

We definitely could have done more for him as we also seem to bow to his notoriety and seemingly can't drop him or criticise him due to the size of his brand and the power of the PR around him, I'm not even referring to how bad he has been but I just want to see more from the person. Let me float a scenario: He has the same season this year in terms of output but he is the consumate professional, regularly states he is working harder and the manager attests he is in earlier, stays later and on the field we see a man giving everything with his defensive work, willingness to pass (Not always the cut in shoot) and contesting for every ball: That's a player I am fully behind and will support so for me I wouldn't look at it as he didn't score enough, he's failed us, I look at it as his effort/ professionalism and desire can be questioned very easily with the optics test and that's a foundational thing to make sure you have, it should be a pre-requisite, like us paying his salary or giving him somewhere to train.

To simplify it as I have a tendancy to waffle:

Player requirements
Level 1: Give everything and be professional but awful output
Level 2: Not professional or giving everything but have a great output
Level 3: Give everything, be professional, great output

Club requirements
Level 1: Pay Salary
Level 2: Give Coaching, tactics, ample opportunity
Level 3: Top quality environment, top quality coaches and superb tactical advise with discipline in the hard times

My feeling is we as a club are giving him level 1 & 2, he isn't giving level 1 so I had the wording of "We failed him", we could have done better for him but I think he's failed us..
 
JaffyJoe said:
How's that irrelevant? My point is that acting like this is all on Rashford and the environment he is doesn't play a part wouldn't be fair, the proof is there.

Not just that, the whole setup, it is well documented to be amateurish, beneath the standards of a club of this size, also allows for player power. It is all conducive to players not fairing well here, it does not absolve them of any blame but it paints a full picture. My takeaway is he comes up at any other top 6 club he ends up a better player than he is now. He was really good for England up until recently. No excuses at all for how bad he has been, last year he scored 30 all comps and has had a couple other 20 plus seasons for us, there is clearly a player there os the fcat we havent got that more regularly is damning on us too as well as him.
Click to expand...
The never ending list of excuses. its like his best ever season wasnt last year, not 5 years ago. Whats changed? The ball isnt flying in the net for him now so turned into a 15 year old girl trying to deal with it
 
With Arsenal signing Sesko, surely that puts to bed the whole idea of them taking Marcus off our books? Who else would be interested and could afford him then? PSG, we are calling for you.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
For me it's irrelevant to say what other players have/ haven't done as a bearing on what happened to Marcus as if there is one case then it suggests it's possible, for which there will be one. I agree the club could have done more and done better 100%, perhaps it was the initial wording I took issue with, we promoted him paid him 300k a week and gave him superstar status and typically he pays that back with lack of work, going out clubbing and appearing quite unprofessional at points which is why I think he has failed the club.

We definitely could have done more for him as we also seem to bow to his notoriety and seemingly can't drop him or criticise him due to the size of his brand and the power of the PR around him, I'm not even referring to how bad he has been but I just want to see more from the person. Let me float a scenario: He has the same season this year in terms of output but he is the consumate professional, regularly states he is working harder and the manager attests he is in earlier, stays later and on the field we see a man giving everything with his defensive work, willingness to pass (Not always the cut in shoot) and contesting for every ball: That's a player I am fully behind and will support so for me I wouldn't look at it as he didn't score enough, he's failed us, I look at it as his effort/ professionalism and desire can be questioned very easily with the optics test and that's a foundational thing to make sure you have, it should be a pre-requisite, like us paying his salary or giving him somewhere to train.

To simplify it as I have a tendancy to waffle:

Player requirements
Level 1: Give everything and be professional but awful output
Level 2: Not professional or giving everything but have a great output
Level 3: Give everything, be professional, great output

Club requirements
Level 1: Pay Salary
Level 2: Give Coaching, tactics, ample opportunity
Level 3: Top quality environment, top quality coaches and superb tactical advise with discipline in the hard times

My feeling is we as a club are giving him level 1 & 2, he isn't giving level 1 so I had the wording of "We failed him", we could have done better for him but I think he's failed us..
Click to expand...

You make some valid points which I will try and address, apologies if I don't catch them all. I don't think a pattern is irrelevant, because it speaks to a bigger issue than it simply being Rashford, it has happened so often that I believe more of the onus ( this will include the things we don't see) is on the club. What I mean is that the talented players who have failed here I am confident that you put them at other top 6 clubs and their careers don't turn out the way they did here: Martial, Pogba, Di Maria, Sancho etc I wouldn't even necessarily include Marcus in that group: he is 26, has over 130 goals for the club, has won trophies and is one year removed from a 30 goal season.

He has played injured for managers which has probably been to his own detriment so to simply say he doesn't care would be misguided. Instead I would ask what about the environment he is in leads a player who loves the club, came through the academy to have a season like he has had (in fact I'd say 2 of the last 3 seasons fit this bill) this idea (not saying that is what you're saying) that because they are paid loads they should and will automatically perform has been proven time and time again to be untrue. it's all about environment and the platform (not just getting on the pitch) a player is given. I don't think application is a given if an individual is unhappy, unsettled etc. The fact he is paid millions won't change that.

I 100% agree he needs to apply himself more, the player I watch now has lost the one on one ability to beat players, isn't as quick (guys who start in their teen years tend to decline speed wise by mid 20's so not trying to read too much into this) and has lost that habit he had last season of switching things up by going inside and outside. He has obviously suffered from not playing with Shaw or even a Malacia but that application has not been there, are we saying we think it will never return? I think at this point the fanbase doesn't care, I would say his 30 goal season wasn't celebrated while his 8 goal season is vilified. I think there is nothing he can do anymore to endear himself to the fanbase and it's best for all involved that he moves on but i feel he will go on and do well elsewhere and a player with his quality is worth 100 million on the market and where we have such a lack of attacking talent I am remiss to lose him.

Agree on a high level with your requirements I would say the club are at level 1 and I would say Rash is at whatever level is below one. Both things can change.
 
clarkydaz said:
The never ending list of excuses. its like his best ever season wasnt last year, not 5 years ago. Whats changed? The ball isnt flying in the net for him now so turned into a 15 year old girl trying to deal with it
Click to expand...

I don't know what has changed, that is my point. The shirt at Manchester United is heavy and even moreso when we aren't doing well, it's not an environment conducive to success. Why are players just expected to "rise above it" he has nor covered himself in any glory this season and think he should be sold, but our fans really struggle to acknowledge this.

Everyone immediately goes to the worst but my actual issue is we pick and choose who we do that for as fans. If it's a player you like, you will find every reason to explain and will talk about being patient because we have seen what they can do etc. and when it is a player we don't like it's "Get rid, never rated him etc." That is fine we all have our conscious and unconscious biases. What I still struggle to understand is when the fanbase decided they didn't like him.
 
daba said:
Really feels like he either got complacent or distracted (or both) and never truly pushed himself into that world-class gear for more than the odd purple patch.

Tough one but if we get a tasty offer of say £80m it would be a risk worth taking for me.
Click to expand...
At the present moment no club other than the Saudis are going to pay 80m for Rashford. He has not been good enough to earn a place on a top team this season and teams are not going to pay 80 based on last season. I do feel that a move to a different club might give him the kick start he so obviously needs
 
If he leaves and we don't replace him adequately then yes it would be a true statement of intent
 
Get rid. Either you are a great player like Messi which can excuse the unwillingness to track back and put in a shift or you play as your manager asks you to play. Players like him, Lingard (while not on the same talent level) get a lot of rope due to United born and bred nonsense.

Coasting through the seasons with minimal progress and advancements in his game. If he gets no chances to run behind the defense, he is mostly sticking up front and being indecisive in his passing. Will only lose his great gift of pace as he grows older. Best opportunity to sell if he wants to leave.
 
If he leaves, I would want us to go in for Cole Palmer

He’s a red and Chelsea need money. Itll have to be our record signing but it can be done
 
LawCharltonBest said:
If he leaves, I would want us to go in for Cole Palmer

He’s a red and Chelsea need money. Itll have to be our record signing but it can be done
Click to expand...

He's the absolute last player they'd get rid of. Aside from him being their only standout player last season, recent signings generate the least FFP room to sell.
 
Berbaclass said:
On current form if we started the season with Garnacho LW and Amad RW I think we'd be better off.
Click to expand...

Rashford hits hot and cold but will need to be replaced. His goals had made the difference between CL qualification or not. Garnacho and Amad are nowhere near to Rashy, not yet anyway.
 
afrocentricity said:
What intent? If he leaves it will be because he wants to
Click to expand...

Yes of course the player also plays a role to this since we cannot force anyone to leave, and this logic applies to any players.

Unless you are trying to compare Rashford with Ronaldo to RM situation?
 
devilish said:
Rashford hits hot and cold but will need to be replaced. His goals had made the difference between CL qualification or not. Garnacho and Amad are nowhere near to Rashy, not yet anyway.
Click to expand...
I'd argue that the games he played in and produced nothing and arguably lessened our performances if you replace him with a better fit for the team you'd easily make up the few goals he produced.
 
Berbaclass said:
I'd argue that the games he played in and produced nothing and arguably lessened our performances if you replace him with a better fit for the team you'd easily make up the few goals he produced.
Click to expand...

Last season he was shit while the season before he was magnificent. I repeat, I do not mind Rashford to go and if PSG is willing to give us 100m for him then I'll drive him myself however he'll have to be replaced. Our forward line is not good enough for top 4
 
You get the feeling if this was truly on then stuff would happening right now since he’s not at the Euros and the start of pre-season training for United is under two weeks away now, but who knows.

I’m also down for selling him providing he’s adequately replaced. I don’t want a repeat of 15 years ago where we’re replacing Ronaldo with fecking Gabriel Obertan.
 
Only makes sense if we can get someone like Williams to replace him. Like it or not, there's not many out there that are worthy replacements and available.
 
What’s the highest fee we ever received for an academy graduate? Beckham 21 years ago?

I’m all for it, Rashford should be all for it as well, and even PSG should be all for it, no reason he can’t do well there.

LawCharltonBest said:
If he leaves, I would want us to go in for Cole Palmer

He’s a red and Chelsea need money. Itll have to be our record signing but it can be done
Click to expand...
When was the last time a “record signing” worked out for us? Rio Ferdinand or Berbatov?
These over 100m transfers have a pretty terrible success record, overall, not just for United.
Honestly, why would Chelsea sell their best player? Let alone to a league rival.
They have enough mediocre underperforming players they can sell, they’ve always been decent at selling players.
 
devilish said:
Last season he was shit while the season before he was magnificent. I repeat, I do not mind Rashford to go and if PSG is willing to give us 100m for him then I'll drive him myself however he'll have to be replaced. Our forward line is not good enough for top 4
Click to expand...

I agree all current players included, United have the worst set of forward and wide players in the top 6. Proven both statistically and the cohesion they have with the center forward, it's a abysmal and the dysfunctional midfield last season has taken away some of the emphasis on the wide forward areas needing additions.

Irrespective of Rashford leaving the team needs a winger and a striker at minimum.

Rashford leaving compounds that issue even further.

Erik ten Hag will fail again next season in the league if the teams outlet is between Garnacho, Amad and Anthony.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
If he leaves, I would want us to go in for Cole Palmer

He’s a red and Chelsea need money. Itll have to be our record signing but it can be done
Click to expand...

I would have no problem spending 100m or more on Palmer, as he's one of the best right wingers in the league and someone who could be our starting RCM as well in the future, with his passing range and passing capabilities, and could sort of be a Bruno replacement as well if we are planning ahead 3+ years into the future: Mainoo LCM, Palmer RCM, with a Rice/Rodri type #6 behind them...

...but there's absolutely no way Chelsea will sell him, and Palmer likely won't even ask to leave despite growing up as a United fan.
 
I want Vini Jr if Rashford goes. Let's do things in the market other teams can dream of.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Won’t happen but I am interested to know what the price tag is. If they gave us 80m I’d bite their hand off.
Click to expand...

60m + ugarte would be great. It would allow us to bring Braithwaite and then focus the rest of the budget (+sales) on a LB, RW, Stk, Rb (if AWB is sold), CB (if Lindelof/Maguire is sold)
 
Shane88 said:
We'd probably do a straight swap for Ugarte given our negotiating history.
Click to expand...

If a swap deal involving players was actually an option, I'd take Ugarte and then one of Lee Kang-in or Kolo Muani. I'd mention Xavi Simons but I don't think they'd be willing to throw him into a deal.

Overall, as unspectacular as this reads, I still think it'd be better business than keeping Rashford and his colossal salary.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.