Marco Reus

[Blackwidow]

United and Bayern are two sides of the same coin. The only difference is that the sugar daddies decided to invest in two PL clubs rather than German clubs which spread out the wealth and talent in the PL whereas Bayern have no equal in Germany. Dortmund are not on Bayern's level in terms of squad (except in recent seasons), stature, fan base, finance, expectations, etc. At Bayern, Bundesliga and CL titles are expected and required and they'll do whatever they can do achieve that, even at the expense of Dortmund or any German club with talented players. It's just a microcosm of life, the big fish will always eat the little fish.

You do know that Dortmund has double as much players they bought from other Bundesliga clubs than Bayern has, or?

If you talk about clubs whose success is based on the talent that other German clubs developed you should first look into the Dortmund team.

Bayerns spine of the recent 4 or 5 years - the players that have been consistent in the starting line up were Robben (from Real), Ribery (from Marseille), Lahm, Schweinsteiger and Müller (own youth). And they together with Neuer (yes, he is from Schalke) are the faces for the success. (I do not forget the other ones - but in the last four to five years they were the constants and standouts).

Dortmund never was on Bayern's level in terms of squad but has a system in which the individual quality is less important on a lot of the position or equalled with workrate.

There are rules on the market - they are there for every club. Players try to climp up the ladder and the most important factors in there are money, trophies and prestige of the club - plus the position I will have in that club and the development I can make. And teams try to get the best available players (prize, quality, match to the system, club and dressing room, development, personality...). The smaller clubs in the league take of the leagues of the second league or players that did not make it in the middle clubs, the middle clubs go to the small ones...

Let's face it like this - if there would be that talented youth player at Chelsea with a cheap release clause that would like to go to United you would think it is a steal. Same with the top striker that you can get because the contract runs out. You would think that United is smart - and you would say that Chelsea was stupid... (you can change the name of the clubs - it would be the same) - Why is it different when it is Bayern and Dortmund... Why isn't it smart and stupid but evil and saint then...

 

[ArseHat]

You do know that Dortmund has double as much players they bought from other Bundesliga clubs than Bayern has, or?

If you talk about clubs whose success is based on the talent that other German clubs developed you should first look into the Dortmund team.

Bayerns spine of the recent 4 or 5 years - the players that have been consistent in the starting line up were Robben (from Real), Ribery (from Marseille), Lahm, Schweinsteiger and Müller (own youth). And they together with Neuer (yes, he is from Schalke) are the faces for the success. (I do not forget the other ones - but in the last four to five years they were the constants and standouts).

Dortmund never was on Bayern's level in terms of squad but has a system in which the individual quality is less important on a lot of the position or equalled with workrate.

There are rules on the market - they are there for every club. Players try to climp up the ladder and the most important factors in there are money, trophies and prestige of the club - plus the position I will have in that club and the development I can make. And teams try to get the best available players (prize, quality, match to the system, club and dressing room, development, personality...). The smaller clubs in the league take of the leagues of the second league or players that did not make it in the middle clubs, the middle clubs go to the small ones...

Let's face it like this - if there would be that talented youth player at Chelsea with a cheap release clause that would like to go to United you would think it is a steal. Same with the top striker that you can get because the contract runs out. You would think that United is smart - and you would say that Chelsea was stupid... (you can change the name of the clubs - it would be the same) - Why is it different when it is Bayern and Dortmund... Why isn't it smart and stupid but evil and saint then...

Huh? My post was in response to a poster saying that they feel it's wrong that Bayern are poaching Dortmund's star players and compared it to murdering a family member. Perhaps you misinterpreted my post because I was actually defending Bayern and saying that there was nothing wrong with them signing top talent regardless of the team they are buying from.

So your post is essentially what I posted. I have no problem with teams doing whatever they can to improve their team within the guidelines. As I said, Bayern (and Barca, Madrid, United, etc.) are at the top of the food chain in the football club hierarchy and they will be able to get any player they want which is perfectly fine.

 

[legball]

I hate it when United fans always try to take a moral high ground when it comes to other clubs affairs. There is nothing wrong with Reus joining Bayern. I don't know why Bayern shouldn't sign good players, just to make the German league more competitive and become moral lords in the eyes of United fans. They are a big club who worked hard to be where they are right now, the other clubs must do the same to keep up. Simple.

 

[2 man midfield]

They are a big club who worked hard to be where they are right now, the other clubs must do the same to keep up. Simple.

...and as soon as they get too close for comfort have their best players seduced and defected quicker than you can say 'Auf Wiedersehen'.

 

[adexkola]

I hate it when United fans always try to take a moral high ground when it comes to other clubs affairs. There is nothing wrong with Reus joining Bayern. I don't know why Bayern shouldn't sign good players, just to make the German league more competitive and become moral lords in the eyes of United fans. They are a big club who worked hard to be where they are right now, the other clubs must do the same to keep up. Simple.

It's horrible from a neutral perspective. What chance does a club have of breaking into the elite if the established clubs can just swoop in and poach talent? And yes, this applies all the way down. But let's reserve all the animosity for the sugar daddy clubs; they didn't "earn" it

 

[Balu]

It's horrible from a neutral perspective.

The same 'neutral' United fans would have given a shit about Dortmund or the Bundesliga, if Klopp became the new manager last summer and brought Reus and Hummels with them. The redcafe is full of hypocrites of the highest order when it comes to transfers. Whatever the big clubs in Europe do regarding transfers is evil in some way, whatever United does is deserved because of their proud history. The number of United fans who constantly take the moral highground is ridiculous.

 

[2 man midfield]

The same 'neutral' United fans would have given a shit about Dortmund or the Bundesliga, if Klopp became the new manager last summer and brought Reus and Hummels with them. The redcafe is full of hypocrites of the highest order when it comes to transfers. Whatever the big clubs in Europe do regarding transfers is evil in some way, whatever United does is deserved because of their proud history. The number of United fans who constantly take the moral highground is ridiculous.

Can't say i've seen anyone saying we're entitled to sign players based just on our history. Think peoples main issue is the monopoly going on in Germany, as opposed to buying players from the same league. The margins are a lot smaller in the PL. You can sign Lewandowski/Goetze and severely weaken your direct title rival. The equivalent over here would be us nabbing Silva and Aguero*. It's a rich get richer scenario. No hypocrisy found in that at all i don't think.

*To flatter us hugely. Think 18 months back.

 

[Piratesoup]

The same 'neutral' United fans would have given a shit about Dortmund or the Bundesliga, if Klopp became the new manager last summer and brought Reus and Hummels with them. The redcafe is full of hypocrites of the highest order when it comes to transfers.

Thing is that Dortmund, though likeable, isn't really a long term threat to the established footballing elite YET but Bayern is an old rival and powerhouse. So while most United fans have no problem whatsoever in posting dream XIs with 3 Dortmund players in them (I remember some last year with Gündogan, Reus and Hummels in their dream squad), it's a horrible thing for them to see Bayern poach those players because they want the "troublemaker" to stick around, make it harder for Bayern, entertain the United fans and maybe sell them a player or two.

@2 Man Midfield: If Silva and Agüero had release clauses or wouldn't renew their contracts specifically to sign for you, would you turn it down so you don't ruin a competitor?

 

[2 man midfield]

Thing is that Dortmund, though likeable, isn't really a long term threat to the established footballing elite YET but Bayern is an old rival and powerhouse. So while most United fans have no problem whatsoever in posting dream XIs with 3 Dortmund players in them (I remember some last year with Gündogan, Reus and Hummels in their dream squad), it's a horrible thing for them to see Bayern poach those players because they want the "troublemaker" to stick around, make it harder for Bayern, entertain the United fans and maybe sell them a player or two.

@2 Man Midfield: If Silva and Agüero had release clauses or wouldn't renew their contracts specifically to sign for you, would you turn it down so you don't ruin a competitor?

Of course not, i'm not saying it's Bayerns fault. i'm also not saying you do it purely to weaken domestic rivals either, see Javi Martinez. It's the circumstance i think irks people, not Bayern doing what's best for them.

 

[Balu]

Can't say i've seen anyone saying we're entitled to sign players based just on our history. Think peoples main issue is the monopoly going on in Germany, as opposed to buying players from the same league. The margins are a lot smaller in the PL. You can sign Lewandowski/Goetze and severely weaken your direct title rival. The equivalent over here would be us nabbing Silva and Aguero*. It's a rich get richer scenario. No hypocrisy found in that at all i don't think.

The hypocrisy is that United fans believe it's all great if Premier League clubs hurt the competitiveness in the Bundesliga, but it's not right if Bayern strengthen themselves through signings from within the league. I've said it before, no one gave a shit about Bremen losing Diego to Juve, Özil to Real and Mertesacker to Arsenal, even though it completely destroyed their successful spine and they never recovered. If Bayern signed those 3 players, it would be another example for 'destroying a rival'. If that's not hypocrisy then I don't know what.

 

[Piratesoup]

Of course not, i'm not saying it's Bayerns fault. i'm also not saying you do it purely to weaken domestic rivals either, see Javi Martinez. It's the circumstance i think irks people, not Bayern doing what's best for them.

Then people should start getting mad about the other german club's bosses for making it so easy for their players to just pack up and leave. Yet I haven't seen a discussion on here about how mismanagement and mistakes by german clubs sans Bayern weaken the competition.

 

[2 man midfield]

The hypocrisy is that United fans believe it's all great if Premier League clubs hurt the competitiveness in the Bundesliga, but it's not right if Bayern strengthen themselves through signings from within the league. I've said it before, no one gave a shit about Bremen losing Diego to Juve, Özil to Real and Mertesacker to Arsenal, even though it completely destroyed their successful spine and they never recovered. If Bayern signed those 3 players, it would be another example for 'destroying a rival'. If that's not hypocrisy then I don't know what.

Again, maybe it's to do with the circumstance in that particular league. 1 elite club and 19 selling clubs. Regardless of who the selling clubs sell to.

 

[2 man midfield]

Then people should start getting mad about the other german club's bosses for making it so easy for their players to just pack up and leave. Yet I haven't seen a discussion on here about how mismanagement and mistakes by german clubs sans Bayern weaken the competition.

That's partly the point i've been making anyway. As i just said, only one club in the Bundesliga is not a selling club. Bayern is up there with Real and Barca. The others just don't have that. It's always going to be difficult for the chasing pack. Is that Bayerns fault? Of course not. They just do what they can to ensure the Bundesliga stays in Munchen for another year.

 

[Balu]

Again, maybe it's to do with the circumstance in that particular league. 1 elite club and 19 selling clubs. Regardless of who the selling clubs sell to.

But no one talks about the problems of a 2nd German club failing to establish themselves as a longterm European top club, everyone talks about Bayern picking up all the talents within the league with ease and destroying their league rivals on the way. Or are you really telling me that wasn't what you tried to say with the following comment?

...and as soon as they get too close for comfort have their best players seduced and defected quicker than you can say 'Auf Wiedersehen'.

Dortmund weren't too close for comfort when we signed their players. We striked back without signing any of their players and won the treble, while Real and United took their top players in their league winning seasons. That's what actually happened. Hypocrisy at its best.

 

[2 man midfield]

But no one talks about the problems of a 2nd German club failing to establish themselves as a longterm European top club, everyone talks about Bayern picking up all the talents within the league with ease and destroying their league rivals on the way. Or are you really telling me that wasn't what you tried to say with the following comment?

Dortmund weren't too close for comfort when we signed their players. We striked back without signing any of their players and won the treble, while Real and United took their top players in their league winning seasons. That's what actually happened. Hypocrisy at its best.

It's a bit of both. Of course it's up to the chasing clubs to establish themselves. Of course you can't blame Bayern for nabbing the best players around, whoever they play for. Of course you can't blame the players for wanting to make the step up. But at the same time, it is a vicious cycle. How are the chasing clubs meant to compete? Not just with Bayern, not just on the field. Release clauses are a pain in the ass for clubs like Bilbao, Dortmund etc. But how do they compete when the players up sticks after making a name for themselves? How can they expect to hold onto the likes of Lewandowski when he's being offered 5 times his salary by clubs across the continent? I'm not claiming to know the answer either, otherwise these clubs would have done it by now.

 

[Balu]

But at the same time, it is a vicious cycle. How are the chasing clubs meant to compete? Not just with Bayern, not just on the field. Release clauses are a pain in the ass for clubs like Bilbao, Dortmund etc. But how do they compete when the players up sticks after making a name for themselves? I'm not claiming to know the answer either, otherwise these clubs would have done it by now.

It just takes time. People expect everything over night these days. If FFP really minimises the impact of sugardaddies, the number of clubs who can actually steal the best players of up and coming clubs gets smaller. But it takes more than just one or two surprising title wins for a club like Dortmund to establish themselves, it probably takes a decade of continued great work and at least one complete rebuild of a great team.

Football was always about cycles, about building teams over half a decade, then earning the rewards for a few years of peak performances and then start all over again. Even the clubs with endless money need time to build and usually don't achieve anything great if they just buy and buy and buy, the Premier League as a whole is actually a pretty good example for significant underachievement in relation to money spent in the past 3-4 years and that financial superiority doesn't lead to continued dominance. It would be perfectly normal if Dortmund dropped a level for 2 or 3 years. What's important is that they stay in the top four and at a level where they can use the foundation they laid in the past 5 years to push on again at one point and as long as Wolfsburg and Leipzig don't act like Chelsea and City, they still have the chance to make the next step, after all they're the second richest club in the second richest league in the world. It isn't easy to establish a club that was midtable only 5 years ago in the European elite and why should it be? It certainly wasn't for the other top clubs in Europe, even though rival fans love to ignore that fact.

 

[PedroMendez]

well....as long as bayern continues to making fantastic decisions in the transfermarket no other club will take over. SInce 09/10 10/11 almost every transfer was either a success or fairly cheap. Thats a better record than almost any other club and thats not only about money. Bernat, Boateng, Rafinhia, Dante, Starke, Mandzukic and Robben are all doing way better than anyone expected.

The bad start to this season aside Dortmund is a role-model how to establish a club in the CL. If two or three other potencial big-market teams (e.g. Hamburg, Köln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart) would follow this example, the league would look different. Its up to them to make the best out of their situation.

 

[Balu]

well....as long as bayern continues to making fantastic decisions in the transfermarket no other club will take over. SInce 09/10 10/11 almost every transfer was either a success or fairly cheap. Thats a better record than almost any other club and thats not only about money. Bernat, Boateng, Rafinhia, Dante, Starke, Mandzukic and Robben are all doing way better than anyone expected.

The bad start to this season aside Dortmund is a role-model how to establish a club in the CL. If two or three other potencial big-market teams (e.g. Hamburg, Köln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart) would follow this example, the league would look different. Its up to them to make the best out of their situation

That's an odd inclusion . He's injured whenever we actually need him, which leaves a few games where we could have just started Neuer or would have won with a youth keeper as well.

 

[PedroMendez]

great signing for the team chemistry.

 

[GloryHunter07]

So, back to Reus...

 

[Mogget]

Can't say i've seen anyone saying we're entitled to sign players based just on our history. Think peoples main issue is the monopoly going on in Germany, as opposed to buying players from the same league. The margins are a lot smaller in the PL. You can sign Lewandowski/Goetze and severely weaken your direct title rival. The equivalent over here would be us nabbing Silva and Aguero*. It's a rich get richer scenario. No hypocrisy found in that at all i don't think.

*To flatter us hugely. Think 18 months back.

There was that one United fan on here in the summer who absolutely lost his shit when Sanchez signed for Arsenal instead of United. Even though United weren't even interested in signing him.

 

[legball]

...and as soon as they get too close for comfort have their best players seduced and defected quicker than you can say 'Auf Wiedersehen'.

Then they deal with it, why do you have a problem with that? The players would still leave anyway - so what's the point really?

 

[Cassidy]

Can't say i've seen anyone saying we're entitled to sign players based just on our history. Think peoples main issue is the monopoly going on in Germany, as opposed to buying players from the same league. The margins are a lot smaller in the PL. You can sign Lewandowski/Goetze and severely weaken your direct title rival. The equivalent over here would be us nabbing Silva and Aguero*. It's a rich get richer scenario. No hypocrisy found in that at all i don't think.

*To flatter us hugely. Think 18 months back.

Where were you in the summer? That kind of talk was rife on here!

 

[Redo91]

The same 'neutral' United fans would have given a shit about Dortmund or the Bundesliga, if Klopp became the new manager last summer and brought Reus and Hummels with them. The redcafe is full of hypocrites of the highest order when it comes to transfers. Whatever the big clubs in Europe do regarding transfers is evil in some way, whatever United does is deserved because of their proud history. The number of United fans who constantly take the moral highground is ridiculous.

Do we play in the Bundesliga? No. Huge difference between us poaching the best players from Dortmund and Bayern doing it. It's a double whammy in terms of the competitiveness of the league as it strengthens the best team in the league while at the same time weakening the second best team. In terms of who is going to win the league each year the Bundesliga is about as competitive as the SPL. Can't even begin to imagine what it will be like if Reus joins Bayern.

 

[Manucho the boss]

It's basic economics. Dortmund will sell Reus to Bayern, Dortmund will buy someone like Son from Leverkusen for less than they receive, Leverkusen will buy a replacement prob from a smaller team.

The big fish eat the little fish.

 

[Balu]

Do we play in the Bundesliga? No.

The hypocrisy is that United fans believe it's all great if Premier League clubs hurt the competitiveness in the Bundesliga, but it's not right if Bayern strengthen themselves through signings from within the league.

Thanks for proving the point .

 

[Redo91]

Thanks for proving the point .

The Premier League is more open in recent years than the Bundesliga. In Germany its all about Bayern and Dortmund when it comes to the title race. Its much more open than that in England. When we signed RVP from Arsenal, yes we weakened a rival, but ultimately we were going to be competing with City for the title that season anyhow so it didn't do any harm to the competitiveness of the league in that regard. When Bayern sign players from Dortmund they are weakening their ONLY rival for the league. That's the major difference between us signing players from within the league and Bayern doing it. It is always between Bayern and Dortmund for the title in Germany. It changes in England. Last season it was Liverpool and City. This season Chelsea and City. I know Wolfsburg have started the season really well but I expect them to fall away early in the new year with Bayern coasting in 2nd gear from then on.

By the way I'm not blaming Bayern for doing it at all. I don't expect them to hesitate to sign players from Dortmund as it might damage the significance of the Bundesliga as a league. I'm just saying that from a neutrals point of view, and someone who follows the Bundesliga it's a real shame that what I once viewed as the best league in the world 3-4 years ago, will soon be no more than a procession from the first week to the last.

 

[adexkola]

The same 'neutral' United fans would have given a shit about Dortmund or the Bundesliga, if Klopp became the new manager last summer and brought Reus and Hummels with them. The redcafe is full of hypocrites of the highest order when it comes to transfers. Whatever the big clubs in Europe do regarding transfers is evil in some way, whatever United does is deserved because of their proud history. The number of United fans who constantly take the moral highground is ridiculous.

Eh? I consistently bemoan the poaching of talent, no matter who poaches.

 

[Balu]

Eh? I consistently bemoan the poaching of talent, no matter who poaches.

Fair enough, I agree with that. It wasn't really aimed at you but more a general rant. Of course there are a few exceptions, but like someone else mentioned, you could find countless posts of United fans on the Caf, who wanted half the Dortmund team and Klopp at United, which makes all the comments regarding Bayern destroying Dortmund look rather stupid.

 

[finneh]

Thanks for proving the point .

I think the difference between a club like United buying a few of Dortmund's players and a club like Bayern is that the players are already settled into the League, so the risk factor is much, much less. Buying Dortmund's stars comes with every single benefit you could think of: settled in the League, can already speak the language, weakens you rival, strengthens yourself... If United bought Lewandowski and Gotze whilst Bayern bought Falcao and Di Maria you are correct that the net gain on both teams would potentially be pretty much the same (Dortmund lose a lot, Bayern gain a lot), however the risk (as well as the cost in this instance, which would be around £80m more) is quite a bit higher.

I have nothing against Bayern for this practice, it is in their interest to strengthen as much as possible. If it weren't for the sugar daddy clubs in England, United would be buying Arsenal's best player every single season, so there cannot be any moral high ground. This is why outside investment has been a real blessing for the Premier League in terms of competitiveness.

However it much leave a slightly sour taste in other German clubs' mouths. World Class players that wants to play in Germany only have one club that they can realistically go to if they want to be paid at the market rate and that is Bayern. It also doesn't help that Bayern earns double the TV revenue vs the bottom German club; this should be far more equitable like the Premier League. It is a bit of a cycle though, if Bayern signs Dortmund's best player's every season the League loses competitiveness; if the League loses competitiveness the TV revenue will start to stagger; if this happens it adversely effects all clubs, including Bayern.

The only real way that I can see this changing is either through a massive amount of luck (one of the clubs below Bayern run their club impeccably well and are very fortunate in the transfer market for a decade or 2); or through outside investment. The former is always going to be difficult; who can progressively improve with their best player's leaving every year (see Dortmund this season), and the latter is essentially being banned via FFP.

A good start however would be for Bayern to push for every team in the League to receive an equal slice of the TV money. Also if Dortmund would stop retardedly putting low release clauses in their players' contracts or letting them run them down (or at least have a stupidly high release clause for clubs in Germany).

 

[Balu]

It also doesn't help that Bayern earns double the TV revenue vs the bottom German club; this should be far more equitable like the Premier League.

There's really not that big of a difference to the Premier League. Not sure why you believe that makes a massive difference. Italy and especially Spain have far worse distribution keys for their tv money.

Spoiler

A good start however would be for Bayern to push for every team in the League to receive an equal slice of the TV money.

I don't even know where to start a discussion when most of what you wrote is based on a completely misinformed opinion. But yes clearly we should change the distribution, because those 0.76m stop Dortmund from competing. The gap in absolute numbers is actually significantly higher in the Premier League because of the higher tv deal. In 12/13 United got about £20m more than QPR, that's a significant higher advantage than the less than €13m Bayern earned in comparison to Fürth.

Spoiler

The massive difference between top clubs and small clubs is CL money. I've said before that UEFA should start giving the money to the leagues and force the leagues to distribute it in a fair way to all clubs, not just hand it to the top clubs, because CL money is what opened the gap between top teams and small teams in a way that it can't be overcome. That's a problem in all leagues though, in the Premier League just as much as in any other league. I'm pretty sure that the Bundesliga had more different clubs playing CL football in the last 10 years than the Premier League despite having only 3 CL spots for large parts of that time. The slightly more fair sharing of tv money in England did feck all to prevent an established top 4 from dominating the league.

 

[finneh]

There's really not that big of a difference to the Premier League. Not sure why you believe that makes a massive difference. Italy and especially Spain have far worse distribution keys for their tv money.

If the Premier League didn't have sugar daddies I'd be saying that model was massively flawed also. In fact it is massively flawed (albeit less than every League), even with the help of outside investment.

I don't even know where to start a discussion when most of what you wrote is based on a completely misinformed opinion. But yes clearly we should change the distribution, because those 0.76m stop Dortmund from competing. The gap in absolute numbers is actually significantly higher in the Premier League because of the higher tv deal. In 12/13 United got about £20m more than QPR, that's a significant higher advantage than the less than €13m Bayern earned in comparison to Fürth.

As a % the top club in the Premier League gets around 1.5x the bottom club. In the Bundesliga the top club gets 2x the bottom club. Obviously we aren't talking about hundreds of millions, but in a League where Bayern are so dominant, taking some from the (very) rich and giving to the (very) poor would be common sense in my view, which is why I said "a good start", rather than "would fix the issues".

The wage disparity follows this same theme, which is a far higher disparity between top and bottom, which as is the case with Spain leads to a situation where you have a team that averages 2.2 goals a game better than the opposition over the course of the last 80 odd games (as a comparison Barcelona = + 1.85, Real Madrid = + 1.7).

The massive difference between top clubs and small clubs is CL money. I've said before that UEFA should start giving the money to the leagues and force the leagues to distribute it in a fair way to all clubs, not just hand it to the top clubs, because CL money is what opened the gap between top teams and small teams in a way that it can't be overcome. That's a problem in all leagues though, in the Premier League just as much as in any other league. I'm pretty sure that the Bundesliga had more different clubs playing CL football in the last 10 years than the Premier League despite having only 3 CL spots for large parts of that time. The slightly more fair sharing of tv money in England did feck all to prevent an established top 4 from dominating the league.

The massive difference in Germany is Commercial revenue, not Champions League revenue. Champions League revenue is big, but doesn't allow you to pay over twice the weekly wage of your next competitor, who also receive CL revenue. The difference in Germany of course is that after Bayern there are a few teams who are all on a similar level financially and after that a few more on a little bit less. This means that the battle for second, third & fourth place will often be exciting (and will result in several different teams qualifying for the CL); it is just that apart from isolated seasons where Bayern are disinterested or mismanaged, first place is guaranteed.

I guess this is the big difference. Chelsea, City, Man Utd, Arsenal & Liverpool all have top earners in the same £175 - 250k category. The chances are that if Arsenal or Liverpool really want to keep a player out of the reaches of their domestic competition, only an inability to consistently win trophies or a failure to be proactive in renewing a player's contract would stop them, rather than an inability to pay them the going rate.

 

[Balu]

As a % the top club in the Premier League gets around 1.5x the bottom club. In the Bundesliga the top club gets 2x the bottom club. Obviously we aren't talking about hundreds of millions, but in a League where Bayern are so dominant, taking some from the (very) rich and giving to the (very) poor would be common sense in my view, which is why I said "a good start", rather than "would fix the issues".

It's the 2nd fairest distribution deal in Europe and what you suggest would hurt the 2nd tier clubs like Dortmund, Schalke, Leverkusen a lot more than Bayern and therefore looks rather counterproductive to me. Anyway, you made it sound like the tv money distribution is some crazy exploitation of the small clubs when that's clearly not true. It's a relatively fair distribution key that rewards success in the league, which is actually important for the small clubs. If you give everyone the same, it would also bring all the midtable clubs on the same level. But clubs like Mainz and Augsburg, who consistently do a better job than some of the bigger clubs (Hamburg, Stuttgart, Bremen for example) deserve that financial advantage as a reward for their good work. Taking that away from them makes absolutely no sense at all. I get that all you're interested in is 'how could another club beat Bayern as often as possible' when it comes to the Bundesliga, but the league is about more than that, a lot more actually.

The massive difference in Germany is Commercial revenue, not Champions League revenue.

I know how important commercial revenue is. It's nothing that the German FA or the Bundesliga or UEFA can change though, which makes it completely unnecessary to mention. The CL revenue however is a different story and could change a lot. I've no idea why you make it sound like the 50m gap from 1st to 5th through CL money is irrelevant but, the 13m gap between 1st and 18th placed team from the domestic tv money should be smaller. That makes no sense at all.

 

[finneh]

It's the 2nd fairest distribution deal in Europe and what you suggest would hurt the 2nd tier clubs like Dortmund, Schalke, Leverkusen a lot more than Bayern and therefore looks rather counterproductive to me. Anyway, you made it sound like the tv money distribution is some crazy exploitation of the small clubs when that's clearly not true. It's a relatively fair distribution key that rewards success in the league, which is actually important for the small clubs. If you give everyone the same, it would also bring all the midtable clubs on the same level. But clubs like Mainz and Augsburg, who consistently do a better job than some of the bigger clubs (Hamburg, Stuttgart, Bremen for example) deserve that financial advantage as a reward for their good work. Taking that away from them makes absolutely no sense at all. I get that all you're interested in is 'how could another club beat Bayern as often as possible' when it comes to the Bundesliga, but the league is about more than that, a lot more actually.


I know how important commercial revenue is. It's nothing that the German FA or the Bundesliga or UEFA can change though, which makes it completely unnecessary to mention. The CL revenue however is a different story and could change a lot. I've no idea why you make it sound like the 50m gap from 1st to 5th through CL money is irrelevant but, the 13m gap between 1st and 18th placed team from the domestic tv money should be smaller. That makes no sense at all.

Again a fairer distribution would help. Saying it is the second fairest doesn't matter when even the fairest isn't particularly fair. Clubs who perform better get more through sponsorships and match day revenue in the long term so they are rewarded that way anyway.

Champions League revenue is never going to be split because top teams won't allow it. Bayern splitting their commercial revenue is as likely as them splitting their CL revenue.

The obvious answer is to allow outside investment as occurred in the PL. Obviously that's been banned now. Therefore it'll be a 2 horse race at the top for the considerable future.

 

[Piratesoup]

So be it, then. Why should heaven and hell be moved to correct certain teams managerial mistakes? The TV system looks pretty fair to me, it actually rewards teams that do well while "punishing" those doing badly (as Balu said, look at Augsburg and Mainz or, as a contrast, Bremen and Hamburg recently).

Bayern won the league twice now. TWICE. Would a United fan have complained that the league might become a bit monotonous when you won it 5 times in row? People nowadays make it sound as if Dortmund and Bayern have been in this great power struggle forever when that's simply not true. The Bundesliga has always produced surprise teams and even though Bayern look invincible now, that can change within acoupe of years and somebody else might have a miracle season again.

It's not up to Bayern to help other teams be successful over an extended period, though.

 

[Devil may care]

It doesn't matter if Reus goes to Bayern or not, they are always going to largely dominate that league as they are so far ahead of the rest as a financial force. I like Dortmund but they are going to lose him anyway and I'd much rather it was to Bayern than any PL team that isn't us.

 

[Dumbat12]

You guys are ridiculous. Why don't we ban transfer so nobody can poach other players and depend only on their youth? Feck sake, transfers are made for this, why do you blame Bayern and not Dortmund and Lewandowski? This isn't some fecking charity contest.

Balu and Piratesoup are right. If we could buy Aguero and Sterling, I doubt anyone here is going to cry how we are weakening our rivals. It's just the way it is in the Bundesliga and that's how it's gonna be until Dortmund becomes a big team that can compete in the transfer market.

A guy here nailed it - Bayern will buy players from Dortmund, Dortmund will buy players from Leverkusen, Leverkusen are going to buy players from Mainz, etc etc. That's how life has always been.

Also, as I said, if Bayern can't buy Lewandowski, they're going to buy someone else and Dortmund is still going to lose Lewandowski. It's just how it is. Bayern not buying Dortmund's players won't change a single thing except the club that they are going to go to.

 

[Theonas]

You guys are ridiculous. Why don't we ban transfer so nobody can poach other players and depend only on their youth? Feck sake, transfers are made for this, why do you blame Bayern and not Dortmund and Lewandowski? This isn't some fecking charity contest.

Balu and Piratesoup are right. If we could buy Aguero and Sterling, I doubt anyone here is going to cry how we are weakening our rivals. It's just the way it is in the Bundesliga and that's how it's gonna be until Dortmund becomes a big team that can compete in the transfer market.

A guy here nailed it - Bayern will buy players from Dortmund, Dortmund will buy players from Leverkusen, Leverkusen are going to buy players from Mainz, etc etc. That's how life has always been.

Also, as I said, if Bayern can't buy Lewandowski, they're going to buy someone else and Dortmund is still going to lose Lewandowski. It's just how it is. Bayern not buying Dortmund's players won't change a single thing except the club that they are going to go to.

You definitely have a point and the moral outrage from some people is hypocritical. However, to point out that what Bayern are doing is weakening the league and making it less of a spectacle is a fair observation. Whether people wouldn't blink an eye if it was their club doing it or not is another issue.

 

[Kakeru]

I don't think United was ever an option, they semm to seriously lack appeal to german players. Don't know why though.

Ask Fergie who always had something against Germans instead of opening doors for them.

 

[Balu]

Clubs who perform better get more through sponsorships and match day revenue in the long term so they are rewarded that way anyway.

This is a joke right? You can't seriously believe that a club like Freiburg or Mainz could ever get better sponsorship deals than Hamburg unless the latter gets relegated, and even then I wouldn't be sure.

The obvious answer is to allow outside investment as occurred in the PL. Obviously that's been banned now. Therefore it'll be a 2 horse race at the top for the considerable future.

So the 'obvious' answer is to destroy all competition and just hand the other CL spots to clubs like Wolfsburg and Leipzig to create an artifical order instead of a naturally grown one? That's your suggestion in a discussion that started with 'how could Dortmund compete with Bayern longterm'? Maybe we should ask Dortmund fans, if they believe it would be a better league where outside investment lead to Wolfsburg, Leipzig and Bayern poaching their players instead of just Bayern. It worked well for Arsenal after all.

It's incredible how you can convince yourself that you argue for smaller clubs here when all your suggestions would actually hurt the small clubs and destroy everything that's great about German football at the moment. Fair enough if you don't like the Bundesliga, but maybe you should just accept that all leagues have flaws and offer something different instead of twisting everything around just to end up in your usual 'Premier League is the best' nonsense, which - probably to your surprise - many people in Germany actually disagree with.