Feck me I forgot I made that post and forgot I signed him on FM.
Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement
- Thread starter WeePat
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so now if we are talking loan directly.....woudl the choice be Rabiot or Ugarte as the preference?
Well Rabiot wouldn’t be a loan since he’s a free agent. He’d be signed and we’d have to sell him if it didn’t work out
No reason we can’t do both though
Or just let him go, I doubt he'd need more than a two year deal and we wouldn't make the Eriksen mistake again you'd like to think.
For me, I think that he feels the void tactically. Ten Haag isn't going to change his tactics, so the #6 will be isolated much more. Casemerio can't cover the space as well anymore. I think you will see a Mount- Bruno - Ugarte midfield that presses hard and plays quick transition football with Mainoo rotating in for Mount.
Plus, I think we can't pay a big fee for him in a summer we want to spend close to 100m on CBs and, provided that our summer signings turn out well and we have a good season, next term we could have more wiggle room to pay a huge fee and motivated by his performances too. We are and made two biggish purchases and are committed to make another whilst the sales have not panned out as previously planned. Ideally Maguire and Lindelof would be leaving to finance the De Ligt signing, Casemiro and McTominay would finance Ugarte or another DM.
Speaking of which; think it makes sense to move on, especially if we can sell McT and Eriksen, and go for a cheaper option and see how he and Casemiro handle the season before deciding further.
Sander Berge? feck me! Bring back Woody.
that's right he's a free so no cost except wages and if you give him a sign on bonus much like the loan fee we'd have to pay for Ugarte...
Both...yes....now you just have to make it happen
Sounds like he is too expensive (with Casemiro not leaving).
Partly I think we need a tackling machine. Partly I think you're missing key bits in that description. He's also a tireless athlete, who can defensively cover a very large area for 90 minutes. Also, he's a very reliable high-volume low-risk passer. He doesn't do anything progressive or creative but he does move the ball, a lot, without losing it. Including long passes to the wings, also with high accuracy. And he's good under the press; again, not dribbling creatively but able to manoeuvre out of pressure in his own half with a high success rate.
I think he's the right player to combine with Mainoo and Bruno. Basically by providing as much defensive shield as any DM available at the moment, and just feeding them the ball, a lot, without losing it. Let Mainoo do the progressive running and Bruno the progressive passing. Buy a player who does what no-one else in our squad can, currently.
For what it's worth I don't want him so badly I think we should overpay. I'm pleased that so far this summer we seem to have broken that habit. I think he's the best option out there but he's not the only one and I'd take a slightly less ideal one if it helps us to move towards a more sustainable transfer strategy and less of a reputation for being an easy mark.
Duncan Castles, enough said
I think Rabiot is the only option left, its a bit late in the window to start convincing Zubimendi and other options just sound meh
Yeah weird name to throw out
Ugarte vs AWB in terms of tackling stats:
Point being that while you can describe both as tackling machines, Ugarte has better output relative to his position in terms of passing the ball, carrying the ball and even tackling. Not all tackling machines are created equally.
The position they play in also makes a difference. It's hard to "hide" a fullback from being a weakness in possession when you're building out from the back, whereas in a double pivot in midfield you have at least one other midfielder (e.g. Mainoo) who can drop into deeper positions and be more involved in possession.
It's weird how people dont rate Rice but rate Ugarte. I think this is what @golden_blunder is trying to portrait. Rice & Wan Bissaka are insane off the ball & yet you hear so many posts about how they are worthless and overrated because of how we should aim to play with everything dedicated to technically passing the ball around like we are the second coming of a Pep's team and everything else is ultimately useless to us & keeping us from reaching the top.
Anyway,
I rate off the ball ability just as much as on the ball ability because whilst you can only win games by scoring goals, you can also not lose a game by just defending well.
Ugarte looks to be the best off the ball player we can get & yet he is getting a lot of hype whilst players like Wan Bissaka & Rice constantly get talked about as some mediocre players.
Maybe it's just because they are both English and had high transfer fees so its relative to their cost whilst Ugarte is a new flashy south american Uruguayan player we get for cheaper.
Still, i rate players like Wan Bissaka & Rice quite highly compared to others & i will be glad to add Ugarte to that collection of players if he is able to show similair off the ball ability in the PL for us.
I'm not one of those fans who wants every player to play like a Rodri or a Xavi or a Busquets - as great as they are, they all elevated their game arguably by just being under Guardiola's management & were not as legendary prior to that & expecting players to play like that under a different manager isn't realistic.
Off the ball ability is underrated, even if we go and sign someone like Wharton who seems to be better on the ball, Ugarte will still be useful because of the peace of mind it would allow players like Wharton or Mainoo to play at their own tempo.
@sullydnl
Also with the stats - know that PSG are more of a possesion based team especially in Ligue 1 compared to how United play under Ten Hag in the PL. Two completely different leagues & 2 completely different managers.
There is a reason why Luis Enrique wants to get rid of Ugarte - because to him Ugarte is a Wan Bissaka playing in a possesion based midfield team.
Anyway,
I rate off the ball ability just as much as on the ball ability because whilst you can only win games by scoring goals, you can also not lose a game by just defending well.
Ugarte looks to be the best off the ball player we can get & yet he is getting a lot of hype whilst players like Wan Bissaka & Rice constantly get talked about as some mediocre players.
Maybe it's just because they are both English and had high transfer fees so its relative to their cost whilst Ugarte is a new flashy south american Uruguayan player we get for cheaper.
Still, i rate players like Wan Bissaka & Rice quite highly compared to others & i will be glad to add Ugarte to that collection of players if he is able to show similair off the ball ability in the PL for us.
I'm not one of those fans who wants every player to play like a Rodri or a Xavi or a Busquets - as great as they are, they all elevated their game arguably by just being under Guardiola's management & were not as legendary prior to that & expecting players to play like that under a different manager isn't realistic.
Off the ball ability is underrated, even if we go and sign someone like Wharton who seems to be better on the ball, Ugarte will still be useful because of the peace of mind it would allow players like Wharton or Mainoo to play at their own tempo.
@sullydnl
Also with the stats - know that PSG are more of a possesion based team especially in Ligue 1 compared to how United play under Ten Hag in the PL. Two completely different leagues & 2 completely different managers.
There is a reason why Luis Enrique wants to get rid of Ugarte - because to him Ugarte is a Wan Bissaka playing in a possesion based midfield team.
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I agree off the ball is as important as on the ball, especially when it comes to defence.... however I disagree AWB is poor off the ball, is often miles out of position and resorts to sliding tackles because he is making up ground.... a good example of off the ball defence is a player who directs the attacker away from danger, makes interceptions by anticipating the ball/forcing errors and who does not have to resort to last ditch defending,
BTW I rate Rice, particularly with peas, I also love jasmine and sticky (cannot stand long grain though)..... seriously would have taken/ would take Declan here in a heart beat think he is a top drawer player, but he and AWB do not belong in the same sentence, unless it is Declan Rice and AWB are nothing like each other as players
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AWB is poor off the ball as well as on the ball. His eye-catching last-ditch tackles don't significantly change that. He does not belong at a team that wants to challenge for top honours
The audacity of them to want the same they paid for him. If you sign someone and want to sell them after just one season you surely have to accept it's going to be discounted. Imagine if it was us trying to shift someone after one year?
Considering how our defence wasn’t protected at all last season don’t you think a tackling machine is needed so that the forward minded players can perform to a higher level while defence is assured?
No that would be terrible, because that would basically be the same price PSG got him last year on. 10M loan + 30M obligation is the highest I would go.
Costs less the half the price
What other options are there for a defensive anchor? I mean £40-50m isn't cheap but we must have some different ideas - seems like none of us are confident he's exactly what we need
That's fair, but with the cost spread over the loan and then purchase, it would only knock £40m off next year's FFP / PSR whatever it is.
But I agree, if it's an obligation we should push it down as far as we can.
Both are needed and make sense, agreed.
Didn't PSG get Dimaria at a discounted price from us in exactly the same situation? I'm sure they will fold or we will look elsewhere.
They didn't buy Di Maria for how much we paid for him. They are crazy, we want that discount.
Spot on, they're taking the piss, walk away and let teams know that we're not going to be messed about in the transfer market anymore.
How can they want the 50m back. He’s like 3rd hand now
42m is a great offer and only an 8m loss.Palace paid 21.10 mill euros back in 01.Feb.24. I think they will be satisfy with 45-50 mill £ plus adds on, half year later.
I can quality insurance Adam Wharton. 50 mill £ back to United if not satisfy.
What i can quarantue you what Adam Wharton will bring to United, insurance abilities and qualities:
- Wharton is a ballwinner and had over 3 succesful tackles in premier league last season
- Wharton will be able to control the ball and game and slow it down when needed. Wharton will improve United ball possesion
- United attacking players will love him. As Palace attacking players.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/adam-wharton/profil/spieler/744149
Transfermarkt didn't category Wharton as a creative cm player, but as defensive cm too. Because of his ballwinning abilities for Palace last season.
Wharton is a player United can't missed out. Because he scored so high both with ballwinning abilities and his controlling and creative abilities.
Double pivot/CM duo with Wharton:
Diallo/Sancho - Wharton - Mainoo - Rashford + Bruno + Højlund/Zirkzee
In this 4411. Wharton will the CM that hold back and let Mainoo become more offensive and more box to box. Wharton has discipline to hold back, control and scan the pitch like a felix and put in a tackle when needed.
Again. Ball skill is more difficult to develoop than skill without the ball. Just like crosser like Beckham. No one bend the ball like him. You can practise and practise. And still not sure you will hit Beckham level. Or dribbling like Messi or Ronaldinho. The touch and precise of the ball. It is really hard to develop at the age of 23 or above.
But being more aggresive and improve your running. Covering more ground. It is easier to develop than difficult ball skills.
Wharton has a gift left foot to be a cm player.
So again. Ship Wharton back to Palace if you are not satisfy. Then i will send back 50 £ mill to United bank account
. Not because of mine illusion thoughts. But from what i observed of Wharton, of his football skills, football intelligence and vision. He is giving me confidence to insurance United "money back if not satisfy "
And Toby Collyer and Dan Gore has potential to do what Ugarte is doing, when they reach Ugarte age. You got to believe in them, motivate, push and guide them. I do see potential in those 2 boys. They definitely has Ugarte mentality. It's all about the physical. It is how much and how long they can run.
I can quality insurance Adam Wharton. 50 mill £ back to United if not satisfy.
What i can quarantue you what Adam Wharton will bring to United, insurance abilities and qualities:
- Wharton is a ballwinner and had over 3 succesful tackles in premier league last season
- Wharton will be able to control the ball and game and slow it down when needed. Wharton will improve United ball possesion
- United attacking players will love him. As Palace attacking players.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/adam-wharton/profil/spieler/744149
Transfermarkt didn't category Wharton as a creative cm player, but as defensive cm too. Because of his ballwinning abilities for Palace last season.
Wharton is a player United can't missed out. Because he scored so high both with ballwinning abilities and his controlling and creative abilities.
Double pivot/CM duo with Wharton:
Diallo/Sancho - Wharton - Mainoo - Rashford + Bruno + Højlund/Zirkzee
In this 4411. Wharton will the CM that hold back and let Mainoo become more offensive and more box to box. Wharton has discipline to hold back, control and scan the pitch like a felix and put in a tackle when needed.
Again. Ball skill is more difficult to develoop than skill without the ball. Just like crosser like Beckham. No one bend the ball like him. You can practise and practise. And still not sure you will hit Beckham level. Or dribbling like Messi or Ronaldinho. The touch and precise of the ball. It is really hard to develop at the age of 23 or above.
But being more aggresive and improve your running. Covering more ground. It is easier to develop than difficult ball skills.
Wharton has a gift left foot to be a cm player.
So again. Ship Wharton back to Palace if you are not satisfy. Then i will send back 50 £ mill to United bank account
. Not because of mine illusion thoughts. But from what i observed of Wharton, of his football skills, football intelligence and vision. He is giving me confidence to insurance United "money back if not satisfy " And Toby Collyer and Dan Gore has potential to do what Ugarte is doing, when they reach Ugarte age. You got to believe in them, motivate, push and guide them. I do see potential in those 2 boys. They definitely has Ugarte mentality. It's all about the physical. It is how much and how long they can run.
Whoever we get would be a step down. Ugarte is described as a young Ngolo Kante, he won't sit Infront of the back four ala Claude makalele, but go hunting it down and force transitions in areas that will hurt the opposition ala Kante.
Add to that his ability to beat the press and you have a very capable midfielder.
Finding someone else of his ilke who puts up the numbers he does won't be easy to find.
Palhinha puts up similar numbers and Bayern paid €56mil for him and he's 29. Ugarte is 23 so €60mil seems a fair price compared to Palhinha.
Palace paid 21.10 mill euros back in 01.Feb.24. I think they will be satisfy with 45-50 mill £ plus adds on, half year later.
I can quality insurance Adam Wharton. 50 mill £ back to United if not satisfy.
What i can quarantue you what Adam Wharton will bring to United, insurance abilities and qualities:
- Wharton is a ballwinner and had over 3 succesful tackles in premier league last season
- Wharton will be able to control the ball and game and slow it down when needed. Wharton will improve United ball possesion
- United attacking players will love him. As Palace attacking players.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/adam-wharton/profil/spieler/744149
Transfermarkt didn't category Wharton as a creative cm player, but as defensive cm too. Because of his ballwinning abilities for Palace last season.
Wharton is a player United can't missed out. Because he scored so high both with ballwinning abilities and his controlling and creative abilities.
Double pivot/CM duo with Wharton:
Diallo/Sancho - Wharton - Mainoo - Rashford + Bruno + Højlund/Zirkzee
In this 4411. Wharton will the CM that hold back and let Mainoo become more offensive and more box to box. Wharton has discipline to hold back, control and scan the pitch like a felix and put in a tackle when needed.
Again. Ball skill is more difficult to develoop than skill without the ball. Just like crosser like Beckham. No one bend the ball like him. You can practise and practise. And still not sure you will hit Beckham level. Or dribbling like Messi or Ronaldinho. The touch and precise of the ball. It is really hard to develop at the age of 23 or above.
But being more aggresive and improve your running. Covering more ground. It is easier to develop than difficult ball skills.
Wharton has a gift left foot to be a cm player.
So again. Ship Wharton back to Palace if you are not satisfy. Then i will send back 50 £ mill to United bank account
And Toby Collyer and Dan Gore has potential to do what Ugarte is doing, when they reach Ugarte age. You got to believe in them, motivate, push and guide them. I do see potential in those 2 boys. They definitely has Ugarte mentality. It's all about the physical. It is how much and how long they can run.
Absolutely no chance Palace sell this summer, especially after selling Olise, and especially not for 45-50m.
How can they want the 50m back. He’s like 3rd hand now
They are a state owned football club.......there lies the answer.
They’re a joke of a club. There lies the truth.
Yip, them and City!
I think £42M including add-ons is fair considering Palhinha just went for ~£47M. We should move on if they're reluctant to sell. Ugarte's value will only continue to drop the longer he's stuck with PSG.
Yeah need to replace Eriksen with Rabiot then focus on selling McTominay to fund another midfielder such as Ugarte/Zubimendi
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