Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement

Status
Not open for further replies.
simonhch said:
Making an investment worth 50m plus wages etc, should be looked at in the longer term, not through the lens of the first three games. Firstly Ugarte was at Copa, which meant it would always be a late signing, secondly the initial fee was 70m euros and we’ve gotten him for 50 plus 10. I would say that several weeks of negotiation, and not being available for the first three games, is worth the 10-20m euros saved. I think this is where being a grown up and professional is quite helpful when it comes to running a multi-billion pound organisation; and not being an over-excited couch muppet whose entire perspective of the future rests on a seven minute cameo at the weekend.

As for the rest of our signings, Zirkzee and Yoro were brought in very early. Earlier than most of our rivals did any business. De Ligt and Mazraoui in time for the start of the season. You may or may not have noticed, but there were two rather large international tournaments this summer, which heavily impacted most clubs ability to do business early in the window, and also meant players have come back late - needing rest - somewhat unfit and not ready to play.

Us starting the season with a “worse” midfield than this time last year is the result of years of bad squad building, not the result of not getting deals done fast enough this window. This window what was important was to (a) get the RIGHT players in for our long term success (accomplished), (b) not overpay for players and change the entire narrative about United being a soft touch in the transfer market, even if this meant protracted negotiations (accomplished), and (c) shift out unwanted and unneeded players (significant progress and ongoing).

To look at the success or failure of this window through the context of the first three games is just fecking daft, and the type of reductive thinking that makes clubs buy crap players just because they are easy to sign/available. The general barrel of shite we had available on match day one was a result of years of bad dealings, not the result of this window. We should go into next season with a much better starting squad now, that can add 2-3 players to go up another level.
Click to expand...
Great post. I’ve read about the Uruguay manager saying Ugarte having four lungs and being the fittest player he’s seen etc..and the romanticist in me wanted him to start. I fear for Sunday, no Mount, Casimeiro looking tired at Brighton. I hope Cas has the game of his life and wants to fight for his place.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Cavani was a success, the problem was doing everything to convince him to stay, only to find out a couple of weeks later we could bring in Ronaldo to play his position.

Is there any nation we have a better than 1 in 5 success rate with? I doubt it.
Click to expand...
Among the smaller nations, probably Portugal has served us best. Ronaldo, Nani, Bruno, Dalot, ...
lex talionis said:
While I agree with the sentiment that we should look at signings such as De Ligt and Ugarte, or any signing for that matter, with a view to the long-term, the saving of 10 euros which seems to be sum actually saved by driving the hard line isn't that great of a sum when looked at in the long-term. I don't know the details of his contract but let's assume it's a 4 year deal...we saved 2.5mE over each year of his contract. That's not nothing, but it's not a lot either.

First, we all assume here that Ugarte is the right man for the job and will more than pay us back for the 50mE we spent on him. I agree with that assumption.

If a fully fit and in form Ugarte means the difference between defeating or being defeated by Liverpool, as well as Brighton, the 10mE the Glazers saved may not well have been good business. True, the outcome one game (actually two if we count Brighton, and possibly three as we barely scraped by Fulham but we did scrape by) isn't the end all, be all in judging the wisdom of holding out for a 10mE savings, but this isn't just another game and we're already in a bit of a hole after only 2 PL games. Speculation only, but I speculate we would not have dropped three points to Brighton had we had Ugarte. And sticking with speculation, I speculate that Ugarte makes the difference between the likelihood of United defeating, rather than losing to, Liverpool this weekend.

But if I'm wrong about that, that having Ugarte fit and in form for Brighton and Liverpool makes no difference as to whether or not we would have lost to Brighton anyway and probably get thrashed by Liverpool, then I'm wrong about that, but then we might want to question why we're spending 50mE on a player which does not materially improve our ability to control midfield, a universally acknowledged weakness in our play.

However, here we are and the Glazers did save 10mE by holding out to the last minute in buying a player the manager desperately wanted and which nearly every one of us here, myself included, believes will substantially improve our ability to control midfield and shield our back line.
Click to expand...
If Ugarte would be worth 3 extra points against Liverpool then he is one hell of a signing and just think how many points he would be worth against lesser teams - all those other draws and defeats become wins. League title in the bag!
 
Geez we take our time…. No urgency whatsoever to get this done and have him available for Liverpool. Shocking to say the least. Let’s hope we get a result. Sunday in this doesn’t bite us..
 
simonhch said:
:lol: Fair play. You’ve taken that like a gentleman.
Click to expand...
Please tell me you didnt learn that phrase from Joss Whedon :boring:

lex talionis said:
However, here we are and the Glazers did save 10mE by holding out to the last minute in buying a player the manager desperately wanted and which nearly every one of us here, myself included, believes will substantially improve our ability to control midfield and shield our back line.
Click to expand...
Just as an addendum here, PSG wanted 60M fixed, and we agreed on 50M+10M addons. If Ugarte ends up being a success, we end up paying 60M anyway(which we'd be happy to ofcourse). Just saying best case scenario, we have not saved any money(on the long term).
 
I see people are stil getting annoyed about a fictional scenario where he was signed yesterday and played v Liverpool. Something that wouldn't have happened regardless.
 
MyBloodIsRed said:
Geez we take our time…. No urgency whatsoever to get this done and have him available for Liverpool. Shocking to say the least. Let’s hope we get a result. Sunday in this doesn’t bite us..
Click to expand...
We are signing him to play for the club for the next 5 years not just Sunday, chill out. He wasn't starting regardless.
 
lex talionis said:
While I agree with the sentiment that we should look at signings such as De Ligt and Ugarte, or any signing for that matter, with a view to the long-term, the saving of 10 euros which seems to be sum actually saved by driving the hard line isn't that great of a sum when looked at in the long-term. I don't know the details of his contract but let's assume it's a 4 year deal...we saved 2.5mE over each year of his contract. That's not nothing, but it's not a lot either.

First, we all assume here that Ugarte is the right man for the job and will more than pay us back for the 50mE we spent on him. I agree with that assumption.

If a fully fit and in form Ugarte means the difference between defeating or being defeated by Liverpool, as well as Brighton, the 10mE the Glazers saved may not well have been good business. True, the outcome one game (actually two if we count Brighton, and possibly three as we barely scraped by Fulham but we did scrape by) isn't the end all, be all in judging the wisdom of holding out for a 10mE savings, but this isn't just another game and we're already in a bit of a hole after only 2 PL games. Speculation only, but I speculate we would not have dropped three points to Brighton had we had Ugarte. And sticking with speculation, I speculate that Ugarte makes the difference between the likelihood of United defeating, rather than losing to, Liverpool this weekend.

But if I'm wrong about that, that having Ugarte fit and in form for Brighton and Liverpool makes no difference as to whether or not we would have lost to Brighton anyway and probably get thrashed by Liverpool, then I'm wrong about that, but then we might want to question why we're spending 50mE on a player which does not materially improve our ability to control midfield, a universally acknowledged weakness in our play.

However, here we are and the Glazers did save 10mE by holding out to the last minute in buying a player the manager desperately wanted and which nearly every one of us here, myself included, believes will substantially improve our ability to control midfield and shield our back line.
Click to expand...
10m Euros, which is the least we will save - and potentially as much as 20m - is a lot of money. However you shake it down. Whether you look at it in one sum or amortised over the course of the contract. It’s also best viewed as a foundational principle, because 10m saved on every signing in that sort of price bracket (we saved a similar amount on De Ligt), adds up very, very quickly. Moreover, it is part of the strategy to change the perception of the club as being a soft touch and overpaying in the market. You can’t do that unless you drive a hard bargain on EVERY deal. You can’t save 10m on De Ligt and then throw 70m at PSG for Ugarte and then wonder why people continue to take us for a ride in the market. I would say it’s one of the single most important things we’ve done in the market this summer.

And as I have to reiterate, sacrificing that principle just to have a player available for the first three games, is the sort of thinking that leaves us in this long term cycle of overspending in the market. At some point you have to bite the bullet, make the change, suffer the pain, and reposition the club. It only made sense for Ineos to do that from the moment they took over. I don’t see any valid argument, that isn’t an example of extreme short term thinking, that successfully advocates for overpaying on a transfer to ensure they are assimilated earlier.

For Ineos to course correct the club, it’s going to take years, not weeks. The work done this summer will be felt this year, but it’ll be felt more next year and the year after. Just like the profligacy of previous summers is being felt now. The success of the Ineos era will be judged over seasons, not over the matter of games against Fulham, Brighton and Liverpool.

It’s also the case that two things are happening simultaneously here. 1. Is the recalibration and improvement of the squad, where getting the right players in, at the best prices, is the principle priority. 2. The coaching of the team. Losing to Brighton, who fielded a midfield of Gilmour and 37 year old James Milner, isn’t the result of the failure to sign another 50m midfielder, it’s the result of a failure of coaching. United, with all their resources and players - and look at the teams on paper, man to man - should be beating Brighton and dominating the game. The failure to do so was because the team was out coached and out played. Unless the answer is that we now need James Milner to succeed. Every time we lose to a team who, on paper, have significantly lesser players than we do, people resort to saying how we need new signings; where the reality is that we have a series of players who would massively improve these smaller clubs we lose to, but we routinely fail to get the best out of them. Coaching.

While Ugarte will make us better, much better presumably, but the manager should also be getting significantly better performances and results out of the players he has. That comes down to simple things such as giving the players the right instructions, developing well honed patterns of play, and of winning the tactical battles through intelligent deployment of resources. Any of the players so often lambasted in our system of not being good enough, could rock up into that Brighton team and look a much better and more effective player; why? Because they are well coached, have a distinct and well drilled approach to play, and have specific objectives directly related to the quality of resources at their disposal. All the things that aren’t happening at United.

Ineos are building a squad that will help the manager implement his vision, but they are also building a squad that will help the next manager implement his vision. This is the first summer where we are actually operating with an overarching strategic intent. One where a style of play and suitable squad is being built that doesn’t need to be ripped up every time a new coach is appointed. A scenario that feels like a matter of when, not if.

If, after spending the hundreds of millions the manager has already spent, we can’t put together a cohesive, effective performance without yet another new signing; then the problems run much deeper than whether a new signing was ready in time or not. And because of that, the reform of the club had to be root and branch, not just superficial. It had to be robust enough that a new coach coming in had all the infrastructure - both physical and intellectual - to effectively deploy a system of play without needing to resort in any overhaul. That is the goal of what Ineos are doing. The idea of signing a single player to transform the fortunes of the club on the pitch, is the stereotypical example of superficiality in reform. The need to do so is probably the most damning indictment of a coach’s ability that I can think of.

Slot has come into Liverpool to a midfield of Gravenberch, Mac Allister and Szloboszlai, with Curtis Jones and Harvey Elliot as other options. That is hardly, on paper, a great midfield. He’s been able to make zero midfield signings. He’s also implemented a completed different style of play to his predecessor. And yet, they’ve looked slick. This is Ten Hag’s third season now, and he can’t get a trio of Casemiro, Mainoo and Fernandes to dominate Brighton. If you look at Casemiro’s heat map, he’s ALL over the field, this from a player who arrived at the club as one of the most revered and specialised DMs in world football. Now he’s “washed up”, “gassed”, “legs are gone”, “useless”, or is he just woefully misused? Mainoo looks knackered after 60 minutes, is he unfit, too young? Or is he being asked to cover far too much ground because of our bizarre 3-1-6 formation that doesn’t even yield goals?

I think we can all agree that in an ideal world we’d like all signings made early in the summer so they can get a full preseason with the squad, but given the realities of a summer with copa and euros, this was always a near impossibility. I will also contend that it was much more important to get the right players and not over pay (for the long term success of the club) than it ever was to get them in quickly at an elevated fee. We’ve spent years with short term, quick fix, band aid, and glamour thinking. And the club has fallen into complete disaster. A chaotic, profligate wasteland of shite. Having long term, joined up thinking, changing the perception of the club in the market, and implementing a strategic vision was always the most important objective of the summer. And is a blessed relief.

Again, I don’t expect this to pay off right away, but that’s not really the point. The point is where we will be in 3 years, not where we are after 3 games.
 
Last edited:
Steve 007 said:
Great post. I’ve read about the Uruguay manager saying Ugarte having four lungs and being the fittest player he’s seen etc..and the romanticist in me wanted him to start. I fear for Sunday, no Mount, Casimeiro looking tired at Brighton. I hope Cas has the game of his life and wants to fight for his place.
Click to expand...

Is that Bielsa who said that? That would be some compliment coming from him considering his philosophy.
 
golden_blunder said:
Sorry bit of a crap joke because I said yesterday that they don’t register him on time to play versus Liverpool.

Why would they? He’s had little football
Click to expand...

To be honest, I usually have a glance at the thread before posting but my phones playing up a bit so I didn't bother.

I think it's probably the right thing anyway. No point rushing him in. As you said, he's had very little football and it'd be better for him to have a bit of time with the squad before getting thrown into the deep end.
 
I've almost forgotten about him while refreshing the Sancho/Sterling threads.
 
simonhch said:
Making an investment worth 50m plus wages etc, should be looked at in the longer term, not through the lens of the first three games. Firstly Ugarte was at Copa, which meant it would always be a late signing, secondly the initial fee was 70m euros and we’ve gotten him for 50 plus 10. I would say that several weeks of negotiation, and not being available for the first three games, is worth the 10-20m euros saved. I think this is where being a grown up and professional is quite helpful when it comes to running a multi-billion pound organisation; and not being an over-excited couch muppet whose entire perspective of the future rests on a seven minute cameo at the weekend.

As for the rest of our signings, Zirkzee and Yoro were brought in very early. Earlier than most of our rivals did any business. De Ligt and Mazraoui in time for the start of the season. You may or may not have noticed, but there were two rather large international tournaments this summer, which heavily impacted most clubs ability to do business early in the window, and also meant players have come back late - needing rest - somewhat unfit and not ready to play.

Us starting the season with a “worse” midfield than this time last year is the result of years of bad squad building, not the result of not getting deals done fast enough this window. This window what was important was to (a) get the RIGHT p€layers in for our long term success (accomplished), (b) not overpay for players and change the entire narrative about United being a soft touch in the transfer market, even if this meant protracted negotiations (accomplished), and (c) shift out unwanted and unneeded players (significant progress and ongoing).

To look at the success or failure of this window through the context of the first three games is just fecking daft, and the type of reductive thinking that makes clubs buy crap players just because they are easy to sign/available. The general barrel of shite we had available on match day one was a result of years of bad dealings, not the result of this window. We should go into next season with a much better starting squad now, that can add 2-3 players to go up another level.
Click to expand...
We are free to negotiate with players and clubs at any time, including during the season, we are just not allowed to register the player till the window is open.

Our season finished on 25th May when Ugarte was presumably priced at €70m, and it's taken us over 3 months to get the deal over the line at €50+10. Two things can be true at once - firstly that is a very worthwhile saving, and secondly that is a very, very, very slow negotiation. And he's missed 3 full games because of it, and will miss a lot more games because we'll have the excuse that he's not match fit yet so he'll only get sub appearances for weeks after. The question is, how many points will starting the same midfield as last season cost us in the opening 5, 6 games? Are those points dropped in the opening months potentially going to cost us top 4 at the end of the season, causing a massive financial hit?

If I'm told I only have 2 options
1. Pay €70m outright
2. Sign him on deadline day for €50+10

I'm taking option 2 every time. But we would have to believe that you can't get a deal that suits you unless you wait till deadline day, which seems unlikely.

I didn't judge the success of the window based on 3 games. I said we'd pick up a lot more points earlier in the season if we had our signings ready for the opening games. You can have a good window without your players being ready for the opening games, but you could have an even better window and a better season if they are ready for the season.

Ultimately this will go nowhere as it will come down to whether getting a good deal was possible before deadline day, or whether it was only possible by waiting till deadline day. Which we'll never know the answer to.
 
Last edited:
Any later than 9pm would seem an odd time to announce it, if it's supposed to be a big deal/PR thing.
 
MyBloodIsRed said:
Geez we take our time…. No urgency whatsoever to get this done and have him available for Liverpool. Shocking to say the least. Let’s hope we get a result. Sunday in this doesn’t bite us..
Click to expand...
Not sure if this is serious or not.

He hasn't played since the Copa America in July. He would never have played, been lucky to even make the bench.
 
Cavani must have called him and let him know that there's no Uruguayan butcher's shop in Manchester. Deal's off. :(
 
Does he have to be announced until the transfer deadline? If he's signed all the documents(contract), I don't see what's the fuss about.
 
Im currently watching a Dutch transfer deadline show, where they are discussing Ugarte.. The guys (who actually have something solid to say about football in general and are worht listening to) mentions he loves the player Ugarta as he feels he is one of the best ballwinners and pressers in Europe, but he really isnt a fan of the transfer to United.. Reasoning is that a midfield with Ugarte (ballwinner) Mainoo (dribbler) and Bruno (creative further upfront) really lacks a lot of passing in midfield..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.