This really, not even top 10 things to discuss at all.
25
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 32
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 10
You’re baffled that a midfielder not getting on the ball would be considered relevant? I don’t know, I’ve always considered getting on the ball a pretty important job for a midfielder. Harder to concede when you have the ball. Although Onana certainly challenges that theory. One of your midfielders not getting on the ball is a pretty big part of nothing ever being on.
Not much point discussing the other issues in Ugarte’s player performance thread. I get it though. He’s Uruguayan.
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I have no idea how anyone can watch him and think he’d be fine on the ball for a midfielder in a decent team. His passing stats are easily the worst of any of our midfielders, but yeah, not McTominay.
You’re waffling. I’m not talking about our problems conceding soft goals, it’s not relevant to this discussion. You might claim he can be progressive. He’s literally never shown that in his career so I’m not sure why you think he suddenly could be in the league where you get the least time on the ball. No one is saying he needs to be Busquets, but the top versions of these types of players are comfortable passing it forward.
I’m not sure he does compared to the likes of Eriksen and Casemiro per 90? Maybe in attempted rather than completed.
People are saying that the person next to him needs to be a top passer to compliment him, however this mystical player will also need to be a monster athlete to cover the ground needed in a midfield two. If we pretend Kobbie was a really good progressive passer, would that be enough? Defensively those two haven’t really worked because Kobbie seemingly can’t recover quick enough.
Remember the days when we got frustrated because we thought Carrick was too safe in possession
we’re not a top team so no need to worry at this point, but I don’t think a top front foot team buys him.He attempted 16. He successfully played 14.
I think we kind of just have to accept Ugarte for what he is. We’ve spent big on a midfielder who excels a lot more off the ball. Tackles, interceptions, being a bit of a mad bastard — he’s top tier percentage on that stat stuff.
One day we’ll have a central midfield who excel on the ball. One day.
You’re in the Ugarte thread mate. This is where we discuss Ugarte’s performance.
Apparently that’s not necessary. Baffling to think that in fact.
You've said that we'll not get anywhere with a midfielder that makes 16 passes per game — well, he doesn't usually and he averages a decent amount (more than an average top-5 midfielder). Whenever he's good enough on the ball or not is a different issue that wasn't argued.
As demonstrated by others, he usually gets on the ball and passes it a lot more.
You are taking an abnormal sample from a game in which an already dysfunctional team is down to 10 and the job therefore becomes much less about possession or what fancy shit you can do with it and more about pulling up your sleeves and grinding it out.
I can't fault any of the players out there for the effort they put into accomplishing that in the second half, not even Onana who got joyful cheers for doing the very basics and trapping a couple of balls without spilling them.
Are we getting back to the top playing like that? Obviously not, but at least there were definite positive signs as far as getting a job done is concerned.
All the other issues are absolutely relevant. We are making do with a constantly changing patchwork of misfits unsuited to the tactics being deployed. It's a mess. We have no appropriate wingbacks, only one legit #10, no striker, feck all movement upfront, no other actual CM whose legs aren't gone and a defensive three that isn't settled and never will be with the bomb scare behind them.
You cannot properly assess a midfielders ability to get on the ball and contribute in that car crash scenario, not for one whose main job and skillset doesn't revolve around that at all.
Him being Uruguayan is only relevant insofar as I have actually seen him in settled/functional sides and his contribution has never been a cause for concern. I have higher expectations in that regard from Valverde and Bentancur, but I've never seen Ugarte as a problem.
In fact, back when we were chasing him during the summer I mentioned his shortcomings on the ball usually surface when injuries and makeshift/mad Bielsa tactics place him in unfamiliar surroundings. This is so because his #1 priority is safety and not giving the ball away (because, indeed, rivals can't score without it), so he can go into a shell a bit too much except for diagonal balls out wide, he has a distinct knack for anticipating the runs and pulling those off really well.
Unsurprising, seeing as that's what Amorim's tactics drilled him for. Unfortunately, playing for the NT he has actual proper widemen, including Maxi Araujo who shat on City when they visited Sporting earlier this year. We don't though, we have Mazraoui and Dalot and right now essentially play a back 5.
Performances and the context of these go hand in hand, so yes, context belongs in this thread too.
I was talking about his performance last night and inability to get on the ball was a problem. I’m not sure why that baffled you.
And teams need that in their midfield. Your midfield is composed of multiple profiles. Ugarte is absolutely good enough for big teams and I have 0 concerns about him. He's very good on the ball anyway. He's not progressive or creative, but he's safe, can keep it well under pressure and keeps things ticking. We need depth for him, but he helps others play better and that's key.
If we are going down the path of Amorims 3-4-2-1, I think he's one of the easiest picks in our squad to be here and still be a starter for the next 3 seasons. Every other position in the 11 I'd say has more uncertainty than his for the time being.
Well it wasn't really when you consider the context
Brilliant player, loved that tussle with Delap. Kept his cool even though Delap was trying to instigate something. One of the few bright spots in the team.
Does he average more than a top 5 midfielder? His passes attempted per 90 is low, lowest of any of our midfielders. My other posts show that I definitely am saying he’s not good enough on the ball, im not claiming he only makes 16 passes every game.
Hopefully as the players learn the system better, he improves with them. He’s obviously not the main problem in the team, but it’s just frustrating that we keep signing players with such obvious weaknesses.
In the PL since joining he averages 43 passes attempted a game which puts him 31st percentile. He’s then bottom 18th for progressive passes, and bottom 18th for progressive carries. His stat profile on FBRef really does sum him up as a player — freakish tackler, high level interceptor, not too much else going on.
Agree on the profile points. Disagree on your assessment of him. I’m not saying Ugarte is one of our major problem points. I just think - like every midfielder we’ve seemed to have recruited over the last however many years - whilst Ugarte has some clear top level strengths, he comes with some very apparent flaws too.
I’m not bemoaning him particularly — Ugarte can definitely play a role in this squad. I’m just more how we’ve neglected signing proper quality well rounded central midfielders who excel on the ball. We’ve got a chance to fix the midfield profiles when we boot off Casemiro and Eriksen; here’s hoping we do it.
Its also why Amorim has started shifting him wide during our buildup, making our buildup shape a 3-1, with Bruno in front of the 3 CBs.
With Ugarte in the team, we are basically a player down during buildup. That's why we keep passing the ball sideways between CBs, because none of our 2 CMs are great at taking the ball from them and moving it up the pitch. Casemiro, Bruno, Mainoo, Collyer none of them are great at it.
You dont need a genius to figure out why thats not working.
That's one of Mainoo's strenghts no? Being able to receive and not lose the ball under pressure.
It was.
Yeah, I’ve noticed that. I’m not sure that’s working.
You've not watched him closely enough for us then cause I've seen plenty of times he can pass progressively and stop talking about something you clearly can't back up.I have no idea how anyone can watch him and think he’d be fine on the ball for a midfielder in a decent team. His passing stats are easily the worst of any of our midfielders, but yeah, not McTominay.
You’re waffling. I’m not talking about our problems conceding soft goals, it’s not relevant to this discussion. You might claim he can be progressive. He’s literally never shown that in his career so I’m not sure why you think he suddenly could be in the league where you get the least time on the ball. No one is saying he needs to be Busquets, but the top versions of these types of players are comfortable passing it forward.
I’m not sure he does compared to the likes of Eriksen and Casemiro per 90? Maybe in attempted rather than completed.
People are saying that the person next to him needs to be a top passer to compliment him, however this mystical player will also need to be a monster athlete to cover the ground needed in a midfield two. If we pretend Kobbie was a really good progressive passer, would that be enough? Defensively those two haven’t really worked because Kobbie seemingly can’t recover quick enough.
Remember the days when we got frustrated because we thought Carrick was too safe in possession
playing with 10 men, asked to do more off the ball, this stat being an outlier of his statistic so far this season means it's a problem? sure buddy
In the game being discussed? Yes it was. Everybody was asked to do more off the ball. Some were able to do more with it.
I don’t know all the statistics for myself but I saw somebody saw he’s in the 31st percentile for passes attempted this season. That’s not really good enough is it?
I just compared him to Casemiro for passing and he attempts less and is also less progressive which would seem obvious. Casemiro also makes and wins more tackles than him, has more blocks and is obviously considerably better in the air. That’s this season.
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...4-2025&player_id2=4d224fe8&p2yrfrom=2024-2025
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...4-2025&player_id2=4d224fe8&p2yrfrom=2024-2025
I think you are being over the top without applying more context.
Ugarte to touch more the ball also needs mates that actually want to have the ball, to retain it, to circulate it, to offer themselves in proper positions. Also not few times United defenders are the ones that have the ball more, passing it within each other and later launching a long ball. Also Bruno not few times goes very deep beside them and he normally: pass it within the backline, carries a little and plays it to the flanks, or he tries some very vertical attemp...this happens time and again.
In fact Licha was one of the players that interact with him more and this also plays into the equation.
Regarding him with the ball at his feet, he ain't a marvel, yet he ain't a bricklayer, nor lacked confidence to attemp some great play or move, he did that in plenty of ocassions. What is needed more from him now, it's more involvmente in the build up in the retention, yet the team it's not doing that in the mid, so it will be harder to do it with this strategy United it's applying. He is not a player that will normally break a few lines, yet he is more than capable of passing it, of holding it.
FBref can be very misleading, look at Emerson from Atalanta as a good example, it's basically unanimous that he'd be in a serie A team of the season so far but fbref makes him out to be pretty average.
Ugarte two best games this season came against city away and Liverpool away. You won't find many players in the PL who have their two games of the season at the two toughest possible away grounds.
I haven’t watched him so can’t really comment. Number of passes or tackles isn’t really subjective though.
Him having his best games in those fixtures is indicative of the type of player I think he probably is. The kind of player you put in to do a job when you’re up against it but isn’t really going to help you keep the ball.
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They are the games that suit him, because we’re not setting up to control the games but to disrupt them and try to nick it. This is exactly why he’s not really good enough for a top team as he’s too limited for most of the games. It’s exactly why PSG were happy for him to go.
He would be even better as a number 6 in a standard 4-3-3 formation with 2 progressive passers ahead of him. Who knows, might happen in the very near future.
So you can state that you’ve seen something and are correct, but I need to back up my opinion because I’ve not watched him close enough
https://fbref.com/en/squads/19538871/Manchester-United-Stats
There you go. You can see Ugarte’s progressive passing is lower than any of our other midfielders, including Casemiro, who has played less minutes and plays in a similar way to Ugarte.
You’re welcome to go and compare him to other players on there, such as Caicedo, who has triple the amount. Or defensive midfielders for teams close to us in the league, who also have double the amount of Ugarte. This is consistent throughout his career and was raised as an issue when signing him. We’ll struggle to make it work with three central defenders.
Yeah but anyone watching can see that Casemiro turns the ball over when pressed while Ugarte is fairly secure in possession
Ugarte has been decent for us. We didn’t get fleeced on the fee either. He obviously has flaws in his forward passing game but we knew that. He helps us out of possession and in counter pressing. If we can sign a good progressive passer next to him he will be an asset.
He’s young too.
He’s young too.
No he won't he would leave team exposed his skill set isn't compatible to being single pivot .
Agree with this, think he’d be good with a play making CM.
I don’t need to compare him to anyone else, I’m happy with his performances and happy we have him in the team.So you can state that you’ve seen something and are correct, but I need to back up my opinion because I’ve not watched him close enough
https://fbref.com/en/squads/19538871/Manchester-United-Stats
There you go. You can see Ugarte’s progressive passing is lower than any of our other midfielders, including Casemiro, who has played less minutes and plays in a similar way to Ugarte.
You’re welcome to go and compare him to other players on there, such as Caicedo, who has triple the amount. Or defensive midfielders for teams close to us in the league, who also have double the amount of Ugarte. This is consistent throughout his career and was raised as an issue when signing him. We’ll struggle to make it work with three central defenders.
You can wish we had anyone you want instead but Ugarte is not an issue in the team and 100% not a priority issue affecting teammates around him.
Why propagate this 16 passes number like that is the norm? He averages 43 in the PL this season with an 89% completion rate, what's the problem?
Nobody is gonna take you seriously mate peddling statistics from one game as if that's a sufficient sample size to judge on. A game where Utd went down to 10 before HT and got dominated in possession in the 2nd half no less.
My observations aren’t based on one game, this just happened to be the most recent game.
I posted some stats that show his struggles in progressing the ball compared to other defensive-minded midfielders in the league. Completion rate is one of those stats that definitely need context, of course that will be high if he’s not moving it forward.
I have no issue if people think that we can pair him with a top passer and suddenly everything will be fine. I doubt that will work with a back three, but I understand the logic. I do take issue with people telling me he has no issues progressing the ball.
Well yeah, he gives the ball away more. He also tries much more expansive passes too. What was more interesting to me is that Casemiro is quite a bit better defensively. And that’s the current version of Casemiro.
Like I've said before, he plays in a team that the main player to do them it's quite trigger happy with his passes and that the one left in defense (Harry) with a bit of that progressing passing, has a style more prone to very long balls over the mid, than to filtrate shorter ones to the mid (Licha).
The team doesn't have any real tempo manager or ball retention player in it, not even an offensive mid with a dribble in it to gain some air. The majority struggle with ball retention under pression and Ugarte it's most of the times the only more defensive oriented player in the whole mid...so would be clever for Ugarte to try more progressive passes by himself? more when HE would be the one with the main task of recover it?...nah, he is certainly trying to be more tidy than he should or can, yet in current stage that's more a sympton of the team disposition and atributes (and lack of them) than anything else.
When Garnacho and Amad have to risk constantly to create sthg, Bruno receives it and sometimes he instantly tries sthg., or Dalot gets dizzy, etc...the ball is coming back at United too fast many times and that becomes: HIS PROBLEM, being the main defensive player in the team.
So context it's very important here, not implying he has a Busquets in him, yet he is not a bricklayer, he actually played more freely/daring at moments when the team had more control, Bruno was more calm in a certain game, Licha feeding him more frequently, even if not the greatest of enviroments, when United played more in control, he was more involved. I don't see a player that actually struggles that much with the ball in a more balanced team in terms of strategy.
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What’s the point in asking me to back up my opinion if you don’t care. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but don’t just shoot down other opinions, even when presented with data.
Saying that, I also remember your opinion on Marcus Smith, so I’ll take your opinion on Ugarte with a pinch of salt
Marcus Smith is trash in an England shirt. Finn Smith will take that jersey now. M Smith might squeak in as a full back but he’s not very good there either!What’s the point in asking me to back up my opinion if you don’t care. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but don’t just shoot down other opinions, even when presented with data.
Saying that, I also remember your opinion on Marcus Smith, so I’ll take your opinion on Ugarte with a pinch of salt
I not the one saying Ugarte is causing his teammates problems with his lack of passing and saying I was waffling when telling you I think there are a lot of bigger problems in the team. Passing stats are all well and good but I prefer to go off my eye test then count how many passes a player has made.
Delap who is a big guy trying to knock him over 3 times in 5 seconds and failing was quite satisfying to watch