Manchester United view sidelining Marcus Rashford as key to cultural reboot

Ludens the Red said:


With Carragher on this. It is genuinely staggering that this debate is still being had. The narrative that Wright and Neville are peddling here. I actually don’t think folk like Wrighty do him any favours suggesting his ability is on par with Saka/Salah/Mane.
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Same here. I could understand nev thinking this but Wrighty, no idea.
 
Ludens the Red said:


With Carragher on this. It is genuinely staggering that this debate is still being had. The narrative that Wright and Neville are peddling here. I actually don’t think folk like Wrighty do him any favours suggesting his ability is on par with Saka/Salah/Mane.
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Living across the pond, I’ve gotta say, I’m totally stumped by how Gary Neville—who strikes me as a third-rate thinker—has managed to become such a massive punditry force in the UK. Every matchday he’s right there being as irritating as ever, tossing out the same bland takes with zero bite or originality. Yet somehow, year after year, his influence just keeps increasing, more match day commentary, punditry, podcasting etc. Honestly, it’s shocking.

And now here he goes again, trotting out another laughably clueless take, this time bigging up a washed-up player who’s basically been coasting since that one good season before he signed his extension. Since then, the guy’s done sweet nothing—yet somehow he’s still considered a catch for half the top European clubs. What a joke
 
Ian should pressure Arsenal to buy this Saka's level player, if he actually believes his own words.

Otherwise, he'd look like just another attention-seeking pundit, trying to be different.
 
I'm stunned at how much drama this frankly ordinary and lazy player is causing.

I swear we got rid of Beckham and Stam with less fuss.
 
Isotope said:
Ian should pressure Arsenal to buy this Saka's level player, if he actually believes his own words.

Otherwise, he'd look like just another attention-seeking pundit, trying to be different.
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Arsenal should throw in another 50m in transfer feed too for this generational talent.
 
Wherever he goes he’ll be brilliant for a year or two, then he’ll drop off. We’ve seen the story many times.
 
stepic said:
You just repeated yourself while failing to acknowledge the fact he is being criticised primarily because of his performances, not the colour of his skin.

If he was performing as well as Palmer do you think there would be any criticism of his clothing? Or if he was hanging out with rappers? Of course not.

Is his poor performances and general attitude an opportunity for racists to weigh in? Sure, of course. Racists will take advantage of any opportunity to spout their bullshit. But it’s not the primary factor at play here. The first team has had loads of black players throughout the years, some of them which are loved as icons to this day.
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Based on your posts, you don't have the breadth of experience nor the breadth of knowledge to debate me on this topic. The idea that Palmer is treated differently only because he is performing better is a factual fallacy. In fact, there have been literal studies done on how people will negatively perceive a black person differently than a white person who is wearing the same clothes or displaying the same behaviors.

Yes a black person dressing like a rapper will be treated differently than a white person dressing like a rapper irregardless of their stature or performance. You should probably do some research on racial microagressions(probably your 1st time hearing the phrase) before you try to have this debate. You are just factually wrong.

Interesting that you mentioned black players but conveniently failed to mention that most have experienced racism. Yorke and Cole have both spoken out about the racism they experienced. Can't mention them being "loved" without mentioning the racism they experienced. Stop telling half truths..if you have to tell a half truth to make a point then you really have no point.

In essence, I am telling you that 1 + 1= 2 and I can prove to you that 1 + 1=2 based on data, research, and people's lived experiences..and you are saying I am wrong because that doesn't align with your world views. No, that's not how the world works.

You are providing opinions based on absolutely nothing. I am providing facts based on decades of research. We are not the same.
 
TsuWave said:
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Ian, according to wiki, you scored 30 goals in 4 successive seasons and plenty of 20+ goal seasons around that, with only one not so good season in nine years. Different times and all but if Rashford was operating on that level with similar goal returns, this debate would be a lot less one-sided.
 
EnviedRed said:
Based on your posts, you don't have the breadth of experience nor the breadth of knowledge to debate me on this topic. The idea that Palmer is treated differently only because he is performing better is a factual fallacy. In fact, there have been literal studies done on how people will negatively perceive a black person differently than a white person who is wearing the same clothes or displaying the same behaviors.

Yes a black person dressing like a rapper will be treated differently than a white person dressing like a rapper irregardless of their stature or performance. You should probably do some research on racial microagressions(probably your 1st time hearing the phrase) before you try to have this debate. You are just factually wrong.

Interesting that you mentioned black players but conveniently failed to mention that most have experienced racism. Yorke and Cole have both spoken out about the racism they experienced. Can't mention them being "loved" without mentioning the racism they experienced. Stop telling half truths..if you have to tell a half truth to make a point then you really have no point.

In essence, I am telling you that 1 + 1= 2 and I can prove to you that 1 + 1=2 based on data, research, and people's lived experiences..and you are saying I am wrong because that doesn't align with your world views. No, that's not how the world works.

You are providing opinions based on absolutely nothing. I am providing facts based on decades of research. We are not the same.
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Nothing says "I’m right and you’re stupid" quite like tossing around vague references to "decades of research" without naming a single study. It’s almost charming how you’ve convinced yourself that sneering condescension counts as intellectual rigor.

Keep swinging that empty bat champ!
 
man.
This club is so tiresome.
Bench one mediocre player so you have better chance of winning, and all his mates on social media will write about it for months.
Who cares about United the football club as long as our players can put minimum effort every week and earn a fortune , that's all good.
 
VP said:
I'm stunned at how much drama this frankly ordinary and lazy player is causing.

I swear we got rid of Beckham and Stam with less fuss.
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This player that we have spoken about every single day across multiple outlets analysing his every movement for the last 5 years is leaving and its causing a drama. You don't say...

This thread and whole situation is fecking tiresome.

He's become the poster boy for the club's failure because as fans, we always need a poster boy for the club's failure. Fans constantly talk about wider structural issues them seemingly put the entire blame of our problems on one or two individuals.

It was Ashley Young and Fellaini in 2014.
It was Smalling in 2015.
It was Lukaku, Pogba, Lingard etc
It's been McTominay, Fred etc

It was Maguire a couple of years ago and, now, after a couple of half decent performances, he should sign a new contract.

When every player leaves, its highlighted as the "key to United's progress" or "cultural reset". Ultimately, very little changes.

I'm just buzzing for the next scapegoat. Maybe Mainoo is gonna wear a funny hat two weeks after we lose a match. Perhaps Amad will go a few games without scoring but starts a campaign that results in peace across the Middle East. "PRmad Diallo" will be the comment on here.
 
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Suedesi said:
Living across the pond, I’ve gotta say, I’m totally stumped by how Gary Neville—who strikes me as a third-rate thinker—has managed to become such a massive punditry force in the UK. Every matchday he’s right there being as irritating as ever, tossing out the same bland takes with zero bite or originality. Yet somehow, year after year, his influence just keeps increasing, more match day commentary, punditry, podcasting etc. Honestly, it’s shocking.

And now here he goes again, trotting out another laughably clueless take, this time bigging up a washed-up player who’s basically been coasting since that one good season before he signed his extension. Since then, the guy’s done sweet nothing—yet somehow he’s still considered a catch for half the top European clubs. What a joke
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Neville was a good pundit back in the day but he’s become very bad over the last few years. I think it’s a mixture of not wanting to upset people and feeling that he has to stick by whatever he has previously said regardless.

He’s a lot better as a tv personality (see the overlap and stick to football stuff and this is probably why he’s still very popular) and I do like him in those settings but any sort of football analysis and you just roll your eyes at him. He says a lot of really bizarre things.

Carragher is streets ahead of him with the punditry now. Mainly because Carragher literally doesn’t give a feck who he upsets (even Liverpool and Salah) he just says it how it is and will admit if he’s wrong and change his views accordingly. He was one of the first pundits to point out how bad ETH was tactically whilst the others sat there trotting out shite about ‘time’ and ‘squad’ and ownership etc.
 
EnviedRed said:
Yes a black person dressing like a rapper will be treated differently than a white person dressing like a rapper irregardless of their stature or performance. You should probably do some research on racial microagressions(probably your 1st time hearing the phrase) before you try to have this debate. You are just factually wrong.
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So if Maguire goes to an NBA game in America dressed like Rashford was, in an international break and our new manager's first week in charge, on the back of 18 months of dire performances where he looks like he doesn't give a shit about the game or the club - he isn't getting the same level of abuse or worse? Come off it. He was literally receiving bomb threats at one point.

While there are absolutely racists who target players because of the colour of their skin it's hard to argue that is the driving force here with Rashford, and being perfectly blunt I think his PR team are cynically exploiting his race just as they have his working class background.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Neville was a good pundit back in the day but he’s become very bad over the last few years. I think it’s a mixture of not wanting to upset people and feeling that he has to stick by whatever he has previously said regardless.

He’s a lot better as a tv personality (see the overlap and stick to football stuff and this is probably why he’s still very popular) and I do like him in those settings but any sort of football analysis and you just roll your eyes at him. He says a lot of really bizarre things.

Carragher is streets ahead of him with the punditry now. Mainly because Carragher literally doesn’t give a feck who he upsets (even Liverpool and Salah) he just says it how it is and will admit if he’s wrong and change his views accordingly. He was one of the first pundits to point out how bad ETH was tactically whilst the others sat there trotting out shite about ‘time’ and ‘squad’ and ownership etc.
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I just don’t see the appeal with him. He’s clearly not a top-tier pundit. Despite having an army of data analysts at Sky backing him, he rarely delivers incisive, well-articulated tactical insights. Compare that to the sharp, off-the-cuff analyses Mourinho, Klopp, or Wenger offer whenever they make a guest appearenace on a match — there’s no contest.

As for the claim that "he doesn’t want to upset anyone," his bland, uninspired opinions end up alienating everyone. Carra, by contrast, is miles ahead
 
EnviedRed said:
Based on your posts, you don't have the breadth of experience nor the breadth of knowledge to debate me on this topic. The idea that Palmer is treated differently only because he is performing better is a factual fallacy. In fact, there have been literal studies done on how people will negatively perceive a black person differently than a white person who is wearing the same clothes or displaying the same behaviors.

Yes a black person dressing like a rapper will be treated differently than a white person dressing like a rapper irregardless of their stature or performance. You should probably do some research on racial microagressions(probably your 1st time hearing the phrase) before you try to have this debate. You are just factually wrong.

Interesting that you mentioned black players but conveniently failed to mention that most have experienced racism. Yorke and Cole have both spoken out about the racism they experienced. Can't mention them being "loved" without mentioning the racism they experienced. Stop telling half truths..if you have to tell a half truth to make a point then you really have no point.

In essence, I am telling you that 1 + 1= 2 and I can prove to you that 1 + 1=2 based on data, research, and people's lived experiences..and you are saying I am wrong because that doesn't align with your world views. No, that's not how the world works.

You are providing opinions based on absolutely nothing. I am providing facts based on decades of research. We are not the same.
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:lol:

Christ. For such a self proclaimed enlightened individual you possess no discernible self awareness, otherwise you’d realise what an insufferable prick you sound like.

Literally no one here is denying that racism exists. What people are saying is that not every criticism of a black player is rooted in racism.

The root cause of the criticism Rashford has received is his performances on the pitch, and his general lack of effort. Do you deny that?
 
EnviedRed said:
Based on your posts, you don't have the breadth of experience nor the breadth of knowledge to debate me on this topic. The idea that Palmer is treated differently only because he is performing better is a factual fallacy. In fact, there have been literal studies done on how people will negatively perceive a black person differently than a white person who is wearing the same clothes or displaying the same behaviors.

Yes a black person dressing like a rapper will be treated differently than a white person dressing like a rapper irregardless of their stature or performance. You should probably do some research on racial microagressions(probably your 1st time hearing the phrase) before you try to have this debate. You are just factually wrong.

Interesting that you mentioned black players but conveniently failed to mention that most have experienced racism. Yorke and Cole have both spoken out about the racism they experienced. Can't mention them being "loved" without mentioning the racism they experienced. Stop telling half truths..if you have to tell a half truth to make a point then you really have no point.

In essence, I am telling you that 1 + 1= 2 and I can prove to you that 1 + 1=2 based on data, research, and people's lived experiences..and you are saying I am wrong because that doesn't align with your world views. No, that's not how the world works.

You are providing opinions based on absolutely nothing. I am providing facts based on decades of research. We are not the same.
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There's no doubt that actual racists have jumped at the opportunity to get on the bandwagon and have their say. There probably also has been a very small amount of unconscious racist language that has been used. However I do stress the 'very small' amount, and it's not the cause for any of the criticism.

I've said before that Pogba was certainly the victim of unconscious racism and I'd often be uncomfortable with some of the things said about him. But in terms of what is said on here and in the general media I really don't see it with Rashford (I don't go on the cesspool that is twitter so can't say if it's true there). The 'rapper' thing is borderline, but I remember the same being said about Brandon Williams so it's not like it's only limited to black players. It's more of a catch-all for wearing a lot of bling.
 
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EnviedRed said:
Based on your posts, you don't have the breadth of experience nor the breadth of knowledge to debate me on this topic. The idea that Palmer is treated differently only because he is performing better is a factual fallacy. In fact, there have been literal studies done on how people will negatively perceive a black person differently than a white person who is wearing the same clothes or displaying the same behaviors.

Yes a black person dressing like a rapper will be treated differently than a white person dressing like a rapper irregardless of their stature or performance. You should probably do some research on racial microagressions(probably your 1st time hearing the phrase) before you try to have this debate. You are just factually wrong.

Interesting that you mentioned black players but conveniently failed to mention that most have experienced racism. Yorke and Cole have both spoken out about the racism they experienced. Can't mention them being "loved" without mentioning the racism they experienced. Stop telling half truths..if you have to tell a half truth to make a point then you really have no point.

In essence, I am telling you that 1 + 1= 2 and I can prove to you that 1 + 1=2 based on data, research, and people's lived experiences..and you are saying I am wrong because that doesn't align with your world views. No, that's not how the world works.

You are providing opinions based on absolutely nothing. I am providing facts based on decades of research. We are not the same.
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Whilst I agree the rashford criticism is way over the top, I don’t think it’s anything to do with racism (for the majority anyway).

The caf has, and has always had a weird opinions on how a player should or should not dress. I remember a post from way back when there was an image of the likes of Rooney, Scholes, Rio, Smith, Oshea etc wearing normal clothes, and a bunch of people were criticizing them wearing ripped jeans or baggy jeans etc. It’s just really weird.
 
EnviedRed said:
Based on your posts, you don't have the breadth of experience nor the breadth of knowledge to debate me on this topic. The idea that Palmer is treated differently only because he is performing better is a factual fallacy. In fact, there have been literal studies done on how people will negatively perceive a black person differently than a white person who is wearing the same clothes or displaying the same behaviors.

Yes a black person dressing like a rapper will be treated differently than a white person dressing like a rapper irregardless of their stature or performance. You should probably do some research on racial microagressions(probably your 1st time hearing the phrase) before you try to have this debate. You are just factually wrong.

Interesting that you mentioned black players but conveniently failed to mention that most have experienced racism. Yorke and Cole have both spoken out about the racism they experienced. Can't mention them being "loved" without mentioning the racism they experienced. Stop telling half truths..if you have to tell a half truth to make a point then you really have no point.

In essence, I am telling you that 1 + 1= 2 and I can prove to you that 1 + 1=2 based on data, research, and people's lived experiences..and you are saying I am wrong because that doesn't align with your world views. No, that's not how the world works.

You are providing opinions based on absolutely nothing. I am providing facts based on decades of research. We are not the same.
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I don't think the comment is helpful, of course racism is abhorrent, and I'm sure Rashford has been a victim of it,at times but our own "fan" base.


However, I really don't see how race is a major player in the opinions fans have for Rashford. And that's coming from someone who wants him to stay.


Was McTominay admonished for being Scottish, was Maguire being
 
Attila said:
Crucial first step or disgraceful way to treat club legend Rashford...
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Rashford isn't a club legend at all. Just a miserable kid who had only 2 good seasons. His PR is really good, but his performance is awful. Mourinho said about 2 years ago that when he was the coach he saw three players who should have been released because the club will never be successful while they are at the club, and these players are still at the club. It's no secret that one of them was Rashford. Everyone can see how right he was.
 
Infestissumam said:
there's nothing disgraceful about demanding a certain standard, especially when you're a senior player on high wages. You're supposed to set an example for younger players to follow. Pretty simple concept really, and Rashford has fallen short of even the most lenient expectations for a couple of years now. Thoroughly outplayed and outworked by hungrier players. I have no idea if there's even a market for him, given the combination of poor play and high wages, but if there is, it's go time.
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You are absolutely right. I really think that Rash should go to the saudi league. He seems like someone who simply lost interest in football (no matter how much he claims otherwise) he could get some high money there and the whole saudi league woud be very happy to see him there.
 
I noticed the argument that the club let Rashford down pops up from time to time with some even comparing him to Salah. It got me thinking about Kevin Phillips. He scored 30 PL goals in the 99/00 season in 36 games winning the golden boot while playing for Sunderland. So, who do you think is better between Phillips and Rashford?
 
Suedesi said:
Living across the pond, I’ve gotta say, I’m totally stumped by how Gary Neville—who strikes me as a third-rate thinker—has managed to become such a massive punditry force in the UK. Every matchday he’s right there being as irritating as ever, tossing out the same bland takes with zero bite or originality. Yet somehow, year after year, his influence just keeps increasing, more match day commentary, punditry, podcasting etc. Honestly, it’s shocking.

And now here he goes again, trotting out another laughably clueless take, this time bigging up a washed-up player who’s basically been coasting since that one good season before he signed his extension. Since then, the guy’s done sweet nothing—yet somehow he’s still considered a catch for half the top European clubs. What a joke
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Consider the audience. Pump out a bit of anti-United vitriol and the viewers lap it up.
 


0 goals in 365 days, 1 assist this season, party and pub lifestyle, £100m price tag, historically horrible run of form with the club but we see 20 questions with Grealish instead of 20 hit pieces from the Torygraph with Rashford :lol:

Very curious indeed
 
Calling Rashford a legend while there's ongoing arguments about why Ronaldo is not one...quite amusing
 
Rashford kept Amad out of the side under ten Hag based on reputation, imagine if he'd have been rightfully benched a season ago.
 
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Ted Lasso said:
Calling Rashford a legend while there's ongoing arguments about why Ronaldo is not one...quite amusing
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Yep, just ludicrous.
The best player in one of our best ever teams, and only player to win the b'allon dor with us since the Trinity.
Versus a guy who has been here 10 years and had perhaps 3 strong seasons.

That said, it feels ludicrous that anyone is trying to heap anywhere near all our problems on him.
 
VP said:
I'm stunned at how much drama this frankly ordinary and lazy player is causing.

I swear we got rid of Beckham and Stam with less fuss.
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Because united are rubbish, it's easy to complain about whatever the club does. I was listening to the Game podcast by the times and one of them said that if United lost to city, people would have blamed Amorim for dropping Rashford "because of how he dresses". I think the journo meant that as a criticism of Amorin but it showed how shallow their thinking is.

If United are losing, any action they take is wrong according to some people.
 
Rolaholic said:


0 goals in 365 days, 1 assist this season, party and pub lifestyle, £100m price tag, historically horrible run of form with the club but we see 20 questions with Grealish instead of 20 hit pieces from the Torygraph with Rashford :lol:

Very curious indeed
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Why do you think that is?
 
Sandikan said:
Yep, just ludicrous.
The best player in one of our best ever teams, and only player to win the b'allon dor with us since the Trinity.
Versus a guy who has been here 10 years and had perhaps 3 strong seasons.

That said, it feels ludicrous that anyone is trying to heap anywhere near all our problems on him.
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I was hoping Amorin would get him to snap out of whatever funk he's in.

Messaging seems like it may wind up being a mutual departure. My useless thought here being, If it gets to that point it would be good for both sides and if it doesn't then it means a Rashford getting back to some of his best.
 
Rolaholic said:


0 goals in 365 days, 1 assist this season, party and pub lifestyle, £100m price tag, historically horrible run of form with the club but we see 20 questions with Grealish instead of 20 hit pieces from the Torygraph with Rashford :lol:

Very curious indeed
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This is England innit lad
 
Ted Lasso said:
Calling Rashford a legend while there's ongoing arguments about why Ronaldo is not one...quite amusing
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No one is calling Rashford a legend apart from a select few online in here and social media, if that's where you choose to take your information from then More fool you.
 
Champ said:
No one is calling Rashford a legend apart from a select few online in here and social media, if that's where you choose to take your information from then More fool you.
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It's the very first post of this entire thread...champ.
 
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