These type of threads happen because some people think Pep and Jose have magical problems that other managers do not have.
Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"
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These type of threads happen because some people think Pep and Jose have magical problems that other managers do not have.
I was just thinking of that post
Sometimes in life, in everything you do, you need some luck!
Jose got lucky and won the CL with Porto which allowed him to get the Chelsea job with a big blank check to build a strong team and start his legacy;
Pep got lucky that he was called to coach a Barcelona team that had in his ranks one of the greatest player of all time and some of the best players in world football! Anyone coaching that team would have done wonders.
These type of threads happen because some people decided to give them the PL trophy before even the season started! Because some people decided that they were the best just because of their past history instead of waiting to see how they do with their new teams.
I remember the narrative on this forum was that we'll going to challenge for the title and that we, along with City, had the best squad in the league; evidently now the it has changed and most will want to convince you that the team is weak and we need 4/5/6 new world class players to be challenging again! It is strange, the 2 managers have found a way to blind some people and make them accept anything to justify their failures!
What an easy bs excuse, "luck". Was it lucky that he won Europa league with Porto too?
He won CL and he got rewarded with bigger job.
For Pep I might agree but would rather wait to see how his Man City stint pans out. Failure to deliver at Man city would put his abilities under doubt.
Jose success wasnt from being lucky cos he won the UEFA cup with same Porto the previous year. Jose was also successful at Chelsea twice, at Inter and at Madrid. That is well beyond luck. One may not like his methodology or antics, but Jose gets results.
Poch, as much as I like him, has yet to deliver even a LC after 3 seasons. Next season is probably make or break for him and the squad.
Tuchel was average at Mainz. That could be due to the quality of players but he is yet to take Dortmund any closer to their peak under klopp (interestingly a predecessor to tuchel at Mainz as well). I wont get my hopes up on it happening. I think fans simply loves his open approach and use of youth, but the lack of attention to defensive makes it unlikely for his team to win silverware
Jardim has been at Monaco for 3 seasons as well and seems he would win ligue 1 this time but that is not enough to elevate him to the highest tier in coaching. His achievement would put him on par with Ranieri, who I think is under appreciated as a manager but also not at the topmost level.
Then you are a mind reader albeit not a good one
So you won't answer my question?
As soon as you provide some evidence of me claiming Pep is faultless, absolutely
See the post above. You said you'd belong to Pepism if you were religious.
Over to you.
Other than playing nicer attacking football this season, which one could argue with the likes of Sterling, Aguero, KDB and Silva already established at the club was never going to be the issue, has Pep had a better season than JM/Klopp/Wenger?
I'd say not.
I'd say not.
I can't comment on his Europa league triumph as I didn't watch that competition at that time and never been interested by it even now! But his CL success with Porto was a result of his defensive tactic and some luck. I bring on the luck factory because Porto were not the stand out team in every game they played, and, in a knock out competition, you need some luck to go through. There are some teams who makr their own luck, like Barcelona in 2009, United in 2008 or LVG Ajax in 1994 and where the best team in the tournament and deserved to win it; but Porto were not like that, they needed some luck to win it.
I agree with most of what you say, but what I wanted to say is that Pep and Jose got success at the right moment that allowed them to be rewarded by great blank check to build their legacy! If Jose didn't win the CL that year, maybe he'd not have been considered by Chelsea and never become the manager we know today; or if Pep didn't have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Puyol,... maybe he'd still struggling to build a dominant side with that Barcelona squad the same way he's struggling with City and at some extent with Bayern!
It's a personal opinion, of course but, this 2 next seasons will determine and tell the truth about the state of the 2 managers; anything then 1 major trophy (PL or CL) within that period will tarnish their reputation.
I think the challenge is more on Jose's side because he has to deliver that trophy and find the way to satisfy the United fans with a brand of football he never play and succeed with it before.
So stronger teams makes their own luck, smaller teams flukes it. Nice.
The notion that Pep was 'lucky' at Barca is laughable really. He rebuilt the confidence of Rijkaard's divided, clique ridden and self doubting side and turned into a machine that defined European football for half a decade. As for Moutinho at Porto, he had luck in one game in the champions league in 2004 Vs us at OT. In the rest of the games his side were simply better than that opposition. Just like in his treble season at Inter
A manager wins a treble, goes toe-to-toe with the best manager ever and wins back-to back Premiere league titles, then wins the Treble again, then wins the league against a Barcelona side that many thought was the best team ever, then comes back to the PL and wins the league again.
Jose's Porto-Chelsea-Inter period cemented him as one of the best coaches in the modern game. If Jose wins another Champions League or has success in the Euro/World cup then he will be only behind the likes of Ferguson, Clough, Cruyff, Herrera etc.
You are right that its your opinion, but if Mourinho is still unproven to you then are there only 10-20 managers in the history of football that are proven to you?
I also like how he claims there wasn't an element of luck in United's 2008 win. I mean Terry slipped in the match sealing pen but that's not luck compared to Porto's win that was cemented with a 3-0 final win against Mónaco.
As for man city under Pep. I find them better to watch than both his Barca and Bayern teams. Especially because he is not using that level of player to turn in the style.
He sorts out his full backs and the clinicallity in front of goal post summer and they'll take some stopping.
He sorts out his full backs and the clinicallity in front of goal post summer and they'll take some stopping.
That's merely evidence that I am not religious and that I greatly admire Pep, still no evidence of me asserting he is faultless - your mindreading notwithstanding
I agree. I really like this City side but then again you could argue that Pellegrini had them playing nice stuff anyway but it has evidently gone up a level aesthetically.
I hope we beat them to Aurier and Mendy otherwise they'll be out of reach for us.
Lets put ti this way. I'm not claiming you think he's faultless. I'm just asking for your opinion, what are his faults?
I wonder if you'll avoid it again with another question or put an honest answer.
I am not questioning his past achievements as no one can denied or erase it even if he benefited from some advantages to be able to compete against the best!
A manager wins a treble, goes toe-to-toe with the best manager ever and wins back-to back Premiere league titles, then wins the Treble again, then wins the league against a Barcelona side that many thought was the best team ever, then comes back to the PL and wins the league again.
Jose's Porto-Chelsea-Inter period cemented him as one of the best coaches in the modern game. If Jose wins another Champions League or has success in the Euro/World cup then he will be only behind the likes of Ferguson, Clough, Cruyff, Herrera etc.
You are right that its your opinion, but if Mourinho is still unproven to you then are there only 10-20 managers in the history of football that are proven to you?
He came in England and benefited from the big advantage of having more money to spend then everyone, he found United in a rebuilding process and trying to accommodate more young and new players, as soon as SAF got everything right, Jose failed to win again and was soon sacked!
He then went in Italy to manage a team that was dominating their league for 3 consecutive years and won the CL with a lot of luck while displaying one of the worst performance I have ever seen in a great competition.
He then went in Spain where he were constantly humiliated and convincingly beaten by Barcelona and decided to go back in his principle of playing dirty and negative football trying to constantly injury their opponent or causing troubles with other managers, creating unnecessary buzz to the point of being hated by his own fans, players and board!
He finally come back in England and won a league were every big team (City and United) were having some problems and Liverpool were suffering from missing Suarez! He then implode in his 3rd season after winning the league and left his team flirting with the relegation zone after causing too many damages that his successor is trying to correct this year.
He then come to United with an air of arrogance saying that he want to win everything and will not make any excuses about process or transition, he spent a tone of money in the summer by buying 4 great players and he claimed that he got all his targets and was satisfied with the board who gave him everything he wanted (don't forget that he spent a lot of his free time claiming that he was studying this United team before even being officially announced as the United manager); then after few months he started making excuses saying first that this team was broken, players were not good, LVG sold some good players (forgetting that he has the whole summer and a blank check to have anyone he wanted), moaning about fixtures this and that,.....
No, I am not denying his past achievements even if I have never been impressed by them ( it easy to win playing a defensive and negative style! Leicester, Porto, Greece and Portugal did it too, with some luck you can win something especially when you have more money to spend and rarely lasted more than 3 years to try to cement himself as the greatest by building different teams, as SAF did); what I am trying to say is that this is a new challenge for the 2 managers as all the lights are on them and ready to label them as finished or past it! They all have 2 years left in their actual contracts, so anything less than a major trophy will cement the argument that they can rightly been classified in the category of the "has been", "dinosaurs". Jose must prove us that last season was an anomaly and he still has the engine to deliver more, Pep must prove his doubters wrong and show that he can build his proper team and win with it and prove that he's one of the greatest ever and belong to the same category as SAF, Cruyff,....
Putting it this way, yes I can give some perspective on what I see as possible criticisms from his days at Barcelona
The main criticism I could make from his time at Barcelona after winning 6 cups in 2008-2009 was the signing of Chygrynskiy - how much Pep was directly responsible for scouting the player no one truly knows. However, Barcelona needed help in central defense with a gimpy Milito and aging Rafa. Rosell selling him the next season despite Pep wanting him to stay certainly added to Guardiola's list of reasons not to stay longterm
The Cesc saga/pursuit is less on Pep, for me, as Fabregas was a board obsession due to having him poached under their noses years earlier - to Pep's credit, he moved the player around to try and get the most out of him, often at the expense of Thiago or even Alexis but it wasn't to be. Tactically or in terms of will to win, Barca never were outplayed under Guardiola
I did not follow him closely enough in Germany or here at City to weigh in on possible criticism - the media hyped ones aren't even worthy of being commented on, IMO
Only other possible criticism I could think of doesn't relate to his football or tenure as a coach but whatever happened between him & Tito during his cancer treatments - there was some kind of falling out between the two or perhaps only a misunderstanding. I suspect if Pep has regrets then it's that Tito was let down due to not seeing one another in NYC because I don't doubt how much they mean to one another
Far enough. you se how we can have a nice convo.
BTW I love how @LoveFootball says he's not questioning Jose's achievements than does his all to do it in his post.
So it begins by not even mentioning his job at Porto, the only club together with Ajax to have won a Champions League in the new format outside of the big 4 countrie$.
And let's ignore his job at Leiria, giving them the best place in the history of the club and doing usual stuff for minnows like beating Benfica at Luz 2-0.
José, the only manager in the world with a big bill waving at him.
He did not only get money and wasted it, he won and set the record of highest points in the league.
And did it twice, ignoring his minor silverware.
In Champions he should have won 1 here, was close but didn't.
2 leagues with Inter is not impressive in that era I agree, but he didn't end there, but he won a CL with Inter, a club not used at all at winning in the modern history. Also before this they only won the CL 50 years ago or so.
Also José won the only treble in italian football history. And he had to sell his best player (Ibrahimovic) to get the money to buy what he needed.
Can you explain why winning against one of the best teams of all time 3-1 at home and then with 10 men making them completely harmless in the return leg, with Barça only scoring in an offside near the end? Worst?
Who was the crazy guy that decided to move to Barças' yard at their zenith? It was Mourinho, he always wants it easy.
Real was eliminated in the first round of knockouts in the 6 years before.
So he gets there and loses the first game against Barça 5-0. Terrible!
Except that against this team he managed to turn the tables and not only win silverware (including 1 league with the record of points and scored goals - imagine if he wasn't a defensive jabba) but also making Barça rarely winning against Real, I mean, even against Real subs.
He went to 3 CL semifinals, barely eliminated in 2 of them, but still a huge improvement from the previous years.
I agree he should have won 1 CL here too.
The team imploded in the last year and he also has responsability, but in Real I am sympathetic of managers for obvious reasons...
And finally after all this time in his first-second year at Chelsea he didn't win any silverware! Surely he is an horrible manager.
With Demba Ba, Fernando Borres and declining Etoo up ahead, with no Matic in the CL, he managed to reach the semis.
Minor thing: In the league he defeated the 2 teams above him twice (City and Liverpool).
Could have done better in the end of the season but was his first year and was an improvement from previous seasons.
Second year - champion.
Oh wait but wasn't City the rich one now?
Whatever, also another minor silverware.
Failed big in the CL he should have done more.
Third year, terrible everyone knows that.
Culprit? He is the major one of course, but those players really underperformed with some exceptions (Willian), including some that are champions this year against performing well.
This is the same Man United that is crap in the last 3 years.
Yes he has time to plan the season but do you say he should have spend 500 M€ to fix everything? That's what you criticised about Chelsea.
His transfers have been spot on.
How to say this - in Porto we have better midfield and attacking subs that Man United, and we aren't even great these last years. Some of our starting 11 players would even walk into Man Utd 11 easily (Danilo, Brahimi, Alex Telles).
Also it can't be ignored Man Utd is having severe injury problems in key players in the last month(s).
The only manager to have won all the silverware in England, Spain and Italy (also Portugal), also 2 CLs with outsiders and dozens of semis.
If only he was "great" like creating a system that only works with the right players. He is just terrible with his adaptability and does it easy with the negative football like... erm... those 4 examples you picked, excluding of course all the other champions you've just ignored.
José won the EPL league 2 years ago, really prehistoric. Man Utd must attack the only good managers in the world - Conte, Allegri, Jardim, Ancelotti, Zidane (?). The rest are dinosaurs.
Question, in order for Mourinho to impress you, what should he do?
And let's ignore his job at Leiria, giving them the best place in the history of the club and doing usual stuff for minnows like beating Benfica at Luz 2-0.
José, the only manager in the world with a big bill waving at him.
He did not only get money and wasted it, he won and set the record of highest points in the league.
And did it twice, ignoring his minor silverware.
In Champions he should have won 1 here, was close but didn't.
2 leagues with Inter is not impressive in that era I agree, but he didn't end there, but he won a CL with Inter, a club not used at all at winning in the modern history. Also before this they only won the CL 50 years ago or so.
Also José won the only treble in italian football history. And he had to sell his best player (Ibrahimovic) to get the money to buy what he needed.
Can you explain why winning against one of the best teams of all time 3-1 at home and then with 10 men making them completely harmless in the return leg, with Barça only scoring in an offside near the end? Worst?
Who was the crazy guy that decided to move to Barças' yard at their zenith? It was Mourinho, he always wants it easy.
Real was eliminated in the first round of knockouts in the 6 years before.
So he gets there and loses the first game against Barça 5-0. Terrible!
Except that against this team he managed to turn the tables and not only win silverware (including 1 league with the record of points and scored goals - imagine if he wasn't a defensive jabba) but also making Barça rarely winning against Real, I mean, even against Real subs.
He went to 3 CL semifinals, barely eliminated in 2 of them, but still a huge improvement from the previous years.
I agree he should have won 1 CL here too.
The team imploded in the last year and he also has responsability, but in Real I am sympathetic of managers for obvious reasons...
And finally after all this time in his first-second year at Chelsea he didn't win any silverware! Surely he is an horrible manager.
With Demba Ba, Fernando Borres and declining Etoo up ahead, with no Matic in the CL, he managed to reach the semis.
Minor thing: In the league he defeated the 2 teams above him twice (City and Liverpool).
Could have done better in the end of the season but was his first year and was an improvement from previous seasons.
Second year - champion.
Oh wait but wasn't City the rich one now?
Whatever, also another minor silverware.
Failed big in the CL he should have done more.
Third year, terrible everyone knows that.
Culprit? He is the major one of course, but those players really underperformed with some exceptions (Willian), including some that are champions this year against performing well.
This is the same Man United that is crap in the last 3 years.
Yes he has time to plan the season but do you say he should have spend 500 M€ to fix everything? That's what you criticised about Chelsea.
His transfers have been spot on.
How to say this - in Porto we have better midfield and attacking subs that Man United, and we aren't even great these last years. Some of our starting 11 players would even walk into Man Utd 11 easily (Danilo, Brahimi, Alex Telles).
Also it can't be ignored Man Utd is having severe injury problems in key players in the last month(s).
The only manager to have won all the silverware in England, Spain and Italy (also Portugal), also 2 CLs with outsiders and dozens of semis.
If only he was "great" like creating a system that only works with the right players. He is just terrible with his adaptability and does it easy with the negative football like... erm... those 4 examples you picked, excluding of course all the other champions you've just ignored.
José won the EPL league 2 years ago, really prehistoric. Man Utd must attack the only good managers in the world - Conte, Allegri, Jardim, Ancelotti, Zidane (?). The rest are dinosaurs.
Question, in order for Mourinho to impress you, what should he do?
Danilo behind Pogba and Herrera would be quite tasty!
Agreed
It seems some don't know how Jose completely changed the Inter side he managed and converted them from a domestic team to a European one.
Just one look please on his transfers he did in the treple season :
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/inter/transfers/verein/46/saison_id/2009
Surprised ? Eto'o, Milito, Mota, Lucio and Sneijder - the main core of the treple winning team - have all joined the team this season.
Just one look please on his transfers he did in the treple season :
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/inter/transfers/verein/46/saison_id/2009
Surprised ? Eto'o, Milito, Mota, Lucio and Sneijder - the main core of the treple winning team - have all joined the team this season.
Well that's some honesty I must admit.
Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola says he would have been sacked by former clubs Barcelona and Bayern Munich if he had ended a season without a trophy.
City have failed to win any silverware in Guardiola's debut season, and are not yet guaranteed a top-four Premier League finish, with two games to play.
Guardiola also saw his side lose in the Champions League last 16, FA Cup semi-finals and League Cup fourth round.
"In my situation at a big club, I'm sacked. I'm out," said the Catalan.
"If it is Barcelona and Bayern you don't win and you are out. Here I have a second chance and I will try to do it better next season."
City have failed to win any silverware in Guardiola's debut season, and are not yet guaranteed a top-four Premier League finish, with two games to play.
Guardiola also saw his side lose in the Champions League last 16, FA Cup semi-finals and League Cup fourth round.
"In my situation at a big club, I'm sacked. I'm out," said the Catalan.
"If it is Barcelona and Bayern you don't win and you are out. Here I have a second chance and I will try to do it better next season."
He's clearly a rag.
Pep Ragdiola.
At least he's honest.
He's right though, imagine if it was Pellegrini.
Big season ahead for him (and summer).
He's right though, imagine if it was Pellegrini.
Big season ahead for him (and summer).
We beat them to Aurier and Mendy and they go for Semedo and Alex Sandro, and so on and so forth. i agree with you and @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber . They play gorgeous football at times and they have the luxury of having their attacking players in-place. I'm sure there'll be rumors about Kun, but having that attacking core is a significant advantage they enjoy over us.
His reputation and hype has definitely bought him an extra year. It's probably been City's worst season recently in terms of what they have won (nothing) and improvement (or lack thereof) and that's after massive investment. I suspect next season they may win a cup and with the right draw perhaps go a round further in Europe, but I think it's going to be a tall order for him to deliver the league next season.
Unless he resigns or has an absolutely dreadful year, would he be gone after another trophyless season next year? Txiki's waited forever to get him...just feels like he'd be extra patient with him regardless
If Pep fails to deliver a title next year, Txiki will have a hard time saving his own arse. Txiki has bought some expensive flops like Bonny in recent past and failure for Pep to deliver after all the hype and money will put more pressure back on himself.
If they win nothing significant next season, Pep won't handle the pressure and will run away. I'm sure of it.
Could be. A second placed finish against a genuinely strong title winning team might get him one more year, especially if he does quite well in the CL, but 3rd/4th and no cups might see him gone. Finishing outside the CL would make it a definite. Especially considering it'd be City's fourth year without a title...and without a credible challenge, either.
This seems more likely to me than City sacking him - they know they'll never get anyone bigger or better despite their endless supply of money, but he might decide he can't hack it and walk on his own accord.
Perhaps the PSG or Juve job will open up next summer and that will be too easy a task to pass up.