I don't really think it's lack of his players that cost you either to be fair, as others have pointed out, he's just naive to go with such an attacking lineup and incredibly lightweight midfield into a game where you have two goals advantage. Especially when you know that your fullbacks are shit. (something he must've known prior to the season start as well, yet didn't address it at all)
Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"
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I don't really think it's lack of his players that cost you either to be fair, as others have pointed out, he's just naive to go with such an attacking lineup and incredibly lightweight midfield into a game where you have two goals advantage. Especially when you know that your fullbacks are shit. (something he must've known prior to the season start as well, yet didn't address it at all)
It's not that binary, PSG took a 4-0 lead to the Nou Camp, played behind the ball and got hammered. Monaco is incredibly potent so it's understandable why Pep decided to match their firepower. They got knocked out on away goals, so it's not like his strategy was totally naive. Fine margins and all that.
Sure, Monaco is no Barca though, apart from the obvious things they are still a pretty inexperienced side with youngish players who played without their best defender and, funny as may it sound, Falcao.
Yes it's true it's me yeah, I'm not laughing at them only because we are not better than Arsenal or Chitteh. Arsenal are better than us for 2/3 years now and we keep trolling them.
We can laugh at Guardiola's petulance, but to be honest they're more consistent than us. They possess players that produce week in week out in the league (Aguero, De Bruyne, Silva).
We're the 6th team in the league and we continually think that because we've history we're better. We're turning little by little into bitter deepers.
I just want us to be fair with our level and pragmatic with our current position.
We're 6th in the league and playing Rostov in Europa League. I'm absolutely not happy with this and not proud of what we're doing (in terms of points).
So yeah there are a lot of positives, but it's only a matter of perspective. From where we were in 2008/2009, we're absolutely rubbish. But from last year, yeah we're ok.
City won the league three years ago, finished second to Chelsea two seasons ago, went to Champs League semis last year when we were struggling against Wolfsburg and PSV or playing sh*t games at Feyenord or Fenerbahce this year.
I'm also for laughing at them because we always get satisfaction when we see our rival loosing (especially Pool). But I also want to be proud of my team, to leave emotions like we were used to in Europe and not getting satisfaction through any other team that beat a rival.
This year in the league we didn't had any great emotions (we lost to City and Chelsea, we drew twice against Pool and drew against Arsenal) we cannot be happy of that.
I will laugh at them all and troll them with everything when we'll beat City, when we'll be Chelsea, when Mourinho will blast Conte because we won etc, or even if we win the Europa League and seeing Pool or Arsenal out of the top 4
Porto 3-1.
Thing is as I said Pep teams often being the favorite for the tie, so for them to not to get an away goal (his tactic: moa midfielder) & gamble all in return leg while his team always prone to concede vs counter attack is where the problem lies. PSG couldn't get into quarter final until like 3 years ago. Couldn't win the league until Zlatan join. Yes underdog. Milan was not always the best team from Italy. They won the final in OT being viewed as weaker team to that Juventus side who more often than not dominated their league. Milan may not always having a tie where they're underdog. There is quite bunches of times over the latter year they were. SAF early year in European Cups was "naive" & often got done by the Italian big boys, Real Madrid, Bayern... Only in latter years with Milan decline, Bayern pre Heykences... Mourinho Chelsea was underdog to many host of old boy in CL. They got done by L'pool though in one case going to be the winner of the competition. Bayern is often than not Real Madrid's woe (Bayern general home form vs Spanish teams is very good). Real had a history of getting undone by Bayern over the years in European Cup (you can ask Bayern for this). What Ancelotti Real did to Pep Bayern is so extraordinary for that reason. Russian teams. Most of the teams try to control the result with the trip to Russia. You used stat without context. If anything you can use the other leg for this tie to bash Mourinho's Inter for letting CSKA all over them (2 away goal lead ) & they had to battle it out to win 4-2. Mourinho Chelsea second stint got done by 2 under dogs Atletico (who went on the win La Liga & very close to win the CL) & PSG with the latter tie they pretty much controlled the tie when getting 1 goal leading but bottled it. There you can bash that Mourinho teams as much as you like.
2-1 to Bayern is better than 1-0 to an inferior team who your team kept getting into same trap. I meant if you put a team out to control the game that well, even reduce your own attacking prowess to do so, why do you concede? Why don't you play to get an away goal? The home team who played on counter should have been feared as the disadvantage of playing the first leg home & pressure to get result before the away trip. Why do you more often than not give it to the home team?
Please don't try this bullish stuff. We can agree to disagree but I put out a perspective, you don't try to trap me with the United bias label.
But we didn't get smashed 4 or 5 nil in the first half and if we want to use that logic, City were equally dominant in the 2nd half and could've scored 4 or 5 ourselves. It was the classic "game of 2 halves" scenario.
In any case, while I thought we were very sloppy in the first half but were much better after the break, I think you're under-estimating Monaco here. They're a fantastic team and have surprised pretty much everyone this season. They're young and a little naive but actually learnt from the first leg, and once they went 3-1 up last night they saw out the game quite well. I'm disappointed that we gave up a 2 goal first leg lead but I'm not that surprised given the way they played in the first leg. I'd expect our players - and manager - to learn from this.
Yeah obviously, the 'ifs and buts', was using it as a refutal to the 'lucky not to have ended 2:2' scenario.
They were in the CL last year (knocked out Arsenal IIRC) so they aren't that inexperienced. Doesn't take that long to kick on, our 2008 winning team was 2 years removed from the squad that finished bottom of the group stage.
You wrote an entire paragraph trying to prove to me that Ancelotti, Mourinho and Ferguson were underdogs in their CL ties and could be forgiven for their slip-ups.
Nah, I'm good.
Fecking stupid way to set out his team last night.
The best form of defence is sometimes fecking defence.
The best form of defence is sometimes fecking defence.
So City were lucky not to be 4-0 down at HT and threw it away in the first leg.
Last season they played in Europa, and even if you look at that team it differs quite a bit from what we're seeing now. They're a young team on top of their inexperience. It's all fair fecks to the work they and Jardim have done but Pep's got no excuses for being so painfully outplayed in the second leg.
Age and experience are secondary if you have momentum on your side.
It's not like City are roaming around relegation zone in EPL though, they won their FA draw and won the first leg too.
Whatever... Anything floats your boat...
Edit: above for the part for our discussion. Now is for Monaco part: you showed your hand more saying Monaco ain't inexperienced. This same side was knocked out of CL in pre qualification round by Valencia who ended up with a dreadful season (reason they sold Martial)... Occasionally got into CL & knocked out serial CL knockout pushover Arsenal ain't changing that fact. Look who is biased! Hagreaves suggested City to opened their champagne when he saw the draw without checking Monaco form this season for a reason!
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I was talking about momentum within the match. Once Monaco got into the game they went with the flow and until half time they were as dominant as any European giant. Then they lost that flow after the break and suddenly they lost their calm and composure and looked half the team from 1st half.
If this happened to United people would praise the coach for reseting the match after the break, getting his player to forget the intimidating first half and say they were unlucky to go out to bad finishing and a free kick [driving the OTT reaction in the opposite direction]. Instead Pep is "obviously" a fraud and a moron.
Experience is important in that helping team to keep the momentum or at least don't let it slip into the opponent's hand.
The United pre 2008 was considered as "naive" & let the momentum & got their asses handed to them by the experienced big boys: Milan, Juventus, Bayern... for a reason, despite we may have period where we can blow any team apart. SAF for most part of his career was not considered in bracket of great European Cup coach for that reason. That tie losing to AC Milan in 2007 changed SAF's approach in Europe for good.
Edit: this game (even the first leg), Monaco got what they wanted, Jardim tweak the approach in second half & they were trying to play more pragmatically which is their weakness for this season & given City chance to got a better gripe in the game.
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That's not momentum, that's the manager not pushing the fullbacks etc forward anymore since they were ahead in the tie.
They didn't know how to protect a lead and sustain forward pressure. That comes with inexperience, not momentum or some magical Pep power switch
I don't think Pep is a fraud but City weren't unlucky to go out, they didn't play well enough over the 90 minutes to get the needed result. Plenty of United fans have lambasted our poor finishing this season as signs that we aren't good enough, so I don't know where you've gotten the idea of us calling our team perennially unlucky.
If a United manager fielded a thin midfield and poor defensively organised team against a side which scores 2 or more goals in over 90% of their home games this season, I'd be feckin livid.
It's a daft to be so naieve, regardless of what manager we are talking about.
City has their one of the most decorated coach in their club history, who also went furthest in CL up to day (semi final losing to eventual winner!), while we're going through dark age. Like I said our best player for 3 consecutive year was our GK. The other best players have been declining/ already turned shite; in some cases couldn't be moved for a while now. City as I said have a more consistent system while we keep changing the whole identity through mismanagement. Our rebuild job is bigger as it carries the rebuild of the foundation.
Under LVG, we go into game with uncertainty of even for a draw. Now drawing is an upset. The standing without context is useless. If Arsenal finished 4th, wouldn't they consider this season worse than last where they ended up 2nd with the title was there for taking?! The competitiveness between 2-6 has been much tougher this season. I can bet my house that in case LVG was still our manager, we were mile behind with the top 4 group at this point. LVG's team had stagnated for awhile & on the way to regress with how man management backfired.
That sounds more opportunist than actual winner. Winner hold their own even in crisis & dominate other when they're on high ground. Did SAF ever shut up about other team, ref... during 2004-2006 when he couldn't win the league.Yeah, this happened after we went out against Madrid. Very few people blamed SAF for not shutting up shop (as if that would have magically changed things)
Ah alright, the momentum within the match, thought we were talking about their overall form.
I think that with Pep it's not really about the momentum but something that most people seem to point to, which is the initial team selection and tactics for this match with a two goal lead from the start. This is where he's lost the match for me.
I do not agree with this. As totaalvoetbal explained earlier Jardim's tactics were spot on in the first half but in the second exactly Pep was the one who changed the way his team play and changed the game as a whole. Aguero's bad finishing costed City's qualification for the next round.cyberman said:
Having seen the highlights, that seems to be it. He missed from 1 cutbacks and a 1v1.
In terms of overall play, both teams had 2 dominant halves each over the 2 legs, so the result isn't unfair, but City were probably more wasteful (even counting the missed penalty).
First of all, I think this is a top post which is genuinely refreshing especially when it comes to criticizing Guardiola and his coaching techniques. I might have come across presumptuous in my initial post but I think if you skim through the "analysis" on this forum and most of the national papers, you will understand how tiresome the over simplified categorisation people take to these subjects can get.
Anyway, I can't really disagree with any of the points you make. Guardiola indeed believes very much in a certain approach or mindset if you will. He is actually flexible in how he deploys it. For example, after Barcelona, he experimented extensively with formations, used long balls, diagonal balls to beat the first line of pressure and go more direct, used wingers who hug the touchline more and saw the merits of a traditional centre forward in the mould of Lewandowksi. One can argue also that he has been playing on the counter more often at City than he ever did before. The narrative obviously is that since we have never seen his teams defend for their lives in those heroic defensive displays the English media loves so much, is that he does not have a 'plan B'. As I said, he has an approach that never changes which is to play on the front foot, be pro active and force the opponent to react. He thinks the best form of defending is to not allow the opponent anywhere near your goal as opposed to actually defending your goal. In theory this is actually perfect but as you rightly point out, it is extremely difficult to pull off, maybe THE most difficult thing to pull off in football.
Before this season started, I thought with Klopp, Mourinho, Conte, Wenger and Pochettino, the most interesting appointment was Guardiola's. That is not because he was the best but because his approach is genuinely radical. At least as radical as it gets nowadays. Observing to which extent will he be able to apply his ideas is therefore the most fascinating story from a coaching point of view. This is especially the case after Louis van Gaal who shares a lot of similarities with Pep's principles. The questions about the PL's insularity in terms of style and aesthetics were also something very interesting to evaluate when looking at Guardiola's work here. So far, I think the jury is still out. He is finding it indeed very difficult and City have been very clumsy throughout this season and if I am being honest and had to bet my house on it, I don't think he will produce anything close to Bayern over here, let alone Barcelona.
There is something however that I personally find inspiring in the sheer ambition and single mindedness he has. In every field I can think of, I am interested in those who want to do it differently to the point of obsession. I think those are the people that instigate the greatest changes and revolutionise their field. They might fail, and more often than not, they do but there is something genuinely fascinating in seeing them try. That is why I really hate about what seems to be an over desperate attempt to shut those creative types down. I can hear the howls "who do you think you are? that's how we do things here, stop being so pretentious". I am just thinking where is the fun in that? In doing things the same way over and over? For that alone, I find it hard to criticize him, I probably would feel different if I was a City supporter as at some point, I would wear my fan hat on but so far, I just want to see to which extent will he be able to achieve what he wants to achieve.
Sorry, but judging the game through highlight is very wrong. Monaco was dangerous enough that they could have won the tie even at Etihad. Monaco after pulled ahead in both games, felt settled & used their weak point (pragmatic approach, weak defense) to see out game & gave City the chance to get back into it both games. If Monaco going full throttle whole games both games, I could have seen them won both with 3 goal margin each. They're that scary attacking wise vs how terrible City defense is.
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Why I struggle to take pleasure in their loss. They're still a better team than us with all their problems. In fact, it makes me more depressed.
All good but where would we be if we couldn't laugh at our rivals misfortune. Sure, it's better to laugh at them when we're a force but I laugh nevertheless.
We should be in a better position and I'm sure we will be and the future is bright.
Playing 3 fullbacks with error-prone Stones in defense and then playing 5 attacking players with only Fernandinho to shield them seems like an extremely risky move. I don't think even Barcelona or Bayern would've pulled that off. They have one of the most talented group of attacking midfielders and forwards in the world but the side really needs some balance.
Where can you find a winger like that!
Last season he played lahm-kimmich-alaba-bernat in turin against juventus. That's 3 FB and a CM. Second leg, he replaced Bernat with Benatia. 2 FB, 1 CM, 1 CB
He got away with it, just barely
I am starting to repeat myself but why people still wonder how Pep is setting his line up?! Its all about the system. It really doesnt matter if there is even one real defender in the line up if all players are correct in their positions, creating superiority in all areas on the pitch incl defence. Numeric superiority is the most important, but also positional and qualitative. That is the core of Pep's principles and that is what he demands no matter where he is coaching. Of course he must adapt this basic idea to the quality and strengths of his players. Thats why he used the middle as the main force at Barca, the wings at Bayern (more vertical approach) and now (very ambitiously) the pace of City's forwards to create superiority and to move the opponent.
Saint Pep being found out like most predicted. He had probably the best set of players ever at Barca and you can't judge his league wins at Bayern because my gran could manage them to victory in the Bundlesliga.
He spectacularly failed in Europe with Bayern because he wasn't playing the likes of FC Bayern-bought-their-best-players every fixture.
City look worse now than under MP and their defence is a shambles.
Loving it.
He spectacularly failed in Europe with Bayern because he wasn't playing the likes of FC Bayern-bought-their-best-players every fixture.
City look worse now than under MP and their defence is a shambles.
Loving it.
Saying Pep spectacularly failed in Europe with Bayern is like saying Jose spectacularly failed in Europe with Real. gross exaggeration.
...Mourinho failed in europe with us actually...a lot of us have not forgiven him the second leg against bayern
That said, there's failure and then there's capital F-Failure. Neither guardiola at bayern nor mou with us Failed, so to speak
Yeah but it's a good rabble rousing cry isn't it?
With 4-0 lead going to nou camp, it's very logical to play defensive, i dont think any manager would play differently and rightly so.
Who could have foreseen a 3 minutes collapse to be fair.
Not against Barcelona.
I never expected him to walk every competition going like the City fans did. People said this will be a shock to him, managing in a league where his side aren't in a 2 horse race year in, year out.
They were right. I think this season is a failure if they win nothing, and he must be seen as a failure for the first year. I am not convinced theyll win it next year either as he has no plan B
They were right. I think this season is a failure if they win nothing, and he must be seen as a failure for the first year. I am not convinced theyll win it next year either as he has no plan B
He was responding to Peanut Bitter who isn't exactly one to formulate constructive posts about City. We could win the league by 20 points next season with United languishing in 6th and he'd still deem Guardiola's tenure at City a complete and utter failure