Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"

ti vu said:
Not so. Both would be judged on their season but with different parameters as:

Pep had ground work laid by his friends. The style from last regime is not far of from what Pep wanted. Continue with bad signings who for one reason or another couldn't contribute, or right out liability

Mourinho needed to change the whole identity from a team playing possession, having GK being consecutive PoTY. Couldn't create chance to create enough chance to win (still need to improve goal scoring). Signings were not fit for the team, now become under Mourinho promising by showing sign of improving the squad but still not reach full potential. Squad still has problem. Still bottle in game that break the team into top 4.
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I really feel excuses are being made for Jose. What about the fact that Jose has a lot of experience in the premier league and has won the league thrice already? Pep has had no experience. This used to always be mentioned as a big advantage. Why is this no longer mentioned as a huge advantage for Mourinho?

With all the money spent by Mourinho, his experience in the league and the players available to him, why are excuses given as to why he may not make Top 4? Don't you think your standards have dropped alarmingly low for a club of United's stature? What is your personal goal for next season? To challenge for the league or finish top 4?

I don't get it to be honest. Actually I have my own view.

I think Jose's performance in the league for Manchester Utd has not been good but he should stay next season so I agree with most of you. However, I really think the club's expectations have dropped dramatically and it will become a problem in future. I wish I could talk more but I am still a newbie and have only more post for the day. I am not liked enough yet
 
Gentleman Jim said:
City are not linked with any mega bucks signings this summer ATM. Doubt we'll be lashing out Pogba, deMaria or Griezmann money on one player.
There is no interest in assembling a team of Galacticos but we will pay what it takes to get the best players we need to play to Pep's style. 3 or 4 players in the 20-40m range are more likely.
We have some fine players in the academy but unfortunately they mostly duplicate the positions that we are already strong at. May save us a packet in a year or two though when the likes of Silva and Fernandinho are ready to be replaced.
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City may not need to spend big on one player, but they seem to need to spend big on numbers of players. GK is back to square 1. The whole defense. CM area with Gundogan's injury record. Forward in case Aguero leaving. Even though it's not a huge sum, but I think it would be 30-40m+ per player here with how Eglish market works with some dross going around 30mil. So easily would cost up to 200mil

Logical Fan said:
I really feel excuses are being made for Jose. What about the fact that Jose has a lot of experience in the premier league and has won the league thrice already? Pep has had no experience. This used to always be mentioned as a big advantage. Why is this no longer mentioned as a huge advantage for Mourinho?

With all the money spent by Mourinho, his experience in the league and the players available to him, why are excuses given as to why he may not make Top 4? Don't you think your standards have dropped alarmingly low for a club of United's stature? What is your personal goal for next season? To challenge for the league or finish top 4?

I don't get it to be honest. Actually I have my own view.

I think Jose's performance in the league for Manchester Utd has not been good but he should stay next season so I with most of you. However, I really think the club's expectations have dropped dramatically and it will become a problem in future. I wish I could talk more but I am still a newbie and have only more post for the day. I am not liked enough yet
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Experience of the manager is one thing. The squad is another thing. Wenger won PL thrice too, but couldn't build another team & he had all the time. Squad building is entire different thing. It takes time & it can be unpredictable. SAF went 3 year PL barren mid 2000s during transition. While Mourinho with a good squad won it first try (& defended it successfully).

We made some very wrong move with Moyes appointment & LVG's philosophy that set us back for year. Yes. We're not the same team when SAF retired. Different standard & we're slowly raising under Mourinho.

We would look to challenge next season. That's the point of this season patience. We have been doing a cleaning up & laying foundation job for most part this season. We could have been challenging if not for Chelsea being too far away. We're still pretty much within the mix with the rest who fought for other top 4 finish.

The criticism on Pep is not why they ain't winning/ challenging harder, but how little to none improvement/ same standard they were from Pellegrini's regime despite had the ground work done for Pep for years & continuing their bad transfer policy: signing players who either liability or couldn't contribute.
 
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roonster09 said:
I think City will spend big this summer. They need few players to replace the older players and also players who aren't good. The way Pep wants to play every player should be good on the ball and they won't come cheap unless City have improved their scouting significantly.
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We get bargains, we overpay sometimes, just like everyone else.
What many don't get is that it takes a certain type of player to thrive at City and just buying the highest rated available player is not what we do.
As I said previously we have some cracking players in the youth teams to phase in when they are ready but we will need to buy right away to sort the defence out.
 
Kevin said:
Far too early my eager little friend. Far too early. Mourinho isnt pulling up trees either unfortunately, he is doing worse with the same amount of money to spend after respective squads finished on the same amount of points last season, with the difference that our manager has more experience in this league whereas Pep is in his first season... it seems the caf was very scared of him as the misplaced euphorism on here is grand for no particular reason... yet.
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Who brought Mourinho into this conversation in the Pep thread?

You were waxing lyrical after they beat Barca, been nicely quiet since last night (for quite a while actually), instead focusing your opinions on Mbappe.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
We get bargains, we overpay sometimes, just like everyone else.
What many don't get is that it takes a certain type of player to thrive at City and just buying the highest rated available player is not what we do.
As I said previously we have some cracking players in the youth teams to phase in when they are ready but we will need to buy right away to sort the defence out.
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Any examples? I'm asking as City have signed few youngsters but their main signings are players who are highly rated and had very good seasons.

2016-17:
Sane, Stones, Jesus, Gundogan were all highly rated

2015-16:
De Bruyne, Sterling, Otamendi were highly rated

Also not sure on bargains. Top teams in England barely get bargains except Spurs and Chelsea with Kante.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
A lot of opinions on here, just a few thoughts.

His biggest gaffe this season is undoubtedly going with the group of FB's he has done. I can only think that he wanted another year before deciding whether to promote from within (Maffeo may make it, Angelino probably won't for us) rather than spend a wedge on outsiders.
Kolarov will probably stay another year or two given his versatility but Clichy, Sagna and Zab will surely be replaced.

The long term injuries to players of the quality of Gundogan and Gabriel were big blows but I suppose that's what a squad is for.

Not using Yaya seemed strange but pacy, athletic teams like Monaco have seemed to bypass him lately. Maybe Pep is picking and choosing games for him?
De Bruyne was awful in the first half last night but when dropped back in the second was much more effective.

Disappointing to go out of the tournament but realistically we had no claims to actually win it so this softens the blow.

All attention now to cementing our Top 4 place with some tough games ahead and also taking the opportunity to finish the season with a Trophy.

Then the serious business of remodelling the squad for a good run at top honours next season.
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I don't think City should be too down at going out at this stage this season tbh, just I bet people didn't expect it to be against Monaco back in December when the draw was made.

You're correct about the FB's, I'm surprised Pep didn't go into the market but I'm sure he will this summer.

Making top 4 shouldn't be a problem for City, win the FA Cup, finish 2nd, sign a GK, FB's, CB and a CM and there should be a lot of optimism going into the second season.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
With 3 of the back four just not good enough, they may not have choice
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With that quite an obvious fact he still decided to go incredibly attacking lineup giving them very little to no protection.

Honestly, this talk from the Pep's cult that originated from his Barcelona and Bayern times (not talking about you, Chief) about how the EPL will have to adapt to Pep and all that other bullshit, it's glorious watching what's happening in moments like this.
 
Pep likes some strange formations and usually puts them just for the sake of it. I guess we fail to see wider picture him being a revolutionary and all.
There was no reason for him to come out with such an open lineup yesterday.
 
VanGaalEra said:
Who brought Mourinho into this conversation in the Pep thread?

You were waxing lyrical after they beat Barca, been nicely quiet since last night (for quite a while actually), instead focusing your opinions on Mbappe.
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You have been very upset with my past post(s) I can see, although you will of course deny this heh heh.

I was waxing lyrical and I still have enough time to be right is the point here isn't it? And the over-eagerness and fright of mentioning and comparing pep with other managers including Mourinho seems relevant, yes EVEN in a PEP THREAD [high pitched michael myers victim scream of shock horror]. We have to discuss his performances and it's not weird to compare and measure that to standards other more experienced PL managers have set before him correct? I can understand that would lead to complications for us United fans' mirth toward Pep's 'failures', seeing as we seem happy enough about having Mourinho although he has failed result wise for two seasons in PL and has done worse than fraud Pep Guardiola who is in his first season... I fully understand you wish to set these strict boundaries of no discussions on Mourinho during this particular argument yes, heh heh...

Let us wait and I hope too that he will fail.
 
Pep will be judged about how he is doing the next years at city. More and more people argue that every coach would have been succesfull with players like Xavi, Messi, Pyuol, Iniesta,... He also had a team of fantastic players in Munich. But it's still to early to judge his job at City.

All I can say now is that I am happy about yesterday's "Pepxit" from the CL.
 
Jose first season in premier league won league cup and the premier league, he was new then and competing with wenger and fergie.

Jose first season with utd wins league cup and still has a chance of a 2nd trophy which will also mean champions league.

Klopp 1st season nothing, klopp 2nd season nothing.
pep first season nothing, possible champions league.

Jose 1-0 Pep.
 
Too many arguments and counter. How many here think that Pep will be a PL title contender and a CL semi-finalist next season with some signings in summer?
 
carvajal said:
You are right but a manager has to be able to improve the players(Simeone did it in the beginning at Atlético).Not all the good defensive lines are based on quality,but organization.
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Simeone is the best example. When he signed Atletico Madrid conceded 27 goals in 16 games and then in 22 games they conceded only 19 goals. Next season with barely any defensive signings Atletico Madrid had the best defensive record in the league.
 
singhters said:
Jose first season in premier league won league cup and the premier league, he was new then and competing with wenger and fergie.

Jose first season with utd wins league cup and still has a chance of a 2nd trophy which will also mean champions league.

Klopp 1st season nothing, klopp 2nd season nothing.
pep first season nothing, possible champions league.

Jose 1-0 Pep.
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Pep's had better material for sure, but the final count should be made when the season is over. 2nd place for Pep and Champions League is better than a league cup and nothing.. They could win the FA cup still too
 
Gentleman Jim said:
We get bargains, we overpay sometimes, just like everyone else.
What many don't get is that it takes a certain type of player to thrive at City and just buying the highest rated available player is not what we do.
As I said previously we have some cracking players in the youth teams to phase in when they are ready but we will need to buy right away to sort the defence out.
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Priceless
 
Kevin said:
You have been very upset with my past post(s) I can see, although you will of course deny this heh heh.

I was waxing lyrical and I still have enough time to be right is the point here isn't it? And the over-eagerness and fright of mentioning and comparing pep with other managers including Mourinho seems relevant, yes EVEN in a PEP THREAD [high pitched michael myers victim scream of shock horror]. We have to discuss his performances and it's not weird to compare and measure that to standards other more experienced PL managers have set before him correct? I can understand that would lead to complications for us United fans' mirth toward Pep's 'failures', seeing as we seem happy enough about having Mourinho although he has failed result wise for two seasons in PL and has done worse than fraud Pep Guardiola who is in his first season... I fully understand you wish to set these strict boundaries of no discussions on Mourinho during this particular argument yes, heh heh...

Let us wait and I hope too that he will fail.
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Upset lol.

So is it now a case of wait and see with Pep, but in November when you were very excited, it wasn't a case of wait and see? Hmm :wenger:
 
This is my last post for the day unfortunately as per the Redcafe rules…………..unless ofcourse I get a few likes hint hint :)


Anyway, perhaps the below illustration can hopefully explain where I see all this going if United is not careful. Let’s look at United post-Fergie and apparent ambitions either by fans or coaches from my understanding

2013/2014 – Moyes first season. Ambition was maybe Top 3 as he had to get used to club etc. Finished 7th and was sacked

2014/2015 – LVG first season. Ambition was to get to Top 4 and challenge for league the next season. Top 4 achieved

2015/2016 – LVG second season. Not too sure what was the general expectation but finished 5th and was sacked

2016/2017 – Jose first season. Ambition is Top 4 I’m presuming. Ambition may be achieved but certainly no title challenge to speak of

2017/2018 – I’m assuming challenge for the league but I think most would be ok with 3rd or 4th place? i.e you wouldn’t sack him if he came 3rd or 4th

After this season, United would have gone 4 seasons without challenging for the league. Of these 4 seasons, only LVG’s second season was United expected to challenge for the league if even that. To me, this is Arsenal like


Below is now a hypothesis so bear with me:

If Jose doesn’t challenge for the league next season and United is ok with it, it would take it to 5 seasons. If Jose than leaves as he usually does, I am sure the next manager will be given time to “get things right” just like previous managers. Before you know it, the general goal over the last few seasons would have been to finish top 4 rather than win the league. Abit like Arsenal when Wenger would say he wanted his young players to mature before they start challenging

This is what I call the Arsenal effect. The fans/management/board will get used to not winning or challenging for the league and this will be accepted as the norm. This would be the worst possible scenario in my view.
 
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ti vu said:
You shouldn't educate us on United matter.

We had been going through major identity change with Mourinho from what LVG build. If anything, as explained, City had the ground work built for Pep for quite few years already. He came in adding some tweaking but still pretty Pellegrini' City level.
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Being a Manchester United fan has nothing to do with it, unless it gives you the power to see into alternate realities. In this reality Manchester City's last two finishes were 2nd and 4th (and several of their best players have been in various stages of decline over the past couple of seasons.) United's last finishes were 4th and 5th. Currently City's third and United's sixth.

Neither manager has had a great season by his standards (how many fans were hoping that this was where they'd be at the start of the year?) I don't have a horse in this race; it just annoys me when fans start shouting 'The sky's green!' 'Yes, the sky is green!' at one another.
 
carvajal said:
You are right but a manager has to be able to improve the players(Simeone did it in the beginning at Atlético).Not all the good defensive lines are based on quality,but organization.
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The problem he has though is all the under performers are winding down their careers and are past improvement point. Personally I believe he took a wise risk trying them out. Now Zabaleta, Kolarov, Kompany (possibly), Sagna and Clichy can all leave with minimal fuss.
Leaving him room to get the players he really needs. Its easy to see City and think Pep isn't organising them well. Yet his problem is his team defending is so system Dependant. Yet his system requires specific types of players. Without them his teams can end up ran rugged at the back
 
VanGaalEra said:
Upset lol.

So is it now a case of wait and see with Pep, but in November when you were very excited, it wasn't a case of wait and see? Hmm :wenger:
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I was excited at that very moment yes but I know very well that things can change wuickly and a season is long in football. I have never said right there and then that he won't have to overcome obstacles so I don't know how you arrived to that conclusion. People seem to be overeager to prove me wrong, even people I seem to have zero beef with and quite like on most occasions. Sigh, this is the life of someone who thinks for himself and doesn't go meeeehhhhhh.

Now let me search that Renato Sanchez thread and see if the former caf darling still is this next generation's super midfielder from last season.
 
Mister_Stubbs said:
I'm saying that people in the media are very quick to judge Jose first season, despite having a tougher job to begin with but seem, up until maybe now reluctant to judge Pep and almost no one mentions the large sums of money they spent during the summer.

The season isn't over yet, we still have every chance of finishing top four so can't really judge until 38 games have been played but in short, City are worse off this season than they were this time last year despite having the worlds supposedly greatest manager.
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So basically, your point is based on what media has to say about both managers but not on a bit of reasonable and logical thinking? Ok.

Look, I hope he fails there. But, we are kidding ourselves if we are making all the excuses for the worlds supposedly best manager, jose, while laughing at others for doing similar jobs.

But, football fans eh?
 
Kevin said:
I was excited at that very moment yes but I know very well that things can change wuickly and a season is long in football. I have never said right there and then that he won't have to overcome obstacles so I don't know how you arrived to that conclusion. People seem to be overeager to prove me wrong, even people I seem to have zero beef with and quite like on most occasions. Sigh, this is the life of someone who thinks for himself and doesn't go meeeehhhhhh.

Now let me search that Renato Sanchez thread and see if the former caf darling still is this next generation's super midfielder from last season.
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Haha I have no problem with you, I quite like your posts just wanted to see your opinions now as opposed to November, which strangely weren't forthcoming :)
 
roonster09 said:
Any examples? I'm asking as City have signed few youngsters but their main signings are players who are highly rated and had very good seasons.

2016-17:
Sane, Stones, Jesus, Gundogan were all highly rated

2015-16:
De Bruyne, Sterling, Otamendi were highly rated

Also not sure on bargains. Top teams in England barely get bargains except Spurs and Chelsea with Kante.
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Of course they were highly rated but not the flavour of the month "Best in the World" type guy that Real, Barca and now United throw world record fees at.
Sane, Gabriel and Gundogan were good value buys. The injury IG picked up was totally unrelated to any other he'd had before.

Many of our best bargains are not immediately for the first team. I could give you a few names of players who I fully expect to make a big impact in the next few years who are currently in the academy or out onloan if you like?
 
The United said:
So basically, your point is based on what media has to say about both managers but not on a bit of reasonable and logical thinking? Ok.

Look, I hope he fails there. But, we are kidding ourselves if we are making all the excuses for the worlds supposedly best manager, jose, while laughing at others for doing similar jobs.

But, football fans eh?
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The point is these people in the media, both ex players and journos are supposedly clued up as football people. I agree that as a football fan we are free to express our opinions, mine is that both Jose and Pep have thus far failed to deliver but when compared to starting positions, Pep seemingly had the advantage whereas Jose took over a side stuck in a transition period.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
City are not linked with any mega bucks signings this summer ATM. Doubt we'll be lashing out Pogba, deMaria or Griezmann money on one player.
There is no interest in assembling a team of Galacticos but we will pay what it takes to get the best players we need to play to Pep's style. 3 or 4 players in the 20-40m range are more likely.
We have some fine players in the academy but unfortunately they mostly duplicate the positions that we are already strong at. May save us a packet in a year or two though when the likes of Silva and Fernandinho are ready to be replaced.
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City spent £180m in the summer. I expect a similar outlay again, possibly even more. There will be inflation.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Of course they were highly rated but not the flavour of the month "Best in the World" type guy that Real, Barca and now United throw world record fees at.
Sane, Gabriel and Gundogan were good value buys. The injury IG picked up was totally unrelated to any other he'd had before.

Many of our best bargains are not immediately for the first team. I could give you a few names of players who I fully expect to make a big impact in the next few years who are currently in the academy or out onloan if you like?
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You mean players like Unal? If so no need. I checked them.

I was looking more for players for first team, players who can slot into the first team but didn't cost big money or highly rated when you guys signed.

I disagree with the 3 examples you gave as they were all very highly rated before City signed. Also apart from Pogba ManUtd haven't signed any "Best in the world" type players. Zlatan was more opportunistic signing.
 
VanGaalEra said:
Haha I have no problem with you, I quite like your posts just wanted to see your opinions now as opposed to November, which strangely weren't forthcoming :)
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You can have my opinion now and an analysis of my behaviour regarding pep so far: the belief that he will succeed here eventually is strong, a great start made me crow more about my belief earlier than was necessary, but purely because on the caf everyone is gunning for me for a short term laugh.

Being quiet about Guardiola's failures these past months has everything to do with him being shite in this period yes. When you are losing a BATTLE you don't scream injustice or whine, you take it quietly and wait for the war to be won before explaining patiently how right you were afterwards, when you have the status of being the winner. And anyway, my feelings for United will always be grander than the desire to be right unlike some other popular caf posters, so there is that. If you search well you can find me celebrating like a madman and laughing at Pep as well during times of his misery which led to confusion among some posters.

I have nothing to hide, forthcoming enough?
 
Mister_Stubbs said:
The point is these people in the media, both ex players and journos are supposedly clued up as football people. I agree that as a football fan we are free to express our opinions, mine is that both Jose and Pep have thus far failed to deliver but when compared to starting positions, Pep seemingly had the advantage whereas Jose took over a side stuck in a transition period.
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You know what is funny though?

You and I follow United and we only care and see about what other people supposed to say about us and think wow you guys are harsh on us! we are the victim! ABU bla bla all bs.

And guess what other fans think the same as well. Just look at other teams's forums, talk to their fans etc. Same shit, different teams's fans.

I am sure city fans would think how their squad was anything but ready for pep or any manager to be successful this season. Heck, many people here thought they had very aging and declining squad last season.

And, those are some of the reasons I don't really get on and talk shit about other teams in general like I know them.
 
Kevin said:
You can have my opinion now and an analysis of my behaviour regarding pep so far: the belief that he will succeed here eventually is strong, a great start made me crow more about my belief earlier than was necessary, but purely because on the caf everyone is gunning for me for a short term laugh.

Being quiet about Guardiola's failures these past months has everything to do with him being shite in this period yes. When you are losing a BATTLE you don't scream injustice or whine, you take it quietly and wait for the war to be won before explaining patiently how right you were afterwards, when you have the status of being the winner. And anyway, my feelings for United will always be grander than the desire to be right unlike some other popular caf posters, so there is that. If you search well you can find me celebrating like a madman and laughing at Pep as well during times of his misery which led to confusion among some posters.

I have nothing to hide, forthcoming enough?
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Haha, to be honest this is true.
 
The United said:
You know what is funny though?

You and I follow United and we only care and see about what other people supposed to say about us and think wow you guys are harsh on us! we are the victim! ABU bla bla all bs.

And guess what other fans think the same as well. Just look at other teams's forums, talk to their fans etc. Same shit, different teams's fans.

I am sure city fans would think how their squad was anything but ready for pep or any manager to be successful this season. Heck, many people here thought they had very aging and declining squad last season.
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Many posts was to praise City, how well they have planned for Pep to take over and worked for years on transfers all that.
 
Logical Fan said:
Below is now a hypothesis so bear with me:

If Jose doesn’t challenge for the league next season and United is ok with it, it would take it to 5 seasons. If Jose than leaves as he usually does, I am sure the next manager will be given time to “get things right” just like previous managers. Before you know it, the general goal over the last few seasons would have been to finish top 4 rather than win the league. Abit like Arsenal when Wenger would say he wanted his young players to mature before they start challenging

This is what I call the Arsenal effect. The fans/management/board will get used to not winning or challenging for the league and this will be accepted as the norm. This would be the worst possible scenario in my view.
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We will spend again in the summer, I think even if we don't make CL the ambition still has to be to mount a title challenge.

It's bad enough not challenging from a fan's point of view, but like you say - 5 seasons without a real title push would reflect so badly on the club, the sponsors may start thinking twice.

Unlike Arsenal though, that will be felt in the boardroom and the standards won't be allowed to slide in that manner. I don't think we can sustain the business side of things by just reaching top four, we need to be seen as winners.
 
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